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Question for Geocoin Vendors


Eric K

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To All Vendors:

 

Just some things I've been thinking about. All of this is VERY rough thinking at the moment. I would like to hear other vendors thoughts on this idea.

 

If needed we could move this a private discussion area.

 

I was wondering if we as vendors could form some kind of committee. We would create some guidelines that we would all agree to follow.

 

If you are a member of the group we could create some kind of "Geocoin Committee Approved" sticker that we would display on our websites.

 

Kind of like forming our own BBB.

 

I know there would be a lot of hurdles. The biggest would be that not all of the vendors get along with other vendors.

 

For right now I would just like to hear other vendors thoughts, pro and con, and any ideas/suggestions you may have.

 

A few things off the top of my head.

 

1. Vendors would of course not be required to share any personal company information.

2. Have a written set of guidelines that is required to be an approved member

 

My concerns.

How would it be determined if a company is no longer a member of the group? Have each vendor allowed a vote?

 

A question for buyers.

 

What it make a difference to you if a company had the 'symbol of approval'?

 

Once again, please don't be to harsh. This is kind of thinking out loud at the moment. :)

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I think something certainly needs to happen, and I think that you've got a good idea. I think in addition to the vendors needing to be part of this, 5-7 coiners need to be part as well, to be the voice of the customer if you will. Whether or not TPTB will allow this info. on their site, I don't know, but there's no shortage of people who can build a site around here! Not selling anything, so not competing....

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I'm going to very blunt about my opinion on this (not mean, lol).

 

I already give 110% of myself through every aspect of the entire geocoin process.

 

Most of the other vendors who have been around for awhile seem to be doing just fine also.

 

If it's not broke, why fix it?

 

Self-regulation that's all there is to this. You give your best, you don't need 'approval' from any other business or customers. It shows up in the way you run your business.

 

Personally, I'm not interested in doing this and for alot more reasons that I just noted.

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I am in agreement with Tsun on this one. There are so many reasons not to do this:

 

1. There are some vendors who are very friendly with each other and some who have gone out of their way to be hostile (as a business strategy . . . I guess), it would be tough to bring together these companies together.

 

At GW we hosted a coin makers lunch and we got maybe 1/3 of the vendors who were at GW to show up. If something as simple as lunch is so poorly received I cannot image this would get much support.

 

2. If someone were in the fold removing them from the fold would be almost impossible and could have some significant legal implications.

 

3. How would you determine who would be included?

 

Overall, the number of problem companies has been remarkably small and ultimately while the total dollar amounts lost have been in the thousands of dollar, generally the individual losses have been small. I just think it is a system that is not that broken.

 

My thoughts . . . .

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Perhaps I am seeing it as something totally different than what was intended. There are a lot of "coin makers" out there now, and sadly more and more seem to be popping up that are not reputable or trustworthy. The people "in the know" know who they are, but what about the rest? Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a resource for people to go to ensure they're buying coins from someone who is actually going to send them their coins?

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The GeoHousekeeping Seal of Approval might help me sell out my first batch of the Friends of Caching Series so I can finish the controbution to the local greenway.

 

The thing about the GoodHousekeeping seal, or the Consumer Reports Best Buy (or seal) is that they are independant of the companies.

 

A GeoCoin Collectors Association Seal of Approval would have more weight and value to buyers than a Vendors Seal.

 

Besides what exactly is a Vendor? Is it CoinSwag who made my coin? Or is it me who's trying to sell it (via CoinSwag in this case).

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Perhaps I am seeing it as something totally different than what was intended. There are a lot of "coin makers" out there now, and sadly more and more seem to be popping up that are not reputable or trustworthy. The people "in the know" know who they are, but what about the rest? Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a resource for people to go to ensure they're buying coins from someone who is actually going to send them their coins?

 

So I think this level of certaintiy is not possible. There is a simple thing GC could do that would help buyers make an informed assessment would be to provide a little more information on the list of vendors:

 

A. Company Name

B. Year Codes were first purchased (how long the company has been around)

B. Total Number of codes purchased

C. Number of codes purchased in the last 6 months (is the company still actively doing business)

 

This would not be perfect but would be an indication of the staying power of the company.

 

My thoughts . . . .

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Perhaps I am seeing it as something totally different than what was intended. There are a lot of "coin makers" out there now, and sadly more and more seem to be popping up that are not reputable or trustworthy. The people "in the know" know who they are, but what about the rest? Wouldn't it be a good idea to have a resource for people to go to ensure they're buying coins from someone who is actually going to send them their coins?

 

Can you explain how having a 'good geocoin vendor' on my website is going to ensure that the customer is going to get their coins?

 

Wasn't another thread discussing the actions of how Groundspeak can delist a compnay, good enough? Why more hoops to have to jump through? Personally, I like my spare time what little I have of it.

 

Point is, the companies in question aren't doing business here anymore (and should be removed from the Groundspeak approved vendor list). An approval stamp is a false sense of security.

 

Again, this is a presale issue with only a couple of companies. Why do the rest of us need to jump through the hoops if we haven't done anything wrong? A stamp is no guarantee of anything.

 

Guidelines, have not the majority of us been doing a fine job based upon comments in threads?

 

There is a simple solution.... don't sell vendors tracking numbers/delist them when the complaints come into Groundspeak.

 

OT: HWS, kinda hard to showup for a lunch when a number of us had to drive thousands of miles and didn't get in until the evening of the Meet-n-Greet event. Doesn't mean it was a slight at your generous offer :)

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Once again, thank you for all of your input.

 

The reason this thread was opened seperate from the other thread is that one was more about what Groundspeak could do and this was more intended as what vendors could do.

 

I think just having these discussions is a good start.

 

A few things.

 

I do not agree with the idea of how many codes were sold to a company, how many coins that company minted, etc should be listed. I think sales numbers are a companies private information and that may hurt legitimate vendors that only mint a few coins a year.

 

Tsun:

 

I agree the simple solution is to have Groundspeak delist those companies. However it appears for now that isn't happening.

 

For now I guess I have more questions than answers.

 

How can we protect new buyers from being burned as if they get burned the first time they may never buy again and think the whole market is a ripoff.

 

I do not know how many buyers actually visit the forums. If all the buyers visited the forums then I think there wouldn't be an issue. How do we protect those customers?

 

Once again, I thank you all for having intelligent input on this discussion.

Edited by Eric K
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Generally speaking, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. However, I will always consider the collective opinions and experiences of buyers before I will fully trust the view a seller wants me to have of them or those in their industry.

 

Like everything else, there are good sellers and bad. Not all good sellers have a perfect 100% satisfaction rating, not all bad ones have a perfect 0% satisfaction rating. Good sellers have transactions go bad, bad sellers have good transactions. Just because a vendor says I should trust them doesn't mean I should, and just because a buyer says I shouldn't choose a specific vendor doesn't mean I shouldn't.

 

It's all pretty subjective until a real pattern emerges - postive or negative. At that point the pattern tends to be made known more from the buyers than the vendors. That's why I prefer hearing from buyers first.

 

Form a committee, get peer approvals, make issues and concerns known... If someone comes up with a design that just WOWS enough people and the sales go bad, will it really matter if they were positively recommended or not? Once you have my money I expect something to be delivered to me in exchange for it. I don't care if you have someone else's seal of approval or not. If you don't honor your side of the deal, I'll handle it the same way whether you have someone's seal of approval or not.

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Larryrob had mentioned a separate website where people can leave their experience with a vendor after the fact. It might provide a good resource for future buyers.

 

This is an idea I really like.

 

As for a seal of some sort I would have to say make it one of recognition. We always see the local paper do a "Who's Who" or 100 companies for the area. We could form some type of thread each year and buyers could suggest their top 5 vendors in order. This is then tallied up and the top 10 vendors get listed. Vendors would not be able to cast ballots as it could influence other vendors to cast their vote one way or the other.

 

Still the website avroair talks about is much better as you could get a better range on vendor. As a vendor the site would be nice to see as you could see a break down by each coin and how you did in certain areas of the process and as a whole. If as a vendor you make coins for someone, they can rate the experiance. They would not be able to access that information until 5 customers that use you for minting their coin have submitted the info; then this info would only be an average and not individual ratings. We don't want someone to be vindictive for a bad rating.

 

Just some thoughts,

 

maldar

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Generally speaking, I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. However, I will always consider the collective opinions and experiences of buyers before I will fully trust the view a seller wants me to have of them or those in their industry.

 

Like everything else, there are good sellers and bad. Not all good sellers have a perfect 100% satisfaction rating, not all bad ones have a perfect 0% satisfaction rating. Good sellers have transactions go bad, bad sellers have good transactions. Just because a vendor says I should trust them doesn't mean I should, and just because a buyer says I shouldn't choose a specific vendor doesn't mean I shouldn't.

 

It's all pretty subjective until a real pattern emerges - postive or negative. At that point the pattern tends to be made known more from the buyers than the vendors. That's why I prefer hearing from buyers first.

 

Form a committee, get peer approvals, make issues and concerns known... If someone comes up with a design that just WOWS enough people and the sales go bad, will it really matter if they were positively recommended or not? Once you have my money I expect something to be delivered to me in exchange for it. I don't care if you have someone else's seal of approval or not. If you don't honor your side of the deal, I'll handle it the same way whether you have someone's seal of approval or not.

 

Well said, ScoutingWV.

 

My opinion on the topic, FWIW:

While it may give me pause, in the end a "Seal of Approval" isn't going to sway me one way or another. When I first began buying coins I learned a few lessons the hard way. Now, if I had read the forums more thoroughly before I started spending money I'm sure I would have avoided some of those lessons :P but not necessarily all of them. And when it comes down to it, how many of us have bought a coin we really liked from someone we were unfamiliar with (the aforementioned WOW coin B) ) and just taken our chances?

 

As for some group to vet vendors... I have a difficult time imagining such a body that would not eventually become cumbersome and ineffective. And with nods to Tsun, why create more hurdles for vendors who do what they promise to do? If the problem were widespread this might be tempting, but it's not.

 

A separate website, a sort of Angie's List for geocoin/geocaching gear vendors, that might work. See: http://www.angieslist.com/AngiesList/Visit...MoreDetail.aspx

Of course, that's assuming someone with more skill than I is willing to set it up and maintain it, including screening the submissions for false reports.

 

Just some thoughts...

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Eric,

 

A couple of years ago we suggested the concept of a self governing association of designers/producers of geocoins to some our peer group to gauge interest, and these same issues came up. Things like who to include and exclude and how to deal with the problem-child situation that was bound to arise. Chris and I came up with a suggested list of criteria for 'membership' and some notions for referrals, feedback, responsibility and accountability. This seemed to generally fall on deaf ears.

 

That being said, some folks are really giving it their all with a lot of professionalism and accountability and there are a small few who could do with a bit more practice :) . I think that this is because geocoin designers/producers run the gamut from Mom & Pop having-fun operations, talented folk who do the coin business on the side of their 'real 9-5 jobs' and folks who are running an incorporated/limited graphic design company 9-5 every day. We all look at this a bit differently, possibly because we're putting different things into it and expecting different things out of it.

 

Feel free to PM us if you want to take this any further. We both have extensive experience with professional associations from our previous lives. Chris was P.Eng and I was CCHRA.

 

Helen

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Eric,

 

A couple of years ago we suggested the concept of a self governing association of designers/producers of geocoins to some our peer group to gauge interest, and these same issues came up. Things like who to include and exclude and how to deal with the problem-child situation that was bound to arise. Chris and I came up with a suggested list of criteria for 'membership' and some notions for referrals, feedback, responsibility and accountability. This seemed to generally fall on deaf ears.

 

That being said, some folks are really giving it their all with a lot of professionalism and accountability and there are a small few who could do with a bit more practice <_< . I think that this is because geocoin designers/producers run the gamut from Mom & Pop having-fun operations, talented folk who do the coin business on the side of their 'real 9-5 jobs' and folks who are running an incorporated/limited graphic design company 9-5 every day. We all look at this a bit differently, possibly because we're putting different things into it and expecting different things out of it.

 

Feel free to PM us if you want to take this any further. We both have extensive experience with professional associations from our previous lives. Chris was P.Eng and I was CCHRA.

 

Helen

 

E-mail sent. I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks

Eric

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