+the_dog Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Evening all. You know those reflective pins you can buy to use for helping directions to a night cache, yes. Well I've used them once, and placed them in a live tree, as opposed to a stake or fence post. Granted some sap did leak from the pins, and I would rather put them on dead wood, but are there any rules? I have a local cacher that is intent on removing these pins and consequently destroying the cache approach.... Link to comment
+Dorsetgal & GeoDog Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I guess it really depends whose trees they are, and what type of trees. If they were my trees and someone stuck pins in them, I would regard it as wanton vandalism, however, most of my trees are young (less than 20 years) and on my land. I can think of one of our local countryside wardens who would not care less about some trees, but be very concerned about other types of tree. I guess it really boils down to landowner permission. Link to comment
+the_dog Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 I guess it really depends whose trees they are, and what type of trees. If they were my trees and someone stuck pins in them, I would regard it as wanton vandalism, however, most of my trees are young (less than 20 years) and on my land. I can think of one of our local countryside wardens who would not care less about some trees, but be very concerned about other types of tree. I guess it really boils down to landowner permission. Let's assume it's general access land. You really didn't add anything to the discussion, I was asking if there are any general rules about firetacks. Link to comment
+Dorsetgal & GeoDog Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I guess it really depends whose trees they are, and what type of trees. If they were my trees and someone stuck pins in them, I would regard it as wanton vandalism, however, most of my trees are young (less than 20 years) and on my land. I can think of one of our local countryside wardens who would not care less about some trees, but be very concerned about other types of tree. I guess it really boils down to landowner permission. Let's assume it's general access land. You really didn't add anything to the discussion, I was asking if there are any general rules about firetacks. OK try this! Just because it is general access land does not give you the right to cause wanton vandalism ... Link to comment
+jerryo Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I guess it really depends whose trees they are, and what type of trees. If they were my trees and someone stuck pins in them, I would regard it as wanton vandalism, however, most of my trees are young (less than 20 years) and on my land. I can think of one of our local countryside wardens who would not care less about some trees, but be very concerned about other types of tree. I guess it really boils down to landowner permission. Let's assume it's general access land. You really didn't add anything to the discussion, I was asking if there are any general rules about firetacks. That answer is the best you're going to get: anything else will be just someone's opinion. BTW, There are a load of smileys you can use if your posts might seem to come across as a little terse. Link to comment
+Simply Paul Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Any thick-barked, older tree won't be damaged by a firetack- Seeing sap is a bad sign! Link to comment
+deejay44 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I nearly answerd this but thought better of it with the attitude of the OP. Link to comment
+the_dog Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 I guess it really depends whose trees they are, and what type of trees. If they were my trees and someone stuck pins in them, I would regard it as wanton vandalism, however, most of my trees are young (less than 20 years) and on my land. I can think of one of our local countryside wardens who would not care less about some trees, but be very concerned about other types of tree. I guess it really boils down to landowner permission. Let's assume it's general access land. You really didn't add anything to the discussion, I was asking if there are any general rules about firetacks. OK try this! Just because it is general access land does not give you the right to cause wanton vandalism ... I'm really sorry, but can you please attempt to answer the original question. " Are there any rules about firetacks?". They are sold by GC vendors for the purpose of night caching, presumably most folks will put them in live trees. Ok, you don't like them in your trees, I can appreciate that, but can you please give me a straight answer to a straight question? Link to comment
+the_dog Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 I nearly answerd this but thought better of it with the attitude of the OP. Go for it. Link to comment
+scottpa100 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Your question to the forum - allowed or not. The Unknown type of cache will allow this. You should check with the landowner with he/she is okay with it. As to damage to trees. If tacked to a thick barked tree (oak, beech, old sycamore) I think you'd be fine. Thin barked trees (birch, ash) then maybe just a shallow tack? But I don't think you'd be wanting to see sap / resin / tree juice. Link to comment
+Dorsetgal & GeoDog Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) I'm really sorry, but can you please attempt to answer the original question. " Are there any rules about firetacks?". They are sold by GC vendors for the purpose of night caching, presumably most folks will put them in live trees. Ok, you don't like them in your trees, I can appreciate that, but can you please give me a straight answer to a straight question? Just because approved vendors sell them does not make them acceptable for application to trees. In any case, in the United Kingdom, and we have to assume that's where your cache is, because it doesn't show on the profile you are using to post here, the countryside code and local law would trump gc.com rules anyway. So, follow your countryside code and all will be well. Edited October 21, 2008 by Dorsetgal & GeoDog Link to comment
+Mad H@ter Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 No, there are not any specific rules on GC.com regarding the use of firetacks. Hope that is of some help . Link to comment
+maxkim Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I have a local cacher that is intent on removing these pins and consequently destroying the cache approach.... I would be very annoyed if a local cacher tried to remove one of my caches... there are proper channels which should be followed if you are not happy about a cache (most involve a reviewer)... and none of them involve direct action... Link to comment
+maxkim Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) and... (to use up a double post)... If the land owner is happy with the cache and how it is set up then surely that is that. Edited October 21, 2008 by maxkim Link to comment
+deejay44 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) Discover the beauty of the natural environment and take special care not to damage, destroy or remove features such as rocks, plants and trees. They provide homes and food for wildlife, and add to everybody's enjoyment of the countryside. Discover the beauty of the natural environment and take special care not to damage, destroy or remove features such as rocks, plants and trees. They provide homes and food for wildlife, and add to everybody's enjoyment of the countryside. Edited October 21, 2008 by deejay44 Link to comment
+the_dog Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 I'm really sorry, but can you please attempt to answer the original question. " Are there any rules about firetacks?". They are sold by GC vendors for the purpose of night caching, presumably most folks will put them in live trees. Ok, you don't like them in your trees, I can appreciate that, but can you please give me a straight answer to a straight question? Just because approved vendors sell them does not make them acceptable for application to trees. In any case, in the United Kingdom, and we have to assume that's where your cache is, because it doesn't show on the profile you are using to post here, the countryside code and local law would trump gc.com rules anyway. So, follow your countryside code and all will be well. No problem. Any cache I come across in the future that has firetacks in a nightcache (that are placed in trees) I will remove. You bunch of guardian tree huggers. Link to comment
+the_dog Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 I have a local cacher that is intent on removing these pins and consequently destroying the cache approach.... I would be very annoyed if a local cacher tried to remove one of my caches... there are proper channels which should be followed if you are not happy about a cache (most involve a reviewer)... and none of them involve direct action... Thank you. That's part of the point, no notice apart from a terse e-mail stating the removal of the firetacks. Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 As far as I am aware, there are no 'General Rules (guidelines)" about the use of tacks in trees. I'm not happy with tacks in living trees. There are no "General Rules" about me hammering tacks in to your arm. Would you be happy if I did that, as there is nothing in the "General Rules" to say I can't? Link to comment
+Dorsetgal & GeoDog Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Very well said B&R. Link to comment
+Dorsetgal & GeoDog Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 That's part of the point, no notice apart from a terse e-mail stating the removal of the firetacks. Hmmm, maybe they thought that was the only way to get you to listen to them! Not that I am condoning their direct action. Link to comment
+scottpa100 Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Thank you. That's part of the point, no notice apart from a terse e-mail stating the removal of the firetacks. I don't think its a problem for the forum - we've got night caches up round these parts and they remain undamaged. It just sounds like you've got to get your best diplomatic head on and pacify what ever the other person's concerns are. If the person has concerns about damage to a live tree perhaps moving them to a thick barked tree may help you. I'll settle back down now and get on with the crossword in the Grudian.... (typo on purpose...) Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 As far as I am aware, there are no 'General Rules (guidelines)" about the use of tacks in trees. I'm not happy with tacks in living trees. There are no "General Rules" about me hammering tacks in to your arm. Would you be happy if I did that, as there is nothing in the "General Rules" to say I can't? Thank you. Your words of wisdom will ensure that I take an entirely different view of what I can do in this world from this moment on. Please feel free to staple your bollox to the floor, because as I understand it, the rules don't say you can't. Idiot. Read the Forum Guidelines 3. Personal attacks and inflammatory behavior will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad. General attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated. Link to comment
+Malpas Wanderer Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Evening all. I have a local cacher that is intent on removing these pins and consequently destroying the cache approach.... Others have assumed that you refer to your own cache. Is that the case? Perhaps not hiding behind a sock puppet account would clarify this Link to comment
+HazelS Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Where's the duck when you need her? lol Link to comment
+Simply Paul Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Referee! Anyway! There are rules about putting firetacks in someone's arm- It's be called ABH if they didn't want it done. Put them in your own arm, or having them put there would be body modification... I suggest, Mr Dog, that you forward the email you got to a Reviewer and see if they want to approach the cacher removing your tacks. I really would avoid doing harm to a tree though, and sap is a sign of harm. So... Link to comment
+JeremyR Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) This is a non-issue really, isn't it? The listing guidelines (yes, those old chestnuts!) say "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location." That sentence obviously extends 'beyond the box', to all physical parts of a cache and to access rights to the land involved. Therefore if the owner of the trees agrees (or is yourself) then it's fine. Otherwise, it's not. Simple. There is also one night cache that I can think of that doesn't use attached tacks, it uses small reflective objects which are just positioned in place, removing the possibility of damaging trees or other structures that they would otherwise be attached to. Obviously the permission requirement remains, however. Edited October 21, 2008 by JeremyR Link to comment
+PopUpPirate Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) Awwww can't we keep him! He's like an angry pet! Ex-ranger POV - A few tacks in a tree won't do the tiniest bit of damage. Edited October 21, 2008 by PopUpPirate Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 What ever the rights or wrongs of tacks in trees, it's not down to another cacher to remove them (on an active cache), it's something that should be taken up with the cacher and/or a reviewer... A no longer active cache (archived), and the placer no longer caching, then yes, remove the tacks. Link to comment
+jerryo Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Awwww can't we keep him! He's like an angry pet! Naw. Have you seen that mullet? You want a mullet like that snapping at your heels? The dawg doesn't seem to have found or hidden any caches either, so I wonder where the firetacks went. I don't actually. Link to comment
+HazelS Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I'm with PUP on this one..... I just asked a ranger friend of mine, and she said "it all depends on teh age and type of the tree" (She should have been a polititian!) So - her advice would be that you should ask the land owner (more appropriately - the land manager) for advice. They will tell you which trees they would be happy for you to tack, where on the tree, and who knows, might even help you with maintenance. You say the trees are on "general access land" but remember that ALL land is owned by SOMEONE and you really do need to speak to them!! Link to comment
+spannerman Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I don't think the tiny tack causes any harm at all to trees. As long as the landowner is happy and it's a tree and not a sapling then there isn't a problem. Birch sap wine More intrusive than a fire tack. Link to comment
+Malpas Wanderer Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Awwww can't we keep him! He's like an angry pet! Ex-ranger POV - A few tacks in a tree won't do the tiniest bit of damage. Until they grow in and blunten the saw when harvested. Link to comment
+purple_pineapple Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) Awwww can't we keep him! He's like an angry pet! Ex-ranger POV - A few tacks in a tree won't do the tiniest bit of damage. lol to be fair - and don't all accuse me of wanton vandalism - but how much damage could be done to a decent-sized tree (not just thick bark, but obviously not a sapling) by a 5mm pin in it? lets face it, most trees will have branches and so on snapped off from time to time, and can cope with various things nailed or screwed to them, or being hammered by woodpeckers! I would certainly never condone the unauthorised removal of someone else firetacks - I've had my own caches deliberately destroyed by other cachers once, and I see no difference between theft of the tacks and theft of an ammo can by cachers. Its simply not on. There are procedures for dealing with caches in dispute. Having said that, its amusing to see the use of dogs danglies in the forums! how come we've been missing out?! And I have a feeling that 'the dog' is thick barked skinned enough to look after himself! edit to say PuP was editing as I was quoting! Edited October 21, 2008 by purple_pineapple Link to comment
+the_dog Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 Awwww can't we keep him! He's like an angry pet! Ex-ranger POV - A few tacks in a tree won't do the tiniest bit of damage. I may possibly take that as a compliment. If I'm honest I generally post "mr angry" on this account. C'mon who amongst you have not asked tonight "who's this idiot". It spices things up a little. It's not a sock puppet, I'm a paid up member, but I do cache on a separate account. the_dog Link to comment
+Dorsetgal & GeoDog Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I'm with PUP on this one..... I just asked a ranger friend of mine, and she said "it all depends on teh age and type of the tree" (She should have been a polititian!) So - her advice would be that you should ask the land owner (more appropriately - the land manager) for advice. They will tell you which trees they would be happy for you to tack, where on the tree, and who knows, might even help you with maintenance. You say the trees are on "general access land" but remember that ALL land is owned by SOMEONE and you really do need to speak to them!! ... which is exactly what I said in my first post, the initial answer given to the dog, and I use that term (the dog) very loosely as it is an insult to the mild mannered, kind, and gorgeous creature I have at my feet. There's none so deaf as those who will not hear! Link to comment
+jerryo Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Awwww can't we keep him! He's like an angry pet! Ex-ranger POV - A few tacks in a tree won't do the tiniest bit of damage. I may possibly take that as a compliment. If I'm honest I generally post "mr angry" on this account. C'mon who amongst you have not asked tonight "who's this idiot". It spices things up a little. It's not a sock puppet, I'm a paid up member, but I do cache on a separate account. the_dog The idiot is the one who's paid $30 for a dodgy account. Go on then, who are you? Eeeeek: I fed the troll. Link to comment
+Bear and Ragged Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 If I'm honest I generally post "mr angry" on this account. Premium Member or not: Read the Forum Guidelines4. Sock puppet accounts are not permitted. A sock puppet is an account made on an internet message board by a person who already has an account for the purpose of posting anonymously. Use your own account for posting personal opinions. Posts from known sock puppet accounts will be deleted and both the puppet and actual account may be banned from using the services of Groundspeak. Link to comment
+JeremyR Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I think this thread is set to break my record for 'most topic reply notifications generated in a short space of time' with 11 in about 20 minutes. <unsubscribe> Link to comment
+Captain Gore-tex Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Crikey pushing a pin into a tree in a wood is really upsetting to me too. I can understand that, in fact I was a bit disturbed by someone placing a micro under a large flat stone recently, (what about the resident wood lice underneath it?) let alone the cacher who drilled a hole into a fence post to hide a cache (when is wood REALLY dead and therefore cannot feel pain, who knows?) and the final straw was when I actually found a cache in an arboretum and the darn caretakers of the collection had themselves hammered a big nail and identifying tag into ever single one of the four thousand trees. Luckily enough they seem to have survived the last 3 centuries despite this torture and inevitable seeping sap...thank goodness for that. Link to comment
+moor to sea Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I've done caches with Pins in trees and they haven't fallen over I've also seen caches screwed to them as well , no harm done. Nail some more in Link to comment
+The Bongtwashes Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 No problem. Any cache I come across in the future that has firetacks in a nightcache (that are placed in trees) I will remove. You bunch of guardian tree huggers. I hope you'll put a plaster on the wounds when you remove them, you never know.... Link to comment
+perth pathfinders Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I find caching with a Timberjack does more damage than a pin. Link to comment
The Caching Widow Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 When people are treated in this way after asking a more than sensible question is it so surprising that so called "sockpuppets" are used?...moreover the question was asked on behalf another cacher who now feels quite guilty. Its not that people don't have the balls to post here, it because people have the sense not to. Obviously the dog will receive a ban for making personal attacks, lets just hope users such as Bear and Ragged and jerryo are also banned for returning them. As for the question on firetacks, any chance of a response from a reviewer? Link to comment
+Dorsetgal & GeoDog Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) As for the question on firetacks, any chance of a response from a reviewer? ... why would the opinion of a reviewer over rule a landowner or the countryside code? Take it another way, in the case of an urban cache, you get stopped by the police cos the cache is in a sensitive area and say "the reviewer said it was ok" ... and see how far that gets you. Edit to add: Sheesh I just fed another troll ... Edited October 21, 2008 by Dorsetgal & GeoDog Link to comment
+mongoose39uk Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Evening all. You know those reflective pins you can buy to use for helping directions to a night cache, yes. Well I've used them once, and placed them in a live tree, as opposed to a stake or fence post. Granted some sap did leak from the pins, and I would rather put them on dead wood, but are there any rules? I have a local cacher that is intent on removing these pins and consequently destroying the cache approach.... I don't think there are any rules or guidelines at present on the subject of firetacks. However if the cache had approval and someone later had an issue with it I would have thought they should take that up with a reviewer rather than effectively destroying the cache. Link to comment
+jerryo Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Obviously the dog will receive a ban for making personal attacks, lets just hope users such as Bear and Ragged and jerryo are also banned for returning them. For making personal attacks on a sock puppet account? I think not. Anyway, I was answering a question posed by someone who described himself as an idiot. I merely used the same soubriquet as in the question. And if you're referring to the mullet comment, I mean d@mn, have you seen it? Link to comment
+Mad H@ter Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 When people are treated in this way after asking a more than sensible question is it so surprising that so called "sockpuppets" are used?...moreover the question was asked on behalf another cacher who now feels quite guilty. Its not that people don't have the balls to post here, it because people have the sense not to. Obviously the dog will receive a ban for making personal attacks, lets just hope users such as Bear and Ragged and jerryo are also banned for returning them. As for the question on firetacks, any chance of a response from a reviewer? Unfortunately it would appear that Mr Dog managed to put peoples backs up on his 2nd post: You really didn't add anything to the discussion Which was his response to what seemed a perfectly reasonable answer. Sadly things went downhill from this point onwards. As to his question as to whether there are any rules regarding the use of firetacks I believe that this has been clearly answered, and just in case it was missed the answer is "NO". If anyone needs to look at the way they treat other people, IMHO I think that Mr Dog needs to look much closer to home. Link to comment
+drdick&vick Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 (edited) I am amazed that a mod has not stopped this thread yet as it seems to be getting out of hand. Edited October 21, 2008 by DrDick&Vick Link to comment
mandarin Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 I go away for a couple of hours, come back, what do I find? 8 Reports to Mod and some other matters I'll need to look over... This Topic first of all - I think the matter of firetacks has been covered. Deceangi has dealt with the OP's original question, so I think this is a good time to close this Topic. Thank you to all who have made sensible and polite contributions to the discussion. mandarin Link to comment
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