The Royles Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 Have the mods any objections to someone starting a new thread regarding camping events. The thread was developing into a good exchange of views, with lots of well made points for discussion with all members behaving very well WITHIN the thread. I feel the decision to close the thread achieves nothing other than to stifle a debate. If there were abusive/threatening postings on the thread I could understand the stance taken, but to close the thread is to give in to the idiots that sent the emails. The action of closing the thread gives a big stick to the people who sent the mails as now, if they don’t like a thread all they have to do is send an anonymous mail to one of the participants and the thread will be locked (a bit like giving in to kidnappers). I cannot recall a thread being locked (on this or any other forum) for something that happened outside the thread, and think that it could set a very bad precedent. Link to comment
big_bob Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 I too was mystified by the closure of the other thread. I understand and fully support sanctions being taken against people who use the site's facilities to abuse others but I fail to see how closing a perfectly reasonable thread achieves anything. After all, no abuse was posted on the forum and all this action does is to inconvenience all the people who had joined in the debate. Surely the correct approach would be to suspend the posting rights of those people (that person?) who e-mailed the abuse. Link to comment
Deceangi Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 I closed the topic due to the abusive emails that were generated due to the topic and no other reason! I presume you find the persons actions as disgusting as I did. Maybe the persons who sent the abusive emails would like to apologise themselves! Just to make this very clear the recipient received the attacks via a contact facility on his own web site, which was linked to from his/her Signature/Profile, so whilst the emails might have been anonymous the ISP's were logged. I have suggested to the recipient that the emails along with the ISP No's are included in a complaint to Groundspeak. This suggestion was made before the topic was closed. Abuse of fellow members however the abuse is made is not acceptable! So once again I hope the recipient will accept my personal apologise that members of this community felt that they had to abuse this person for voicing a opinion opposite to theirs. That in it's self is a deliberate attempt to stifle debate Anyone care to publicly express similar feelings? Until I received the email from the recipient of the abusive emails, I saw no reason to close the topic, so did not do it to stifle debate. Once again as you feel I have acted wrongly, I'm now advising you to make a complaint using reviewers@geocaching.com. Please give full details of your complaint. Deceangi Volunteer UK Reviewer/Moderator Geocaching.com Mancunian Pyrocacher Member Geocaching.com Link to comment
The Royles Posted September 25, 2008 Author Share Posted September 25, 2008 I closed the topic due to the abusive emails that were generated due to the topic and no other reason! I presume you find the persons actions as disgusting as I did. Maybe the persons who sent the abusive emails would like to apologise themselves! Just to make this very clear the recipient received the attacks via a contact facility on his own web site, which was linked to from his/her Signature/Profile, so whilst the emails might have been anonymous the ISP's were logged. I have suggested to the recipient that the emails along with the ISP No's are included in a complaint to Groundspeak. This suggestion was made before the topic was closed. Abuse of fellow members however the abuse is made is not acceptable! So once again I hope the recipient will accept my personal apologise that members of this community felt that they had to abuse this person for voicing a opinion opposite to theirs. That in it's self is a deliberate attempt to stifle debate Anyone care to publicly express similar feelings? Until I received the email from the recipient of the abusive emails, I saw no reason to close the topic, so did not do it to stifle debate. Once again as you feel I have acted wrongly, I'm now advising you to make a complaint using reviewers@geocaching.com. Please give full details of your complaint. Deceangi Volunteer UK Reviewer/Moderator Geocaching.com Mancunian Pyrocacher Member Geocaching.com I will add my condemnation of the senders of the mails. There is no place for abuse or threats, and I hope the recipient understands that the senders are not representative of the community, and is able to stand up to these bullies by continuing to post his/her views. Unfortunately the closing of the thread precluded this, and achieved what the senders of the mail wanted. The question of a new thread has gone unanswered, so I ask again, can a new thread be started or is the subject now taboo due to the actions of a very small minority who in no way reflect the views or actions of the majority of contributers to the thread ? Link to comment
+purple_pineapple Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 I feel Deci might be feelign a little got at currently, so I'm thought I'd say that I'm sure everyone is as shocked and let down as he is that certain people (I don't really want to call them cachers) feel the need to resort to private abuse. It is cowardly and makes me personally ashamed to be a UK cacher. Having said that, I would very much like to see the debate continue, in public, without resorting to abuse. It was actually a very interesting, well-reasoned and level-headed discussion, which was developing nicely until some mindless actions... (not Deci's, I hasten to add!) So, is there a hope that we can continue discussing here? I hope so, as my personal feeling is that I like to participate in these forums, despite all the issues from over the pond, but one thing that would put me off is being associated with people who resort to sending abusive e-mails. We can't blame TPTB for that... Link to comment
big_bob Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 I closed the topic due to the abusive emails ...<snip>...... Abuse of fellow members however the abuse is made is not acceptable! ....<snip>..... Anyone care to publicly express similar feelings? Yes, me. As I said earlier: ...<snip>..... I understand and fully support sanctions being taken against people who use the site's facilities to abuse others ....<snip>..... But I repeat my (hopefully) civil question, wouldn't a better approach would be to suspend the posting rights of those people (that person?) who e-mailed the abuse rather than closing the whole thread? After all, the thread remains visible along with links to people's profiles so any other plonker can repeat the exercise if they really want to. And no, I won't be writing to Groundspeak over your decision. This is NOT a criticism of your action, rather a mild query as to a possible alternative approach. Link to comment
The Royles Posted September 25, 2008 Author Share Posted September 25, 2008 Just to make it clear, when I said "I feel the decision to close the thread achieves nothing other than to stifle a debate" I was NOT saying that the thread was closed to stifle debate, I was saying that closing the thread had that effect. There was no criticism intended or present in my original post so if any offence was caused I wholeheartedly apologise. Link to comment
+dibbler69 Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 Instead of closing a thread, the person who was sending the emails should have been banned/stopped. Link to comment
mandarin Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 I have just been catching up with what has happened here late yesterday evening and this morning. I am very disappointed by the behaviour of those who sent the abusive emails. I hope that whoever did so will reflect on their actions and will apologise to the recipients. I fully support Deceangi's decision to close the "Stand Alone Camping" topic, after he was informed about what had happened. However this does not mean that the debate has to be stifled completely, as it was an interesting and informative Topic where the posts in the thread had followed the Forum Guidelines. With this in mind, Deceangi and myself are requesting a "cooling off" period for this Topic of "Stand Alone Camping Events": We ask that no one starts a new thread about this matter until Sunday (28th September). Then a new thread may be started by whoever wishes to do so. This thread will remain open so that people can comment on what has happened. Thank you for your anticipated co-operation. mandarin Link to comment
The Royles Posted September 25, 2008 Author Share Posted September 25, 2008 Mandarin, many thanks for the clear answer, heres hoping that the cooling off period will give the senders of the offending mails time to consider their actions and to do the right thing and apologise. Link to comment
+mongoose39uk Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 I think a cooling of period is an excellent compromise. Just hope Web Rat gets an apology from those concerned, then hopefully things can move on. Link to comment
+The Hornet Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 You may have noticed that I rarely visit this forum these days, however I became aware of this "incident" so I've had a look to see what's been going on. Whatever the rights and wrongs and who said what to whom, I trust Deceangi to do what he thinks is best for the UK Geocaching community who use this forum. Keep up the good work Dave, I know better than most what a difficult and thankless task it is being a forum mod! As for the suggestions being made here, I'll leave it to the forum regulars to comment. Link to comment
+purple_pineapple Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 an excellent idea! Just to reiterate, all our UK reviewers and moderators will always have my full support for doing a difficult job, and lets not forget that this action wouldn't have been necessary if cachers had stuck to the guidelines and kept up the well-reasoned debate! I'm off to make notes and prepare my plans for when the debate is restarted on sunday! hehe Link to comment
+Happy Humphrey Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 For those who can't wait, I've opened a thread on the GAGB Forum. I'm not sure exactly why the original was closed, or why a cooling-off period is necessary (as there seems to be remarkably little angst on display), and there appears to be some good points to discuss. Feel free to ignore it until Sunday if you want to, though! Link to comment
+Pengy&Tigger Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 I must say I'm mystified as to why anyone would be sending abusive messages to someone. I thought it was a good natured exchange of opinions (for once!), and can't really see anyone on there who feels so strongly about their opinion that they might send abuse to others with the opposing view. I really can't understand how anyone could get worked up about this. Link to comment
mandarin Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 After some further consultation , rather than let someone open a brand new thread on Sunday, Deceangi and I will un-lock the original Topic on Sunday morning to let the discussion continue. mandarin Link to comment
+Jacobite Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 After some further consultation , rather than let someone open a brand new thread on Sunday, Deceangi and I will un-lock the original Topic on Sunday morning to let the discussion continue. mandarin Good call. The thread was going somewhere, with a lot of good ideas being expressed. Hopefully it won't turn into a "hunt the abusive emailer thread", and stick to the original debate. Link to comment
+Alibags Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 Anyone care to publicly express similar feelings? Absolutely! That sort of thing is disgusting. If you cannot persuade somebody to your point of view by reasoned argument, then threats are hardly going to do it, are they. Loser/s! Link to comment
+deejay44 Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 (edited) I really hope the sender / senders are ashamed of them selves. Alledged grown ups hiding behind anonymous EMail is immature and plain stupid. Also there is always logs generated for every transaction on the net so they can if needed be be found. We do not want to be associated with these people. Dave and Jean Edited September 25, 2008 by deejay44 Link to comment
+PopUpPirate Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 I'd recommend Webrat (as we've since had confirmed) send a complaint to the abusers email provider (or website host as Dave mentioned that the email was sent from a website form). Normally you can get past someones attempts to cover their tracks ----> Use something like Visual IP Trace to find out who is hosting the website where the mail came from, then send an email to the host, abuse@ wherever. Ie, abuse@oneandone.co.uk abuse@hotmail.com etc etc. Also, plenty of great info here too, and here. I've used the above tricks before, when 419 baiting Dunno why the thread was closed rather than the offender banned, but hey ho, roll on Sunday Link to comment
+The Cache Hoppers Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 I'd recommend Webrat (as we've since had confirmed) send a complaint to the abusers email provider (or website host as Dave mentioned that the email was sent from a website form). Normally you can get past someones attempts to cover their tracks ----> Use something like Visual IP Trace to find out who is hosting the website where the mail came from, then send an email to the host, abuse@ wherever. Ie, abuse@oneandone.co.uk abuse@hotmail.com etc etc. Also, plenty of great info here too, and here. I've used the above tricks before, when 419 baiting Dunno why the thread was closed rather than the offender banned, but hey ho, roll on Sunday Some excellent links there ... but you missed one ... oh not again! Link to comment
+PopUpPirate Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 You think that's bad? I nearly posted this! Link to comment
+The Cache Hoppers Posted September 25, 2008 Share Posted September 25, 2008 Good thing we are away at a camping event this weekend - a three day ban won't bother us none Link to comment
+Pharisee Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 I'd recommend Webrat (as we've since had confirmed) send a complaint to the abusers email provider (or website host as Dave mentioned that the email was sent from a website form). If it was Webrat that was abused, then it would appear to have upset him more than somewhat as a whole heap of his caches were archived yesterday Link to comment
+The Cache Hoppers Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 If it was Webrat that was abused, then it would appear to have upset him more than somewhat as a whole heap of his caches were archived yesterday That is a great pity ... a couple of really good series there, one of which I was hoping to return to complete. Link to comment
+L8HNB Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Webrat, from the temp closed thread: However...my eyes have opened to how much respect is shown within the caching community - I would expand on that, but I'm not sure it would sit well with the mods. And on that note, I'll refrain form posting on this thread - now I have a few balls that need collecting.... I guess thats exactly whats happened. Even allowing for a little oversensitivity by Webrat, those pm's must have been pretty heavy..... In UK geocaching that is not acceptable, and hopefully will not be repeated or tolerated. L&H Link to comment
+Pengy&Tigger Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 I though the 'balls need collecting' comment was directed at me to be honest. I did say on the thread that if he didn't want campers finding his caches he could always take his ball home by temping his caches for the duration of the event. For the record, it wasn't me who sent webrat any message. All my opinions have been expressed on the thread concerned. Link to comment
+the_dog Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 I think the Rat was a little miffed at the abusive e-mail, which would have made Chubby Brown blush BTW, but he's also reducing his cache maintenance in general (he had 50 including adoptions). He's a laid back guy and whilst he has all the IT skills necessary to secure the senders IP, he really isn't that bothered. Now get some more flippin' caches out mate! and they'd better not involve c@mping, night time, or boats. Link to comment
The Royles Posted September 26, 2008 Author Share Posted September 26, 2008 Glad to hear that it is not because of the mails. I would hate to see someone driven off by some mindless fools. Link to comment
+purple_pineapple Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 Hopefully it won't turn into a "hunt the abusive emailer thread", and stick to the original debate. Seconded! I am aware of the immediate location the messages originated from, however I think releasing that information could potentially cause yet more stress while providing the offenders with the attention they must so desperately crave. I appreciate (and thank) the many individuals have communicated their disgust regarding recent events (on both here and in my inbox), although at first I did wonder why the camping thread had been locked - but on reading Deci's reasoning I fully understand and support his actions. Furthermore I think dwelling on this subject would also be a source of attention for the individuals concerned and once the camping thread is unlocked I would request that this one is closed (assuming the OP agrees). I think now is the time move on (and continue discussing why non-campers should attend camping events ). well i for one think this post is an education to us all! If webrat can remain as reasoned and reasonable as this, despite the levels of provocation, then surely our debates and discussions can remain equally as calm! well done webrat Link to comment
+Simply Paul Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 (edited) ...however I think releasing that information could potentially cause yet more stress while providing the offenders with the attention they must so desperately crave.If they craved it that much, they'd have signed the email Very sorry this has happened to you Mr Rat (or can I call you The?) but I don't agree it was grounds for thread-suspension. What was sent to you was the nasty reaction by one (or more) forum users, who've shown themselves to be pretty spineless. Closing the thread didn't affect their ability to email you, it only stopped the discussion of what is clearly (a little too clearly!) a very important subject of discussion* Anyway, I hope the culprit/s, in the cold light of day, are feeling pretty sheepish and might even reach for the send button to apologise. If they are still standing by their views, they should apologise for the language used to express them. If they still think that was appropriate too, there's no point debating with people who resort to abuse over reasoned argument. There's only one way to win such a discussion; enjoying the moral high-ground ignoring the provocation affords you It's a shame about the ball collecting (now, there's a mental image of how to deal with email trolls...) but hey, they're your balls. You do what you like with them *Edit to add link: It's still going on at the GAGB forums. P.S. Congratulations on your recent 500th find/attended! And on a less happy note, I hope archiving so many caches under 3 months old, against GS rules for cache listing, doesn't cause you any new listing problems in future. Always assuming you want to put your balls out there again Edited September 26, 2008 by Simply Paul Link to comment
+L8HNB Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 well i for one think this post is an education to us all! If webrat can remain as reasoned and reasonable as this, despite the levels of provocation, then surely our debates and discussions can remain equally as calm! well done webrat Yes indeed, well done Webrat and good to see you back - hopefully refreshed after your walk Link to comment
The Royles Posted September 26, 2008 Author Share Posted September 26, 2008 ...................... Furthermore I think dwelling on this subject would also be a source of attention for the individuals concerned and once the camping thread is unlocked I would request that this one is closed (assuming the OP agrees) ....................................... I totally agree, this thread can be closed anytime the mods see fit, as my original question has been answered. Nice take on things Web Rat, it almost makes me sorry that I am not arguing on your side Link to comment
+Mad H@ter Posted September 26, 2008 Share Posted September 26, 2008 On returning from a couple of very busy days, business and pleasure, I was extremely saddened and shocked that someone would do such a thing and particularly to such a nice guy. To be honest I am at a total loss at why anyone should want to do this on what had been IMO a well natured and level headed discussion with almost no anger being shown by the participants. But what I am really struggling to understand is what has been achieved by locking the thread, and to me it seems to be yet another over reaction to discussions on here. I am now away having an enjoyable caching break on the IoW with some good caching friends so will not be participating in this for the time being, maybe not at all . Link to comment
mandarin Posted September 27, 2008 Share Posted September 27, 2008 Topic closed, as suggested by the OP. As one topic closes, the other opens ... mandarin Link to comment
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