Have gas prices affected your geocaching?

[+sseegars]

Anti-gouging laws on the other hand only create artificial shortages, and leave unnecessarily high numbers of genuinely needy people with no gas to buy at any price.

 

Exactly the same "genuinely needy people" that can't afford the same gas that is going at $3.00 + before the bogus situation we have now.

[+KBI]

How does a gas station "harm" its customers when those customers are freely and willingly paying the advertised price?

It's not the gas stations doing it.

When the station owner’s supply is temporarily cut off due to evacuations at the refinery, he can easily stretch his existing inventory by raising the price, encouraging only the neediest consumers to buy his limited gas. He must also consider increases to his wholesale rates, and what the next tankerload is going to cost him. He’s not going to pay for the next truckload with an IOU – they might not sell it to him on credit in the hopes that he can keep his price up after the temporary economic event.

 

With which part of that do you disagree?

 

No business owner with any sense is going to do anything to damage his own livelihood; why, then would he "harm" his customers?

When the company(ies) have a virtual monopoly on the industry and can.

Companies harm their customers ... "because they can?"

 

How does a gas station "harm" its customers when those customers are freely and willingly paying the advertised price?

 

It is? What accounting measure do you use to determine 'complete absurdity?' How, exactly, do you decide how much profit is acceptable to you?

One where we are told the reason for the increase is completely bogus, puts a squeeze on everyone except for those who are controlling the price.

If you think there is fraud, then you should encourage you elected officials to take action and punish the offenders.

 

Maybe the oil companies are guilty of collusion. I see no reason to believe it, but I can’t prove it one way or the other. If, however, they’ve chosen the last 48 hours to pull their collusion scam, just at the moment when there is maximum glaring-spotlight political attention on them, then you have to question their criminal intelligence.

 

Question: Given the following two choices, which would you prefer: $6.00 per gallon gas available to you for purchase, or no gas available to buy at all, at any price?

You really think those two are options?

Yes, I do. It's happening right now.

 

The question is a real-world dilemma designed to illustrate the artificial problems caused by anti-gouging laws.

 

The gas company will not allow there to be no fuel.

Sorry, but that is factually incorrect.

 

Not only has DoctorWho already reported shortages in his neighborhood; we have had significant shortages right here in the Atlanta area over the past 24 hours. It’s all over the news. (You might want to have a look at your newspaper, or turn on the TV.)

 

I blame my Governor for mucking with the free-market gas price in order to pander to outraged and economically ignorant voters.

 

There might be shortage, but if you have nothing to sell, you don't make any money (except for bail-out money from a sympathetic administration.) Those two options aren't the only options. The gas companies can charge their gas stations less, turn less of a profit and still be profitable.

I find it interesting that consumers never hesitate to demand price caps – yet they never demand price floors. Isn’t anybody ever worried about companies not making enough revenue? Where is the fairness?

 

If and when Detroit discovers the secret to 200 MPG cars and the demand for gas drops, will we see concerned consumers lobbying their government to protect oil companies from the low and plummiting prices? It’s only fair, right?

[+sseegars]

If and when Detroit discovers the secret to 200 MPG cars and the demand for gas drops, will we see concerned consumers lobbying their government to protect oil companies from the low and plummiting prices? It’s only fair, right?

 

Excellent question. Like I said, I have no problem paying a fair price, though the particular formula for settling on that fair price will not be settled here.

[+KBI]

Anti-gouging laws on the other hand only create artificial shortages, and leave unnecessarily high numbers of genuinely needy people with no gas to buy at any price.

?

It is simple, basic economics.

 

I refer both of you back to the excellent analogy DoctorWho posted earlier:

 

The term price gouging refers to the phenomenon of sharply rising prices of items in (often temporary) high demand.

 

It is semantically loaded with negative connotations against the merchants involved. However, according to Thomas Sowell's book, Basic Economics, high prices can instead be viewed as information for use in determining the best allocation of scarce resources for which there are multiple uses. Thus, when a natural disaster strikes, and the price of plywood jumps up, a hobbyist considering a new base for his model railroad layout may opt to wait until prices have returned to pre-crisis levels, just to give one example.

In Thomas Sowell's example, the hobbyist balks at the price spike, and chooses not to buy his plywood during the temporary period of high demand.

 

The hobbyist is less needy of the plywood.

 

The coastal resident who wishes to protect his windows from the approaching hurricane, on the other hand, is willing to pay much more than the usual market price for the plywood. He and his neighbors have increased the demand, and therefore the price.

 

The coastal resident is more needy of the plywood. And thanks to the economically self-interested thanks-but-I’ll-pass choices of people like the hobbyist – or the buyer for the school play set construction, or the dad building a tree house, or the geocacher working on a devilish plywood-intensive bit of camuflage – there is more plywood available for the coastal residents to buy.

 

Plywood suppliers, of course, will do everything within their power to make as much plywood available as they can in order to take advantage of the temporary market-supported price increase. Suppliers from other areas will truck in as much as they can carry ... unless there is an artificially-controlled-by-government low price, that is.

 

Plywood, gasoline, chain saws, batteries – it all works the same: Screw with the natural economics of a temporary demand spike and you get those pesky unintended consequences. Happens every time.

[+KBI]

If and when Detroit discovers the secret to 200 MPG cars and the demand for gas drops, will we see concerned consumers lobbying their government to protect oil companies from the low and plummeting prices? It’s only fair, right?

Excellent question. Like I said, I have no problem paying a fair price, though the particular formula for settling on that fair price will not be settled here.

But that's just my point: We shouldn't even TRY to settle it here. It’s none of our business.

 

It only becomes your business when you find yourself as either an interested potential buyer or an interested potential seller. Okay with the price? Buy the gas! Not happy with the price? Then don’t buy the gas! You are even free to negotiate if you like. Those are the decisions which drive the price. A few people balk at the price, and down it comes.

 

The fairest price of a legally offered product or service is whatever the buyer and the seller jointly say it is. That is the definition of market price, and free people interacting freely with other free people is the ONLY way to determine which price is the most fair.

 

If you prefer centrally-managed government control of ALL your consumer prices, you might try moving to Cuba. Or North Korea. Or hey, maybe even the USSR – how’s it working out for them over in the USSR these days?

[+KBI]

To anyone who wishes to further debate the economics and appropriateness of anti-gouging laws, I would like to point out that this discussion is going more than a little off the original topic for this thread. There is, however, a more appropriate thread going on right now in the Off Topic forum of this website.

 

If anyone wants to debate me further, I’ll meet you there.

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

Our issue is a little more unique.

 

I find our immediate area to be not cache dense (relative to population, plenty of caches compared to many rural areas). Areas not too far from us (like Long Island and NJ) are cache dense, but involve toll bridges and more often than not time and gas wasting traffic.

 

So pretty much most of the caches within say 5-10 miles of our home (not counting the "toll bridge" areas) except the ones that are a little too difficult or are not for bringing our kids we have found at this point. The one direction we can venture out further without the toll/traffic issues is north (and maybe a bit "northeast" into CT) and here is where gas prices have slowed doing that down for us a lot.

[CoyoteRed]

The gas company will not allow there to be no fuel.

Sorry, but that is factually incorrect.

You're confusing gas station with gas company. Intentionally or not, I don't know. But, these are two different things.

 

Not only has DoctorWho already reported shortages in his neighborhood; we have had significant shortages right here in the Atlanta area over the past 24 hours. It’s all over the news. (You might want to have a look at your newspaper, or turn on the TV.)

Give it a day for another truck to get there. ~sheesh~

 

What about grocery stores? You see the exact same thing. Just before a hurricane the shelves empty. Yet, right after, they're full again. Go figure. Where does all that food come from? It's not picked, gathered, proceeded, or whatever the day before. The reserves are there in the warehouse. Same with gas. There are massive holding tanks to hold the fuel after being pumped off the tanker ship. Or did you think there was some sort of pipeline from Texas directly to all of the gas stations similar to the power grid?

 

Additionally, more and more folks have been putting off putting gas in their cars. A lot is because folks can't afford--or should I say don't want to pay that price for the privilege. When I pump I see folks get $10 of fuel. That's, what, 3 gallons, maybe? (I also see more folks run out of gas.) Now, all of these people are running around with mostly empty tanks, mostly because gas prices are on the forefront of their minds and they see a possibility for prices to go up, they panic. More gas is pumped because more folks have emptier tanks to fill. If prices where to go what "could be born" the gas would go to those with money, not the ones with no money and mostly empty tanks.

 

The shortages that are being seen right now are because of the rapid ramp-up of folks buying gas all at once and getting more it at a time. Give it a day or two for the next truck to come in and there will be plenty of fuel for at least the short term.

 

With all of that said, I only have sympathy for the truly or near indigent. Folks could have been driving around with nearly full tanks instead of nearly empty tanks and still be shelling out the same amount of money. It's a matter of discipline. The same discipline that sees folks rake up serious money on credit cards and other debit. "Gimme." I fueled up and stocked up days before Hanna. No last minute rush for me. I also only take the truck when I have to carry something larger than what I can fit on the bike. 50mpg versus 18mpg is a no-brainer. Some folks refuse to make choices or sacrifice. Sure, living prepared is work, but has a better feeling than living on the edge. Just because so many folks refuse to live prepared doesn't make high profits at the expense of others or price gouging excusable.

[+KBI]

The gas company will not allow there to be no fuel.

Sorry, but that is factually incorrect.

You're confusing gas station with gas company. Intentionally or not, I don't know.

The shortages have already been reported. You are free to disagree with the reported facts all you like, regardless of any confusion you may perceive on my part.

 

And as I posted recently:

 

To anyone who wishes to further debate the economics and appropriateness of anti-gouging laws, I would like to point out that this discussion is going more than a little off the original topic for this thread. There is, however, a more appropriate thread going on right now in the Off Topic forum of this website.

 

If anyone wants to debate me further, I’ll meet you there.

If you want to debate this issue with me Coyote, we’ll need to do it there. I believe this discussion is off-topic for this thread.

[+Star*Hopper]

Returning to topic; subheader:

Are Gas Prices Killing Geocaching?

I think it'd be interesting to see a graph linechart plotting the number of 'Found' logs (in USA) week by week from, say, 1/1/08 to present. Anybody know how we could cull the data?

Maybe overlay that with another line showing national gas price average?

 

I think the results (trendline) might be a bit shocking. I know 'Find' reports around here are down to a crawl!!

~*

[dragondrop]

You (American) folk should think yourselves very lucky! We're paying the equivalent of $7.46 a gallon

 

We Brits are currently paying around £1.10 a Litre (and that's gone down over the past few months)

 

£1.10 (1.10GBP) = $1.97 (1.97USD)

(1Litre=3.785 US Gallon)

£1.10 per litre = $7.46 per US Gallon.

[+Star*Hopper]

Yes, we're very "lucky".

 

But then again, I remember when it was $0.269/gallon.

~*

[Mushtang]

Yes, we're very "lucky".

 

But then again, I remember when it was $0.269/gallon.

~*

But back then someone doing really well made $9,000* a year.

 

*(I don't know if this number is accurate, I pulled it out of the air, it's just used for comparison purposes).

[+sbell111]

Just got a text message from my nephew in NC who caches up there and he said due to Hurricane Ike the gas prices this morning shot up to $5.75 a gallon. Then later in the day the governor passed a no-gouging law and prices dropped to $3.70 a gallon. Amazing at how people react....

Your governor apparently doesn't understand supply and demand.

Supply and demand should not allow people to gouge for a commodity.

It keeps that from happening.

 

If someone tries to "gouge" it might be because it's suddenly much more expensive to truck the gas into the area and the actual price of the gas is affected. Or, if a gas station is just trying to take advantage of the situation the gas station down the street could sell gas at the regular price and get all the business, this would force the gas station to lower it's prices again if it wanted to make any money.

Apparently, the governor of NC also keeps it from happening.

Just because the government does something doesn’t make it right.

Sure, but just because all the gas stations in the area want to charge $6.00 a gallon, doesn't make it right. Unfortuantely, as soon as the stations fall in step with one another, the consumer is basically screwed. Sure, we can cut back on our gas usage somewhat by merging trips and such, but we still have to drive to make a living or we basically go bankrupt (like the airlines).

 

I'm all for teh supply and demand argument, but the government has to be able to step in if the public is getting gouged on basic necessities. While some would disagree, I do believe that gas/oil are basic necessities. If the prices get too high, people can't afford to get to work, feed their kids, pay their mortgages. Companies can't afford to operate their businesses. Without some control of these basic costs, the economy suffers badly.

 

 

Help, Help! KBI is picking on me!

Edited September 15, 2008 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

Regarding the oil companies' profits, I keep coming back to simple economics.

 

OPEC decreased the supply and there was a war on in the middle east. Anyone with a brain would know that this would cause gas prices to increase. However, this would not cause oil company profits to go through the roof. You would expect the oil companies to pass the increased costs to consumers, causing gas prices to increase and oil company profits to stay approximately the same. Unfortuinately, the oil companies have passed the rising costs to the consumers and added quite a bit of extra profit for themselves.

 

In my opinion, the amount of profit taking that the oil companies have taken part in over the last several years has been egregious. Unfortunately, consumers (including businesses) are basically unable to do anything about it.

 

In the free market, when prices go up, demand falls off. Demand eventually ceases at a certain price. With necessities (such as gasoline and heating oil), this is not what happens. Instead, as prices go up, demand falls off some as consumers limit unnecessary driving (like most geocaching). This limiting of demand only goes so far, however, because people still need to drive to work, houses need to be heated, etc. People instead are forced to cut spending in other areas. They have stay-cations. They reduce their grocery bills. They scrimp and save. They fall behind on household bills. They still have to buy gas and heating oil, however.

 

Since consumers have no real power in this scenario and the industry has shown that it is unwilling to show restraint, it is appropriate for the government to take action, in my opinion.

Edited September 15, 2008 by sbell111

[+sbell111]

Am I the only one that is reminded of this?

[+nameless301]

Luckily I have not been affected by the gas prices. My geomobile is a motorcycle so I am pretty good on gas. Although finding time to geocache is another issue and in another thread I am sure.

[+Clarkbowman]

I myself would prefer to see no gas for a week or two, Then maybe something might change.

As for getting around I have several horses and a wagon that they will pull.

Any one need a Taxi Horse ride?

 

 

[dscrimp]

It has affected mine. It has also put a severe damper on the number of finds on my caches ... wayyy down from last year. There aren't that many caches with 15 or 20 miles of my house, so I don't search much ... I just hide

 

Dave

[+GrnXnham]

 

With gas prices so high in the USA (compared to what we've been used to, that is), have you found yourself looking for closer caches when you go out?

 

 

No

 

We cache more and drive further now than we used to.

 

Now there is a lot less people out there getting in our way and slowing us down on the roads!

[+SgtSue]

Price - no. Availability, that is a different story. With the hurricane affecting supply in South Carolina there was no caching for me this past weekend. When I left for work Monday morning the corner gas station had no gas. We'll see this weekend what supplies are like before making a decision as to caching or not. If the supplies start to get back to normal I hope to find the time to go caching.

[+KBI]

Just because the government does something doesn’t make it right.

Sure, but just because all the gas stations in the area want to charge $6.00 a gallon, doesn't make it right....

I refer you to this recent post:

 

To anyone who wishes to further debate the economics and appropriateness of anti-gouging laws, I would like to point out that this discussion is going more than a little off the original topic for this thread. There is, however, a more appropriate thread going on right now in the Off Topic forum of this website.

 

If anyone wants to debate me further, I’ll meet you there.

Interested?

[+sbell111]

Just because the government does something doesn’t make it right.

Sure, but just because all the gas stations in the area want to charge $6.00 a gallon, doesn't make it right....

I refer you to this recent post:

 

To anyone who wishes to further debate the economics and appropriateness of anti-gouging laws, I would like to point out that this discussion is going more than a little off the original topic for this thread. There is, however, a more appropriate thread going on right now in the Off Topic forum of this website.

 

If anyone wants to debate me further, I’ll meet you there.

Interested?

I was barely interested three days ago.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Hmmm... I have noticed today something interesting regarding this topic. While browsing the backdoor corridors of the web today, I ran some visitor/user stats on some geocaching sites, and noticed that the total number of unique users/visitors visiting geocaching.com has dropped 31% in the past 3 months. And, I noticed much the same drop for the websites of many (but not all) of the regional geoaching societies and associations in the USA as well. I also ran stats on some typical product vendor websites for non-necessity products in a number of markets, and discovered, on average, a very similar drop over the past 3 months in unique visitors, and, based upon all this, I believe that it is safe to assume that the drop in visits to geocaching.com and many of the regional sites has been caused by the same factor that has reduced visits to many product vendor websites, namely, that the rising price of fuel and the resultant recessionary trend is reducing the amount of spending money available to many people, and thus many folks are reducing their geocaching activities and spending less money on non-necessity consumer items.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Oops! Double post!

Edited September 22, 2008 by Vinny & Sue Team

[GOF and Bacall]

And yet you can still afford to double post.

[+greg1701]

re: gas prices...

 

It has clearly reduced my caching... I just hide now primarily (and all within 2 miles of my home for easy and inexpensive maintenance when necessary..)

 

If I go hunting for Benchmarks or Caches, I now already have to be going to that area for something else.. I can't remember the last time I went on a trip Just To Cache....

 

I call it "Situational Geocaching"...

 

G