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Don't Confuse the Forums for Caching Reality


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I disagree with that premise - at least partially.....

 

It matters because in one form or another - some (large) amount of what we discuss here becomes a part of the guidelines and certainly becomes part of the "accepted" culture of Geocaching. Some good, some bad. We here in the forums have shaped many features and guidelines - that is a fact.

 

It doesn't matter though to the vast majority of Geocachers that largely ignore the forums and have never visited to so much as poke around and read a few posts. However - if they choose not to participate - they must live with how the debates and questions ultimately come out in the form of guidelines or broader land manager Geocaching policy.

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Time and again I keep bump into people who take time to point out that reality and the forums are so very different that the forums are best ignored. The implication is that everything we say is like political promises in a campaign year. It just doesn't matter.

 

Hmmm...

 

Geo-support issues are real world caching.

 

I can handle the various opinions and decide for myself whether or not they matter. Some do, some don't.

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What StarBrand said.

 

Silence can be mistaken for agreement.

 

The squeaky mouse gets the grease ... the early bird ... no ... the second mouse gets ... the oil ... the greasy cheese... wait, it's ... the early bird greases the wheeled mouse’s cheesy worm ...

 

Anyway, those who don't speak up can't complain that their view wasn't represented.

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Ah, I believe I just read the thread that prompted this posting. (subtitled - If you don't read the forums, do they exist?)

 

I believe it does come down to cache logging control by cache owners, gc.com policy and guidelines, and to a point community pressure.

 

How much of that came from the forums?

 

Whew, I can see things coming both ways on that one.

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What StarBrand said.

 

Silence can be mistaken for agreement.

 

The squeaky mouse gets the grease ... the early bird ... no ... the second mouse gets ... the oil ... the greasy cheese... wait, it's ... the early bird greases the wheeled mouse’s cheesy worm ...

 

Anyway, those who don't speak up can't complain that their view wasn't represented.

To a certain extent I equate this with my attitude about voting. If you don't vote then you don't have any valid reason to complain about elected officials and public policy. But of course the bulk of political opinion, and the bulk of opinions here on the forums are dominated by a vocal minority. And that vocal minority tends to be more toward the extremes than centrist.

 

And I sure don't want any squeaky, greasy, cheesy mice, birds or worms running around where I cache! :)

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Time and again I keep bump into people who take time to point out that reality and the forums are so very different that the forums are best ignored. The implication is that everything we say is like political promises in a campaign year. It just doesn't matter.

 

Hmmm...

My own perception is that the opinions stated in the forums do reflect, for the most part, fairly accurately, the seniments of the non-forum-active geo community, with the following two exceptions:

  • we seem to see, at times on the forums, voicing of some extremes of opinion that I rarely see reflected in the mainstream geo community
  • on the forums, some adherents of, or proselytizers for some positions, are far louder and noisier than seems to be the case in the mainstream geo community.

Lastly, do not underestimate the number of non-forum-active geocachers who at least visit the forums regularly to lurk and read! Whenever I attend an event, I am always approached by geocachers who are utter strangers to me, meaning that I have never seen them or met them before, and they tell me with great joy (or sometimes with guarded revulsion while vomiting propulsively) how much they enjoy my posts on the Groundspeak forum, and, upon questioning, it turns out that they have never sent a post in their life to the forum, but love to visit and simply read.

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I find it amusing that the people with the most forum posts are often the people with the least finds. I saw one with over 16,000 posts and less than 350 finds in 5 years. Arm chair quarterback.

Please do not equate "found it" logs online with geocaching experience and/or quality of forums posts. Very poor assumption.

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I find it amusing that the people with the most forum posts are often the people with the least finds. I saw one with over 16,000 posts and less than 350 finds in 5 years. Arm chair quarterback.

 

I find it amusing that anybody would judge the worth of what someone has to say by the number of finds he has.

 

Just because someone doesn't run out and lift every lamp post skirt for 20 miles and log events 50 times doesn't make what he has to say any less relevant. Some people don't have a lot of finds because they'd rather spend 2 hours finding one cache, then spend one hour finding ten.

Edited by briansnat
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Every forum on the planet, regardless of purpose, has keyboard warriors and lurkers, and middle of the road folks, and extremists, and every other thing you can think of.

 

Don't put too much stock into any single answer, unless you know and trust and respect the person. The beauty of forums lies in the ability to get a quorum of opinion and then base your inference out of that.

 

I also don't worry too much about how many posts someone has, or how few finds, or vice versa.. those who can, do, those who can't, teach.

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I can only speak to this 'Geocaching Topics' forum as I rarely venture into the other topical areas.

 

There are almost 1000 members of the Alabama Geocaching Association. It is VERY rare for me to see one of them posting in here.

 

I know that a number of them do read here, because it's not uncommon for something said here to be quoted in our forum. They just don't post here, they tell me, because they don't like the way poster's here are treated.

 

These forums are considered toxic by most of the geocachers I know... the most common comment made about our AGA forum, evidently meant as a complement, is that they are nothing like the Groundspeak forums, and folks who regularly post to ours hardly ever post here.

 

I suspect that this is true for members of many of the state associations. Go look at who regularly posts to your local forum, or to Georgia's GGA or Arkansas' Arkgeocaching forum, then look for them on here... you won't find very many of them.

 

If I am at home I am usually in both this forum and DixieCachers.com most of the day. I like them both; I post in both almost daily, but indeed they are quite different in many ways.

 

Having cached in 28 states, usually in a group of strangers newly-acquired friends, attended and hosted quite a lot of events and met a whole lot of geocachers I can say for certain that the topics designed to create controversy, the angst level, rudeness and contentiousness found in this forum are not found outside of them... you won't hear these arguments around a geocaching campfire.

 

So no, the forums do not reflect geocaching reality.

 

Look at the number of us who post here regularly - we are but a very small fraction of the overall number of geocachers.

 

I do hope that Groundspeak listens to us both here in these and the local forums, but I hope that they give much more credence to what they hear and see out in the real world! :)

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I find it amusing that the people with the most forum posts are often the people with the least finds. I saw one with over 16,000 posts and less than 350 finds in 5 years. Arm chair quarterback.

 

I find it amusing that anybody would judge the worth of what someone has to say by the number of finds he has.

 

Just because someone doesn't run out and lift every lamp post skirt for 20 miles and log events 50 times doesn't make what he has to say any less relevant. Some people don't have a lot of finds because they'd rather spend 2 hours finding one cache, then spend one hour finding ten.

I totally agree. Judging credibility by the poster's find count or post count is silly.

 

Judge posts by what they say and people by what they say and do over time that may establish (or disprove!) credibility.

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...you won't hear these arguments around a geocaching campfire.

 

No, but I do hear the same complaints I see here. The forums are just a microcosm of the community in many ways.

 

the angst level, rudeness and contentiousness found in this forum are not found outside of them

 

You haven't been around as much as you think. I know of a number of geocaching communities where there is a great deal of contentiousness. As I said the forums are a microcosm of the community. There are wonderful people here and even more wonderful people out there. Conversely there are jerks here, and even more jerks out there.

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NO NEW TAXES! BREAKS FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS!

 

- Elle

 

PS: I think internet forums are reality in a kaleidoscope. There's a reflection of truth in what we see but mostly it's a composite of fragments and mirrors to look prettier or uglier than what it is, and is changeable by the slightest move. People feel a shroud of anonymity so they abandon their manners more easily than they normally would and they feel bolder to speak out more radically than they normally would. At least, internet forums have been this way since I started getting online in 1994 and I haven't seen a bit of difference. Nothing beats in-person contact.

Edited by HauntHunters
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I find it amusing that the people with the most forum posts are often the people with the least finds. I saw one with over 16,000 posts and less than 350 finds in 5 years. Arm chair quarterback.

 

I'm sorry, you want to put up what I give to community against my find count? Maybe your find count serves people better.

Edited by BlueDeuce
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NO NEW TAXES! BREAKS FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS!

 

- Elle

 

PS: I think internet forums are reality in a kaleidoscope. There's a reflection of truth in what we see but mostly it's a composite of fragments and mirrors to look prettier or uglier than what it is, and is changeable by the slightest move. People feel a shroud of anonymity so they abandon their manners more easily than they normally would and they feel bolder to speak out more radically than they normally would. At least, internet forums have been this way since I started getting online in 1994 and I haven't seen a bit of difference. Nothing beats in-person contact.

 

Great post. I'd say it's universally true. :)

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At least, internet forums have been this way since I started getting online in 1994 and I haven't seen a bit of difference. Nothing beats in-person contact.

 

In response to the first posting I ever made in a internet forum (usenet) in 1985 I was called an a**.

 

Nevertheless, I stuck around in that forum for many years and met dozens of the the participants at real life gatherings that were organized and planned through the forum. I don't read that forum any more but I still keep in email contact with many of the people I met. Shortly after moving from California to Ithaca, NY met a woman through that forum. We've been married 9 years.

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...These forums are considered toxic by most of the geocachers I know...

 

...can say for certain that the topics designed to create controversy, the angst level, rudeness and contentiousness found in this forum are not found outside of them... you won't hear these arguments around a geocaching campfire.

AR (that is, if you really are a real Alabama Rambler, rather than just one more sock puppet account for Sionevil or flask [see footnote 1]), I often agree with your viewpoints, but in this case, I must disagree with some of your points, as copied above.

 

First, if anyone considers these forums toxic, then they have CLEARLY not been on the Internet very long and have CLEARLY not participated in many other forums or email list groups, and thus their perception is highly skewed. In other words, if this is the only forum they have ever seen, then they might indeed think that it is somewhat toxic, because they have nothing with which to compare. With just one bizarre exception (a tiny forum devoted to an excellent but short-lived sci-fi TV series), the Groundspeak forum is the mellowest and mildest forum that I have ever seen on the web. And, I speak from experience: I have visited many forums, belonged to many forums, belonged to many email list groups, and I am the owner of over 35 email list groups, some of them very large. If you wanna see rudeness, angst or contentiousness, then you may wish to check out forums (or list groups) devoted to any of the following topics, for starters:

  • scrapbooking (the hostility level in these forums grew so bad that it made the news in the mainstream press, as well as the civil courts, several times last two years alone!)
  • bible studies and bible-related discussions
  • ski forums (several times in the past few years, the level of threats and outright physical violence on these forums not only reached the criminal courts but also reached the mainstream news media...)
  • religious issues, particularly, but not limited to, the Christian evangelical movement
  • forums run by some of the Mormon (aka LDS) breakaway splinter sects, devoted to End of Times prophecies
  • forums and list groups devoted to nutrition and health, particularly in alternative health realms

And, as for the tired old argument that local forums are mellower than the Groundspeak forum, well, speaking from direct experience at both levels, I suspect that this perception is, in most cases, due to the fact that local forums are so much smaller and have so much less activity than the Groundspeak forums, in other words, the big pond versus small pond issue and the way in which it can cloud perceptions. I have addressed this issue, along with some real-world comparisons, in detail (along with examples) in past posts and will not bother to repeat myself here.

 

footnote #1: The more time that I spend on the forum, the more I become convinced that both the Alabama Rambler account and the Snoogans account are sock puppet accounts created by and puppeted by flask, or perhaps by Sionevil.

Edited by Vinny & Sue Team
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I find it amusing that the people with the most forum posts are often the people with the least finds. I saw one with over 16,000 posts and less than 350 finds in 5 years. Arm chair quarterback.

 

I find it amusing that anybody would judge the worth of what someone has to say by the number of finds he has.

 

Just because someone doesn't run out and lift every lamp post skirt for 20 miles and log events 50 times doesn't make what he has to say any less relevant. Some people don't have a lot of finds because they'd rather spend 2 hours finding one cache, then spend one hour finding ten.

Amen, brother.

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At least, internet forums have been this way since I started getting online in 1994 and I haven't seen a bit of difference. Nothing beats in-person contact.

 

In response to the first posting I ever made in a internet forum (usenet) in 1985 I was called an a**.

 

Nevertheless, I stuck around in that forum for many years and met dozens of the the participants at real life gatherings that were organized and planned through the forum. I don't read that forum any more but I still keep in email contact with many of the people I met. Shortly after moving from California to Ithaca, NY met a woman through that forum. We've been married 9 years.

 

Congratulations! Yeah, usenet is a trip, eh? I think I got on about 1993. I had a compuserve account, and my email address was like a 12 digit number. I was stalked on usenet, and this guy was absolutely suffering from an untreated mental illness. Death threats regularly occur on usenet. It's totally unmoderated, and reporting offenders to their ISP rarely has any results. Being called an a** is a good day; they can call you anything, and I mean anything.

 

I agree with Vinny, people who think these forums are toxic, have only looked at these forums, and nothing else. I'll add another one to the list. Try talking pro sports on an internet message board. Talk about toxic spewage. :laughing:

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I used to work for a company that had a forum called (of all things) Soapbox. With a company size of +100,000 and it was estimated 1% visiting this particular internal forum where even the CEO didn't dare go into and managers were discouraged from participating and becoming potential targets, you can get a pretty good feel for the response you'll get.

 

The rules of the forum were:

1. If you can't stand the heat, get the he** out. You have no business here and your feelings will get hurt.

2. Be prepared to defend your opinion.

 

People were allowed to vent, rant and rage as long as company policy was respected in the treatment of others. i.e. no personal attacks, etc. You had to have a very thick skin to even participate.

 

These forums here can be contentious, but that's going to happen whenever you get a group of people together to express their opinions. Toxic? Not even close.

Edited by TotemLake
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...These forums are considered toxic by most of the geocachers I know...

 

...can say for certain that the topics designed to create controversy, the angst level, rudeness and contentiousness found in this forum are not found outside of them... you won't hear these arguments around a geocaching campfire.

AR (that is, if you really are a real Alabama Rambler, rather than just one more sock puppet account for Sionevil or flask [see footnote 1]), I often agree with your viewpoints, but in this case, I must disagree with some of your points, as copied above.

:D Not only am I a real Alabama Rambler, I am TheAlabamaRambler (or TAR for short)! :(

 

First, if anyone considers these forums toxic, then they have CLEARLY not been on the Internet very long and have CLEARLY not participated in many other forums or email list groups, and thus their perception is highly skewed. In other words, if this is the only forum they have ever seen, then they might indeed think that it is somewhat toxic, because they have nothing with which to compare...

My experience with online forums is admittedly limited. I have read this one since I joined in '03 but for the first few years didn't post much, and I helped get our state association's forum get off the ground, where I am much more active, and I belong to maybe 35 state and localized geocaching forums where I occasionally read but rarely post. I've used Usenet since it's inception in '79 and used many if not most of the communication and interaction tools developed since then. I owned an IT consultancy specializing in business process improvement for 28 years, but in all that time the few forums in which I was active were those related to my profession... small tightly-knit groups where polite professionalism ruled. So, in large open game forums I am indeed a neophyte. So I fall into the group covered in the highlighted text above... geocaching forums comprise almost all of my non-professional forum experiences, and of them this is the most rough-and-tumble I play in.

 

And, as for the tired old argument that local forums are mellower than the Groundspeak forum, well, speaking from direct experience at both levels, I suspect that this perception is, in most cases, due to the fact that local forums are so much smaller and have so much less activity than the Groundspeak forums, in other words, the big pond versus small pond issue and the way in which it can cloud perceptions. I have addressed this issue, along with some real-world comparisons, in detail (along with examples) in past posts and will not bother to repeat myself here.

I agree. But that highlighted text is an excuse for why this forum might be more toxic than others, not a denial that it is so! :(

 

footnote #1: The more time that I spend on the forum, the more I become convinced that both the Alabama Rambler account and the Snoogans account are sock puppet accounts created by and puppeted by flask, or perhaps by Sionevil.

I wear a tin foil hat to keep flask out of my brain, but I too wonder about Snoogans! :laughing:

 

Lastly, I didn't answer the OP intending to rant on how horrible this forum is... obviously I like it here, as I read and post almost every day. Or I am here as a sort of self-flagellation as penance for my sins. :laughing:

 

OK, so that wasn't last, but I was really trying to elucidate what I see as a distinct difference in the experience here and what I find in my off-line interaction, which is striking and indicates to me that this forum does not reflect geocaching reality. Or something.

 

Russia is a long way from me so I don't have much foreign policy experience either, but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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I agree that the topics discussed on a given forum are mainly the same as the topics discussed in local groups, because this is a reflection of what they experience in real life. But it is also true that the way people behave in a forum (the way they write, the way they express their opinions and the way they answer questions) is usually stronger and harsher than what they would do if the person asking the question was standing next to them.

 

How "toxic" you perceive it to be is probably relative to your experience in life, or relative to other forums. This forum seems tame compared to other forums for some users, and other users here can think it's the opposite. They're all right, and nobody can do anything about that.

 

If you ask me, I still think that the way people answer simple and honest questions on this forum is not always nice to say the least, and I would certainly have a few choice words with emphasis on parentage if someone talked to me in real life the way that some people talk to others on this forum.

 

I once saw a very politically incorrect quote I never forgot and since then I alway try to remember it before clicking on the SEND button :

 

Arguing over the internet is like the special Olympics: even if you win, you are still retarded.

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I agree that the topics discussed on a given forum are mainly the same as the topics discussed in local groups, because this is a reflection of what they experience in real life. But it is also true that the way people behave in a forum (the way they write, the way they express their opinions and the way they answer questions) is usually stronger and harsher than what they would do if the person asking the question was standing next to them.

 

How "toxic" you perceive it to be is probably relative to your experience in life, or relative to other forums. This forum seems tame compared to other forums for some users, and other users here can think it's the opposite. They're all right, and nobody can do anything about that.

 

If you ask me, I still think that the way people answer simple and honest questions on this forum is not always nice to say the least, and I would certainly have a few choice words with emphasis on parentage if someone talked to me in real life the way that some people talk to others on this forum.

 

I once saw a very politically incorrect quote I never forgot and since then I alway try to remember it before clicking on the SEND button :

 

Arguing over the internet is like the special Olympics: even if you win, you are still retarded.

Your points are well stated and, I would suggest, also apply to the way people communicate via email. It is much easier to go over the edge when sitting in front of a keyboard rather than face to face. Even if you know the person on the other end very well.

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It is much easier to go over the edge when sitting in front of a keyboard rather than face to face. Even if you know the person on the other end very well.

 

Why you rotten stinking bast... uhm, I think you're right.

 

:D

Aha! I always thought you felt that way.

 

 

That I am right, of course. <_<

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