Is it time for coin buyers to voice their concerns?

[+Eric K]

No names of companies are needed to be mentioned in this thread of bad coin vendors or good coin vendors. That has been hashed out over and over in numerous threads.

 

I think it hurts ALL of the reputable coin vendors when several companies take peoples money and they are STILL listed with the good vendors as approved Geocoin resellers.

 

Maybe it's time the coin buyers put it to Groundspeak to delist these sellers that have taken peoples money and have not given them refunds or delivered thier goods.

 

I know none of the vendors are perfect and mistakes, delays, etc. do happen. However I think it has become pretty obvious which places have 'taken the money and ran'.

 

I think if enough people start contacting Groundspeak directly about these companies then maybe they will be deauthorized as coin dealers before they can rip off new customers who don't read the forums but want to buy coins.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Eric K

[Tooeygeotrashed]

I think it is appropriate for 'companies' that have not shown reliability to be de-listed. Being listed by Groundspeak gives an impression, intentional or not, that they are reputable. Reputations and respect have to be earned IMO. I don't think that buying a bunch of tracking numbers is justification enough for being listed.

 

I think that those companies that are listed should also be required to provide full and proper contact information, not a nameless website with only a 'contact us' link.

[YemonYime]

I agree that it's time for Groundspeak to address this issue. It is a fact that they are very limited in what they can do, but they could certainly become more responsible by being more selective on who they sell tracking codes to. This sets up the perfect criteria for a "Geocaching.com Approved" status for reputable vendors.

 

For a company to be currently listed, and therefore "approved" by Groundspeak, and then to have that company fail to provide a paid service to Groundspeak users (who trusted that perceived status) does not reflect favorably upon Groundspeak.

 

Listing a company as an approved vendor on their website should mean more than they've simply purchased tracking codes.

[+Hula Bum]

I agree, by being on the "approved" vendor list, they are promoting a company, and therefore they should both delete their name and stop selling them tracking numbers. Plain and simple.

[+AtlantaGal]

I also agree in delisting companies that have either not delivered products in a timely manner or who have not honored their presales for months upon end.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Agreed. Approval implies the actions of the company named is appropriate.

[+MustangJoni]

An approved vendor list means that GS approves of the actions and policies of that company. If that company is stealing from its customers, then that doesn't look good for GS.

[+AtwellFamily]

Here is the catch in the entire scenerio.

 

Vendor A list a coin for Pre-Sales and collect $10 for 250 coin. Customer is out money vendor out nothing. Groundspeak has not been invovled in the transaction at all except the Vendor is on the list in the pinned thread or on Geocaching.com.

 

Vendor A skips town with customers money. Therefore, Vendor A is removed from list. Customer is out money vendor is out nothing. The issue is when they do it a second time. But from what I see in the forum, it is 3-4 or even 6 months before people bring it up here as an issue. Vendor A could have done this a few times before getting delisted and stopped. We have an example already.

 

I had an idea by which no Pre-Sales could be published here unless codes were purchased. The catch is, 100 codes at $1.50 it not much of a deterrant to list coins at $10 and take the the customers money.

 

The only real way to stop this is for the community to stop participating in pre-sales from questionable vendors. So now we are back to where we are today. How does one determain validity of a vendor. That is the real question, answer that and you have a solution. Short of that buy from those you trust.

 

I have heard another recommendation. Not sure how to control except creating a format for the complaint. But in some way structuring a BBB for Geocoins. Customers can voice a complaint and the vendor could respond. This would need to be pinned to have any value. Not sure the forum is the right plase to have this but some link to a site/database would be good.

 

Lastly, speaking on my own behalf. I get samples before selling or reserving (not collecting money just getting a count) any coins. So now add the samples, artwork, shipping and codes. It starts to become a deterrant.

 

 

Just my 2cents.

Edited September 22, 2008 by Atwell Family

[+Droo]

All I can say is Hear hear!! I hope TPTB are listening.

[+Rockin Roddy]

New buyers coming in see the names and assume all is well...until they are ripped off! The names certainly do suggest these people are reputable, I'm all for removal of the dishonest ones!

[Maine Family]

When I started buying coins I went to the pinned thread and saw the list. Seeing the list there I thought these companies was all excellent and reputable companies. Even though it says Groundspeak assumes no responsibilities because the company was listed on their site it gave me reassurance that the companies was top of the line. The pinned thread isn't one that the companies themselves go in and post, it is someone from Groundspeak because of the typing which is another reason I felt reassured. I think Groundspeak is great and yes I am naive and just couldn't believe they would have direputable stores listed. Since reading the posts lately I have been leary of buying coins, even one I had bought from before I learned had been sold which I didn't know. I think a lot of people trust Groundspeak and when they begin buying coins they will go to the pinned thread. Underneath the list of coin stores is places you can go to, why can't you go to a site that list the stores and people write their opinions on the store. The way it is now, it is hurting the reputable stores and presales. Just my thoughts.

[+silox]

Although I'm new, I would certainly like to chime in here. In my opinion, Groundspeak should review this issue and explore possible solutions. Maybe a fair, but worthy list of requirements to become a 'Groundspeak Approved' vendor? I'm not sure what the right answer is, however I think it would be in their best interest to at least acknowledge the issue, even though they aren't involved in the transactions, as geocoins help promote the growth of geocaching which is a plus for all parties involved. I know I've been eyeing the idea of getting a coin made, but I'll surely be doing my homework before doing so.

 

Does Groundspeak or a Groundspeak affiliate manufacture custom coins for geocachers?

[+Eartha]

Although I'm new, I would certainly like to chime in here. In my opinion, Groundspeak should review this issue and explore possible solutions. Maybe a fair, but worthy list of requirements to become a 'Groundspeak Approved' vendor? I'm not sure what the right answer is, however I think it would be in their best interest to at least acknowledge the issue, even though they aren't involved in the transactions, as geocoins help promote the growth of geocaching which is a plus for all parties involved. I know I've been eyeing the idea of getting a coin made, but I'll surely be doing my homework before doing so.

 

Does Groundspeak or a Groundspeak affiliate manufacture custom coins for geocachers?

 

I am always listening. I bring feedback to the attention of Groundspeak whenever possible. Some of the staff were out of town this week, so I am not able to bring this to their attention immediately, but I am working on it.

 

No, Groundspeak does not manufacture coins. Nor does an affiliate of Groundspeak make coins. Groundspeak is not in the coin making business, they are in the geocaching/Waymarking/Wherigo/ use your GPS for fun kind of business.

[+silox]

Although I'm new, I would certainly like to chime in here. In my opinion, Groundspeak should review this issue and explore possible solutions. Maybe a fair, but worthy list of requirements to become a 'Groundspeak Approved' vendor? I'm not sure what the right answer is, however I think it would be in their best interest to at least acknowledge the issue, even though they aren't involved in the transactions, as geocoins help promote the growth of geocaching which is a plus for all parties involved. I know I've been eyeing the idea of getting a coin made, but I'll surely be doing my homework before doing so.

 

Does Groundspeak or a Groundspeak affiliate manufacture custom coins for geocachers?

 

I am always listening. I bring feedback to the attention of Groundspeak whenever possible. Some of the staff were out of town this week, so I am not able to bring this to their attention immediately, but I am working on it.

 

No, Groundspeak does not manufacture coins. Nor does an affiliate of Groundspeak make coins. Groundspeak is not in the coin making business, they are in the geocaching/Waymarking/Wherigo/ use your GPS for fun kind of business.

 

Good to know, thanks! I'm certainly not critizing GS, especially since I don't know enough to even begin to, however I just wanted to offer an opinion from a newbie like myself. I wouldn't expect immediate action or a resolution from GS as I'm sure there are plenty of implications and procedures to this than what is shown on the surface, however it's good to know the community is being heard.

 

GS offering(manufacture was the wrong term) coins or teaming up with someone to to provide a 'Groundspeak' geocoin brand isn't too far-fetched of an idea/question since they do sell just about everything else(shop.Groundspeak.com, correct me if I'm wrong though). I know I would feel a bit more comfortable buying direct, but GS offering geocoins directly is another topic for another day plus a whole lot of work on their end.

 

Anywho, thanks again!

[+Toojin]

I agree that it's time for Groundspeak to address this issue. It is a fact that they are very limited in what they can do, but they could certainly become more responsible by being more selective on who they sell tracking codes to. This sets up the perfect criteria for a "Geocaching.com Approved" status for reputable vendors.

 

For a company to be currently listed, and therefore "approved" by Groundspeak, and then to have that company fail to provide a paid service to Groundspeak users (who trusted that perceived status) does not reflect favorably upon Groundspeak.

 

Listing a company as an approved vendor on their website should mean more than they've simply purchased tracking codes.

 

VERY MUCH IN AGREEMENT !!

[+River Cacher]

Has anyone turned these claims into the police at all to see if they will step and prevent these people from ripping off more. I have been lucky so far but it has now thrown up red flags to me on purchasing items from others out there.

[+tiki]

woah! Things are getting mighty heated in this forum since I last checked in. I've been reading this thread (and the multiple similar threads) and feel that stopping coin pre-sales would be a step in the right direction. There are simply too many complicated steps between coming up with a coin idea and actually having it made that it is unfair to ask the buyer to share in the risk from the get-go. If you feel that you've got a great design, save up some $ and invest in having it made. Once the finished coins are in hand make them availabe to the public. Whew! Ok. I vented.

[+River Cacher]

woah! Things are getting mighty heated in this forum since I last checked in. I've been reading this thread (and the multiple similar threads) and feel that stopping coin pre-sales would be a step in the right direction. There are simply too many complicated steps between coming up with a coin idea and actually having it made that it is unfair to ask the buyer to share in the risk from the get-go. If you feel that you've got a great design, save up some $ and invest in having it made. Once the finished coins are in hand make them availabe to the public. Whew! Ok. I vented.

It does scare me to buy a presale and i never have and it is not looking good on ever doing so but one thing i see is that some coins go so fast and when they do not make enough it does cause issues and that is were the presales come in good to get a good idea on the amounts but there are people out there that ruin it for others and these threads are a very good thing for all geocachers to read but then again it would hurt other companies that have done nothing wrong at all.

[YemonYime]

woah! Things are getting mighty heated in this forum since I last checked in. I've been reading this thread (and the multiple similar threads) and feel that stopping coin pre-sales would be a step in the right direction. There are simply too many complicated steps between coming up with a coin idea and actually having it made that it is unfair to ask the buyer to share in the risk from the get-go. If you feel that you've got a great design, save up some $ and invest in having it made. Once the finished coins are in hand make them availabe to the public. Whew! Ok. I vented.

It does scare me to buy a presale and i never have and it is not looking good on ever doing so but one thing i see is that some coins go so fast and when they do not make enough it does cause issues and that is were the presales come in good to get a good idea on the amounts but there are people out there that ruin it for others and these threads are a very good thing for all geocachers to read but then again it would hurt other companies that have done nothing wrong at all.

 

This is sad. All this presale backlash because of a few inexperienced individuals who bit off more than they can chew. Meanwhile, there's established, experienced companies that are doing nothing wrong, yet are having their practices questioned for no reason other than they also sell geocoins.

 

Look, you just can't please everyone in this hobby. If you're a reputable business, you make the coins available for presale and satisfy the exact demand. Customers are happy that they're guaranteed to get the coin they want, and no frenzy is created. The only drawback is having to wait until the coins are finished.

 

OR, a limited number of coins go on sale at 13 o'clock, they sell out quickly, then you immediately see the same coins pop up on eBay within days going for much more than the previous retail price. Hey...I'm all for eBay determining the value of coins, but that sure seems to be consistently beneficial to the aftermarketeers who take advantage of the demand every time.

 

So, is that really any better? Where's the happy medium?

[+steel city babes]

I tend to like presales...it allows me to get the coins I want at a good price. Most of my presales have been with coinsandpins.com.....no issues ever....I moved(addy changed twice) and the package arrived after some research...

 

I think it is a buyer beware market be mindful of the mom and pop's so to speak until they become a reputable company with great feedback. Ask questions in this forum, if there is an issue then someone I am sure could point you to one of the many threads out there on such companies.

 

I had an issue early on when I first started buying coins from one of these questionable companies, I pestered them with emails until the coins arrived and haven't dealt with them since. I am sure glad I didn't lose my hard earned $$ on them.

[+ECplus3]

I've taken part in a few pre-sales and have had no issues. I understand, however, that I've been lucky.

 

My question is about how you would handle a group coin or some other customizable coin. In a reservation system for a normal coin, if a few people back out at the last minute its not that big a deal. You pop a few on ebay, offer them for trade, whatever. But if they have been customized for a particular client and they then back out, you are completely out of luck! Who's going to want a custom coloured coin with somebody else's name engraved on it??

 

Pre-sales do still have their place.

[+DaFunkyFrogs]

as fairly new to buying coins, we have done a few pre-sales, only after an intense research of the sellers...we were delighted in most cases, coins arrived when they should have & were as great as advertised... we did have an extremely long wait for 1 coin, and it's a shame that a few are acting like they are.........everyone has problems, but they work through them ...If anyone pays up-front, they are entitled to updates & deliveries in a timely fashion.....so, to those who deliver on time, KUDOS...to those who don't, ya need to get your stuff together & take proper care of your valued customers........

[+Renegade Knight]

I'd just like to see a real forum that lets you talk about what's what in the geocoin world.

 

The last thing I want to see is fragmentation where some vendors are "approved" giving as much value as being the "official Olympic supplier" of Bunion Pads.

 

Groundspeak at best can control exactly one small sliver of the larger issue. If I want my own personal coin to be trackable why would I need to use an approved (and now pricy) vendor to get codes that I can get on my own since I can work with the factory directly?

[+Renegade Knight]

woah! Things are getting mighty heated in this forum since I last checked in. I've been reading this thread (and the multiple similar threads) and feel that stopping coin pre-sales would be a step in the right direction. There are simply too many complicated steps between coming up with a coin idea and actually having it made that it is unfair to ask the buyer to share in the risk from the get-go. If you feel that you've got a great design, save up some $ and invest in having it made. Once the finished coins are in hand make them availabe to the public. Whew! Ok. I vented.

 

Is this the wrong time to mention the RK presale? Someone will pay in advance for the first 100 coin run, a Tracking Code (may have to get 100, you can have the other 99) and I'll see to it that the 101st coin is a White Knight Edition one only (Silver) coin. (tracked if you so choose but the edge art would have to give way to the number and a one use only edge die created at extra cost) This may set you back a couple of grand. Of course no need to pay until the order is set up otherwise the delay would be a major PITA. I am slow. Heck I've been working to get a price quote on this and it's hitting it's 6 week anniversary.

[+Eric K]

woah! Things are getting mighty heated in this forum since I last checked in. I've been reading this thread (and the multiple similar threads) and feel that stopping coin pre-sales would be a step in the right direction. There are simply too many complicated steps between coming up with a coin idea and actually having it made that it is unfair to ask the buyer to share in the risk from the get-go. If you feel that you've got a great design, save up some $ and invest in having it made. Once the finished coins are in hand make them availabe to the public. Whew! Ok. I vented.

 

Is this the wrong time to mention the RK presale? Someone will pay in advance for the first 100 coin run, a Tracking Code (may have to get 100, you can have the other 99) and I'll see to it that the 101st coin is a White Knight Edition one only (Silver) coin. (tracked if you so choose but the edge art would have to give way to the number and a one use only edge die created at extra cost) This may set you back a couple of grand. Of course no need to pay until the order is set up otherwise the delay would be a major PITA. I am slow. Heck I've been working to get a price quote on this and it's hitting it's 6 week anniversary.

 

Please do not turn this into a thread on specific coins or vendors.

 

Thank you

Eric

[+Wandering Vikings]

Rather than an approved list, it seems like there should be an easy way to have a feedback area (similar to Ebay) where customers could rate their purchase experience. This could be a comment section or even just a rating/number section where you could rate the quality of service on several different criteria;

Price

Coin quality

Communication

Order fulfillment time

Shipping time and

Packaging

to name a few. As a purchaser I would get the most reassurance from responses given by actual customers, as a vendor that would also be the best 'report card' I could think of.

 

Just my .02!

[Maine Family]

If Groundspeak doesn't want to do the rating system why doesn't the stores do it. Then customers coming to the store could read the comments and ratings before ordering.

[+Wandering Vikings]

If Groundspeak doesn't want to do the rating system why doesn't the stores do it. Then customers coming to the store could read the comments and ratings before ordering.

 

The only potential downside that I could see would be that if the store controls it, how do we know it is accurate? For it to be truly beneficial an impartial person would have to be running it, so we would know that the store wasn't inflating their numbers...

[+silox]

If Groundspeak doesn't want to do the rating system why doesn't the stores do it. Then customers coming to the store could read the comments and ratings before ordering.

 

Because the store could easily delete any negative comments and/or only post positive ones.

[+larry739]

Why don't one of you internet savvy folks put up an independent ratings site somewhere and let everyone post names dates and complaints there for all to see without any shutdown?

[+River Cacher]

Why don't one of you internet savvy folks put up an independent ratings site somewhere and let everyone post names dates and complaints there for all to see without any shutdown?

I think something like this would be great as the coin operaters would be able to defend themselves due to mistakes or whatever the issues are and we could decide if we still want to use them or not.

I had a friend call me today and say she was going online to purchase some coins and I told her to check here first to see what is going on.

I would love to see Groundspeak be incharge of this if they are able to????

If I ever order presale I will do major research to make sure i do not get ripped off and that is sad to have to do over a 10.00 coin.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

I think that's going to be VERY misleading. Here's why... Company A is very tiny and moves say 100 coins in a month. Company B is massive and move 1000 coins in a month. They each get 5 complaints posted so they end up with a similar rating even though by the numbers company B is 10 times more accurate than company A.

 

edit to add: Because more people will complain than compliment you'll never have an accurate description of the companies.

Edited September 24, 2008 by fox-and-the-hound

[+Eric K]

I would suggest that buyers that have been ripped off contact Groundspeak directly if a company is on their list of approved vendors.

 

If enough people say "Company ABC has taken my money and not delivered good or answered my e-mails" then maybe Groundspeak would start to look into those companies.

 

I think if Groundspeak sends e-mails to companies and they ignore Groundspeak that would be different than ignoring customers.

 

I would suggest if you go that route that you provide all information and show that you have tried to contact the companies so they know you have a legitimate gripe and aren't just unhappy.

 

I would like to see companies delisted that show a pattern of taking peoples money and doing nothing to return the money, deliver the products, or communicate with their customers.

[+Wandering Vikings]

I would like to see companies delisted that show a pattern of taking peoples money and doing nothing to return the money, deliver the products, or communicate with their customers.

 

Hear, hear!

 

I don't see how these companies can get away with it repeatedly. Their account should have been suspended with PayPal at the very least! It seems right now that there is very little in the way of consequences for fraud.

 

The sooner we can figure something out the better it will be for all involved- consumer and seller alike! Right now it appears that all sellers are being penalized for the few bad apples, and unless/until we cab get some kind of verification process set up the issue will continue to fester on these boards.

 

Perhaps a moderator or someone from Groundspeak can chime in for a moment on this...

If a group got together and figured out criteria for a "GS verified" seller, would Groundspeak post it? It could still have the disclaimer saying that GS is not liable for any transactions, but it would be a means of ranking businesses customer service.

 

It could be as simple as a page that lists each "approved" vendor, with a link to contact info for that vendor. The vendors could be ranked by successful coins sold, with notes for explanations of any issues.

 

For example-

Vendor A, in business since 2001, contact at ABC@email. Gold status (50+ coins minted) one delay of less then a month on coin XYZ.

Vendor B, in business since 2008, contact ABC@email2. New Vendor (less than 5 coins minted) no delays reported.

Vendor C, in business since 2006, contact ABC@email3. Bronze vendor (5-15 coins minted) 4 delays reported, 2+ months each.

 

Is this something Groundspeak would approve??

[+Eartha]

I would suggest that buyers that have been ripped off contact Groundspeak directly if a company is on their list of approved vendors.

 

If enough people say "Company ABC has taken my money and not delivered good or answered my e-mails" then maybe Groundspeak would start to look into those companies.

 

I think if Groundspeak sends e-mails to companies and they ignore Groundspeak that would be different than ignoring customers.

 

I would suggest if you go that route that you provide all information and show that you have tried to contact the companies so they know you have a legitimate gripe and aren't just unhappy.

 

I would like to see companies delisted that show a pattern of taking peoples money and doing nothing to return the money, deliver the products, or communicate with their customers.

 

This is a good suggestion, because if no one lets Groundspeak know what is happening, how is Groundspeak supposed to know?

We are in discussion now about a feedback thread, for both traders and companies. Please stay tuned. It will probably be a pinned thread. We do listen. Since a lot of you trade, are you prepared to be rated in public? Those of you who produce coins, are you ready for the feedback? Are you all willing to do something about any negative feedback? And we don't want a feedback thread to turn into a flamefest.

 

Groundspeak doesn't get involved in any transactions between buyers and sellers, so I don't know about the email part of your suggestion, I'll bring it up, but they can do something about the approved list. Perhaps Groundspeak could stop selling tracking numbers to people who are defaulting on producing what they promised, and remove them from the list. We just need to know who the culprits are.

What we don't want is false reports, "shill" reports, that type of thing. It has to be backed up with facts. Not just complaints that the coins are a week late, or that type of thing. One report is not going to de-list a company. There has to be some kind of pattern of repeat offenses.

[+Wandering Vikings]

 

Since a lot of you trade, are you prepared to be rated in public? Those of you who produce coins, are you ready for the feedback? Are you all willing to do something about any negative feedback?

 

Yes please!!

As I seller I would be more than willing to provide GS with just about any information they need (excluding confidential customer info, of course), in order remove any questions about my business, and seperate us from those unscrupulous companies who are giving everyone a bad name.

 

Two questions-

1. Would there be an easy way to search for a specific company? A pinned thread offers the slight disadvantage of having to wade through all responses to find out about a seller/trader you want to order from.

2. Would there be a way to link buyers concerns with a sellers response? If someone complains on post 12 and the seller responds on post 20, will people have to read the entire thing to see the resolution? If they are not linked, there could be issues with a seller getting a bad image on something that was taken care of, it just took a weekend to get a post up.

 

Regardless, I think it is a good step in the right direction!

[+Eartha]

 

Since a lot of you trade, are you prepared to be rated in public? Those of you who produce coins, are you ready for the feedback? Are you all willing to do something about any negative feedback?

 

Yes please!!

As I seller I would be more than willing to provide GS with just about any information they need (excluding confidential customer info, of course), in order remove any questions about my business, and seperate us from those unscrupulous companies who are giving everyone a bad name.

 

Two questions-

1. Would there be an easy way to search for a specific company? A pinned thread offers the slight disadvantage of having to wade through all responses to find out about a seller/trader you want to order from.

2. Would there be a way to link buyers concerns with a sellers response? If someone complains on post 12 and the seller responds on post 20, will people have to read the entire thing to see the resolution? If they are not linked, there could be issues with a seller getting a bad image on something that was taken care of, it just took a weekend to get a post up.

 

Regardless, I think it is a good step in the right direction!

 

This is why it's still in discussion. All good questions, and I know I can't think of everything that needs to be asked by myself! If anyone else has suggestions or questions, or concerns to add, please do. Let's work together on this, shall we?

[+webscouter.]

The local Mustang forum in Kansas City has a section of their forums where each vender has it's own forum subsection. If you had that for coin providers they could post their new coins for sale and also feedback and response could be posted under the vendors name.

[+tsunrisebey]

 

Since a lot of you trade, are you prepared to be rated in public? Those of you who produce coins, are you ready for the feedback? Are you all willing to do something about any negative feedback?

 

Yes please!!

As I seller I would be more than willing to provide GS with just about any information they need (excluding confidential customer info, of course), in order remove any questions about my business, and seperate us from those unscrupulous companies who are giving everyone a bad name.

 

Two questions-

1. Would there be an easy way to search for a specific company? A pinned thread offers the slight disadvantage of having to wade through all responses to find out about a seller/trader you want to order from.

2. Would there be a way to link buyers concerns with a sellers response? If someone complains on post 12 and the seller responds on post 20, will people have to read the entire thing to see the resolution? If they are not linked, there could be issues with a seller getting a bad image on something that was taken care of, it just took a weekend to get a post up.

 

Regardless, I think it is a good step in the right direction!

 

This is why it's still in discussion. All good questions, and I know I can't think of everything that needs to be asked by myself! If anyone else has suggestions or questions, or concerns to add, please do. Let's work together on this, shall we?

 

I've not said anything in this thread up until this point. I do have some concerns as a seller.

 

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this. I agree with some things here and others I don't agree with at all. I'm sure I can't be the only seller watching these threads over the past week and feeling a bit bothered by everything going on lately. I personally am tired of having to pay for the actions of a few unscrupulous sellers.

 

I do agree that Groundspeak needs to take some responsibility in that when a seller has defaulted on coin, some action needs to be taken (removed from the vendor list). There are enough people here when the new geocoin buyers/collectors come in asking questions, we can all point them to the appropriate pinned thread on where to find honorable vendors.

 

I personally don't care for the 'rating' system some have proposed (I'm sure I'm in the minority here). This is not ebay. I'd like to hear how if a rating system by buyers would protect the seller against unwarranted feedback. Let's be honest, some people are very vindictive, I see snide comments in threads all the time so what's to stop them from just being plain ole' mean? Where I live shipping is slow to a number of other states versus someone who lives in a very urban, Post Office hub type of area. How can I or others in my situation compete with those who live in the hub of urban life?

 

In my opinion that is what the 'Coin For Sale' thread is for. You wanna voice your complaint as a customer, do it in the appropriate thread. People have been doing it up to this point. Ratings are subjective anyhow. There are alot of scenarios here that can affect the seller. I'm really against the rating system and that's coming from someone who goes way out of their way to make customers happy. It;s also my thought that the only thing that Groundspeak should be concerned with is; did the customer get his/her coin(s)? Anything else can be addressed in the Coin sales thread.

 

If you are going to give customers a rating system than how about a system that works both ways? I can't count the number of times I've had to chase down people to pay for a reservation or cancel one because they decided they no longer wanted the coin or because of the financial situation they say they are having (yet I've seen those same people 'got one' in the next sales thread 3 days later). You never hear the vendors complaining about everything they have to put up with. Someone can argue that 'that's the price of business' well my answer to that is 'it works both ways when you don't get what you paid for-that's the price of being a customer'.

 

So again, I completely agree with Groundspeak removing vendors from the pinned thread for GS violations. Tracking numbers not being sold to vendors until they clear up what they owe is fine also. I think there are tactics Groundspeak can use without overregulating the situation. A simple "in good standing" behind the name or immediaitely pulled from the list should solve alot of the problems.

 

This really is only a presale issue.

 

I guess that's all I have to say for now. Thanks for taking opinions/comments/concerns.

 

tsun

[+Rockin Roddy]

 

Since a lot of you trade, are you prepared to be rated in public? Those of you who produce coins, are you ready for the feedback? Are you all willing to do something about any negative feedback?

 

Yes please!!

As I seller I would be more than willing to provide GS with just about any information they need (excluding confidential customer info, of course), in order remove any questions about my business, and seperate us from those unscrupulous companies who are giving everyone a bad name.

 

Two questions-

1. Would there be an easy way to search for a specific company? A pinned thread offers the slight disadvantage of having to wade through all responses to find out about a seller/trader you want to order from.

2. Would there be a way to link buyers concerns with a sellers response? If someone complains on post 12 and the seller responds on post 20, will people have to read the entire thing to see the resolution? If they are not linked, there could be issues with a seller getting a bad image on something that was taken care of, it just took a weekend to get a post up.

 

Regardless, I think it is a good step in the right direction!

 

This is why it's still in discussion. All good questions, and I know I can't think of everything that needs to be asked by myself! If anyone else has suggestions or questions, or concerns to add, please do. Let's work together on this, shall we?

 

I've not said anything in this thread up until this point. I do have some concerns as a seller.

 

I'm trying to keep an open mind about this. I agree with some things here and others I don't agree with at all. I'm sure I can't be the only seller watching these threads over the past week and feeling a bit bothered by everything going on lately. I personally am tired of having to pay for the actions of a few unscrupulous sellers.

 

I do agree that Groundspeak needs to take some responsibility in that when a seller has defaulted on coin, some action needs to be taken (removed from the vendor list). There are enough people here when the new geocoin buyers/collectors come in asking questions, we can all point them to the appropriate pinned thread on where to find honorable vendors.

 

I personally don't care for the 'rating' system some have proposed (I'm sure I'm in the minority here). This is not ebay. I'd like to hear how if a rating system by buyers would protect the seller against unwarranted feedback. Let's be honest, some people are very vindictive, I see snide comments in threads all the time so what's to stop them from just being plain ole' mean? Where I live shipping is slow to a number of other states versus someone who lives in a very urban, Post Office hub type of area. How can I or others in my situation compete with those who live in the hub of urban life?

 

In my opinion that is what the 'Coin For Sale' thread is for. You wanna voice your complaint as a customer, do it in the appropriate thread. People have been doing it up to this point. Ratings are subjective anyhow. There are alot of scenarios here that can affect the seller. I'm really against the rating system and that's coming from someone who goes way out of their way to make customers happy. It;s also my thought that the only thing that Groundspeak should be concerned with is; did the customer get his/her coin(s)? Anything else can be addressed in the Coin sales thread.

 

If you are going to give customers a rating system than how about a system that works both ways? I can't count the number of times I've had to chase down people to pay for a reservation or cancel one because they decided they no longer wanted the coin or because of the financial situation they say they are having (yet I've seen those same people 'got one' in the next sales thread 3 days later). You never hear the vendors complaining about everything they have to put up with. Someone can argue that 'that's the price of business' well my answer to that is 'it works both ways when you don't get what you paid for-that's the price of being a customer'.

 

So again, I completely agree with Groundspeak removing vendors from the pinned thread for GS violations. Tracking numbers not being sold to vendors until they clear up what they owe is fine also. I think there are tactics Groundspeak can use without overregulating the situation. A simple "in good standing" behind the name or immediaitely pulled from the list should solve alot of the problems.

 

This really is only a presale issue.

 

I guess that's all I have to say for now. Thanks for taking opinions/comments/concerns.

 

tsun

 

I agree with this, I don't think the rating system would be such a good idea. I thought the thread started asking about delisting.

[+Dolfy]

 

I personally don't care for the 'rating' system some have proposed (I'm sure I'm in the minority here). This is not ebay. I'd like to hear how if a rating system by buyers would protect the seller against unwarranted feedback. Let's be honest, some people are very vindictive, I see snide comments in threads all the time so what's to stop them from just being plain ole' mean? Where I live shipping is slow to a number of other states versus someone who lives in a very urban, Post Office hub type of area. How can I or others in my situation compete with those who live in the hub of urban life?

 

 

How about a rating system that uses stars where people can't leave actual comments but can rate you by clicking on stars. Like say a 1-10 and have it on a couple of different things like communication, timliness, etc. Your star rating would show the average that you have been rated on. So if you've had a couple of bad transactions but tons of good ones then it really won't hurt you. I do agree though that something should be done.

[+tsunrisebey]

 

I personally don't care for the 'rating' system some have proposed (I'm sure I'm in the minority here). This is not ebay. I'd like to hear how if a rating system by buyers would protect the seller against unwarranted feedback. Let's be honest, some people are very vindictive, I see snide comments in threads all the time so what's to stop them from just being plain ole' mean? Where I live shipping is slow to a number of other states versus someone who lives in a very urban, Post Office hub type of area. How can I or others in my situation compete with those who live in the hub of urban life?

 

 

How about a rating system that uses stars where people can't leave actual comments but can rate you by clicking on stars. Like say a 1-10 and have it on a couple of different things like communication, timliness, etc. Your star rating would show the average that you have been rated on. So if you've had a couple of bad transactions but tons of good ones then it really won't hurt you. I do agree though that something should be done.

 

Like I mentioned before, I don't like any rating system, this isn't ebay. Why should Groundspeak be concerned about my timeliness and communication? Isn't that what the sale thread is for? The only thing that should be monitored via Groundspeak is whether or not a vendor is getting you your coins that you ordered via a presale.

 

For arguments sake, lets say a rating system is put in place and a vendor has 5 stars (highest possible) for communication but has 3 stars for shipping/timeliness. Are you still going to buy from that vendor? What if they have 1 star for timeliness/shipping? People are still getting their coins but they are obviously slow. So are you still going to buy knowing that the timeliness of the vendor is poor? Obviously the answer here is 'yes' for most people because they kept on ordering presale coins from repeat offenders. So I'm curious as to how the rating system really helps?

 

Put yourself in a vendors place for a moment, if everyone is allowed cart blanche to rate vendors where doe sone draw the line on who can leave a rating? Seems to me that's quite a system to put in place all for the sake of seeing stars next to a vendor that most people will end up ignoring anyhow. What is the vendor's recourse for some rating they don't agree with?

 

Isn't the most important issue here the fact that you get what you pay for? Why does everything have to be made so complicated? If I want to be rated on my vendoring/selling skills, well than I might as well bring my goods to ebay and sell them there, heck I might even make more money selling them off 1 at a time. I'm going to assume that 99% of the people here buying on ebay only buy from people with 100% feedback, right

 

You can leave feedback in a coin sale thread. The problem with saying 'we want this' is that the majority are speaking from a 'i've only bought and never sold' perspective. If people are really honest with themselves, how often are you going to look at feedback? If I offer a coin up for sale, are you gonna go look at my star rating before you buy from me? Or are you gonna buy from me based on your previous experiences? If 5 people have had their coins shipped slowly, are you going to not buy the next coin (assuming you were to like the coin)? If a vendor is offering coins for sale that are in stock and ready to go, what does the feedback rating really do for eveyone? The problem was never with 'in stock' coins. It's with presales which is always the problem here in this forum which has now caused a PITA situation for the rest of us.

 

I'm grumpy and tired of paying the price for others. I'm going to throw a huge tantrum if there is a rating system in place and trust me it's not pretty when I pound my fists on the floor and get the ugly cry going

[+GPX Navigators]

I agree with tsun. I think the rating system is a bad idea. I'll just add a very bad idea. She stated it well so need to repeat it but all her points were on target.

 

As far as rating traders how does that work? If I contact someone through another site for a trade, does that mean they still have the right to come in here and rate me, whether it be good or bad? To allow Groundspeak such "control" over trades that are personal and between individuals gives far too much leeway. This is an area they should not even get involved in.

 

Frankly, we have crummy postal service here. I've sent coins that never made it and had packages returned to others claiming my address does not exist. All it takes is one person to feel disgruntled or slighted and it can ruin it for others. Never mind the sniping that goes on in here already in some threads. Could you imagine what will happen when you give someone the right to bash another? And they will have that right if they are allowed to freely rate someone, no matter what occurred in the trade or sale. This would be way too difficult to control & monitor.

 

Please, let's not go there.

Edited September 25, 2008 by GPX Navigators

[+nielsenc]

The problem is no one can predict when a company will fail. Look at our current stock market. One day all is fine and the next day companies go bankrupt.

 

What I would like to see is something like a delisting notice posted. No comments, just Groundspeak making a statement that xyz company/person is no longer authorized to purchase Trackable Codes from Groundspeak. Some of the companies people are having issues with are still listed on their site.

[+GPX Navigators]

The problem is no one can predict when a company will fail. Look at our current stock market. One day all is fine and the next day companies go bankrupt.

 

What I would like to see is something like a delisting notice posted. No comments, just Groundspeak making a statement that xyz company/person is no longer authorized to purchase Trackable Codes from Groundspeak. Some of the companies people are having issues with are still listed on their site.

 

Exactly. Well said. In that case a rating system would be useless.

 

To make it less harsh "XYZ is no longer an approved vendor of Groundspeak" could suffice. And that should be a separate pinned thread.

 

The only thing to be settled is how long a time period between non-delivery and/or response does the company/person get de-listed.

[+Eartha]

This is why I'd like the community to talk this through before any action is taken. Has anyone even let Groundspeak know they are having issues with any companies? Groundspeak can't delist, if they don't know who it is who is defaulting.

If anyone listened to the President talk last night, it sounded a lot like the geocoin economy he was talking about. Free enterprise, and the ones who can't perform, go out of business. If someone is living practically paycheck to paycheck and something, like an illness, brings business to a halt then perhaps they shouldn't be in this business. But in this case, there is no bailout.

[+MustangJoni]

I agree that the companies that are taking money and not delivering product should not be on the approved vendor list. That is giving the GS stamp of approval to a company.

 

A ratings system is something I don't think would be useful. There is a point that we need to take a little responsibility. We need to buy smarter!

 

The only problems have been companies that have done pre-sales. Both of them have hit my "Beware" list. I posted this in another thread, but here is what I look for when buying a pre-sale:

 

1. A reputation for delivering coins in a timely manner.

2. Have the invested in a sample? Or are you only buying based on art? If so, this company has nothing invested in that coin.

3. Does the company give you a date to expect the coins? If not, you could be waiting a while.

4. Does the customer service you receive from this company seem more combative than helpful? Everything is someone else's fault, and nothing is their fault.

5. Does the company come out with pre-sale after pre-sale, not delivering the last one before starting the next one?

6. Does the company come in and update the thread? Especially if there is a delay.

 

These are important things to watch for.

 

In the future, when someone posts a sale here and posts art and not a sample, we should ask if they are having a sample made. If they don't give a due date for the coin, we should ask when they are expected. We need to remember that there are newbies here that don't know to ask these questions.

 

I hope now that this drama has come to a head, and it has been coming on for a long time, we can get on with the happy coin buying, selling and trading!

[ELTADA]

I would like to add a couple of things from a relatively new collector that is starting to get "the hang" of things.

 

When I first started buying geocoins, I just randomly placed orders based on whether I liked the design or not. Being the trusting person I am, I assumed (ha!) that I would get my coins with no problems. And luckily, I did. I even purchased some coins from a business that many are having trouble with and received mine...being none the wiser.

 

It wasn't until I started getting more involved in the forum and doing more reading on threads that I realized that there are a few companies that were not delivering the product sold to their customer. I now give more thought to who I buy from.

 

I am using the words "business", "product" and "customer" on purpose as no matter what your personal situation is, if you sell something to someone, you are a business. Before my son was born, I had a small business that I ran while still working full time. I had lots of personal distractions that threatened to get in the way, but I did not think for a second that I could just ignore my responsibilities to my customers.

 

IMO, if you take someone's money and do not supply the product in return, it's stealing...regardless of whether it is a geocoin or a beautiful new Cadillac. Where else in the marketplace is it ok for someone to buy something and not receive the product???

 

I agree that unfortunately, there are a few vendors who think this is ok and it is putting all vendors under the microscope (which I think is wrong - there are many top notch vendors in this business!).

 

I agree with tsun about the rating system. I don't think it would be effective. If a vendor doesn't deliver the product, take them off the list...easy as that. Most people here (I think) understand that the geocoin making business is challenging in many ways and a reasonable delay, coin error, shipping issue, etc. is not unusual. As a customer, I get that and when I buy geocoins (or trade them!), I know that I could run into one of these hiccups that will delay the coin. But, I fully expect to either get the coin or receive a refund. So if there are vendors out there not hopping on board with this, they need to be delisted. (the next question is "what is a reasonable time period?" which I think GPX Nav mentioned. Perhaps some of the vendors could give some suggestions on timelines based on their experiences?

 

A pinned thread for discussion on vendors/coins?? Not sure of the ground rules on this but it would be helpful for new collectors to read reviews and I think this could also be used as evidence for delisting a vendor. And hey! What about a chance to for customers to provide positive feedback too? I have had excellent interactions with some vendors that I would certainly share if there was a place...though now I guess that could be done on the coin thread.

 

Whew! I think that was my longest post ever! And I am sure I repeated some thoughts but kudos if you had the patience to read through it!

[+ThirstyMick]

This is getting too complicated.

 

I'm having a hard time conceptualizing how Groundspeak could even implement a rating system fairly. Since no transactions go through groundspeaks servers theres no way to mandate that a single user can give a single feedback vote per sale (i supposed they could do ip address and a time limit?) what's to stop somebody who has a personal issue with a seller from voting negatively over and over even having never bought anything from the seller?

 

And traders, oy. the arguments that go back and forth in here between everybody, I can see that rating system being abused. not saying everyone will, just that it seems like a bigger headache for Groundspeak than it's worth.

 

But I'll agree with the sentiment that sellers who don't deliver coins that were paid for ought to be removed from the approved vendors list. These things do come up in here and I think we all know who to avoid by now, but a newer coiner will see the names on the approved vendors list and assume (rightfully so) that means that the vendor has groundspeaks seal of approval.

[+River Cacher]

I think if there is a system put in place that it would be fair to discuss or get input from the coin companies as this could effect the way they do things. They may have better suggestions on how to run the system that would be fair to them.

They may also be able to figure out a way to help protect the buyers.

When construction work is done most contractors are required to be bonded.

Bonds are not hard to get in most states but I am not sure if you can get these for retail sales?

I had one in Oregon that was under 200.00 a year but it insured my customers I would complete what i started. This is just an idea