Earthcache Permits in Mt Rainier Nat'l Park

[ATMouse]

A friend of mine recently went to renew her permits for her two Earthcaches in Mt Rainier Nat'l Park.

 

Mind you, this is a permit for a virtual cache...you go, you look, you read and you answer questions.

 

You do NOTHING at her sites that an average vistor would do and there is nothing left that might need maintenance or would cause any Ranger any more work than any other activity that would be undertaken by any other visitor to the Park.

 

And she was told it would cost $60.00 for a permit as it falls under "special use".

 

 

I hope this doesn't catch on as a money maker in all the Parks...

[+TerryDad2]

The EarthCaches I set up at Devils Postpile NM were exempt from the permit fee because they fell under the non-profit, educational activity.

 

In the special use permit appliction I received it is the first paragraph and states "A non-refundable processing fee of $50 is required to accompany this application (unless the requested use is an exercise of a First Amendment right or a non-profit educational activity). "

 

Each park may have thier own version of the permit, but I would expect them all to have similar exemptions. I would request that exemption, exspecially since these are just renewing existing permits.

[+AndrewRJ]

A friend of mine recently went to renew her permits for her two Earthcaches in Mt Rainier Nat'l Park.

 

Mind you, this is a permit for a virtual cache...you go, you look, you read and you answer questions.

 

You do NOTHING at her sites that an average vistor would do and there is nothing left that might need maintenance or would cause any Ranger any more work than any other activity that would be undertaken by any other visitor to the Park.

 

And she was told it would cost $60.00 for a permit as it falls under "special use".

 

 

I hope this doesn't catch on as a money maker in all the Parks...

Thats odd, your friend didn't need a permit the first time. Although if it gets rid of the lame ones in the park that some other people put in then it might be an agrivation, but a good thing in the end.

[+OReviewer]

From the NPS GPS-based Recreational Activities guidelines:

A superintendent may find that a GPS activity is an appropriate use but needs to be managed under the terms and conditions of a permit.

Bolded and underlined for emphasis. In Valley Forge, they didn't require a permit as everything was done on designated trails. As someone said above, try telling them it's a non-profit educational activity.

 

It might also be worth reminding/telling/showing them that the NPS's Geological Resources Division supports EarthCaching activities.

[+GEO WALKER]

I can understand obtaining a ”permit” if for nothing more than notification purposes, but to charged for a renewal???

I’d ask to see just what their regulations and policies are for that particular park, and have them show me the justification for the change.

There are some issues w/geocaching along the Appalachian Trail on the other end of PA. Suddenly everyone was asked to pull his or her caches. So maybe this is a carry over along the lines of each Park making their own determinations or a change in administrators.

Hey, if they don’t like caching I don’t have to go and play in their park.

 

I wonder how much $$$ they may be charging for parking?

[+supertbone]

From the NPS GPS-based Recreational Activities guidelines:

A superintendent may find that a GPS activity is an appropriate use but needs to be managed under the terms and conditions of a permit.

Bolded and underlined for emphasis. In Valley Forge, they didn't require a permit as everything was done on designated trails. As someone said above, try telling them it's a non-profit educational activity.

 

It might also be worth reminding/telling/showing them that the NPS's Geological Resources Division supports EarthCaching activities.

 

Here is my question. Is Groundspeak a for profit corp or is it a non profit? If it is for profit corp, I would gather that a cache posted on geocaching.com would not be considered a non-profit activity.

Edited October 31, 2008 by supertbone

[+OReviewer]

Here is my question. Is Groundspeak a for profit corp or is it a non profit? If it is for profit corp, I would gather that a cache posted on geocaching.com would not be considered a non-profit activity.

Only the NPS can answer that. My guess is that since one can use the site for free (and some of the parks print out the info for non-cachers, see Arcadia), they consider the listings to be not a profit.

[ATMouse]

I know that the cacher is trying to confirm this with TPTB right now.

 

I find it kinda distressing that one poster pretty much says don't worry about the permits and another suggests that the cacher doesn't read the permit applications when not only did she jump through all those hoops, but had to write several letters to various levels of administration at the Park; it took MONTHS to get the go-ahead for initial permits.

 

As for the caches themselves, aren't they GSA caches and GC.com posts them on their site as a cooperative effort? You can find these caches on the GSA site, Earthcache.org. So in a fashion, GC isn't the sponsoring organization at all. A cooperating one, maybe.

[+Cav Scout]

It took me two weeks to get my permit approved by the MRNP .

 

I know that the cacher is trying to confirm this with TPTB right now.

 

I find it kinda distressing that one poster pretty much says don't worry about the permits and another suggests that the cacher doesn't read the permit applications when not only did she jump through all those hoops, but had to write several letters to various levels of administration at the Park; it took MONTHS to get the go-ahead for initial permits.

[ATMouse]

It took me two weeks to get my permit approved by the MRNP .

 

 

The permit system can be one that makes me crazy even when I KNOW I've done my homework; I don't know how you feel, but I always enjoy the "your permit has been accepted" notification!

 

I believe you benefitted from her struggle and the information she shared with these current administrators. Her Earthcaches pre-date yours by a year. The only Earthcache in the park that is older (the one at the summit) may pre-date the need for permits; it doesn't seem to have one, or does it?

 

I love Earthcaches and am distressed by what seems to be a paid permit system. In a local state park, we need permits for Earthcaches and those permits are good for two years. Thereafter, the cache must be pulled and archived. Even though there is no physical cache to remove, Earthcaches go through the same "place and pull" cycle.

Edited November 2, 2008 by ATMouse

[+Cav Scout]

I do not know who "her" is but when I called and inquired about getting permssion I mentioned some of the current ECs in the park and they was unaware of a few of them (ECs are still there). I did not benefit from anyone elses work for placing ECs at Rainier. I do my own leg work when it comes to finding POCs. There is one nearby resident who lives at the base of Mt Rainier on the road going to the entrance. She has ECs up in the park and refused to tell me who she recieved permission from. That left me on my own to get the POC and the ball rolling on getting permission for the EC placement. I have renewed permits for other ECs I have throughout the states. Its actually pretty easy.

 

It took me two weeks to get my permit approved by the MRNP .

 

 

The permit system can be one that makes me crazy even when I KNOW I've done my homework; I don't know how you feel, but I always enjoy the "your permit has been accepted" notification!

 

I believe you benefitted from her struggle and the information she shared with these current administrators. Her Earthcaches pre-date yours by a year. The only Earthcache in the park that is older (the one at the summit) may pre-date the need for permits; it doesn't seem to have one, or does it?

 

I love Earthcaches and am distressed by what seems to be a paid permit system. In a local state park, we need permits for Earthcaches and those permits are good for two years. Thereafter, the cache must be pulled and archived. Even though there is no physical cache to remove, Earthcaches go through the same "place and pull" cycle.

[ATMouse]

I do not know who "her" is but when I called and inquired about getting permssion I mentioned some of the current ECs in the park and they was unaware of a few of them (ECs are still there). I did not benefit from anyone elses work for placing ECs at Rainier. I do my own leg work when it comes to finding POCs. There is one nearby resident who lives at the base of Mt Rainier on the road going to the entrance. She has ECs up in the park and refused to tell me who she recieved permission from. That left me on my own to get the POC and the ball rolling on getting permission for the EC placement. I have renewed permits for other ECs I have throughout the states. Its actually pretty easy.

 

It took me two weeks to get my permit approved by the MRNP .

 

 

The permit system can be one that makes me crazy even when I KNOW I've done my homework; I don't know how you feel, but I always enjoy the "your permit has been accepted" notification!

 

I believe you benefitted from her struggle and the information she shared with these current administrators. Her Earthcaches pre-date yours by a year. The only Earthcache in the park that is older (the one at the summit) may pre-date the need for permits; it doesn't seem to have one, or does it?

 

I love Earthcaches and am distressed by what seems to be a paid permit system. In a local state park, we need permits for Earthcaches and those permits are good for two years. Thereafter, the cache must be pulled and archived. Even though there is no physical cache to remove, Earthcaches go through the same "place and pull" cycle.

 

Cav, I'm not quarreling with your effort. All I am saying is that TPTB knew SOMETHING about EC's when you submitted for your permit. That's all. You are a big-time EC developer and I respect that. So don't take umbrage where none was offered.

 

And I am not responsible for another cacher's behavior, good bad or indifferent. I am concerned about permits to place an EC in a park that are requiring money to obtain. That's the topic here.

[+DonB]

Maybe I'm a little slow but why would you need a permit for an earth cache or a virtual? What would a cacher be doing different then an average tourist other then writing down some information so they could log the cache? It's not a physical cache.

[ATMouse]

Maybe I'm a little slow but why would you need a permit for an earth cache or a virtual? What would a cacher be doing different then an average tourist other then writing down some information so they could log the cache? It's not a physical cache.

 

It is a requirement of Earthcaches to get permission from the owner of the land. In the case of a park, then permission must be gotten from TPTB. If said administration folk saya permit is needed, then it is. Allegany State Park in NYS is one such place. You may NOT put an Earthcache in the park without a permit. Period.

[+TerryDad2]

I find it kinda distressing that one poster pretty much says don't worry about the permits and another suggests that the cacher doesn't read the permit applications when not only did she jump through all those hoops, but had to write several letters to various levels of administration at the Park; it took MONTHS to get the go-ahead for initial permits.

I have noticed that each permit application is specific for each park and the rules for the applicaiton are generated by the park. A couple of years ago, the Great Smokey Mountains wanted $200 with a special use application. They ignored my inquiries on behalf of another cacher for additional informaiton on why such a large fee was required.

 

I was not implying that the permit was not read. The permit in question may not have included the provisions for the exemption. I was providing an example from another park to provide options to deal with the situation that may not have been offered by the park staff.

 

The park staff may have changed, so you may need to start all over again with educating the staff on the program.

 

I recognize and appreciate the patience in obtaining permits from reluctant park staff. I am still working with Yosemite after 6 months, a 12 page proposal, and a Superintentand that has rejected multiple earthcache requests int he past. They recently got a new staff member that is at least willing to discuss the EarthCaches with me.

[ATMouse]

I find it kinda distressing that one poster pretty much says don't worry about the permits and another suggests that the cacher doesn't read the permit applications when not only did she jump through all those hoops, but had to write several letters to various levels of administration at the Park; it took MONTHS to get the go-ahead for initial permits.

I have noticed that each permit application is specific for each park and the rules for the applicaiton are generated by the park. A couple of years ago, the Great Smokey Mountains wanted $200 with a special use application. They ignored my inquiries on behalf of another cacher for additional informaiton on why such a large fee was required.

 

I was not implying that the permit was not read. The permit in question may not have included the provisions for the exemption. I was providing an example from another park to provide options to deal with the situation that may not have been offered by the park staff.

 

The park staff may have changed, so you may need to start all over again with educating the staff on the program.

 

I recognize and appreciate the patience in obtaining permits from reluctant park staff. I am still working with Yosemite after 6 months, a 12 page proposal, and a Superintentand that has rejected multiple earthcache requests int he past. They recently got a new staff member that is at least willing to discuss the EarthCaches with me.

 

Yikes...you are living this struggle then. More power to you and best wishes.

 

And as a cacher who loves Earthcaches, thank you.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Maybe I'm a little slow but why would you need a permit for an earth cache or a virtual? What would a cacher be doing different then an average tourist other then writing down some information so they could log the cache? It's not a physical cache.

 

Asking for the required written permission.

[+Woodstramp]

 

It is a requirement of Earthcaches to get permission from the owner of the land. In the case of a park, then permission must be gotten from TPTB. If said administration folk saya permit is needed, then it is. Allegany State Park in NYS is one such place. You may NOT put an Earthcache in the park without a permit. Period.

 

I've read through this topic and I'm still puzzled about permitting for these Earthcaches. Basically, from what I understand about it, an EC is only a suggestion for others to go see something you've made note of. You aren't actually leaving anything solid, liquid, vapor or plasma at the site. These park turkeys are requiring fees so that you can "suggest" a visit to a feature in a park they control?

 

Seems like a cool racket.....they should gouge all the travel related businesses that "suggest" a visit.

 

I was under the impression that government parks actually gained revenue with physical visitors though visitor entry fees. A listed EC, I would think, would bring in more money along with new EC seekers that would come looking for it. Gouging folks who'd send more money to your pockets is something I can't compute. Gooberment at work!

[+Rev Mike]

It is a requirement of Earthcaches to get permission from the owner of the land. In the case of a park, then permission must be gotten from TPTB. If said administration folk saya permit is needed, then it is. Allegany State Park in NYS is one such place. You may NOT put an Earthcache in the park without a permit. Period.

 

Nobody within New York State Parks seems to have much of a clue.

Some want permits, some don't, some make really strange requests.

 

I have one in a State Park in NY and another cacher contacted me after looking at mine wanting to know how I got permission since they (at the park level) referred her to SHPO.

 

My approach was to go right to the capital in Albany with my proposal and then the people at the top cleared my plans with the people in charge at a regional and then park level. It seems better that way - no suprises later since everyone knows about it for the top all the way down the food chain. Besides it is harder for the park to say no to their bosses than to me.

 

I have noticed that each permit application is specific for each park and the rules for the applicaiton are generated by the park. A couple of years ago, the Great Smokey Mountains wanted $200 with a special use application. They ignored my inquiries on behalf of another cacher for additional informaiton on why such a large fee was required.

 

The Great Smoky Mountains has been my biggest permission battle to date.

The like the idea but I still can't get anyone to say that they are the person that says it is OK.

 

Man is that a headache... I even have a plan for that one but can't get ahold of how I need to.

 

- Rev Mike

[+Renegade Knight]

A friend of mine recently went to renew her permits for her two Earthcaches in Mt Rainier Nat'l Park.

 

Mind you, this is a permit for a virtual cache...you go, you look, you read and you answer questions.

 

You do NOTHING at her sites that an average vistor would do and there is nothing left that might need maintenance or would cause any Ranger any more work than any other activity that would be undertaken by any other visitor to the Park.

 

And she was told it would cost $60.00 for a permit as it falls under "special use".

 

 

I hope this doesn't catch on as a money maker in all the Parks...

Special use is code speak for "I have no other catagory to place this permit, but I think we need a permit just the same becaused this is an 'organized activity". Confusing an organized activity with caching is a common mistake.

 

Reality is that there is no use other than someone hiking in which has it's own permit (if any) and which would be covered under that permit.

 

To get the person looking at the permit in the right frame of mind, someone could ask them what fee they charge the author of a guidebook. That's the closes thing to what an Earthcache is.

[+Renegade Knight]

Maybe I'm a little slow but why would you need a permit for an earth cache or a virtual? What would a cacher be doing different then an average tourist other then writing down some information so they could log the cache? It's not a physical cache.

 

Asking for the required written permission.

 

Good point. I didn't think about that.

 

I wonder if a guidebook author were to ask for permission would they then have to pay the annual fee to cover that part of their book as long as it's in brint.

[+Renegade Knight]

Maybe I'm a little slow but why would you need a permit for an earth cache or a virtual? What would a cacher be doing different then an average tourist other then writing down some information so they could log the cache? It's not a physical cache.

 

Nothing is different. You don't you don't need a special permit. However the power kicks in with the required permission. In my own work I've been held hostage by one agency because another agency said. "You need the approval of the second agency before we will give our own". The second agency who legally had a right to X would then ask for X, Y, and Z, but because of the rule imposed by the first agency I had no choice but to cave on Y & Z. Worse Y & Z become precidents and the second agency starts thinking they are entitled. Doubly worse the first agency gets used to seeing X, Y, & Z and starts expecting to see them as well.

 

Long story short. Because the EarthCache foundation requires permission, the power to force a permit where none is needed (and the confusion to ask for one to begin with) comes into play.

[+OReviewer]

The other suggestion is that you explain to them that geocachers are no different than birdwatchers AND that their own website tries to bring people to these sites. (I'm assuming it's one of the features mentioned on this page.) When I told the head ranger this, his mindset totally changed.

[+Dgwphotos]

There's a thread over in the Pacific Northwest forum about parks contacts, including Mount Rainer NP. You might pass that along.

[+Renegade Knight]

The other suggestion is that you explain to them that geocachers are no different than birdwatchers AND that their own website tries to bring people to these sites. (I'm assuming it's one of the features mentioned on this page.) When I told the head ranger this, his mindset totally changed.

Good one, and very apt.

[+OReviewer]

The other suggestion is that you explain to them that geocachers are no different than birdwatchers AND that their own website tries to bring people to these sites. (I'm assuming it's one of the features mentioned on this page.) When I told the head ranger this, his mindset totally changed.

Good one, and very apt.

Of course the ranger didn't know about that page so I had to show it to him also. (Well, the Vally Forge geologic page)... Gotta love teaching the head ranger about his park's website.

[+Rumpled]

I understand Earthcache requirements for getting landowner permission. But, when it comes to the powers that be; all you are doing is making something of a online guidebook. Does everyone who posts info online for parks or who writes books or trailguides get permission to do so from NPS.

It seems a bit much to me; especially paying for a permit to tell people to pay an admission fee to a park to do the normal touristy things.