Night Cache Icon

[+RufferThanYou]

I recently contacted Groundspeak with a suggestion that quite possibly has already been discussed here. They suggested that since this affected all geocachers that I should post my idea here anyway. I approached them with the idea of establishing a new icon, a flashlight perhaps, to represent night geocache courses. Another geocacher and I are currently working on setting one up in the St. Louis area and I know they are gaining popularity throughout geoland. My thought was that since this is indeed a numbers game for many, perhaps the number of night courses for many would be a badge of honor if you will. Would anyone else like to see this happen or would there be a downfall to it that I'm just not seeing? I know a lot of work goes into not only placing these courses, but finding the cache at the end as well. I think the new icon would encourage others to become more creative in their nighttime efforts and would just be another fun addition to geocaching! Please offer any support or feedback here please. Thanks! Perhaps if enough people are in favor of the idea and respond, we can see this new icon come to fruition! I believe it meets all of the criteria for a geocache.

[+webscouter.]

I recently contacted Groundspeak with a suggestion that quite possibly has already been discussed here. They suggested that since this affected all geocachers that I should post my idea here anyway. I approached them with the idea of establishing a new icon, a flashlight perhaps, to represent night geocache courses. Another geocacher and I are currently working on setting one up in the St. Louis area and I know they are gaining popularity throughout geoland. My thought was that since this is indeed a numbers game for many, perhaps the number of night courses for many would be a badge of honor if you will. Would anyone else like to see this happen or would there be a downfall to it that I'm just not seeing? I know a lot of work goes into not only placing these courses, but finding the cache at the end as well. I think the new icon would encourage others to become more creative in their nighttime efforts and would just be another fun addition to geocaching! Please offer any support or feedback here please. Thanks! Perhaps if enough people are in favor of the idea and respond, we can see this new icon come to fruition! I believe it meets all of the criteria for a geocache.

 

The common consensus here I think is that the cache type is still a traditional cache. The method of hunting it is unique but in the end you still have a traditional, multi, letterbox or offset cache. There is an attribute for night caching.

 

The argument against making a different cache type for an unique method of hunting is soon you would have cache types for scuba, 4x4, climbing, spelunking, helicopter etc caches. Too many cache types when the same effect can be achieved with attributes.

[+hydnsek]

I recently contacted Groundspeak with a suggestion that quite possibly has already been discussed here. They suggested that since this affected all geocachers that I should post my idea here anyway. I approached them with the idea of establishing a new icon, a flashlight perhaps, to represent night geocache courses. Another geocacher and I are currently working on setting one up in the St. Louis area and I know they are gaining popularity throughout geoland. My thought was that since this is indeed a numbers game for many, perhaps the number of night courses for many would be a badge of honor if you will. Would anyone else like to see this happen or would there be a downfall to it that I'm just not seeing? I know a lot of work goes into not only placing these courses, but finding the cache at the end as well. I think the new icon would encourage others to become more creative in their nighttime efforts and would just be another fun addition to geocaching! Please offer any support or feedback here please. Thanks! Perhaps if enough people are in favor of the idea and respond, we can see this new icon come to fruition! I believe it meets all of the criteria for a geocache.

 

The common consensus here I think is that the cache type is still a traditional cache. The method of hunting it is unique but in the end you still have a traditional, multi, letterbox or offset cache. There is an attribute for night caching.

 

The argument against making a different cache type for an unique method of hunting is soon you would have cache types for scuba, 4x4, climbing, spelunking, helicopter etc caches. Too many cache types when the same effect can be achieved with attributes.

What he said. Night caches have been around for years, can be traditional/multi/puzzle/etc, and the "Recommended at night" attribute flags the night cache aspect.

[+The Jester]

What he said. Night caches have been around for years, can be traditional/multi/puzzle/etc, and the "Recommended at night" attribute flags the night cache aspect.

Unfortunately, the "Recommended at night" attribute isn't used only on Night caches, sometimes other caches are suitable for hunting at night. It would be nice to have an icon/attribute for "night only".

[+tozainamboku]

There aren't all that many night caches and that is probably what makes the ones that are there so popular. If night cache had there own icons than you might get the icon hunters hiding more night caches just to get the icon. Of course you might not - I don't see a lot of letterbox hybrids just to get the icon. But in my opinion a lot of night caches (of the reflective tacks or tape type) would not be a good idea. I don't consider most of the these geocaches as the use of GPS is not really integral to finding the cache. Mostly you go someplace and then follow the trail of reflective markers till you get to the cache. I've always suspected that this idea was borrowed from letterboxing and there were probably night letterboxes that used this technique before caches. Instead of creating new icons for non-caches, I'd prefer that those who like night caches adopt a naming convention to show their cache is meant to be done at night. Or start a bookmark list of night caches and add your cache to it. Then when someone discovered a night cache in your area they would have a list of others nearby they could look for if they wanted.

[+Okiebryan]

Last time I hid a night cache the reviewer forced me to list it as a puzzle/mystery cache. I posted it in February and it's only been found 3 times.

 

Most people around here see the ? and avoid the cache. Not many like puzzle caches, and I think this one should have been posted as a trad with the attribute for not available 24 hours, and recommended at night. I've been very disappointed in the reception it has received as I was made to list it.

[+briansnat]

Last time I hid a night cache the reviewer forced me to list it as a puzzle/mystery cache. I posted it in February and it's only been found 3 times.

 

Most people around here see the ? and avoid the cache. Not many like puzzle caches, and I think this one should have been posted as a trad with the attribute for not available 24 hours, and recommended at night. I've been very disappointed in the reception it has received as I was made to list it.

 

If the cache was at the posted coordinates then it certainly should have been listed as a traditional. If not, then the reviewer was right about it being a puzzle/mystery.

[Clan Riffster]

This has been brought up before, and my feelings haven't changed. It is my opinion that night caches are distinct enough to warrant their own icon. At the time, TPTB didn't agree. Hopefully they'll be more receptive this time around.

[+Rockin Roddy]

There aren't all that many night caches and that is probably what makes the ones that are there so popular. If night cache had there own icons than you might get the icon hunters hiding more night caches just to get the icon. Of course you might not - I don't see a lot of letterbox hybrids just to get the icon. But in my opinion a lot of night caches (of the reflective tacks or tape type) would not be a good idea. I don't consider most of the these geocaches as the use of GPS is not really integral to finding the cache. Mostly you go someplace and then follow the trail of reflective markers till you get to the cache. I've always suspected that this idea was borrowed from letterboxing and there were probably night letterboxes that used this technique before caches. Instead of creating new icons for non-caches, I'd prefer that those who like night caches adopt a naming convention to show their cache is meant to be done at night. Or start a bookmark list of night caches and add your cache to it. Then when someone discovered a night cache in your area they would have a list of others nearby they could look for if they wanted.

 

Now wait a minute...Just because some night caches don't require much use of GPS doesn't mean ALL night caches are the same. I just set up a 6 stage multi night cache where you MUST use your GPS several times throughout the search as well as find your way with a flashlight on some of the stages....please don't call my CACHE a non-cache! All I can say is it's a 4 diff and that's not over-rated IMHO! A 2 mile walk through a huge park, the trails are well groomed...but the surprises? HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!

 

Still in the final stages of publishing (it's been OK'd, just waiting for the event date to publish...and tweaking the listing), so I can't give you the waypoint...I guess you'll have to either believe me or not! It's listed as a multi (mainly beacause it is a multi and not a puzzle), the coords will take you to the trailhead where you search out the tacks via flashlight until you get to the first stage. From there, you'll alternate between GPS usage and flashlight usage until you reach the final which will be given via coords...but a flashlight and some searching might be required!

 

We'll be leading a group out for the FTF after our event (mainly in it's honor lol) to see if it's set up well. I hope we're not there all night!! I'll post the cache here when published so we can all see if it's well received!

 

ooops...and to stay on topic, I would be in favor of a night cache icon as these caches won't get hit as much since they're either forced to be listed as puzzle or multi or some other catagory. There aren't many night caches around here, but the one I found is a favorite of a lot of people. I wouldn't have known about it even being a night cache (as most newbs likely wouldn't) until a friend invited us to join them for the search! That's also another reason I like night caches....many people will band together to grab one of these giving a chance for comraderie!

Edited October 8, 2008 by Rockin Roddy

[+vw_k]

The common consensus here I think is that the cache type is still a traditional cache. The method of hunting it is unique but in the end you still have a traditional, multi, letterbox or offset cache. There is an attribute for night caching.

 

The argument against making a different cache type for an unique method of hunting is soon you would have cache types for scuba, 4x4, climbing, spelunking, helicopter etc caches. Too many cache types when the same effect can be achieved with attributes.

 

Agreed, a night cache is just a cache that needs some kind of special equipment to find it (usually just a good torch) and in all other aspects can be listed as another type, usually a mystery but I have seen fire track trails listed as multis as they are offset from the start co-ords.

 

If we start creating cache types for night caches then surely climbing, boating etc caches should have a cache type as well. Where would it stop? Everything you need to describe a cache can be put in the attributes and the cache description.

 

Last time I hid a night cache the reviewer forced me to list it as a puzzle/mystery cache. I posted it in February and it's only been found 3 times.

 

Most people around here see the ? and avoid the cache. Not many like puzzle caches, and I think this one should have been posted as a trad with the attribute for not available 24 hours, and recommended at night. I've been very disappointed in the reception it has received as I was made to list it.

 

If the cache wasn't at the published co-ordinates then it isn't a traditional cache, if it is offset by following a fire tack trail or some other means then it would ne a myspery/puzzle or a multi. Does the cache have "night cache" in the title? This may catch the attention of people who would otherwise ignore it.

 

There is a night cache near me listed as a mystery cache (GC12XFP) (currently disabled for maintenance) that has had plenty of visitors, if a cache is really good fun like this one, word soon gets around the local caching community and people will visit.

[+Rockin Roddy]

What he said. Night caches have been around for years, can be traditional/multi/puzzle/etc, and the "Recommended at night" attribute flags the night cache aspect.

Unfortunately, the "Recommended at night" attribute isn't used only on Night caches, sometimes other caches are suitable for hunting at night. It would be nice to have an icon/attribute for "night only".

 

I agree with the Jester here. The attributes aren't even known by some newbs (maybe most???), some people never even think to check the attributes. I made sure to name mine GOODNIGHT ______ to help clue people in, but that won't help much either!

 

I'd bet there are a lot of people out there that don't even know about a real night cache. Many people think it's just finding regular caches at night!

[+SUp3rFM & Cruella]

Last time I hid a night cache the reviewer forced me to list it as a puzzle/mystery cache. I posted it in February and it's only been found 3 times.

 

Most people around here see the ? and avoid the cache. Not many like puzzle caches, and I think this one should have been posted as a trad with the attribute for not available 24 hours, and recommended at night. I've been very disappointed in the reception it has received as I was made to list it.

 

If the cache was at the posted coordinates then it certainly should have been listed as a traditional. If not, then the reviewer was right about it being a puzzle/mystery.

 

But, if there's an Additional Logging Requirement such as "The hunt can only be performed at night, upload a photo at the time of the hunt - night only" the reviewer was correct, right? Even if the geocache was hidden at the given coordinates.

 

Think there's no need for a new icon, maybe there's very tiny room for a clarification of the icon "Recommended at Night".

 

Still, if the cache is clearly to be hunted at night, it's certainly very clear in the description.

[+Rockin Roddy]

The common consensus here I think is that the cache type is still a traditional cache. The method of hunting it is unique but in the end you still have a traditional, multi, letterbox or offset cache. There is an attribute for night caching.

 

The argument against making a different cache type for an unique method of hunting is soon you would have cache types for scuba, 4x4, climbing, spelunking, helicopter etc caches. Too many cache types when the same effect can be achieved with attributes.

 

Agreed, a night cache is just a cache that needs some kind of special equipment to find it (usually just a good torch) and in all other aspects can be listed as another type, usually a mystery but I have seen fire track trails listed as multis as they are offset from the start co-ords.

 

If we start creating cache types for night caches then surely climbing, boating etc caches should have a cache type as well. Where would it stop? Everything you need to describe a cache can be put in the attributes and the cache description.

 

Last time I hid a night cache the reviewer forced me to list it as a puzzle/mystery cache. I posted it in February and it's only been found 3 times.

 

Most people around here see the ? and avoid the cache. Not many like puzzle caches, and I think this one should have been posted as a trad with the attribute for not available 24 hours, and recommended at night. I've been very disappointed in the reception it has received as I was made to list it.

 

If the cache wasn't at the published co-ordinates then it isn't a traditional cache, if it is offset by following a fire tack trail or some other means then it would ne a myspery/puzzle or a multi. Does the cache have "night cache" in the title? This may catch the attention of people who would otherwise ignore it.

 

There is a night cache near me listed as a mystery cache (GC12XFP) (currently disabled for maintenance) that has had plenty of visitors, if a cache is really good fun like this one, word soon gets around the local caching community and people will visit.

 

Since it's needing special equipment (flashlight) does this make it a 5 star???

 

As to the cache being really good/word gets out comment...how do you get the people there to spread the word? Putting the NIGHT CACHE in the name might help, but an icon would assure people knew it was there. You got a special icon for an APE cache and that made them very popular even though they were a regular cache...

 

And for S&C...if people ignore the listing simply because of the ? or multi icon, the description won't make much difference!

[+vw_k]

Since it's needing special equipment (flashlight) does this make it a 5 star???

 

As to the cache being really good/word gets out comment...how do you get the people there to spread the word? Putting the NIGHT CACHE in the name might help, but an icon would assure people knew it was there. You got a special icon for an APE cache and that made them very popular even though they were a regular cache...

 

And for S&C...if people ignore the listing simply because of the ? or multi icon, the description won't make much difference!

 

I personally wouldn't consider the need for a torch enough to make a cache a 5 star, a torch for night caches or a walking stick to reach a cache are accessible to the average person and don't need any training to use, "special equipment" in my opinion means climbing/diving equipment or use of a boat or similar. Things that not everyone will have or be able to use.

 

Do cachers in your area not even look at new cache listings if they are mysterys? If I see a new cache published I will at least look at the page before deciding wether to ignore it or not. If people are so uninterested in other types of cache that they don't even view pages of other caches then it is this attitude that is the problem and needs addressing, they are missing out on alot of great caches and variety. Would this sort of cacher even bother doing your cache RR? Even if they were aware of it?

[+Rockin Roddy]

Since it's needing special equipment (flashlight) does this make it a 5 star???

 

As to the cache being really good/word gets out comment...how do you get the people there to spread the word? Putting the NIGHT CACHE in the name might help, but an icon would assure people knew it was there. You got a special icon for an APE cache and that made them very popular even though they were a regular cache...

 

And for S&C...if people ignore the listing simply because of the ? or multi icon, the description won't make much difference!

 

I personally wouldn't consider the need for a torch enough to make a cache a 5 star, a torch for night caches or a walking stick to reach a cache are accessible to the average person and don't need any training to use, "special equipment" in my opinion means climbing/diving equipment or use of a boat or similar. Things that not everyone will have or be able to use.

 

Do cachers in your area not even look at new cache listings if they are mysterys? If I see a new cache published I will at least look at the page before deciding wether to ignore it or not. If people are so uninterested in other types of cache that they don't even view pages of other caches then it is this attitude that is the problem and needs addressing, they are missing out on alot of great caches and variety. Would this sort of cacher even bother doing your cache RR? Even if they were aware of it?

 

My 5 star comment was tongue in cheek lol

 

I'm not overly worried about my area since YES, plenty of people will see the new listing and will then know of the night cache. Some areas don't have a lot of locals, so this might not be the case everywhere.

Since I'm also hosting an event in the night cache's honor and we'll even hunt the cache after the event, I know people will know of my cache...this isn't true everywhere though and not everyone can host an event just to advertise their cache!

 

You say the lack of interest in this type (?) might be the problem and need addressing?? You should check out a 10 mile radius of my home coords (ask if you'd like, I'll supply them for you)...my first page of unfound hides is 70% ?. The next several pages also have a lot of ?. There are more ? caches here than I've seen anywhere else since a select couple of cachers seem to hide mainly those puzzles. Many around here have grown tired of seeing these ? and even ask that new hides in parks we pull our caches from be NO-PUZZLE hides! We even had a few cachers host an event and/or hide a seed cache giving out containers with the only request being NO puzzle hides with those containers!! It's a problem...can you give me a solution to this??

[Thore]

...snip...

If the cache was at the posted coordinates then it certainly should have been listed as a traditional. If not, then the reviewer was right about it being a puzzle/mystery.

 

But, if there's an Additional Logging Requirement such as "The hunt can only be performed at night, upload a photo at the time of the hunt - night only" the reviewer was correct, right? Even if the geocache was hidden at the given coordinates.

 

...snip...

 

Still, if the cache is clearly to be hunted at night, it's certainly very clear in the description.

 

Intersting, I have seen Nightcaches listed as Multi-Caches only so far (locally here in GER). But then I usually filter Mystery Caches out, unless Bonus or finals for series.

Extra Icon? No. Simplicity is one of GC main strengths. Combine that with the amount of variation you get in hides (and people) and you get a great hobby. No need to make matters more complicated, IMO.

Thore

 

P.S.: Chess is another example. Most simple rules and huge complexity when played well and seriously thought about.

[+Rockin Roddy]

Also, I don't check out too many ? caches even if they are new. As I said, they come out fairly often here and are usually by the same select few. I go out caching for the scenery, the walk and to get some fresh air...not to be schooled or to be made to feel ignorant because I can't figure out what that completely black cache description page is trying to get me to find.

 

I also hate when you have to do a lot of math or decrypting of strange signs and such...I'm here for fun not go to school. One physics teacher placed a cahe near here where you found a cannon and then had to figure trajectory, velocity etc etc to estimate where the shell would land...that's where the container was??? I'm not into this stuff! I know others are, but not around here and not me!

[+vw_k]

RR, there are alot of ? caches near me too, thanks to one a few prolific puzzle cache setters (one of whom is a university professor, and it shows!)

 

As a result a series was created by other cachers called "RTB" (re-address the balance) to place more traditional caches in a ? heavy area.

 

I think the best way of finding out where good caches are and to get recommendations of which caches to do and not to do is being involved in the local caching community. Everyone talks about the good caches, and after your event I'm sure your night cache will be well known.

 

As well as the current cache types and attributes, communication and community are the best way of knowing where the worthwhile caches are.

[+Rockin Roddy]

RR, there are alot of ? caches near me too, thanks to one a few prolific puzzle cache setters (one of whom is a university professor, and it shows!)

 

As a result a series was created by other cachers called "RTB" (re-address the balance) to place more traditional caches in a ? heavy area.

 

I think the best way of finding out where good caches are and to get recommendations of which caches to do and not to do is being involved in the local caching community. Everyone talks about the good caches, and after your event I'm sure your night cache will be well known.

 

As well as the current cache types and attributes, communication and community are the best way of knowing where the worthwhile caches are.

 

I'm the Southeast Regional V.P. for MiGO (Michigan Geocaching Org), so yes, I know about caching communities. Unfortunately, not all cachers like to join clubs, are comfortable around other people or want to ask questions like you or I might! I know a bunch of cachers around here merely by names in the logs as they don't like to be seen or talk with others...one cacher here has never been seen by anyone I know (and I know a LOT of people)...even though he showed up at one of my events (or at least logged as showing up) Just because we like to mingle with others doesn't mean everyone does.

 

As I said before, had a fellow cacher not asked us to join them for the night cache, I wouldn't even have known about them at all. Night caching before that meant we went out after regular caches at night! I'd even heard people talking about night caches, thought they went after the caches at night as I had said we did...didn't know it meant there were caches exclusive to the night! The night cache we found was only 20 or so miles from my home, but was published before I started caching, so no notice of new cache.

 

Think of it like this, how many 5/5 caches do you know about in your area?? You can do a search and single out these caches unlike night caches where the use of the attributes might not mean night cache since flashlights are needed in caves, inside dark hollow trees etc. I've seen caches where the use of a flashlight was needed even in daylight! Since the moon attribute could mean you can hunt this after dark, it's not an indicator of a night cache exclusively. I've seen this used widely as a way to tell people the cache was night friendly...doesn't mean it's a night cache though!

[Skippermark]

I approached them with the idea of establishing a new icon, a flashlight perhaps, to represent night geocache courses.

There already is a flashlight attribute. It's under the "Special Equipment" section in the attribute page. Personally, I wouldn't consider a flashlight something that would warrant a cache being a 5 star.

 

This has been brought up before, and my feelings haven't changed. It is my opinion that night caches are distinct enough to warrant their own icon. At the time, TPTB didn't agree. Hopefully they'll be more receptive this time around.

It's tricky to know if a cache is a night cache if there's no special attributes attached to it. The new flashlight icon helps, but a lot of old caches don't show it. Around here, the goal was to have people add "by night" to any night caches, so people could just search for "night" and find all night caches. A cache might be called "Kettletown by Night" or "The Legend of the Hairy Man by Night..." something like that.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I approached them with the idea of establishing a new icon, a flashlight perhaps, to represent night geocache courses.

There already is a flashlight attribute. It's under the "Special Equipment" section in the attribute page. Personally, I wouldn't consider a flashlight something that would warrant a cache being a 5 star.

 

This has been brought up before, and my feelings haven't changed. It is my opinion that night caches are distinct enough to warrant their own icon. At the time, TPTB didn't agree. Hopefully they'll be more receptive this time around.

It's tricky to know if a cache is a night cache if there's no special attributes attached to it. The new flashlight icon helps, but a lot of old caches don't show it. Around here, the goal was to have people add "by night" to any night caches, so people could just search for "night" and find all night caches. A cache might be called "Kettletown by Night" or "The Legend of the Hairy Man by Night..." something like that.

 

Think of it like this, how many 5/5 caches do you know about in your area?? You can do a search and single out these caches unlike night caches where the use of the attributes might not mean night cache since flashlights are needed in caves, inside dark hollow trees etc. I've seen caches where the use of a flashlight was needed even in daylight! Since the moon attribute could mean you can hunt this after dark, it's not an indicator of a night cache exclusively. I've seen this used widely as a way to tell people the cache was night friendly...doesn't mean it's a night cache though!

 

Night being added to the name is a good idea, but I know of more than a few caches with night in the name. While this would be a big help, searching through several caches to find a night cache isn't really all that practical.

 

A cache needing scuba gear or other specailized equipment is easy to search for, just search 5 difficulty. No need for a special icon for those. A night cache isn't easy to search out and is a much different cache in that you can only find it at night. This should be given it's own icon! Would certainly make it easier to find when doing a search (even in the dark lol). A night cache isn't a regular, it might be a multi, but that means it's lumped into the regular multi class. It might be a puzzle, but then again, wrong class. It's a NIGHT CACHE and truly should have it's own icon IMHO.

[+The Jester]

It's tricky to know if a cache is a night cache if there's no special attributes attached to it. The new flashlight icon helps, but a lot of old caches don't show it. Around here, the goal was to have people add "by night" to any night caches, so people could just search for "night" and find all night caches. A cache might be called "Kettletown by Night" or "The Legend of the Hairy Man by Night..." something like that.

That's one idea, but my night caches would look silly with "by Night" added: Nighttime Isn't Just For Sleeping by Night and Nighttime Still Isn't Just For Sleeping by Night.

 

We do have a bookmark of night caches - but making sure that's updated takes extra work (example: I see a night cache not on the list, contact list owner, wait for him/her to update list).

[+nashuan]

I've only done one night cache (An Evening at the Improv - GC1DQJG) but had an awesome time. During the 6-stage hunt, I had to use my GPSr at each station and not just look for fire tacks along a trail; so I felt quite challenged. I am hoping to do more of these, but I don't have too many in my area, so it is easier for me just to bookmark them and tell people how many I did if I'm looking to promote my "badge of honor".

 

From my limited experience, I feel that these are about as far away from a park and grab as you can get and deserve some form of additional recognition, but as was stated previously, to give night caching special designation, would open the door for scuba caching, helecopter caching etc. In effect they are traditional or multi stage caches and should probably remain as such, though I think they should be afforded some other special status ranking.

 

As for the "special equipment" issue, I don't believe the cache should be ranked a 5 just because of the need for a flashlight/torch. I do however think it should be given a fairly high rating because of the difficulty of traversing the course and locating container(s) while doing the cache in the dark - at least a three for a decent course.

 

My area of the country is well populated enough that finding suitable places to set one up that won't alarm neighbors is difficult, but I am hoping to see more pop up where practicable. they are a welcome change of pace to the P&Gs I see so often.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I've only done one night cache (An Evening at the Improv - GC1DQJG) but had an awesome time. During the 6-stage hunt, I had to use my GPSr at each station and not just look for fire tacks along a trail; so I felt quite challenged. I am hoping to do more of these, but I don't have too many in my area, so it is easier for me just to bookmark them and tell people how many I did if I'm looking to promote my "badge of honor".

 

From my limited experience, I feel that these are about as far away from a park and grab as you can get and deserve some form of additional recognition, but as was stated previously, to give night caching special designation, would open the door for scuba caching, helecopter caching etc. In effect they are traditional or multi stage caches and should probably remain as such, though I think they should be afforded some other special status ranking.

 

As for the "special equipment" issue, I don't believe the cache should be ranked a 5 just because of the need for a flashlight/torch. I do however think it should be given a fairly high rating because of the difficulty of traversing the course and locating container(s) while doing the cache in the dark - at least a three for a decent course.

 

My area of the country is well populated enough that finding suitable places to set one up that won't alarm neighbors is difficult, but I am hoping to see more pop up where practicable. they are a welcome change of pace to the P&Gs I see so often.

 

As I said earlier, the scuba, climbing etc caches all have their own attribute which could not be mistakenly used (not very easily at least...maybe purposely??) for other caches than what they are. A cache with these attributes also require use of tools etc which helps them because they then become a 5 star. There would be no need at all to make an icon exclusively for scuba etc as they are easily searched for simply by searching 5 stars. A night cache on the other hand cannot be searched for nearly as easily, could be lost to cachers who don't do puzzles or multi's and is significantly different than a regular cache. Giving these their own icon would help cachers find them!

 

The APE caches had their own icon and they were regular caches. Since the icon was given them, they were prized finds...one I wish I had made when I had the chance!! Not saying we need to reward people with a special icon for a night cache, but being able to find one (since they are very few and far between) would be a GREAT help to cachers IMHO!

[+Dgwphotos]

 

Intersting, I have seen Nightcaches listed as Multi-Caches only so far (locally here in GER). But then I usually filter Mystery Caches out, unless Bonus or finals for series.

Extra Icon? No. Simplicity is one of GC main strengths. Combine that with the amount of variation you get in hides (and people) and you get a great hobby. No need to make matters more complicated, IMO.

Thore

 

P.S.: Chess is another example. Most simple rules and huge complexity when played well and seriously thought about.

 

I think it depends on the design of the night cache. I have one that is listed as a mystery and one that is listed as a multi. The mystery one is of the traditional type, where you follow the reflectors to the final, whereas my multi has the starting point for an ammo can that has a black light, then you follow a trail of uv paint markings to the final, so it's very similar to a standard multi stage cache except for the night part.

[+Prime Suspect]

What he said. Night caches have been around for years, can be traditional/multi/puzzle/etc, and the "Recommended at night" attribute flags the night cache aspect.

Unfortunately, the "Recommended at night" attribute isn't used only on Night caches, sometimes other caches are suitable for hunting at night. It would be nice to have an icon/attribute for "night only".

Yes, but the total number of "recommended at night" caches in an area isn't so great than one can't manually separate them. Besides, all correctly labeled night caches should be either mystery or multi, which also narrows the field down considerably. A PQ for mysteries & multis with the night attribute should be more than sufficient.

[Skippermark]

That's one idea, but my night caches would look silly with "by Night" added: Nighttime Isn't Just For Sleeping by Night and Nighttime Still Isn't Just For Sleeping by Night.

Agreed! That would look silly. Personally, I think it looks silly on a lot of caches. I think Legend of the Hairy Man sounds much better by itself. With by night at the end, it's almost like, "Huh? Is he only hair at night?"

[+Gorge_Hiker]

I would very much like to select night only caches in a query, better than just happening upon them if you want to plan some night caching.

[+Clarkbowman]

I would very much like to select night only caches in a query, better than just happening upon them if you want to plan some night caching.

 

There needs to be one.

[+DanOCan]

I don't think there needs to be a specical icon for night caches since they are already covered nicely by the cache types which already exist, whether they be Mystery or Multi. (Never seen one done as a Trad.)

 

You can already use attributes to specify the Flashlight, not available 24 hours and recommended at night. If people are too lazy to do a little research and digging to find out if there is a night cache near them then they likely don't want to do one too badly.

[+Okiebryan]

I want to make myself clear on this topic. When I first read the thread, I didn't think there was a need for a special cache type for night caches.

 

I have changed my position on this. I think it is a great idea.

[+Rockin Roddy]

I don't think there needs to be a specical icon for night caches since they are already covered nicely by the cache types which already exist, whether they be Mystery or Multi. (Never seen one done as a Trad.)

 

You can already use attributes to specify the Flashlight, not available 24 hours and recommended at night. If people are too lazy to do a little research and digging to find out if there is a night cache near them then they likely don't want to do one too badly.

 

OR, they might not know how to do a search or just don't want to deal with the hassles of doing a search in this manner. Believe it or not, there's many of us that merely bring up the closest to home list or use the map it feature to find caches. It's not a matter of being too lazy, it's a matter of convenience.

[+Okiebryan]

... If people are too lazy to do a little research and digging to find out if there is a night cache near them then they likely don't want to do one too badly.

 

Pardon me for saying so, but this sounds a little...I don't know... elitist?

[+The Jester]

I don't think there needs to be a specical icon for night caches since they are already covered nicely by the cache types which already exist, whether they be Mystery or Multi. (Never seen one done as a Trad.)

 

You can already use attributes to specify the Flashlight, not available 24 hours and recommended at night. If people are too lazy to do a little research and digging to find out if there is a night cache near them then they likely don't want to do one too badly.

Not everyone does all their searching/planning online - attributes are NOT included in the GPX files, so there is no way to find them in a PQ of an area (unless you 'spend' a PQ on just night caches for each area).

[Clan Riffster]

I was leaning toward "rude", but maybe I'm just overly sensitive today.

 

I doubt that Groundspeak will make it happen in the foreseeable future, but I still think a unique night cache icon would be a neat idea. Ape caches got their own icon, and they were typically nothing but traditionals stuffed with paraphernalia from a cheesy movie. Two of my three night caches incorporate both puzzle aspects and multi cache aspects, and as such, could go either way. (I picked puzzle) I believe that night caches are critters unique unto themselves, and as such, worthy of their own icon.

[+DanOCan]

... If people are too lazy to do a little research and digging to find out if there is a night cache near them then they likely don't want to do one too badly.

 

Pardon me for saying so, but this sounds a little...I don't know... elitist?

 

Yeah, maybe.

 

There are many different types of caches and where do you draw the line for what deserves an icon and what doesn't?

 

As I said, if someone wants to have a specific type of cache experience they should be prepared to do a little research and digging to find what they want. If you don't want to do a search online so they can use attributes or use a PQ to search through caches I don't think spending website resources is the best way to spend the resources.

 

Elitist? Rude? Call it what you want -- I work in I.T. and I see requests on a daily basis because people want technology to solve all of their problems for them instead of being willing to put a little elbow grease in themselves.

 

The original question was do night caches need their own icon and I stand by my answer of "No."

[+River Cacher]

I would love to see this put in place because I love to night cache and doing a quarry would be neat for night caching.

I am working on some night caches and I was going to do them as a multi cache and give the coords at the first cache so you can find it by day or use your lights for night.

If this does go through I would be out there putting up several night caches in my area.

I have not done any yet but I have spoke to my reviewer about them.

I am going to wait and see what happens here before I do any.

[+RufferThanYou]

This is exactly what I was hoping would happen when I posted this. A good old fashioned debate. Having read all of the threads, I still hold on to the belief that the night cache icon would be a good idea. I understand the thought process behind "where do you draw the line" on icons. I think that the popularity of the specific cache type should play a key role in the decision making process by Groundspeak. While I know scuba diving/helicopter/4x4 caches are loved by many, the VAST majority of us do not scuba dive or fly helicopters. MANY of us do however have the capability to operate a flashlight; thus, the popularity of night caches is very much on the rise. Night caches are even caches that can be done by older people and in some cases even physically challenged people. My argument is that the popularity and love by MANY for these caches should be the reason an icon will be created for the night cache. Now that I so brilliantly made my case, I expect all of those nay sayers to come back to this thread and change their minds immediately! As far as not wanting to put the "WORK" into finding night caches because we may be lazy....well....ya got that right! This is a hobby for me...not a job. Anything that can make it easier why not? Its just easier to find what you are looking for rather than viewing every attribute or recommendation for the cache.

[+niraD]

The night caches I've done have been listed as Mystery Caches, with the "Recommended at Night" attribute. That has been appropriate for them. The other night caches I'm familiar with are listed as Mystery Caches, Multi-Caches, or Letterbox Hybrids, which seems appropriate too. I can imagine a night cache being listed as a Traditional, but that would be a rather exceptional night cache.

 

I don't think a night cache is a type the same way Traditional, Multi, Mystery, etc. are types. I think a night cache is more an attribute the way Scuba Gear Required, Not Wheelchair Accessible, Snowmobiles Not Allowed, etc. are attributes.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

A night cache is simply a puzzle cache that can only be done at night. Make a new attribute for this and call it good. It isn't a new "type" of cache.

[+tozainamboku]

Night caches are only one of many "special" types of caches that some cachers enjoy. What happens is that someone does a night cache once and enjoyed it so much that they want to find others to do as well. And not just night caches in their area but when they visit someplace they would like to find night caches in these places as well. But there are also people who wish to find caches hidden in cemeteries, or a historic locations, or that require you bring something special to retrieve the cache - like a gallon of water or a metal nut on a string. Some people want to find certain type of puzzle - they may not like to solve ciphers but they may like working sudoku puzzles (or visa versa). And yes there are the people who seek out caches that require scuba diving or rock climbing equipment. Giving a special icon to one "special" type will inevitably result in people demanding that every special cache get its own icon. (I want a icon for caches hidden in parking lots because I really like finding those )

 

Instead we should be looking for ways to address the issue of how does a geocacher find more caches of these special type that they would like to search for. There are several current capabilities of Geocaching.com that can be used to help find these caches if people would take advantage of them. In addition there are some things the Geocaching.com could do to make these current methods work better.

1. Bookmark Lists
   Currently, any premium member can create a public bookmark list of caches for any "special" type they want. In fact, I suspect there are many lists of night caches already. If there is not one in your area and you are a premium member I would suggest you start one. Of course, until there is a way to search for bookmark lists, you have to find a night cache that is already on the list to find the list itself. Groundspeak should provide a way to search for bookmark list by keyword and location of the caches in the list to make this easier. I would also suggest having group managed bookmark lists that work like Waymarking categories where the group members can share the work of maintaining the lists. Perhaps even allowing anyone to nominate caches to go on a list where the group managers check the cache to verify it belongs.
   
2. Cache Attributes
   The current "Recommended At Night" attribute can include caches that can be done in the daytime and other caches that are not classic night caches. However, I think that most people are simply looking for caches that can be done at night. Perhaps these are people who don't have time to cache during the daytime. This attribute should be put on all classic night caches since they are best found at night. I have heard of people finding reflective tack type caches during the day. It is difficult but not impossible to search for the tacks as you travel down a trail, backtracking when necessary to find which way to go at a fork. With the addition of the flashlight required attribute, I would guess that you would get a list that is mostly night caches. Premium members can currently search by attributes. If night cache hiders used the Recommended at Night and Flashlight Required attributes, a premium member could get a pocket query with all the night caches in a area and only a few caches that might be simple traditionals hidden in dark places.
   
3. Cache Keyword Names
   Adoption by the community of standard naming convention for night caches would allow the use of keyword search to find these. This has been adopted in some area to highlight cemetery caches and with less success travel bug hotels. Discussion in the forums could lead to a convention for naming night caches. Clearly any convention would have the problem where the cache owner doesn't want to rename an old cache or even use the convention on a new cache. But the same is true for a cache type. Older caches would still be listed under the old type and some cache owners may prefer to have their cache listed as a mystery than as a night cache. I've see a few that want to leave it up to the finder to figure out that this is a night cache. Also what happens if you have a night cache that you wish to cross list on a letterbox site - so you've place a stamp in the final container. Do you list this as a night cache or a letterbox hybrid?
    
   Groundspeak should also improve keyword searching to allow you to search for caches with the keyword in the name withing a geographic area. Someone looking for night caches near New York City is probably not interested in seeing all the night caches in California or in Florida.
   

Adding icons for every special type that some group wants does not solve the problem they are trying to solve and may cause more problems. (The letterbox hybrid is an example because the actual type of cache that geocacher is interested is lost just to indicate that cache might also be listed on a letterboxing site). Better searching capability is really what is being asked for and if the community would adopt the some of the current capability we would be a long way toward having this already.

[+Dgwphotos]

 

The current "Recommended At Night" attribute can include caches that can be done in the daytime and other caches that are not classic night caches. However, I think that most people are simply looking for caches that can be done at night. Perhaps these are people who don't have time to cache during the daytime. This attribute should be put on all classic night caches since they are best found at night. I have heard of people finding reflective tack type caches during the day. It is difficult but not impossible to search for the tacks as you travel down a trail, backtracking when necessary to find which way to go at a fork. With the addition of the flashlight required attribute, I would guess that you would get a list that is mostly night caches. Premium members can currently search by attributes. If night cache hiders used the Recommended at Night and Flashlight Required attributes, a premium member could get a pocket query with all the night caches in a area and only a few caches that might be simple traditionals hidden in dark places.

 

 

Trouble is, attributes don't work very well in PQ's, unless TPTB have fixed them since the last time I tried using them.

[+River Cacher]

The only way i have been able to find night caches is to ask other cachers at events and most geocachers do not go to events or know how to do a quarry to find one.

It would be fair for eveyone and so easy to make the ICON

[+The Jester]

Night caches are only one of many "special" types of caches that some cachers enjoy. What happens is that someone does a night cache once and enjoyed it so much that they want to find others to do as well. And not just night caches in their area but when they visit someplace they would like to find night caches in these places as well. But there are also people who wish to find caches hidden in cemeteries, or a historic locations, or that require you bring something special to retrieve the cache - like a gallon of water or a metal nut on a string. Some people want to find certain type of puzzle - they may not like to solve ciphers but they may like working sudoku puzzles (or visa versa). And yes there are the people who seek out caches that require scuba diving or rock climbing equipment. Giving a special icon to one "special" type will inevitably result in people demanding that every special cache get its own icon.

Why have any cache type icons? They are all geocaches and with a little research you can figure out what type of cache it is - just read the cache page. Aren't we all being lazy having multi's, letterbox hybrid's, mystery, traditional and such specified for us?

 

Why have icons at all?

 

Because these icons developed as the game has progressed, to separate out the different caches from each other.This sport didn't start with a bunch of different cache types, new icons have been added as the different types were developed. Some of us believe it is time for another new one, because night caches are a breed apart.

 

As to the 'problem' of multiple types (letterbox cache to be found at night) that already exists - any cache that has an ALR is a Mystery Cache whether it's a multi, traditional or whatever. Puzzle caches can be multi's also. Meaningless argument.

[Clan Riffster]

Because these icons developed as the game has progressed, to separate out the different caches from each other.

An interesting point. I wasn't around when this game started, so I am not aware of how the icons progressed. Did we really start with just one? If so, was there all this debate when GC added the other icons? Were there icon naysayers stating we don't need an icon for multi caches? After all, it's just a traditional with more than one step. If folks would just read the cache page, they'd know that.

 

Sorry, it just struck me as funny.

[+DanOCan]

Hmm, I have an even better idea. Instead of just an icon, why don't we spin off night caches into a completely different website like what happened with Virtuals and Waymarking?

[+Parabola]

I like the idea. I love a night cache. And love it when picking up a new icon.

 

Really webcam's had there own icon, but I don't know much of the history on those. The problem I find is that the attribuites don't get into my GPS. I've got a colorado and those attrbuite icon's don't load or I should say don't show up in there. I don't remember if they did or not when I was using a plam. But I find if I am caching on the fly and not on a pre planned trip I have no idea what the attribuite are unless I have my laptop with GSAK with me which is hardly ever.

[Clan Riffster]

Instead of just an icon, why don't we spin off night caches into a completely different website?

Could we create another website for urban micro spew? Uninspiredfilmcanhides .com?

 

Legal Disclaimer: No, this was not a call to ban micros. Please put your pitchforks away.

[CoyoteRed]

I don't think a night cache is a type the same way Traditional, Multi, Mystery, etc. are types. I think a night cache is more an attribute the way Scuba Gear Required, Not Wheelchair Accessible, Snowmobiles Not Allowed, etc. are attributes.

Exactly.

 

I personally think the way the attributes were implemented was a little "off." The cache hunt modifiers were mixed in with amenities. There are attributes that modifiers, like SCUBA, climbing gear, boat, etc., that let us know what is needed to hunt the cache. Then there are attributes that are niceties, like telephone nearby, restrooms, dogs allowed, etc. I believe these should not be mixed together.

 

My personal belief is there should be two more cache categories and basically breaks out the present Unknown/Puzzle/Mystery category. "Unknown" for those caches that folks don't want to say what it is. "Mystery" for caches that have bogus starting coordinates. "Other" for the catch-all.

 

"Puzzle" shouldn't be a category because you can have puzzles in caches that are otherwise traditionals, multis, and mysteries. "Puzzle" could be a cache modifier attribute like "night cache" as a cache can be both. You can't have a cache that is both a traditional and a multi. You could conceivably have a night-only, puzzle, SCUBA, rock-climbing traditional cache. (Ummm, follow the GPS to the listed coordinate where you have to SCUBA to a open hole in the earth, then rock climb up, in the dark, and open a puzzle lock to open the cache. Yes, I know it breaks the present paradigm.)

 

So, I say "no" to a new "night-time only" cache type and say yes to fixing the present system.

[+mccall_ma&pa]

Hmm, I have an even better idea. Instead of just an icon, why don't we spin off night caches into a completely different website like what happened with Virtuals and Waymarking?

 

I like the idea of having it's own catagory also.