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They Finally Did It


Mag Magician

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OK, the Ontario Government has finally proposed legislation that would ban the use of any handheld electronic device while driving. It is their stated goal to ban cell phones, along with any device that could distract the driver. Included in their statement is the use of GPS receivers.

 

Does this mean that when my 60Cx is in the holder on the windshield, it is no longer a handheld? :rolleyes:

 

Ontario motorists could soon be prohibited from using handheld devices, such as cell phones, PDAs, or GPS navigators while behind the wheel, as the province’s Premier, Dalton McGuinty announced earlier this week that he was considering far-reaching “safety” legislation for drivers.

 

McGuinty was on record as recently as April saying that there was little point to banning cell phones behind the wheel, because there are any number of distracting activities that drivers can engage in. He claims to have changed his mind, however, after a number of recent fatal accidents where cell phones are thought to have been a factor.

 

“I’ve always said I’ll do what the police think is important and make our roads safer,” Mr. McGuinty said on Tuesday.

 

But the Premier, who is also pushing a bill to ban smoking in cars when children are present, isn’t planning to stop at cell phones. He has asked his Transportation Minister, Jim Bradley, to consider “next generation” legislation that would take into account all handheld electronic devices.

 

“What about people who are tapping on the GPS system? What about the next gadget that they haven’t invented yet?” McGuinty asked. “I know what they’ve done in other provinces and other states. They’ve just dealt with one item - a cellphone.”

 

But while chatting on the phone while driving might not be the best idea, the public should be cautious of McGuinty’s proposal. His intentions seem to go far beyond placing limits on a particularly reckless activity, and into the realm of banning anything that could be categorized as a “distraction.”

 

Between seatbelt laws, smoking restrictions, and the proposed banning of mobile device usage, Ontario’s “Liberal” government is gradually intruding further into the private domain of individual choice. “Safety-first” is a great attitude, but state-mandated safety at the expense of liberty should not be accepted without question.

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The Ontario government tabled legislation that will ban text messaging and emailing while driving and force motorists to use hands-free, voice-activated equipment when making calls on their cellphones.

 

"We know these new technologies have created some tremendous conveniences," Transportation Minister told reporters on Tuesday. "But we know something else. Deep down, we all know it is dangerous to use them while driving."

 

Here's what is banned:

 

- cellphones, even at a stop light

- dialing

- BlackBerrys

- texting

- hand-held GPS

The OPP said it will start enforcing the new rules as soon as the government passes the legislation. If caught by police, drivers will face fines of at least $500 and demerit points.

Toronto CTV

 

Would be intersting if anyone can fin dthe exact wording of the bill.

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meh - i still use paper maps to get around mostly. Thats because my car adapter port is fried, and batteries are expensive. :rolleyes:

 

 

Actually now that i think about it - Radios are electronic devices too... guess i will just have to start reading the newpaper on my drive to work as well. Darn! this will affect me!

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This is certainly going to crimp the style of most geocachers. But it will probably increase partnering.

 

I think the ban is probably a good idea. It is scary how many people, including me, spend most of their drive either talking/texting/emailing on the cellphone. And how often have you missed a turn because you were focusing on a small screen instead of the road ahead.

 

It will be interesting to see what impact it has on cell phone revenue.

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The law says that a GPS is OK if it is properly mounted on the dashboard. So, if it is in the mount on the dashboard it is OK. Don't have a dashmount then buy one and you'll be fine. What the law is concerned about is the person who has it in their hand. That's a much more distracting activity.

 

I too favour the ban. I have had way too many close calls with people being on the phone and not seeing me when I cross a road. Then there is the person trying to make a 1 hand turn. Watch some time and virtually every single driver on a cell phone makes a mess of it (and don't know it), usually turning way too wide and ending up at least partially in the other lane, and worse, not seeing the pedestrian using the crosswalk.

 

JD

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I think the ban is a good thing too. It will not affect me since I have never texted while driving. I always thought people were absolutely crazy doing this! It is up there with reading a book or newspaper, etc while driving!

I do admit to making phone calls while driving although I do not do this anymore anyway. I drive a standard now and it is too difficult to drive, shift, signal, etc (all the things you are suppose to do while driving) AND hold a cell phone to my ear... so I don't.

There are still the issues of people paying too much attention to switching radio stations, cd's etc. Or those drivers who think that they need to look at the passenger while talking AND driving... instead of watching the road ahead of them. I have seen too many issues created by those kind of talking drivers!

 

Most times I am with my husband when geocaching so, depending on who is driving, the other is in charge of the GPSr. Although I do want to get a dash mount for those times I am by myself.

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Or those drivers who think that they need to look at the passenger while talking AND driving... instead of watching the road ahead of them. I have seen too many issues created by those kind of talking drivers!

 

That would be MrBP, and he talks with his hands, too, so his eyes aren't on the road and his hands aren't on the wheel. Needless to say I try not to start any conversations in the car :rolleyes:.

I find it interesting that Ontario is progressive enough to ban driving with handheld electronic devices, while Alberta won't consider it. We've been ranked the worst drivers in Canada here in Edmonton, and I won't argue that. Recently during a week of driving in Toronto, usually lost (in spite of three maps on my lap and a GPS in my hand) no one honked at us and everyone let us change lanes when we needed to. We'd been dreading driving in the "big city" but it turned out to be much more relaxing than driving here at home, where it seems like everyone drives a pickup, has a cell phone stuck to their ear, and has an attitude about owning the road.

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I am against this leglislation because the definition of "distraction" is not broad enough. I see far too many commuters reading the paper, applying make-up, eating or "hand talking" while driving. Clearly these "distractions" impair their ability to drive safely but are not covered in this leglislation. And what about frazzled soccer moms trying to deal with kids in the third row of the minivan?

 

There are laws on the books already that deal with careless driving. Problem is that charges are seldom laid unless an accident is the outcome of the careless act. This leglislation justs makes it so much easier to lay charges and is really just another cash grab.

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I am against this leglislation because the definition of "distraction" is not broad enough. I see far too many commuters reading the paper, applying make-up, eating or "hand talking" while driving. Clearly these "distractions" impair their ability to drive safely but are not covered in this leglislation. And what about frazzled soccer moms trying to deal with kids in the third row of the minivan?

 

There are laws on the books already that deal with careless driving. Problem is that charges are seldom laid unless an accident is the outcome of the careless act. This leglislation justs makes it so much easier to lay charges and is really just another cash grab.

 

I agree with you too Barnie, there are already laws that would uphold a police officer pulling over the person talking on the cell phone and driving erractically or whatever. Unfortunately there are too many people out there who are not paying attention with the electronic devices being their focus instead of the road and other drivers so the "powers that be" are probably thinking that they can lower the statistics by making it illegal.

The only thing is how many police officers are going to focus on this new law when there are still big issues of tailgaters, running red lights, racing, weaving, speeding excessively!

 

There are not enough hours in the day or police officers on the road to handle all that is expected and make an impact!

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I've been told that in Alberta (and it's probably in most other places too) you can be cited with a catch-all "driving with undue care" for electronics handling, putting on make-up, performing taxidermy, or whatever. But it generally is only as an add-on to other offences, e.g. after you've already hit the pole. It would be too easy to fight on it's own.

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OK, the Ontario Government has finally proposed legislation that would ban the use of any handheld electronic device while driving. It is their stated goal to ban cell phones, along with any device that could distract the driver. Included in their statement is the use of GPS receivers....

 

Since I always manage to buckle up while I'm driving due to never remembeing to do it when parked I recon it would be against the law for me to put my belt on.

 

They cast a wide net and will capture a lot of things wiht it. Like police with a mobile radio.

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So, is it illegal over there for the GPS to sit on the passenger seat, beeping occasionally and showing text about which way to turn? Is it okay unless you touch it?

 

:o;):D We're assuming, as of this point, that if a cop sees you with something in your hand, other than the steering wheel, he will have just cause to pull you over and write a $500 ticket. It's already been proven in court here, that if a cop sees you buckling the seat belt, after putting the car in drive, you can and will be charged.

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Having a conversation with a passenger in the vehicle is also a distraction.

True Dan, but in a very different way. The vehicle in the car can see the road conditions and know they have to stop talking and distracting you. They can also see the reason you may have tuned them out. And, it doesn't take a hand off the wheel. The person you talk to on the cell phone cannot see the conditions you are in and does nor auromatically adjust to it, and you have your one hand off the wheel. The cell phone becomes a much more attention grabbing activity because the person on the other end is grabbing it in a way a passenger does not.

 

JD

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So, is it illegal over there for the GPS to sit on the passenger seat, beeping occasionally and showing text about which way to turn? Is it okay unless you touch it?

Nope. As written, the law requires it to be mounted properly on the dash. Why, well sitting loose you still could be picking it up to look at when it beeps.

 

JD

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Ok...the text of the Bill is up and reads as follows:

" ...Display screen visible to driver prohibited

 

78. (1) No person shall drive on a highway a motor vehicle that is equipped with, carries, contains or has attached to it a television, computer or other device with a display screen if the display screen is visible to the driver.

 

Exceptions

 

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of,

 

(a) a global positioning system navigation device that has no other function than to deliver a global positioning system for navigation

 

(;) a logistical transportation tracking system device used for commercial purposes to track vehicle location, driver status or the delivery of packages or other goods;

 

© a collision avoidance system device that has no other function than to deliver a collision avoidance system; or

 

(d) instrument display screens that are used to provide information to the driver regarding the status of various systems of the motor vehicle."

 

So my understanding of this is is as long as it is mounted not in direct view of the driver a GPSr is ok to be used in a vehicle in Ontario?!? :o What do you think?

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Makes a lot of sense to me. I've seen what happens when people start searching through a handheld GPS for the next waypoint while driving. The Ontario law is pretty benign compared to some of the others around the world. I'm off to the UK next week where getting caught operating a handheld GPS or cellphone while driving constitutes dangerous driving with the possibility of 2 years in jail.

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Ok...the text of the Bill is up and reads as follows:

" ...Display screen visible to driver prohibited

 

78. (1) No person shall drive on a highway a motor vehicle that is equipped with, carries, contains or has attached to it a television, computer or other device with a display screen if the display screen is visible to the driver.

 

Exceptions

 

(2) Subsection (1) does not apply in respect of,

 

(a) a global positioning system navigation device that has no other function than to deliver a global positioning system for navigation.....(snip).....

 

So my understanding of this is is as long as it is mounted not in direct view of the driver a GPSr is ok to be used in a vehicle in Ontario?!? :o What do you think?

I am no Bay Street lawyer, so I couldn't argue it in court. However, it seems to read such that if you have a "goto" programmed into the GPSr, it would be legal within the driver's view. That would make it the exception under "system for navigation".

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...it seems to read such that if you have a "goto" programmed into the GPSr, it would be legal within the driver's view. That would make it the exception under "system for navigation".

 

No "goto" needed. It can just be there. It's a map, with a moving "you are here" point on it, and therefore is a system for navigation. I think it is clear, a GPSr is allowed regardless of what you are doing with it (as long as it is not in your hand).

 

It would be impossible to have the law state otherwise. If they tried to that, there would be a revolt of vehicle owners with built-in navigation systems.

 

But there must be a section dealing with programming the navigation device while moving, because you can't do that.

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Having a conversation with a passenger in the vehicle is also a distraction.

True Dan, but in a very different way. The vehicle in the car can see the road conditions and know they have to stop talking and distracting you. They can also see the reason you may have tuned them out. And, it doesn't take a hand off the wheel. The person you talk to on the cell phone cannot see the conditions you are in and does nor auromatically adjust to it, and you have your one hand off the wheel. The cell phone becomes a much more attention grabbing activity because the person on the other end is grabbing it in a way a passenger does not.

 

I wasn't really comparing it to using a cell phone, just pointing out how far such a law can go. There is no shortage of studies that show that talking to a passenger is indeed distracting and the cause of many accidents. (Especially when the passengers being talked to are in the back seat. And they are kids. Fighting with each other.) I know that if I am talking on the phone while driving, and approach any intersection or any situation at all, the person at the other end usually ends up saying "hello? are you there?" because I stop talking. But I do support a ban on cell phone use.

 

The other huge distraction is traffic signals/signs/marks. Instead of driving to the conditions, we are taught to drive to the signs. People are busy looking at traffic signs when they should be watching the road and traffic around them. It's gotten so bad, that we have signs to explain the signs.

 

But I digress from the topic. Cell phones while driving: no. Mounted GPSr units: still allowed.

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...it seems to read such that if you have a "goto" programmed into the GPSr, it would be legal within the driver's view. That would make it the exception under "system for navigation".

 

No "goto" needed. It can just be there. It's a map, with a moving "you are here" point on it, and therefore is a system for navigation. I think it is clear, a GPSr is allowed regardless of what you are doing with it (as long as it is not in your hand).

 

It would be impossible to have the law state otherwise. If they tried to that, there would be a revolt of vehicle owners with built-in navigation systems.

 

But there must be a section dealing with programming the navigation device while moving, because you can't do that.

 

There seems to be sections dealing with programming as well:

 

" Wireless communication devices

 

78.1 (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a highway while holding or using a hand-held wireless communication device or other prescribed device that is capable of receiving or transmitting telephone communications, electronic data, mail or text messages.....

Hands-free mode allowed

 

(3) Despite subsections (1) and (2), a person may drive a motor vehicle on a highway while using a device described in those subsections if the person is not holding the device.

6) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply if all of the following conditions are met:

 

1. The motor vehicle is off the roadway or is lawfully parked on the roadway.

 

2. The motor vehicle is not in motion.

 

3. The motor vehicle is not impeding traffic"

 

;) So, to read this, if you've set a goto and your GPSr is in its mount, you should be OK. I guess it remains to be seen to what extent this will be enforced. :o

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So, is it illegal over there for the GPS to sit on the passenger seat, beeping occasionally and showing text about which way to turn? Is it okay unless you touch it?

Nope. As written, the law requires it to be mounted properly on the dash. Why, well sitting loose you still could be picking it up to look at when it beeps.

 

JD

 

I've read through the bill a few times now and I don't see anywhere where it says that a GPS must be mounted to the dash. I does say that the GPS screen is exempt from the prohibition of screens that face the driver, and it says that a person may use a device if the person is not holding the device. As it is written, a device on the seat next to you is fine. Now where they might get around that is subsection 7 that states, the minister may make regulations prescribing devices for the purposes of subsections 1 and 2.

 

I think Barnie's Band of Gold hit the nail right on the head with his post. The thing here is now that if you are ever in an accident, you will most likely be charged with using a device prohibited while driving AND careless driving. Double whammy!

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There is no shortage of studies that show that talking to a passenger is indeed distracting and the cause of many accidents. (Especially when the passengers being talked to are in the back seat. And they are kids. Fighting with each other.) I know that if I am talking on the phone while driving, and approach any intersection or any situation at all, the person at the other end usually ends up saying "hello? are you there?" because I stop talking.

I think we are actually agreeing Dan and wasn't criticizing in any way. I was a psychologist at one point and did studies on people's ability to handle information. Yes, the studies indicate that a passenger is distracting, no dispute and I wasn't disputing that. What is substantially different, and demonstrably in studies, is that the psychological impact of the distraction is qualitatively different. A passenger can modify the intensity and quantity of their distractive conversation because they can see the situation. A person on the other end of the cell phone conversation cannot because they cannot see the environmental impacts the driver is experiencing. That makes for a very different set of demand characteristics on the communications. Communications by the way was the focus of my thesis.

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I've read through the bill a few times now and I don't see anywhere where it says that a GPS must be mounted to the dash. I does say that the GPS screen is exempt from the prohibition of screens that face the driver, and it says that a person may use a device if the person is not holding the device. As it is written, a device on the seat next to you is fine. Now where they might get around that is subsection 7 that states, the minister may make regulations prescribing devices for the purposes of subsections 1 and 2.

 

Ok, here's a link to a pdf on the Ministry of Transport site. That is what the interpretation and what the regulation will be. It clearly states the GPS will be mounted on the dashboard.

 

You're right about saying its not specifically there. But the details in almost every law come down to the regulations that the Minister is allowed to make. That provision is there because its impossible to write down everything and then have the legislation last. Regulations allow the Minister to keep the law relevant and current. Many laws are simply legal enablers so that regulations can be written. So, to really know what the law is saying you then have to see the written regulations. The link above is showing you what the Ministry is say is the regulation for GPS's and it will be mounted on the dashboard.

 

The other area one would have to look at is all the linking legislation. This is simply a re-write of one section of the Highway Traffic Act which itself will have sections referring to Ontario and Federal legislation which then have to be referred to. That's why lawyers make lots of money. You can't simply read one section of one law and have it figured out. I worked in various capacities for the Ontario Govt for 27 years and had many involvements with various pieces of legislation. It isn't as simple as people on this thread try to make it.

 

The link above tells you what the Ministry's legal staff have indicated are the impacts of all those links of law and regulation and that's what you should go by, at least until the first trials for people charged under the section and trial lawyers start trying to modify the interpretations.

 

JD

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Interesting developments.

 

While I cannot see the difference between a GPS that is dash mounted vs windshield mounted, I can see that manipulation of a GPS while a vehicle is in motion is potentially dangerous. Just as potentially dangerous as

  • Smoking - taking one hand off the wheel, glancing for the ashtray, butting out.
  • Audio players - taking one hand off the wheel for changing volume, stations, CDs, tracks
  • Beverage Holders - taking one hand off the wheel, glancing for the hole to return the cup or can

For my job I drive 50,000km per year and I know that those three items are far more distracting than 'glancing at' a GPS device no matter how it is mounted. I no longer smoke but I remember it well enough.

 

Human operation of a GPS unit, cell phone or text messaging device should be banned. Having a GPS display route data is no different than checking the time on the clock in your dashboard.

 

:) BQ

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While I agree with the ban on destracting devices I feel after the trendiness of this new law passes it will be just another charge after a accident. Prime example, signaling, not new but almost completely ignored by a large section of the drivers including police (guess there exempt on this as well).

When was the last time you heard of someone being pulled over because they didn't signal?

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Interesting developments.

 

While I cannot see the difference between a GPS that is dash mounted vs windshield mounted, I can see that manipulation of a GPS while a vehicle is in motion is potentially dangerous.

I talked today with a policeman friend of mine about exactly that. He says, that a GPS mounted in either spot he would consider properly mounted on the dash. He also said that trying to argue a difference in court would never fly so he can't see how police would split a hair quite that fine.

 

JD

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I can see that manipulation of a GPS while a vehicle is in motion is potentially dangerous. Just as potentially dangerous as

  • Smoking - taking one hand off the wheel, glancing for the ashtray, butting out.
  • Audio players - taking one hand off the wheel for changing volume, stations, CDs, tracks
  • Beverage Holders - taking one hand off the wheel, glancing for the hole to return the cup or can

I used to have a cohort at work who was famous for driving while:

 

1. reading an email on a blackberry

2. answering a phone call on a blackberry

3. drinking some tea

4. smoking a cigarette.

 

All at once. This is a testament to how well Blackberries are designed, and the fact that my friend had three hands, none of which were on the steering wheel. (Isn't that why they make tilt steering wheels? So you can get them in the right position to steer with your knees?)

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When was the last time you heard of someone being pulled over because they didn't signal?

 

Derek, when was the last time you heard about someone being charged with the offense of making a left hand turn without checking that the way was clear? It's an Ontario law, and I was charged. I turned left off a highway, with double yellow lines, clear vision to the front and rear for over a kilometer, my signals clearly on, and no oncoming traffic. The guy who hit me from behind was an American tourist, proven by skid marks to have been doing in excess of 60 kph over the speed limit, and passing illegally. However, under the law, as written, I was turning left, so it was my responsibility to be aware of idiots. I never won that fight in court??????

 

Laws are meant to be guidelines for judges and lawyers. However, we have to wait a few years before any new law is forgotten, and just written off as something that has become the norm.

 

This new one is welcomed due to the clearly cranial challenged drivers we have out there. I just hope that the enforcers have not been cranially challenged as well. :)

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I know they passed legislation last week for this new law, but when exactly does it come into effect? It wasn't clear and somewhere on the news I heard it will still be another couple months, but I don't see much mentioned about it that I can reference.

 

Yes I do think fiddling with a GPS while driving (even if mounted) is very distracting and this new legislation is making me more aware of it now. Guess I won't be able to change from follow road to offroad while I am driving anymore. Maybe one day Garmin will change this feature to switch with the click one 1 button instead of the 4 that is needed right now.

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While I am sure not going to bring it up to the powers that be, there is one big difference between in car navigation systems and handheld GPS...

 

The Nav system in my truck will not allow me to enter addresses, search POIs (aside from quick POIs like gas), or do many other seraches once I am moving over 5km/h.

 

I wonder if they might expand this at some point to include not even having the GPS on since you can doo all of the above. I would assume the in car systems have these restrictions because the regulators wanted them at some point.

 

Mind you, if I could enter coordinates into my Nav system, I wouldn't even need to turn the Oregon on...dare to dream...

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I know they passed legislation last week for this new law, but when exactly does it come into effect? It wasn't clear and somewhere on the news I heard it will still be another couple months, but I don't see much mentioned about it that I can reference.

 

On the link to the bill I posted above, you can look at the status of the bill. Currently the bill has passed it's first reading. It hasn't been passed into law yet. I imagine it will take a few more months before that happens. It doesn't sound like there will be much opposition to the bill though.

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