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Premium Member Only caches are elitist!


smomofo

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I have been geocaching for about 8 months, but only became a Premium Member about 2 weeks ago. I shelled out a membership fee to only support the activity and keep the site running, not because of the extra features that would come with a Premium Membership.

 

After becoming a Premium Member I noticed a couple more caches in my area, then noticed that they weren't new, but for Premium Members only! I think these are a disgusting feature. I waited a week before I posted this, giving myself time to cool off and think about it more, but I still hate the fact that they exist on this site.

 

I have no problem with any of the other features offered to Premium Members that make geocaching easier/more convenient/more fun. But to find out that regular (unpaying) members are excluded from some Geocaches is terrible.

 

I have heard the argument that the site needs to make money, so they have to offer features that will attract people to paying to become a Premium Member. That may be true, but it is my feeling that this should be done other ways. They already offer many other features to Premium Members, so they should still have membership fees coming in, plus, there is advertising on the site. I'm sure the advertisers are paying well.

 

I also argue that unpaying members are not just "freeloaders". I have several regular member friends that have placed many caches. Placing a new cache is not free: between the cost of a container, logbook, pencil, and some trade items, one can easily spend $20 to put out a cache. This site/activity depends on people placing new caches continuously, so should not be excluding those people from finding them.

 

How upset would you be if you were a regular member that had just spent $20 putting a nice cache together, another $20 for gas to place it in a special spot that you would like others to see, but when you try to register it are told by a reviewer that your cache cannot be placed there because there is already one there? One that you are not allowed to participate in because you chose to spend your money placing a cache rather than forking it over to this site to join their "Premium Members" club.

 

Am I alone here?

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I guess I can see your point... sorta. But if you feel so strongly on the issue then do one of two things. 1) stop your PM payments or 2) Keep supporting the game with your PM, but simply don't hunt PMOCs.

 

One thing that does not make any sense to me is that you said you saw these *after* you became a PM. As far as I am aware, these caches are always visible on a list, you just can't reads the description. This seems a bit odd.

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A few past topics on the issue.

 

Premium member cache questions.

 

Deleting Logs of Premium Members -- is this allowed?

 

My best caches (best swag, best locations, best craftmanship) are set as "PMOCs." Conversely, when I hunt caches, I rarely see much difference between the quality of locations or swag, for either type cache. The best stocked caches i've found always require the maximum effort (usually five mile plus hikes).

 

Be forewarned that this topic always turns into a heated debate.

 

Should more caches be made members only?

 

Economics 101

 

Premium Membership Exclusivities

 

Member only caches and why I hate them

 

Caches for premium members only

 

Why have the premium membership?

 

Members only caches

 

Subscription Only Caches--grrrrrrrrrr!

 

Member Only Caches, Should I or shouldn't I?

 

Caches for Premium members only

 

Members only caches

 

"members only" caches rant

 

The First "no Members" Cache

 

Change Moc Suggestion, need only normal account to view

 

Northeast Premium Member Only Caches, What are your thoughts?

 

When To Hide A Premium Member Cache, What is the culture of Member Only cache

 

Members Only Cache Hides, Members Only Cache Hides

 

Members Only, Premium Member Cache

 

And from across the pond

Members Only Caches, Is there a point anymore ?

Edited by BlueDeuce
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How upset would you be if you were a regular member that had just spent $20 putting a nice cache together, another $20 for gas to place it in a special spot that you would like others to see, but when you try to register it are told by a reviewer that your cache cannot be placed there because there is already one there? One that you are not allowed to participate in because you chose to spend your money placing a cache rather than forking it over to this site to join their "Premium Members" club.

 

Am I alone here?

 

Not very upset.

 

What about if a puzzle was located there, or maybe the final of a difficult and tricky multi?

You might be able to 'buy your way' into getting the co-ordinates for those...or maybe not.

I'd say your issue is with the cache owner, not the site.

At least when you become a Premium Member, you get to see all the PM caches, no such luck with the puzzles and the multi-caches.

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I guess I can see your point... sorta. But if you feel so strongly on the issue then do one of two things. 1) stop your PM payments or 2) Keep supporting the game with your PM, but simply don't hunt PMOCs.

 

One thing that does not make any sense to me is that you said you saw these *after* you became a PM. As far as I am aware, these caches are always visible on a list, you just can't reads the description. This seems a bit odd.

 

I just checked with a friend who is a regular member and she cannot see the location of PMOC's on the map, but it is listed when she checks under the "List all caches from your home coordinates".

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Not very upset.

 

What about if a puzzle was located there, or maybe the final of a difficult and tricky multi?

You might be able to 'buy your way' into getting the co-ordinates for those...or maybe not.

I'd say your issue is with the cache owner, not the site.

At least when you become a Premium Member, you get to see all the PM caches, no such luck with the puzzles and the multi-caches.

 

You make a good point, but I still feel the same about PMOC's because of my other points.

Edited by smomofo
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I have a premium membership but also don't agree with the idea of premium caches.

 

The way that I have done this so far is to not search for or place premium caches.

 

This is a silent protest, but we all play the game different. I choose to do this, and other choose to place and find these caches.

 

My thought has always been that the more regular caches that are out there, the more chances that regular member have to get hooked and pay to get a premium membership and use the other benefits of PM.

 

The true reason for getting a PM is to support the sport/game/hobby we all love.

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How upset would you be if you were a regular member that had just spent $20 putting a nice cache together, another $20 for gas to place it in a special spot that you would like others to see, but when you try to register it are told by a reviewer that your cache cannot be placed there because there is already one there? One that you are not allowed to participate in because you chose to spend your money placing a cache rather than forking it over to this site to join their "Premium Members" club.

 

 

Probably not as upset as I'd be if I had spent $40 to place a cache, and some guy on his first geocaching hunt took it home with him because he didn't understand the rules.

 

I only have two PMOCs. One is unique and cannot be replaced. The other has a hint in it that reveals the proximity of my residence. I prefer to only have experienced cachers seek these two caches. Luckily, there are about 1500 more to be found in a five mile radius.

 

Of course, nothing guarantees that only experienced cachers will buy a membership, but it has been my observation that most people get a feel for what they are doing and determine if they like it or not, before plunking down the cash.

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When I became a premium member, I had only known about geocaching for literally 5 minutes and I knew I would be hooked and want to take it to the max. The PMOC's are just a bit of added incentive to help get people to contribute to the website. I can only imagine the bandwidth that this website sucks up with people all around the world checking caches, logging finds, and tracking bugs. There is a local PMOC that has a bit of extra special attention put into it and its also a $5.00 minimum trade. I really like that idea!

 

If you are so against PMOC's then I would suggest you dont seek those caches. It wouldn't be right for you to hate them and also claim them as a find.

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A few past topics on the issue.

 

Premium member cache questions.

 

Deleting Logs of Premium Members -- is this allowed?

 

My best caches (best swag, best locations, best craftmanship) are set as "PMOCs." Conversely, when I hunt caches, I rarely see much difference between the quality of locations or swag, for either type cache. The best stocked caches i've found always require the maximum effort (usually five mile plus hikes).

 

Be forewarned that this topic always turns into a heated debate.

 

Should more caches be made members only?

 

Economics 101

 

Premium Membership Exclusivities

 

Member only caches and why I hate them

 

Caches for premium members only

 

Why have the premium membership?

 

Members only caches

 

Subscription Only Caches--grrrrrrrrrr!

 

Member Only Caches, Should I or shouldn't I?

 

Caches for Premium members only

 

Members only caches

 

"members only" caches rant

 

The First "no Members" Cache

 

Change Moc Suggestion, need only normal account to view

 

Northeast Premium Member Only Caches, What are your thoughts?

 

When To Hide A Premium Member Cache, What is the culture of Member Only cache

 

Members Only Cache Hides, Members Only Cache Hides

 

Members Only, Premium Member Cache

 

And from across the pond

Members Only Caches, Is there a point anymore ?

 

Somewhere, one of those threads was started by a newb close to me, who found about 40% of the caches in his zip code were MOC's. There was no reason for this, it was pretty much a "because they could" sort of thing. Haven't heard anything from that newb, who logged less than 10 finds, in about a year. :)

 

Do they bother me? Not in the least bit. I even owned a couple, but have long since removed the restriction. They may or may not be elitist, but it sure makes for a great thread, doesn't it? :ph34r:

Edited by TheWhiteUrkel
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If you think PMO caches are elitist... wait until you run into a Platinum member only cache! Oh, boy, the stories I could tell... but am not allowed to... :)

 

They have the best swag though. :ph34r:

Sioneva, please immediately silence yourself, else you will get another one of those visits from the men in black suits, black shiny shoes, and dark sunglasses who never smile; you know, the ones whose car seems to vaguely resemble an old Lincoln Continental, but it seems somehow strangely different, and then you notice that the tires are floating two inches above the roadway, and you cannot read the license plate, for it is strangely blurred and fuzzy.

Edited by Vinny & Sue Team
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I can't believe there are country clubs around here that want me to pay to be a member. That is so elitist. I don't want to be stuck golfing only at the public courses with the rest of the poor people. It's just wrong!

 

To add insult to injury, I'm not able to send my kids to the private elitist schools around here either, because they want me to pay to be a member! Can you believe that?

 

Not everything in life is free. I commend the operators of this site to make this pretty much a free game to anybody who wants to play. By far the vast majority of caches are not members only (at least 99% in my area, but it probably varies elsewhere.)

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If you think PMO caches are elitist... wait until you run into a Platinum member only cache! Oh, boy, the stories I could tell... but am not allowed to... :)

 

They have the best swag though. :ph34r:

Sioneva, please immediately silence yourself, else you will get another one of those visits from the men in black suits, black shiny shoes, and dark sunglasses who never smile; you know, the ones whose car seems to vaguely resemble an old Lincoln Continental, but it seems somehow strangely different, and then you notice that the tires are floating two inches above the roadway, and you cannot read the license plate, for it is strangely blurred and fuzzy.

 

They have good cookies!

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Am I alone here?

No, there are some that don't like PM caches, but I think they have their place.

 

A friend hid a coin hotel. All the coins disappeared a week or so later, so he relocated the cache...they disappeared again a few days later. He relocated the cache and made it PM only. Cache has been in place for months and had no problems. Not sure if it was related, but it was coincidental.

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Let's see; you are outraged about a small benefit to the group of people without who this hobby wouldn't exist. That seems a bit elitist to me.

 

I have to disagree with this! The hobby started "free" on usenet. Then free on a bare bones website maintained by the finder of the first ever cache. There are two U.S. based alternative geocaching websites who have pledged to be forever free, and a third who has voluntary premium memberships. There are also several European alternative geocaching websites, but I'm not aware of their funding.

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I can't believe there are country clubs around here that want me to pay to be a member. That is so elitist. I don't want to be stuck golfing only at the public courses with the rest of the poor people. It's just wrong!

 

Hey now wait a minute. You cant use this as an example. First of all Im not familiar with any FREE golf courses in our area. Secondly the majority of courses now days require additional fees, in addition to the greens fees which arent all that cheap either, such as cart fees, because they dont allow hand pulled carts, or they dont allow walkers , which is kinda crazy because part of the golf thing was for the excercise.

 

So public courses arent for the poor, they are just for those of us who dont have more money than we know what to do with & want to golf so be kind to us poor beggers :)

 

Just trying to lighten the mood here a little so dont go nutso on me ok? :ph34r:

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Am I alone here?

Contrary to those who say you are alone on this issue you are not.

 

First, the MOC feature was or is a misguided feature to hide some caches from the general public. As I recall reading the forums--and it should all still be there--folks saw a need to hide cache listings. In the beginning, the quickest and easiest way to do this is check the member's data field to see if they were a paying member. It was figured only more dedicated and experienced cachers would be paying members.

 

Time and this very thread has told us otherwise. Folks in this very thread have said they pay up to support this site. It's not all about getting more powerful tools to ease pursuit of this hobby. Supporting this site has nothing to do with experience. Sure, it's doubtful a rank newbie, experimenter, or dabbler with pay up, but beyond that a payment to Jeremy et al. does not automatically make folks do the right thing in the field.

 

Here's an ironic aside: some folks consider the audit feature a good tool to catch maggots. The irony is a non-paying maggot can't see a cache page with an audit log and a paying maggot won't need to.

 

The MOC feature is a useful feature when one is trying to hide from public view a particularly sensitive cache. The failing is the criteria. A person signing up on GC.com day one can pay the admission price. It takes time, finds, and placements to actually become "experienced." It's not perfect, but light years better than paying $30.

 

Second, the part I find elitist is the "MOC for the first few finder to 'reward' them for supporting the hobby." Um, HELLO! This site wouldn't exist if weren't for paying members. This hobby wouldn't exist if it weren't cache placers. Who's more important? That's not to mention that the above attitude is a slap in the face of those who buy the merchandise from the GC.com store. They support the site.

 

So, do I feel MOC's are elitist? In many instances, yes I do. Others are only so because no better tool exists.

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Am I alone here?

No, there are some that don't like PM caches, but I think they have their place.

 

A friend hid a coin hotel. All the coins disappeared a week or so later, so he relocated the cache...they disappeared again a few days later. He relocated the cache and made it PM only. Cache has been in place for months and had no problems. Not sure if it was related, but it was coincidental.

Someone more knowledgeable can please correct me if I’m wrong, but as I understand it this type of vandalism is really the only reason Premium Member Only caches were made possible in the first place.

 

PM-only caches don’t exist as a means of snobbishness and elitist class distinction. They exist merely as an extra security option available to paying members.

 

Smomofo: In my opinion, folks like yourself who choose not to support the website as paying members, and who see PMO caches as an elitist snub at them, are looking at it the wrong way. Don’t be bummed that your status as a non-paying member blocks you from 5% of all caches; instead, be happy that the website makes the other 95% of caches available to you for free!

 

Speaking as a double-paying member (I have two PM accounts), and as one who therefore subsidizes your game play on this website, I am happy for you to have access to 95% of all geocaches without having to pay.

 

It all depends on your chosen point of view: Is your glass 95% full, or is it 5% empty?

 

See you on the trail!

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Not an issue for me. I looked once and I don't think there is a single PM-only cache here in Albuquerque.

 

But if I were still a Basic Member I wouldn't have a problem with PMOCs if there were any here. Just one more perk of being a premium member, along with pocket queries, unlimited watch lists, instant notifications, etc. :)

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Smomofo: In my opinion, folks like yourself who choose not to support the website as paying members, and who see PMO caches as an elitist snub at them, are looking at it the wrong way. Don’t be bummed that your status as a non-paying member blocks you from 5% of all caches; instead, be happy that the website makes the other 95% of caches available to you for free!

 

Thanks for the comment. But, I would like to point out to you that I AM a premium member. I payed a membership fee to support the activity.

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Smomofo: In my opinion, folks like yourself who choose not to support the website as paying members, and who see PMO caches as an elitist snub at them, are looking at it the wrong way. Don’t be bummed that your status as a non-paying member blocks you from 5% of all caches; instead, be happy that the website makes the other 95% of caches available to you for free!

Thanks for the comment. But, I would like to point out to you that I AM a premium member. I payed a membership fee to support the activity.

I stand happily corrected. Sorry, I forgot that detail from your post.

 

In that case, then, your concern is apparently for the feelings of those who have not chosen, as you have, to support the website. Do you not, then, find any comfort in the fact that each of those non-paying members is free to adjust his point of view from one of entitlement to one of gratitude, as I described in my 5%/95% comment?

 

Don’t be bummed that your status as a non-paying member blocks you from 5% of all caches; instead, be happy that the website makes the other 95% of caches available to you for free!

 

It all depends on your chosen point of view: Is your glass 95% full, or is it 5% empty?

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As you can tell, I am pretty new to Geocaching, but not new to using a GPS... So far I have logged a meager 8 Caches in the last week and a half (Cause I just started), but I became a PM because the fun I had with my kids was PRICELESS to me. I knew I had to support something that provided me with more family bonding time. Additionally the Pocket Queries were a feature I could really use... PMOC in no way influenced my decision to become a PM. Then I come across these forum posts and my stomach churns "Elitist!" OMG "My Food is coming up"... Whats Elitist about providing added services for money (Capitalism). I could think of a few things that fall with in the scope of the definition for the word Elitist, but charging for added services or functionality is not one of them. Why people take stuff like this to heart never ceases to amaze me. You want to really get your heart racing check out this thread Off Topic!! By the way one of the most interesting debates :)

 

Mag.

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Member only caches are simply a member feature and no more elitist than any other member feature. Are pocket queries, instant notifications and ignore lists elitist? Maybe they are depending on your definition of elitist. Even if they are elitist so what? It's easy enough to become one of the "elite" and if you aren't interested in doing that nobody is forcing you.

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Why people take stuff like this to heart never ceases to amaze me. You want to really get your heart racing check out this thread Off Topic!! By the way one of the most interesting debates :)

Yup. I'd think that anyone who believes that caches I pay to hide and the site owner pays to list the cache information just HAS to be available to everyone for free, are probably the same people who believe that any money I earn that might be more than what they earn just HAS to be taken from me and distributed to the "less fortunate".

 

It's elitist of me to want to keep the coordinates away from cache pirates as much as possible.

 

It's selfish of me to want to keep the money I earn to use how I see fit.

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With my finances I can't have it both ways. I can either spend a lot of time and money buying a membership, gas and PDA (and all that other techno stuff) to travel hither and yon looking for caches. Or I can spend a lot of time and money traveling not quite so far (mostly back and forth and back and forth) and creating, placing and maintaining devilishly clever caches. I choose the caches. If they ever get too elitist around here for me I'll just take my caches and go home.

There are no member's only caches right around here. Most cachers are just happy to have someone visit their cache. I always have to laugh, the only member's only cache ever place in my city was a LPC and I would hardly call that elitist. But I know there are those people who feel they can have nicer things in a members only cache believing there is less chance of it gettng stolen and that's okay with me.

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First, the MOC feature was or is a misguided feature to hide some caches from the general public. As I recall reading the forums--and it should all still be there--folks saw a need to hide cache listings. In the beginning, the quickest and easiest way to do this is check the member's data field to see if they were a paying member. It was figured only more dedicated and experienced cachers would be paying members.

I probably should defer to CoyoteRed since he has been a member longer than I. When I joined the Charter/Premium membership had been around for a little less than a year. Yet I seem to recall that explanation at that time was that several people had suggested the Members Only cache as a way to reward cachers for supporting the site. While most caches would remain free to all, a person could specify a cache was members only simply as a thank you to others for supporting the site. Some people change their PMO caches to regular caches after a few months.

 

I imagine that there was discussion in the forums before the members only cache was implement. I am sure that some must have thought that it was elitist even then. Since Jeremy had already stated that the ability to hide and seek caches would remain free, some probably objected that even making a few caches members only would go against this. Others pointed to existing caches that were located in areas that required a fee to enter. (The commercial guidelines weren't as strong then; there were even caches placed in amusement parks). My guess it that around this time we had our first experiences with cache maggots. Since anyone could see the coordinates for a cache (you didn't even need to be logged in back then), there were some individuals who thought that it would be fun to find geocaches and simply take the cache and every thing in it. My guess is that one of the arguments that got Members Only caches accepted was that by hiding these from non-paying persons you would protect them from cache maggots.

 

Later there was much discussion when it was discovered that non-premium members could still log PMO caches. Jeremy at that time said he would not close this "backdoor" as it provided a way for a non-paying member to log his find if he went caching with a premium member and found a PMO cache. This is often the case where one member of the family has a premium membership but the kids may want to log their own finds. The elitist, IMO, are the owners of PMO caches that delete the logs of non-premium cachers who use this backdoor logging technique.

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I have been geocaching for about 8 months, but only became a Premium Member about 2 weeks ago. I shelled out a membership fee to only support the activity and keep the site running, not because of the extra features that would come with a Premium Membership.

 

After becoming a Premium Member I noticed a couple more caches in my area, then noticed that they weren't new, but for Premium Members only! I think these are a disgusting feature. I waited a week before I posted this, giving myself time to cool off and think about it more, but I still hate the fact that they exist on this site.

 

I have no problem with any of the other features offered to Premium Members that make geocaching easier/more convenient/more fun. But to find out that regular (unpaying) members are excluded from some Geocaches is terrible.

 

I have heard the argument that the site needs to make money, so they have to offer features that will attract people to paying to become a Premium Member. That may be true, but it is my feeling that this should be done other ways. They already offer many other features to Premium Members, so they should still have membership fees coming in, plus, there is advertising on the site. I'm sure the advertisers are paying well.

 

I also argue that unpaying members are not just "freeloaders". I have several regular member friends that have placed many caches. Placing a new cache is not free: between the cost of a container, logbook, pencil, and some trade items, one can easily spend $20 to put out a cache. This site/activity depends on people placing new caches continuously, so should not be excluding those people from finding them.

 

How upset would you be if you were a regular member that had just spent $20 putting a nice cache together, another $20 for gas to place it in a special spot that you would like others to see, but when you try to register it are told by a reviewer that your cache cannot be placed there because there is already one there? One that you are not allowed to participate in because you chose to spend your money placing a cache rather than forking it over to this site to join their "Premium Members" club.

 

Am I alone here?

no i feel the same way.

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