Pros and Cons of higher end units

[junkwood]

Hello all,

 

I've had an Explorists 500 for a couple of years now (has it been that long?) and am a novice geocacher. I also use it for hiking and mountain biking. I'm thinking about upgrading to a higher end unit.

 

Even though I'm a tech savy person, hand held GPS units are still fairly foreign to me. I just haven't spent the time to do my home work on the technology so I'm here for some info. I've been reading up on The Triton 2000, Oregon 400t and Delorme PN-40. For the more GPS savy users here, what would you say are the pros and cons to each unit?

 

A few random thoughts:

 

Triton 2000: Magellan doesn't seem to be doing very well so it may be best to stay away from this?

 

Oregon 400t vs Delorme PN-40: If you were to take away the touch screen from the 400t, how would these two compare?

 

Thanks!

Edited September 7, 2008 by junkwood

[+embra]

I agree with your Triton assessment.

 

Of the other two you mentioned, a couple things that come to mind:

 

--OR has much bigger screen, seems to have a little better geocaching features

 

--PN-40 has more imagery options, is cheaper

 

--OR appears to still be shaking our their bugs; jury is out on the PN-40 until release (the beta seems to be going well from my perspective...I'd use it as it is)

 

I trust you've reviewed Ratsneve's GPS Map Challenge thread. There are lots of PN-40--CO/OR contrasts presented there.

[+Map Monkey]

--PN-40 has more imagery options, is cheaper

Let's just assume that the OP isn't in the US ..... as they haven't provided any location information.

 

Anyway, I assume the OR is easier to use than the PN-40?....he did state "Even though I'm a tech savy person, hand held GPS units are still fairly foreign to me."

 

No mention of battery life compared Embra.

 

mm

[+Ratsneve]

If I could do it all over again I would sit on my money for two months starting mid September while tracking all the new talked about GPSr that are portable, do paperless geocaching, have "good enough" battery life, and offer enough features and gadgetry and cost effective mapping to keep me happy. Current problems: I like bigger screens that are easy to see in all lighting conditions, long battery life, accurate terrain and city maps, 3-axis electronic compass over 2-axis, seriously bug free hardware and software, technical support I can trust and easily communicate with and get feedback from, and (pick any of the above and repeat. ).

 

If I HAD to buy something sight unseen today I would at least buy it from REI, even if it cost a little more but was still under list price, so I would have a no-questions-asked unlimited return policy. (Buying a Colorado plus 2 maps still puts me around $600, gave me no money back return policy, and leaves me at Garmin's mercy--which I'm happy to report is one thing that isn't bad. Still I'm ending up next with an Oregon that continues to struggle but does a better job of it then the Colorado, but perhaps with the exception of the Oregons's last software update that might best be characterized as "sucking".

Edited September 7, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+embra]

Let's just assume that the OP isn't in the US ..... as they haven't provided any location information.

 

Anyway, I assume the OR is easier to use than the PN-40?....he did state "Even though I'm a tech savy person, hand held GPS units are still fairly foreign to me."

 

Yeah, well, it's game over if he's outside the US...the PN-40 is decidedly US-centric (as I seem to be, too )

 

No mention of battery life compared Embra.

 

Yep, that's still under development. In the past, some Garmins (I'm thinking of the 60cs series) have have very impressive battery life. The PN-20 was so-so.

[+EScout]

Re: Original Post:

You do biking and hiking. The eXplorist is probably the best when it comes to laying tracks, managing tracks, etc. You can save tracks to the internal and/or SD card in unlimited files and folders/subfolders. You can copy from one to the other of these "drives." In the unit, you can convert any track to a route and store these in unlimited files and folders/subfolders. You can then follow a route or backtrack a route.

Track files are CSV text files and are easily converted to any format and used on maps. programs such as SportTracks, and for geotagging photos, and more. The explorist has an excellent receiver and other good features, including topo maps and street maps with drive instruction routing.

The only reason you should consider a newer unit is if you want aerial photo maps and the ability to create custom maps with overlays.

[junkwood]

Re: Original Post:

You do biking and hiking. The eXplorist is probably the best when it comes to laying tracks, managing tracks, etc. You can save tracks to the internal and/or SD card in unlimited files and folders/subfolders. You can copy from one to the other of these "drives." In the unit, you can convert any track to a route and store these in unlimited files and folders/subfolders. You can then follow a route or backtrack a route.

Track files are CSV text files and are easily converted to any format and used on maps. programs such as SportTracks, and for geotagging photos, and more. The explorist has an excellent receiver and other good features, including topo maps and street maps with drive instruction routing.

The only reason you should consider a newer unit is if you want aerial photo maps and the ability to create custom maps with overlays.

 

You obviously know more about the unit than I. I've struggled with it and the editing software that it came with (or did it come with Topo 3d Mapsend?). Everything from navigating options/functions to the editor just seems clunky to me. Maybe I'm expecting too much from the current state of the technology?

 

I'm the guy tapping his fingers thinking "Yeah, yeah.... Oregon 400t, Delorme PN-40... Go ahead and bring out the Oregon 4000 and the Delorme PN-400 that you have stashed back in the warehouse waiting." Thats partially why the Triton 2000 caught my eye. Touch screen, camera (even if low res), voice recorder etc.

 

That may sound cheesey to the purists here but for me, a camera and voice recorder would come in really handy while I'm exploring or charting new territory. Especially if that media data is tied to the map data in an intuitive way which can also be edited/exported/imported in an intuitive way. And even if the interface is a bit clunky, at least it'll be easier to navigate with a touch screen.

[junkwood]

I trust you've reviewed Ratsneve's GPS Map Challenge thread. There are lots of PN-40--CO/OR contrasts presented there.

 

I've been chipping away at it. Thanks for the input!

 

Btw, I am in the US.

[junkwood]

If I could do it all over again I would sit on my money for two months starting mid September while tracking all the new talked about GPSr that are portable, do paperless geocaching, have "good enough" battery life, and offer enough features and gadgetry and cost effective mapping to keep me happy.

 

Other than the Delorme, what else is around the bend?

 

If I HAD to buy something sight unseen today I would at least buy it from REI, even if it cost a little more but was still under list price, so I would have a no-questions-asked unlimited return policy. (Buying a Colorado plus 2 maps still puts me around $600, gave me no money back return policy, and leaves me at Garmin's mercy--which I'm happy to report is one thing that isn't bad. Still I'm ending up next with an Oregon that continues to struggle but does a better job of it then the Colorado, but perhaps with the exception of the Oregons's last software update that might best be characterized as "sucking".

 

Isn't technology grand?! Yeah, it sucks buying sight unseen. And if you do spot one in the department store, fat chance of getting someone to actually start a unit up so you can at least flip through the menus.

[+Team CowboyPapa]

If I could do it all over again I would sit on my money for two months starting mid September while tracking all the new talked about GPSr that are portable, do paperless geocaching, have "good enough" battery life, and offer enough features and gadgetry and cost effective mapping to keep me happy. Current problems: I like bigger screens that are easy to see in all lighting conditions, long battery life, accurate terrain and city maps, 3-axis electronic compass over 2-axis, seriously bug free hardware and software, technical support I can trust and easily communicate with and get feedback from, and (pick any of the above and repeat. ).

 

Did you forget about playing your MP3s? Me too, I'm sick of carrying around a separate Sandisk Sansa!

[+Hrethgir]

You mentioned mountain biking, how do you intend to carry the GPS when doing that? If you want to handlebar mount it, keep in mind that I don't think there are any good handlebar mounting solutions for the Oregon or Colorado. I have a Garmin eTrex Legend HCx (not exactly a "high-end" model, found it online for $188 shipped brand new), but I use it for geocaching, on my motorcycle both to save tracks and as a more accurate speedometer, and I also use it on my mountain bike, the handlebar mount for it works really well. Just something to keep in mind.

[+Redwoods Mtn Biker]

There's a RAM mount for the Colorado (not that I am in any way recommending getting a Colorado), and I understand one for the Oregon is on its way.

[junkwood]

You mentioned mountain biking, how do you intend to carry the GPS when doing that? If you want to handlebar mount it, keep in mind that I don't think there are any good handlebar mounting solutions for the Oregon or Colorado. I have a Garmin eTrex Legend HCx (not exactly a "high-end" model, found it online for $188 shipped brand new), but I use it for geocaching, on my motorcycle both to save tracks and as a more accurate speedometer, and I also use it on my mountain bike, the handlebar mount for it works really well. Just something to keep in mind.

 

Thanks for the heads up but I have a gadget bag with MOLLIE straps that fits perfectly on the center of my handle bars. I usually carry my GPSr, phone, etc. Works great. The eXplorists I have now has never had a problem tracking from inside of it.

[+Renegade Knight]

I'd start with a simple question. What do you want that your current GPS doesn't do? As it is, the 500 is a good GPS by itself. If everthing else out there doesn't do the 'magic' thing better enough than your current GPS. Save the money.

 

For example. One thing I want is more waypoints. My quick calcs tell me I need 3500 minimum. Nothing I know of does that directly (there are some tricks but they take work) were I don't have to futz with the waypoints or files.

 

Arial photographs would be nice, but I'm not paying for maps that I can just download. I'll pay a lot for the GPS, but not the maps. What exists seems to want you limit you to how many arial maps you can download. Now if the quality was on a par with 1m per pixel or better, maybe I'd pay. Or maybe not. I have better quality at work (just not on my GPS...but I could probably export it if the GPS software let me...)

Edited September 9, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[reef mapper]

I have a real problem with the short-sighted/clueless restrictions that are placed on GPSrs. If a unit can display calibrated rasters, why can't I load them? Why do I have to be limited to accessing only those images provided for the US and by the GPSr manufacturer? Can you spell Global? Take a look at the baseline map in a Garmin for e.g. the Caribbean - for which nothing better is available from them. Can you say "kiddies play sketch?"

 

Is it a fear that masses will start producing their own maps and deprive Garmin/Delorme et al of millions in topo sales? What a crock. Have you tried making your own maps or making rasters for a Garmin 60Csx? I do it because there is no other source and I can tell you there won't be multitudes of people getting into it to save costs if there are maps available. I would bet that the number of people engaged in making Garmin-compatible maps is a fraction of 0.1% of the number of Garmin owners. Why alienate the serious users? They really aren't a threat to profits!

 

Meanwhile, thanks to the reverse engineers, I'll be loading an aerial photo to my 60Csx for work tomorrow.

 

Manufacturers - wake up!

[+user13371]

[deleted]

Edited September 9, 2008 by lee_rimar

[junkwood]

I'd start with a simple question. What do you want that your current GPS doesn't do? As it is, the 500 is a good GPS by itself. If everthing else out there doesn't do the 'magic' thing better enough than your current GPS. Save the money.

 

I'd really like paperless geocaching. As I've said above, the touch screen idea is a winner in my book but not a definitive feature. More intuitive usage overall. The ability to intuitively edit routes, maps etc would be a plus. Areial imagery is a plus but like you, I'll pay the cost up front for the right unit but won't buy maps after the fact. So the more open ended the better. And I do realise that "intuitive" is subjective.

 

Arial photographs would be nice, but I'm not paying for maps that I can just download. I'll pay a lot for the GPS, but not the maps. What exists seems to want you limit you to how many arial maps you can download. Now if the quality was on a par with 1m per pixel or better, maybe I'd pay. Or maybe not. I have better quality at work (just not on my GPS...but I could probably export it if the GPS software let me...)

 

What are some of the open ended GPSr's available (if any). Ones that give you the ability to export, edit, import various data.

[junkwood]

Is it a fear that masses will start producing their own maps and deprive Garmin/Delorme et al of millions in topo sales? What a crock. Have you tried making your own maps or making rasters for a Garmin 60Csx? I do it because there is no other source and I can tell you there won't be multitudes of people getting into it to save costs if there are maps available. I would bet that the number of people engaged in making Garmin-compatible maps is a fraction of 0.1% of the number of Garmin owners. Why alienate the serious users? They really aren't a threat to profits!

 

Meanwhile, thanks to the reverse engineers, I'll be loading an aerial photo to my 60Csx for work tomorrow.

 

Manufacturers - wake up!

 

Agreed - technology that is close ended just to milk more dollars realy gets under my skin. I own a small computer shop. I remember thinking years ago when hardware started becoming easier to install and configure (even though the first PNP really stood for Plug -n - Pray) as well as software becoming more and more common that in the years to come, computer shops like mine would no longer exisit. People could do everything themselves. Seven years later, I'm still in business and going strong. Thats because the general populas doesn't have either the patience, skill or time to solve their computer problems. Most would rather pay for the "Service". The convienence of not having to deal with it. I do the same with some things.

 

So I agree.... leaving the units open ended for the most part will not hurt sales. In alot of cases helps R&D for future products.

[+Team DeLorme]

This is an excellent discussion and I hope you don't mind me jumping in here... you're discussing our GPS and I do think we are hearing what you're saying... We agree completely with the two types of users that you're describing, the consumer that is looking for easy access to maps, charts, and imagery... and the serious user that is looking to pull in all the free data they know is available on-line.

 

We targeted the consumer first when we put the Earthmate PN-20 out with Topo USA and the ability to buy additional data through our NetLink download site. We got great feedback on the concept of taking high resolution aerial imagery into the field on a GPS device... along with lots of requests to make the device faster and make the additional data types cheaper. We'll be releasing the PN-40 in October with a Cartesio chipset from STMicro and a blazing fast dual core processor. At the same time we'll launch our Map Library subscription which gives you access to all of our data types for $29.95, unlimited download for a year... that includes 24K USGS quads, 1 meter high res color aerial imagery, nautical charts from NOAA, and our Topographic dataset... all for the entire US.

 

I can hear you typing already... why pay for data that is free... well, with our XMap software you don't have to. You can load MrSID and GeoTIFF files from your state GIS library and view that imagery on your desktop or load it into your Earthmate PN-Series device. I have six inch resolution imagery for my house and for DeLorme's headquarters... it's amazing to see the detail. Some might call it overkill for geocaching but I'll take all the advantage I can get... imagery has helped me choose a path more than once when topographic data didn't have anything to offer.

 

You can also use XMap and the ImageReg tool to register a scanned image on the map. I did this today for a "learn to geocache" event I'm helping with. The host of the event sent me a CAD screenshot of their campus and trail system and I registered it in XMap with a transparent background, overlaid it on the high res aerial imagery, and placed all the geocaches on the map. I transferred all of this to the PN-40 and will be ready to go on Saturday.

 

Sorry, I hope this didn't trigger anyone's anti-marketing reaction. I do work for DeLorme... I manage their design department and I get excited when I see people talking about our sweet spot in this industry... maps on a GPS device. Our pitch for a while has been that it's all about the maps…

 

Reef mapper, fire me a PM if you have any questions about the PN-40. Your kayak mapping system caught the eye of a few lurkers here in the building... that's a very cool setup! Anyone else with questions about getting free data onto the PN, just let me know.

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

[reef mapper]

Thanks for that Chip. Actually that second group isn't only about free material to download. Outside the US that can be very limited. There are no free downloads finer than Landsat for this region and much of the rest of the world. Working on a management plan for a management area in Trinidad involved purchasing Ikonos imagery which I have processed for the 60Csx. The high-res airphotos I use for reef and mangrove mapping come from Govt and are normally very expensive. For a UN forest mapping project I needed the best detail possible in the field so I was trekking around with my Thinkpad with 0.6m Digital Globe images and live tracking. Now THAT would have been easier if I could have had the images on a GPSr!

Cheers.

[+TotemLake]

I agree with your Triton assessment.

 

Of the other two you mentioned, a couple things that come to mind:

 

--OR has much bigger screen, seems to have a little better geocaching features

 

--PN-40 has more imagery options, is cheaper

 

--OR appears to still be shaking our their bugs; jury is out on the PN-40 until release (the beta seems to be going well from my perspective...I'd use it as it is)

 

I trust you've reviewed Ratsneve's GPS Map Challenge thread. There are lots of PN-40--CO/OR contrasts presented there.

Great link. I'm now solid on the purchase of the PN-40 when it comes out.

 

Thanks guys for all the work you're doing keeping us informed!

[junkwood]

We'll be releasing the PN-40 in October with a Cartesio chipset from STMicro and a blazing fast dual core processor. At the same time we'll launch our Map Library subscription which gives you access to all of our data types for $29.95, unlimited download for a year... that includes 24K USGS quads, 1 meter high res color aerial imagery, nautical charts from NOAA, and our Topographic dataset... all for the entire US.

 

I can hear you typing already... why pay for data that is free... well, with our XMap software you don't have to. You can load MrSID and GeoTIFF files from your state GIS library and view that imagery on your desktop or load it into your Earthmate PN-Series device. I have six inch resolution imagery for my house and for DeLorme's headquarters... it's amazing to see the detail. Some might call it overkill for geocaching but I'll take all the advantage I can get... imagery has helped me choose a path more than once when topographic data didn't have anything to offer.

 

You can also use XMap and the ImageReg tool to register a scanned image on the map. I did this today for a "learn to geocache" event I'm helping with. The host of the event sent me a CAD screenshot of their campus and trail system and I registered it in XMap with a transparent background, overlaid it on the high res aerial imagery, and placed all the geocaches on the map. I transferred all of this to the PN-40 and will be ready to go on Saturday.

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

 

I'm impressed! Sounds like a great deal. Is there an "Xmap lite" that ships with the pn-40? Or perhaps a freeware alternative for the hobbiest?

[+embra]

Delorme has been making XMap Pro available to PN-20 owners for half-price ($99) for a good while now. They also have a PN-20/XMap bundled package. I'm not sure which is the cheapest way to go out of the starting gate, but I fully expect them to offer similar arrangements with the PN-40.

 

No relevant freeware alternatives to my knowledge.

Edited September 11, 2008 by embra

[gps_dr]

The 1 Meter color aerial imagery I used on the Beta PN-40 was invaluable for going cross country in the Colorado mountains last week. I could pick out the continuous logging cuts (now game trails) from the dead end ones. I really hate maneuvering thru-over-under-around dead-falls.

 

It is a great unit for biking as well.

I have over 1200 miles of Colorado Front Range bike trails as a map overlay on it.

I use my DeLorme PN20 & Garmin 76CSx units together to map bike trails - both have been very reliable.

 

It is an awesome unit!

 

Currently own:

Garmin Colorado 400t

DeLorme PN-20

Garmin 76CSx

DeLorme PN-20

Brunton/Lowrance MNS/Expedition

Garmin 76

Garmin 12XL

Edited September 11, 2008 by gps_dr

[junkwood]

Delorme has been making XMap Pro available to PN-20 owners for half-price ($99) for a good while now. They also have a PN-20/XMap bundled package. I'm not sure which is the cheapest way to go out of the starting gate, but I fully expect them to offer similar arrangements with the PN-40.

 

No relevant freeware alternatives to my knowledge.

 

Lets hope so. Overall I think I'm sold on the 40. I'm at work right now and can't dig back through the threads, but how was the geocache features? Will it have paperless geocaching?

 

And thanks for the input as well gps_dr!

[junkwood]

Delorme has been making XMap Pro available to PN-20 owners for half-price ($99) for a good while now. They also have a PN-20/XMap bundled package. I'm not sure which is the cheapest way to go out of the starting gate, but I fully expect them to offer similar arrangements with the PN-40.

 

No relevant freeware alternatives to my knowledge.

 

Lets hope so. Overall I think I'm sold on the 40. I'm at work right now and can't dig back through the threads, but how was the geocache features? Will it have paperless geocaching?

 

And thanks for the input as well gps_dr!

 

Ah, found the info. Supports 800 characters currently for geocache description.

 

http://blog.delorme.com/2008/06/25/announc...arthmate-pn-40/

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Delorme has been making XMap Pro available to PN-20 owners for half-price ($99) for a good while now. They also have a PN-20/XMap bundled package. I'm not sure which is the cheapest way to go out of the starting gate, but I fully expect them to offer similar arrangements with the PN-40.

 

No relevant freeware alternatives to my knowledge.

 

Lets hope so. Overall I think I'm sold on the 40. I'm at work right now and can't dig back through the threads, but how was the geocache features? Will it have paperless geocaching?

 

And thanks for the input as well gps_dr!

 

Ah, found the info. Supports 800 characters currently for geocache description.

 

http://blog.delorme.com/2008/06/25/announc...arthmate-pn-40/

 

Yes, I have a Premium Membership (required to download the GPX file for a cache) and I am paperless with an PN-20/40. However, there is a small percentage of caches whose comment field exceeds 800 characters. I manually edit (delete some characters) those few in the Topo USA 7.0 application after downloading the GPX file and prior to sending it to the PN-20/40.

[+g-o-cashers]

Does that 800 characters include any previous logs?

 

GO$Rs

Edited September 11, 2008 by g-o-cashers

[+Team CowboyPapa]

Yes, it does, in the latest Topo USA 7.0 revision, which I expect will be included with the PN-40s. Specifically, the "Hint" is moved up to just after the numerical difficulty ratings so it precedes the commentary. If that falls short of 800, the remainder if filled from the most recent logs.

 

Anybody want my old notebook binders?

[+g-o-cashers]

Cool. Any talk of fieldnote support?

 

GO$Rs

[+Team DeLorme]

Does that 800 characters include any previous logs?

 

GO$Rs

We've configured the GPX import process to place the cache details in the comment field of the geocache waypoint. You will see the Cache Name, Owner, Type, Size, Difficulty, Terrain, Items, Hint, Description, and Logs assuming all of it fits within the 800 character limit. If the Description is too long the Logs will get clipped off.

 

Everyone here at DeLorme wants to see unlimited cache details too, it's on our list and we hope to be able to pick it off in one of the early firmware updates. Trust me, I'll be announcing it here as soon as we have it ready!

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

[junkwood]

We've configured the GPX import process to place the cache details in the comment field of the geocache waypoint. You will see the Cache Name, Owner, Type, Size, Difficulty, Terrain, Items, Hint, Description, and Logs assuming all of it fits within the 800 character limit. If the Description is too long the Logs will get clipped off.

 

Everyone here at DeLorme wants to see unlimited cache details too, it's on our list and we hope to be able to pick it off in one of the early firmware updates. Trust me, I'll be announcing it here as soon as we have it ready!

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

 

Shouldn't be a big deal since you can edit the ones that exceed the limit before sending it to the unit as CowboyPop suggested.