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I recently contacted Groundspeak with a suggestion that quite possibly has already been discussed here. They suggested that since this affected all geocachers that I should post my idea here anyway. I approached them with the idea of establishing a new icon, a flashlight perhaps, to represent night geocache courses. Another geocacher and I are currently working on setting one up in the St. Louis area and I know they are gaining popularity throughout geoland. My thought was that since this is indeed a numbers game for many, perhaps the number of night courses for many would be a badge of honor if you will. Would anyone else like to see this happen or would there be a downfall to it that I'm just not seeing? I know a lot of work goes into not only placing these courses, but finding the cache at the end as well. I think the new icon would encourage others to become more creative in their nighttime efforts and would just be another fun addition to geocaching! Please offer any support or feedback here please. Thanks! Perhaps if enough people are in favor of the idea and respond, we can see this new icon come to fruition! I believe it meets all of the criteria for a geocache.

 

There is no consensus with only one post. :) I totally agree with you. Let's have a night cache only icon. :P

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I personally think the way the attributes were implemented was a little "off." The cache hunt modifiers were mixed in with amenities. There are attributes that modifiers, like SCUBA, climbing gear, boat, etc., that let us know what is needed to hunt the cache. Then there are attributes that are niceties, like telephone nearby, restrooms, dogs allowed, etc. I believe these should not be mixed together.

 

My personal belief is there should be two more cache categories and basically breaks out the present Unknown/Puzzle/Mystery category. "Unknown" for those caches that folks don't want to say what it is. "Mystery" for caches that have bogus starting coordinates. "Other" for the catch-all.

 

"Puzzle" shouldn't be a category because you can have puzzles in caches that are otherwise traditionals, multis, and mysteries. "Puzzle" could be a cache modifier attribute like "night cache" as a cache can be both. You can't have a cache that is both a traditional and a multi. You could conceivably have a night-only, puzzle, SCUBA, rock-climbing traditional cache. (Ummm, follow the GPS to the listed coordinate where you have to SCUBA to a open hole in the earth, then rock climb up, in the dark, and open a puzzle lock to open the cache. Yes, I know it breaks the present paradigm.)

 

So, I say "no" to a new "night-time only" cache type and say yes to fixing the present system.

 

Gotta agree here. The current hodgepodge of 'attributes' is less-than-effective. Revising THAT system would allow cachers to both search for and describe caches with much greater utility. And that's a great point about "puzzle".

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I night only icon would be nice since it would be very easy for those pulling querries can easily select or deselect that icon. I purposely deselect the mystery icon since the cahe is not at the posted location most times. If I were to go on a night cache run, it would be very easy for me to run a quick querry for these caches and plan my evening. There are some caches in my area where the night only attr is not checked and therefore would not pull into my querry.

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I personally think the way the attributes were implemented was a little "off." The cache hunt modifiers were mixed in with amenities. There are attributes that modifiers, like SCUBA, climbing gear, boat, etc., that let us know what is needed to hunt the cache. Then there are attributes that are niceties, like telephone nearby, restrooms, dogs allowed, etc. I believe these should not be mixed together.

 

My personal belief is there should be two more cache categories and basically breaks out the present Unknown/Puzzle/Mystery category. "Unknown" for those caches that folks don't want to say what it is. "Mystery" for caches that have bogus starting coordinates. "Other" for the catch-all.

 

"Puzzle" shouldn't be a category because you can have puzzles in caches that are otherwise traditionals, multis, and mysteries. "Puzzle" could be a cache modifier attribute like "night cache" as a cache can be both. You can't have a cache that is both a traditional and a multi. You could conceivably have a night-only, puzzle, SCUBA, rock-climbing traditional cache. (Ummm, follow the GPS to the listed coordinate where you have to SCUBA to a open hole in the earth, then rock climb up, in the dark, and open a puzzle lock to open the cache. Yes, I know it breaks the present paradigm.)

 

So, I say "no" to a new "night-time only" cache type and say yes to fixing the present system.

 

Gotta agree here. The current hodgepodge of 'attributes' is less-than-effective. Revising THAT system would allow cachers to both search for and describe caches with much greater utility. And that's a great point about "puzzle".

 

Yep.

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As somebody fairly new to geocaching I'm going to side with the OP. My friends and I have done our 1st 2 caches in the last 3 weeks both of which were night caches and we're hooked. We are set to conquer our 3rd tomorrow night (GC14Z4N). After extensive googles and searches on this site for a night cache in our area this cache was found via a local group of cachers (http://www.cogeocaching.org/), not geocaching.com.

 

I've really enjoyed the nocturnal one's done so far and I dread that this is the last one we'll be able to find. I can't figure out for the life of me how to find more of the night persuasion by distance from my location with the search options available here, and I am losing patience sifting through lame park n grabs.

 

Additionally if anyone knows of more nocturnals in the central ohio area, please share :ph34r:

Edited by it's cached dude
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if you like night caches then you can do a pocket querie for night caches i personally havent tryed it

 

That's the point of the request. There currently is no way to do a PQ for night caches only. Can't be done. However, if there were a separate cache type for night caches....

There isn't an attribute for night only caches. I'd rather see an additional attribute.

 

I just did a query asking for "flashlight required" and "recommended at night." It returned 46 caches in 500 miles of my home coordinates. Only 4 were returned when I added "not available at all times." Using only "recommended at night" the number goes beyond 500. There are plenty of caches that are extra cool done at night, but are not night-only caches.

 

The attribute "recommended at night" is not the same as "night-time only." There should be a "night-time only" attribute.

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if you like night caches then you can do a pocket querie for night caches i personally havent tryed it

 

That's the point of the request. There currently is no way to do a PQ for night caches only. Can't be done. However, if there were a separate cache type for night caches....

There isn't an attribute for night only caches. I'd rather see an additional attribute.

 

I just did a query asking for "flashlight required" and "recommended at night." It returned 46 caches in 500 miles of my home coordinates. Only 4 were returned when I added "not available at all times." Using only "recommended at night" the number goes beyond 500. There are plenty of caches that are extra cool done at night, but are not night-only caches.

 

The attribute "recommended at night" is not the same as "night-time only." There should be a "night-time only" attribute.

That would help, but it would be nice to have something in the GPX file that could be downloaded (attributes aren't included).

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The common consensus here I think is that the cache type is still a traditional cache. The method of hunting it is unique but in the end you still have a traditional, multi, letterbox or offset cache. There is an attribute for night caching.

 

The argument against making a different cache type for an unique method of hunting is soon you would have cache types for scuba, 4x4, climbing, spelunking, helicopter etc caches. Too many cache types when the same effect can be achieved with attributes.

 

I wonder how hard it would be to add an additional or modified icon to indicate that the multi, letterbox, or offset was a night cache? Maybe a glowing ring around the standard icon?

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if you like night caches then you can do a pocket querie for night caches i personally havent tryed it
That's the point of the request. There currently is no way to do a PQ for night caches only. Can't be done. However, if there were a separate cache type for night caches....
There isn't an attribute for night only caches. I'd rather see an additional attribute.

 

I just did a query asking for "flashlight required" and "recommended at night." It returned 46 caches in 500 miles of my home coordinates. Only 4 were returned when I added "not available at all times." Using only "recommended at night" the number goes beyond 500. There are plenty of caches that are extra cool done at night, but are not night-only caches.

 

The attribute "recommended at night" is not the same as "night-time only." There should be a "night-time only" attribute.

That would help, but it would be nice to have something in the GPX file that could be downloaded (attributes aren't included).

You're preaching to the choir, brother.

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The common consensus here I think is that the cache type is still a traditional cache. The method of hunting it is unique but in the end you still have a traditional, multi, letterbox or offset cache. There is an attribute for night caching.

 

The argument against making a different cache type for an unique method of hunting is soon you would have cache types for scuba, 4x4, climbing, spelunking, helicopter etc caches. Too many cache types when the same effect can be achieved with attributes.

I wonder how hard it would be to add an additional or modified icon to indicate that the multi, letterbox, or offset was a night cache? Maybe a glowing ring around the standard icon?

Probably harder than adding an attribute.

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I too would like either an icon or a searchable attribute for "Night-only" caches. The way things stand right now there is no practical way to create a PQ that pulls "Night-only" caches. In part becasue of the way the attribute system is used, making it inconsistant at best and in part because of the ever evolving meaning of the cache types mixed with grandfathering.

 

The incosistant use of the attribute system is mostly on the cache owners who don't read the descriptions of what each icon means. 24/7 is eough to say it's available at night, the night attribute should at least be reserved for caches that are more interesting at night. A 3/4 mile hike isn't a "significant hike", though it might be strenuos if it climbs 600' of elevation in the process and IMO should be reserved for hikes over 2 miles at minimum, etc...

 

On the other hand the fluxuting meaning of cache types and the patchwork quilt of grandfathered listings rest squarely with TPTB.

 

I'm fully aware that it would be a pain in the tail to go back and review 600K caches after a change in cache type guidlines, and I certainly wouldn't want older types archived, but by allowing older caches to follow different rules makes it confusing when you try to run a search. Just for instance I have a night-only cache and an offset cache which under current guidlines are both "mystery" caches but are listed as a traditional (the night cache) and a multi as per the rules when they were placed. I can't change them, and the one time I asked the reviewer they said they couldn't either (couldn't be bothered is more likely.)

 

Not that I really want them lumped in with the puzzles anyway. The mystery cache type seems to me to just be a type for "You gotta read the cache page to figure it out, because we didn't want to overtax the reviewer by making them read through the whole listing."

 

If they do come out with a new cache type for night caches I hope they also put in a process for changing the listing types so the new and old listings will be consistant. At least allow the owners the power to update their listings as neeed. I can't believe it'd be that hard to seperate out the true puzzles "?" from the offsets (an arrow maybe), the night caches (flashlight) and the ALR caches which are also currently lumped under "?" These are distinctly different experiences when you go to seek them and deserve their own types (Consistantly applied!!!)

 

AK

Edited by ar_kayaker
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I asked for this in the past but now think we need an overhaul of the attributes. Coyote sums it up nicely i would say we need a cache type section for attributes and it should have

 

Scuba diving cache

Rock climbing cache

Night cache

Solve at home puzzle cache

 

etc

 

And allow combinations of the above.

 

Keeping it in the attributes saves modifying all exisiting caches.

 

I would also enlist community help in applying attributes to old caches a system where when you log a cache you can tick which attributes apply (make this optional from user preferences) would soon get the older caches labelled correctly.

 

You would probably need a lock after 4 or 5 people have nominated appropriate attributes and a these attributes are wrong button to report mischief as well

 

Having said all that im sticking with reading cache pages

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I asked for this in the past but now think we need an overhaul of the attributes. Coyote sums it up nicely i would say we need a cache type section for attributes and it should have

 

Scuba diving cache

Rock climbing cache

Night cache

Solve at home puzzle cache

 

etc

 

And allow combinations of the above.

The addition of attributes was poorly designed. Essentially Geocaching.com adopted the ideas (and some of the icons) from 9Key's "The Selector" site. "The Selector" generated a graphic that cachers could optionally put on their cache page that show some attributes of the cache at a glance. It was very flexible and new attributes were added all the time. The Groundspeak implementation was supposed to be an improvement that allowed searching by attribute. It took a while before that search was finally added to PQs and even longer before it worked reasonably. In the meantime, people either decided it just wasn't worth putting attributes on their caches, or decided to stick attributes on for silly reasons (such no snowmobiles for a cache in Florida). The implementation of attributes and attribute search make addition of new attributes a pain.

 

What the site should've done is allow tagging of caches (either by the owner or maybe by anyone looking at the cache). A set of standard tags would provide some standardization, but anyone could add any new tag. Tags that are useful would get used more. A tag cloud search would allow people to find caches with the tag, with popular tags being more prominent. A more general search could be used in the Pocket Queries to find caches that have a particular tag or set of tags. You could even allow logic expressions for more complex searches. For those that want a graphic of "important" attributes, some of the standard tags could be assigned an icon and the system could create a graphic with these. (One could even generate the tags for existing caches using the current attributes).

 

Keeping it in the attributes saves modifying all exisiting caches.

Existing caches would still have to go back and add the new attribute.

 

I would also enlist community help in applying attributes to old caches a system where when you log a cache you can tick which attributes apply (make this optional from user preferences) would soon get the older caches labelled correctly.

 

You would probably need a lock after 4 or 5 people have nominated appropriate attributes and a these attributes are wrong button to report mischief as well

Since attributes are messed up already, I wouldn't want someone other than the cache owner changing the attributes. Non-owner tagging of caches might work, if implemented properly. Note that some of the objections people have with public bookmarks might apply to non-owner tags (for example the tag might be a spoiler). It might be reasonable to allow searching by non-owner tags but not to display non-owner tags on the page.

 

I think group managed bookmark lists are another option. They would work like Waymarking groups. Anyone could nominate a cache to be added to a bookmark list and the group managers would decide if the cache belonged in the list or not.

 

Having said all that im sticking with reading cache pages

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All the suggestions about attributes still won't solve the problem of being able to PQ night caches. Yes, reading the cache description should be done whenever you plan to find a cache physically, but I don't think it's what we like to do to find a cache we want to go find...the reason for being able to do a PQ in the first place maybe??

 

Re-working the attribute system seems an awful lot more work than giving the night caches their own icon IMHO. Anyone with a night cache would likely love to go back and re-classify their caches since we would love to get people to visit our caches (at night as they were intended).

 

All I really want is to be able to quickly and easily identify a night cache when I'm looking for caches to find. If I'm searching for a bunch of caches to go find while vacationing elsewhere, it would be nice to just be able to pull up the map and see the icons there so I can choose what I'm interested in! The map feature is really the one tool I use most often to figure out what caches and I want to find and where. Considering the outcry when the map feature was down, I'm guessing I'm not alone!

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All the suggestions about attributes still won't solve the problem of being able to PQ night caches. Yes, reading the cache description should be done whenever you plan to find a cache physically, but I don't think it's what we like to do to find a cache we want to go find...the reason for being able to do a PQ in the first place maybe??

 

Re-working the attribute system seems an awful lot more work than giving the night caches their own icon IMHO. Anyone with a night cache would likely love to go back and re-classify their caches since we would love to get people to visit our caches (at night as they were intended).

 

All I really want is to be able to quickly and easily identify a night cache when I'm looking for caches to find. If I'm searching for a bunch of caches to go find while vacationing elsewhere, it would be nice to just be able to pull up the map and see the icons there so I can choose what I'm interested in! The map feature is really the one tool I use most often to figure out what caches and I want to find and where. Considering the outcry when the map feature was down, I'm guessing I'm not alone!

I'm guessing you are not alone. There aren't many night caches and they take at least a little bit of planing and preparation to do. So the people who like doing would like a better way to find out where they are. Certainly having their own icon on a map is one way to see where they are. I suspect it might not be a good way since there are so few of them.

 

I continue to believe that the best way to find night cache is to use a bookmark list. This is also a better solution because it is a generic solution. It works not only for night caches but for any other special type of cache that someone would be interested in finding. Some people want to find cave caches, or library caches, or caches that require you bring the right kind of TOTT, or any other attribute you can think of that makes a cache special. Start a bookmark list for cache of that type in your area and encourage this in other areas. What Groundspeak should do is provide the ability to search for bookmark lists by keyword and location. Then you can find bookmark lists for night caches in the areas you visit. Also provided a way to have group management of bookmark lists to allow the community to build bookmark lists of night caches or any other type of cache. If Joe the cacher knows of some night cache that isn't on the local list he can nominate it and the list owner/manager could add the nominated cache to the list with a mouse click.

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All the suggestions about attributes still won't solve the problem of being able to PQ night caches. Yes, reading the cache description should be done whenever you plan to find a cache physically, but I don't think it's what we like to do to find a cache we want to go find...the reason for being able to do a PQ in the first place maybe??

 

Re-working the attribute system seems an awful lot more work than giving the night caches their own icon IMHO. Anyone with a night cache would likely love to go back and re-classify their caches since we would love to get people to visit our caches (at night as they were intended).

 

All I really want is to be able to quickly and easily identify a night cache when I'm looking for caches to find. If I'm searching for a bunch of caches to go find while vacationing elsewhere, it would be nice to just be able to pull up the map and see the icons there so I can choose what I'm interested in! The map feature is really the one tool I use most often to figure out what caches and I want to find and where. Considering the outcry when the map feature was down, I'm guessing I'm not alone!

I'm guessing you are not alone. There aren't many night caches and they take at least a little bit of planing and preparation to do. So the people who like doing would like a better way to find out where they are. Certainly having their own icon on a map is one way to see where they are. I suspect it might not be a good way since there are so few of them.

 

I continue to believe that the best way to find night cache is to use a bookmark list. This is also a better solution because it is a generic solution. It works not only for night caches but for any other special type of cache that someone would be interested in finding. Some people want to find cave caches, or library caches, or caches that require you bring the right kind of TOTT, or any other attribute you can think of that makes a cache special. Start a bookmark list for cache of that type in your area and encourage this in other areas. What Groundspeak should do is provide the ability to search for bookmark lists by keyword and location. Then you can find bookmark lists for night caches in the areas you visit. Also provided a way to have group management of bookmark lists to allow the community to build bookmark lists of night caches or any other type of cache. If Joe the cacher knows of some night cache that isn't on the local list he can nominate it and the list owner/manager could add the nominated cache to the list with a mouse click.

 

When I know I'm going to an area, I pull up the map and use that tool to find whatever caches I might want to do. I can sort them merely by the diff/terr level and the type. Now, there's been several times that I've been camping and wished I knew if the area had a night cache. I wouldn't be left wondering this had there been an icon just like the ?, the multi, traditional etc. If I have to open each cache to decide what it's attributes are, I'm not really getting very far very fast. Same with the bookmarks.

 

Another problem with the bookmarks, you're relying on all owners to know the bookmarks list exists...or finders. Not much help IMHO

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As a member of a team that caches exclusively at night, I would be completetly for creating an icon that makes it simple to search for night time only caches. Granted that most of the caches that we find are normal caches that can be found any time of the day, night time only caches are some of my favorite (but they are very hard to search for).

 

When my team and I decide to go caching it's usually a spur of the moment thing that doesn't involve a whole lot of planing and it would make things ifinitely easier if we didn't have to search through a million caches just to find a night one.

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As a member of a team that caches exclusively at night, I would be completetly for creating an icon that makes it simple to search for night time only caches. Granted that most of the caches that we find are normal caches that can be found any time of the day, night time only caches are some of my favorite (but they are very hard to search for).

 

When my team and I decide to go caching it's usually a spur of the moment thing that doesn't involve a whole lot of planing and it would make things ifinitely easier if we didn't have to search through a million caches just to find a night one.

 

I agree completely!

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When I know I'm going to an area, I pull up the map and use that tool to find whatever caches I might want to do.
Which map? The maps on GC.com?

 

I can sort them merely by the diff/terr level and the type. Now, there's been several times that I've been camping and wished I knew if the area had a night cache. I wouldn't be left wondering this had there been an icon just like the ?, the multi, traditional etc. If I have to open each cache to decide what it's attributes are, I'm not really getting very far very fast. Same with the bookmarks.

If you are talking about the maps on GC.com, then you certainly can do what you're asking with attributes.

 

It's fairly simple. Create a PQ which returns only those caches that have the "night-time only" attribute set. Click on the map icon on PQ list page. Bingo! You would have a map of all caches within the search range that have that attribute set.

 

The failure is not that there is not a Night Cache category, it's that there is not a night-only attribute and none of the attributes are exported in a PQ.

 

Before you jump on the angle of using maps offline and icons: in GSAK you could create custom filters that included considerations of attributes to create custom icons. You could create you own categories like "Recommended at Night," "Night-time Only," "Not at Night." You can create fifty categories if you wanted.

 

We could leverage whatever we wanted if only we were given the tools.

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When I know I'm going to an area, I pull up the map and use that tool to find whatever caches I might want to do.
Which map? The maps on GC.com?

 

I can sort them merely by the diff/terr level and the type. Now, there's been several times that I've been camping and wished I knew if the area had a night cache. I wouldn't be left wondering this had there been an icon just like the ?, the multi, traditional etc. If I have to open each cache to decide what it's attributes are, I'm not really getting very far very fast. Same with the bookmarks.

If you are talking about the maps on GC.com, then you certainly can do what you're asking with attributes.

 

It's fairly simple. Create a PQ which returns only those caches that have the "night-time only" attribute set. Click on the map icon on PQ list page. Bingo! You would have a map of all caches within the search range that have that attribute set.

 

The failure is not that there is not a Night Cache category, it's that there is not a night-only attribute and none of the attributes are exported in a PQ.

 

Before you jump on the angle of using maps offline and icons: in GSAK you could create custom filters that included considerations of attributes to create custom icons. You could create you own categories like "Recommended at Night," "Night-time Only," "Not at Night." You can create fifty categories if you wanted.

 

We could leverage whatever we wanted if only we were given the tools.

 

THANKS! :unsure: I'll have to check that out, but I'm pretty slow when it comes to computers. I just now learned how to add pictures to my posts (and that's about as straight forward as it gets). If only there were an easier way.....

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It would only change older cache finds to the new icon if there was a way to update older caches to have the icon.

 

As I have mentioned before the website has issues with a hodge-podge mix of older caches that have other icons or other requirements that don't match with current guidlines thanks to grandfathering. I'm all in favor of grandfathering over archiving a cache, but when they change the way a cache should be listed and add new types, they should update (or have owners update) cache listing to meet the new guidelines. I hate going and looking for a cache that says "traditional" that turns out to be a offset or a multi but has been allowed to retain "traditional" simply because it is old. They don't even have a means for updating the cache icon if you want to try an be compliant so the blame lays squarely on the shoulders of TPTB.

 

Personally I'd love a night-cache icon, though a nice tagging system might be more practical and more useful in the long run.

 

AK

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I think a night caching icon would be good if there are specifics suggested for distinguishing a night cache from a traditional cache that is available 24 hours.

 

I hate it when cachers tear up the area searching for my caches at night. I'd rather they spend there time searching for caches that are intended to be found in the dark after hours.

 

So yes, I support a night caching icon.

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I've never done any night caching. Heck...I never knew such an activity existed until I saw this thread. I started out reading the thread but I was surprised at the number of responses it received, so I didn't read the whol thing. However, it is obviously a hot topic with some people.

 

I did catch the part suggesting a "flashlight" for an icon. However, I find that I use my flashlight quite often even during the day when I'm hunting, so instead of using a flashlight for an icon, how about something more appropriate? My first thought was a crescent moon. The only drawback to that is that some folks might assume that there's an outhouse or porta-potty nearby...LOL!!

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