Is this ethical?

[+Droo]

Something really weird just happened and I had never heard or seen such a thing before and need to get some feedback from others on this.

 

A coin purchased from a reputable 3rd party vendour was bought and paid for then activated and dropped off in a "stash cache". Months go by and then I get a discovery log from the coinmaker. What the.....?!

 

So my question is this. Does a coinmaker have a right to use tracking #s to coins sold to others? Once he's made a profit from the sale of his coin does he have the right to go through his database of tracking #s and log "virtual" discoveries to the coins he sold off?

[+tsunrisebey]

No it's not ethical to answer the question.

 

Did you or whoever owns the coin ask "what's up with this?" Maybe it was an unintentional accident. Ya never know....

[+Hula Bum]

I take it he didn't go to the cache? No, virtual logging of any kind is not ok, if that's what it really is, that's just dumb.

[+joranda]

Is it really a "Virtual" discovery if you bought it from him and he had it in his hand and put it in the mail. I guess what I am saying is if he had the coin in his hand before, how is it a virtual discovery? I have do trade with others, personal coin for personal coin and we both discovered each others. I think it is cool that the coin maker wants to discover the coin I had gotten from them. Kind of like honor.

[+tsunrisebey]

Is it really a "Virtual" discovery if you bought it from him and he had it in his hand and put it in the mail. I guess what I am saying is if he had the coin in his hand before, how is it a virtual discovery? I have do trade with others, personal coin for personal coin and we both discovered each others. I think it is cool that the coin maker wants to discover the coin I had gotten from them. Kind of like honor.

 

Couple comments;

 

Once you pay for a coin activated or not, the coin is yours not the person who sold it (no matter if it was a vendor or ebayer). The seller has no right to log a coin once it's sold. The proper thing to do is asked the new owner if it is ok to log the coin, not just log it.

 

It is a virtual log because it is placed in a 'stash cache' and the only way to view the coin is to visit the 'stash cache' be it at home or an actual cache. It's not like an event where people sometimes take a month to log a coin you purposely put out for people to discover.

 

If I bought an activated coin from someone, I don't want them logging it without asking me first because it's all MINE muahahahahahaha.

[Maine Family]

The person discovered mine, my daughters and my brother-in-laws and when I checked the profile he had discovered 29 of them. Ours has never been in a cache. I wrote to Eartha and she replied back so she will probably reply here. Being the one who made it, must have seen it when he shipped it out. People like to collect the icons, and I guess he wanted that icon under both of his lists, found, and owned. I wouldn't hold it against him for logging a discovery. So yeah he has seen the coin.

[+tsunrisebey]

I must be missing something here.....

[+Hula Bum]

He/she saw the coin before it was activated I assume, so it was virtual at the point it was logged, because it wasn't active when he saw it.....

[+Droo]

Is it really a "Virtual" discovery if you bought it from him and he had it in his hand and put it in the mail. I guess what I am saying is if he had the coin in his hand before, how is it a virtual discovery? I have do trade with others, personal coin for personal coin and we both discovered each others. I think it is cool that the coin maker wants to discover the coin I had gotten from them. Kind of like honor.

The coin was bought from a vendour, a large vendour who often makes personal coins for folks and sells them. I got the coin and code directly from the vendour website. This was not a personal interaction with coin maker.

 

Under normal circumstances I would agree that to have the maker find the coin in a cache and discover it is a great honour. But in this case the coin never saw a cache (just the archived "stash cache") and in my opinion the coin maker is "poaching" discoveries out of his database of sold tracking #s.

 

Anyway I deleted his post, emailed him my reasons and got a rather nasty response in return.

[Maine Family]

When he logged ours today he logged them for 5/10/2007 and we didn't activate them until 7/03/07

[+Hula Bum]

That really is NOT cool. This should be reported to GS, as obviously it's not a mistake or an isolated one time mistake.

[+Droo]

BTW, this has nothing to do with the vendour. They just happened to have brokered the minting of the coin and its sale, I pressume. It's the guy who the coin was made for who is claiming "ownership" or rights to the list of tracking#s sold to customers with the coins who is doing this without even asking if it's okay.

 

I mean if you own a house would you expect to find the builder in your bedroom one fine evening just checking out his handywork?

[Maine Family]

Something really weird just happened and I had never heard or seen such a thing before and need to get some feedback from others on this.

 

A coin purchased from a reputable 3rd party vendour was bought and paid for then activated and dropped off in a "stash cache". Months go by and then I get a discovery log from the coinmaker. What the.....?!

 

So my question is this. Does a coinmaker have a right to use tracking #s to coins sold to others? Once he's made a profit from the sale of his coin does he have the right to go through his database of tracking #s and log "virtual" discoveries to the coins he sold off?

I sent you an email to see if we are talking about the same person. The person who did ours has now discovered 116 of the coins he made today.

[+Droo]

When he logged ours today he logged them for 5/10/2007 and we didn't activate them until 7/03/07

So I'm curious how you feel about it especially since you've found he's logged discoveries to 119 of "his" coins.

 

EDIT: up to 122 coins now.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Droo

[+Hula Bum]

OK, where is a mod? It seems to me that this is a situation that merits the name of this person being disclosed, buyer beware, it's not bad mouthing, but isn't that what this community is for?

[Maine Family]

When he logged ours today he logged them for 5/10/2007 and we didn't activate them until 7/03/07

So I'm curious how you feel about it especially since you've found he's logged discoveries to 119 of "his" coins.

I didn't like it because I bought the the three coins and gave one to my daughter and one to my brother-in-law and I kept the third one. I bought them because of an event that happened while we was caching and no one but us had seen them or discovered them. I wanted to just delete the discovery but instead I wrote to Eartha to find out what the policy was because he said he was the one who made it and discovered it before I even had bought it but it made no sense why he did it today because we have had the coin a long time. I never thought that the person who made the coin would have the right to discover it or have any rights to it once I paid for it. But this is the reply I got from Eartha.

There really isn't a firm policy when it comes to logging, other than you should have seen the coin in person in order to discover it. People should not virtually discover trackable items they have never seen. It's considered abuse of the system, and can result in having a trackable item's page locked, so no one can log it. The person being the one who made it, must have seen it when he shipped it out. People like to collect the icons, and I guess he wanted that icon under both of his lists, found, and owned. I wouldn't hold it against him for logging a discovery. There is a lot more information about trackable items in the updated Groundspeak Knowledge base:

So it looks like the person who made it has the right to do it and that changes my thinking on buying coins. I buy some for sending out but I buy others for personal reasons and that was what that coin was just for the three of us. So no I don't like it.

[+Koolbrez]

maybe if you post the coin names that were logged it would kind of hint to who made them without mentioning names. It might inform others who have that coin to look at there coins.

[+Hula Bum]

I don't think GS ever saw this coming up, so there would be no rule for it, but as new cachers come in, apparently so comes a new lack of ethics. Perhaps it's time that TPTB make a rule, cuz if the maker can make discoveries on my coins off his special list, then I'm pretty sure I don't want to be buying coins from that person. It surprises me that Eartha would actually think this is ok.

[+Hula Bum]

So, I was just informed that this person is not new to caching.... New to coins? Or just completely lacking in ethics?

[Maine Family]

She probably was like me and didn't think he was going to discover everyone he made that is activated although maybe he can discover the ones that isn't activated. I thought mine was just an isolated incident. This isn't a new cacher.

[+Droo]

When he logged ours today he logged them for 5/10/2007 and we didn't activate them until 7/03/07

So I'm curious how you feel about it especially since you've found he's logged discoveries to 119 of "his" coins.

I didn't like it because I bought the the three coins and gave one to my daughter and one to my brother-in-law and I kept the third one. I bought them because of an event that happened while we was caching and no one but us had seen them or discovered them. I wanted to just delete the discovery but instead I wrote to Eartha to find out what the policy was because he said he was the one who made it and discovered it before I even had bought it but it made no sense why he did it today because we have had the coin a long time. I never thought that the person who made the coin would have the right to discover it or have any rights to it once I paid for it. But this is the reply I got from Eartha.

There really isn't a firm policy when it comes to logging, other than you should have seen the coin in person in order to discover it. People should not virtually discover trackable items they have never seen. It's considered abuse of the system, and can result in having a trackable item's page locked, so no one can log it. The person being the one who made it, must have seen it when he shipped it out. People like to collect the icons, and I guess he wanted that icon under both of his lists, found, and owned. I wouldn't hold it against him for logging a discovery. There is a lot more information about trackable items in the updated Groundspeak Knowledge base:

So it looks like the person who made it has the right to do it and that changes my thinking on buying coins. I buy some for sending out but I buy others for personal reasons and that was what that coin was just for the three of us. So no I don't like it.

Alas he did not "own" the coins before they were sold by the commercial site. He had them minted and bought the tracking #s from GS. But once sold those coins were "cherry". Unactivated, uncirculated, shipped direct from the mint.

 

If this was an a series of activated coins that was sold by the maker I'd have no qualm. If he'd found these coins in caches I'd be happy for the current owners to see the coin maker logging the discovery. Even if he'd given the coins away at Events, in caches or in cointests there'd be no beef. But this is low.

[+LadeBear68]

If Eartha wouldn't hold it against him for logging a discovery and is ok with this conduct I do not want to buy coins from this person. I like the feeling that I am the first to log my coin, not someone who created the design. I dont see any reason why you cannot disclose the person who is doing this. The community has the right to be informed if a moderator is going to be ok with the conduct.

Edited September 7, 2008 by LadeBear68

[+Droo]

Not new to caching at all.... member since 2002!

 

Edit: not new to coins either- 692 moved/discovered, 36 owned.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Droo

[+Droo]

The coin is MUDNURI and has been sold out for a while so there is no risk of buying another coin from this person and having to face ugly emails for not being okay with his virtual discoveries.

 

Edit: I want to stress that the vendour site for the sale of MUDNURI is not complicit in this at all. It is the coinmaker who is doing this all on his own.

Edited September 7, 2008 by Droo

[Maine Family]

I can't think of a reason why he would want to do it to begin with. It just makes no sense and why now. We have had this coin for over a year.

[+Hula Bum]

He has the right to collect money for the coin, that's it, plain and simple, once money exchanges hands, he relinquishes ownership (unless of course it was already stated that he maintained control of the coin and could do with it what he pleases BEFORE you purchased it).

 

Here we go back to the sense of entitlement people seem to have......

[+Eartha]

I wrote back that there is no policy on logging trackables, other than no virtual logging. I should add that if a trackable coin owner doesn't want a discovery on their trackable they could delete the log.

 

Since this hasn't really been discussed before, that I am aware of, perhaps it should be now. There are instructions on how to log, not hard and fast rules. Any trackable owner can maintain their page, but if deleting any discoveries on a trackable, a polite email should be sent explaining why.

 

It would be interesting to hear what everyone has to say.

[Maine Family]

The coin is MUDNURI and has been sold out for a while so there is no risk of buying another coin from this person and having to face ugly emails for not being okay with his virtual discoveries.

 

Edit: I want to stress that the vendour site for the sale of MUDNURI is not complicit in this at all. It is the coinmaker who is doing this all on his own.

And that is how he signed the log, "I Made It" Making it sound like it gave him the right to do it which is why I emailed Eartha.

[+LadeBear68]

Did you buy the coin directly from MUDNURI or a vendor?

[+Eartha]

If Eartha wouldn't hold it against him for logging a discovery and is ok with this conduct I do not want to buy coins from this person. I like the feeling that I am the first to log my coin, not someone who created the design. I dont see any reason why you cannot disclose the person who is doing this. The community has the right to be informed if a moderator is going to be ok with the conduct.

 

I didn't have the whole story. I was not informed how the coin was obtained, and thought it could have been in trade, so a discovery didn't seem wrong to me. The logs can be deleted, with emails sent explaining why.

[RedShoesGirl]

never mind, i still don't get it!

 

rsg

Edited September 7, 2008 by RedShoesGirl

[Maine Family]

I bought it from a coin site listed on geocaching.

[+LadeBear68]

If you did not buy it from him, he never saw your specific coin and isn't it an abuse of the system?

Edited September 7, 2008 by LadeBear68

[+Hula Bum]

If you did not buy it from him, he never saw your specific coin and isn't it an abuse of the system?

 

Yeah, I would call that "virtual" logging, wouldn't you?

[+joranda]

If you did not buy it from him, he never saw your specific coin and isn't it an abuse of the system?

 

So are we pushing for the coin to be locked? I'm sure that isn't what the owner wants.

[+ThePetersTrio]

Wow - this person sounds like they have a gigantic ego and too much time on their hands.

[+LadeBear68]

Absolutely not, but I think the individual virtually logging the coins needs to be warned about the problem from Groundspeak.

Edited September 7, 2008 by LadeBear68

[Maine Family]

I deleted the log. I didn't know if the coin maker had the right to log it as a discovery or not. If that gave him the right and I deleted it then I am wrong so I was trying to find out.

[+Droo]

Did you buy the coin directly from MUDNURI or a vendor?

These coins were personals sold/distributed through an established and reputable vendour site.

[+steel city babes]

If you did not buy it from him, he never saw your specific coin and isn't it an abuse of the system?

 

Yeah, I would call that "virtual" logging, wouldn't you?

 

I agree this is virtually logging of a coin that was purchased from a reputable coin vendor here. He didn't sale this coin personally and probably never even had possession of them to handle them.

 

I am surprised too that he hasn't been warned. He seems a little arrogant with his logs too. I too have one of these in my possession.

 

Neat coin but makes me went to melt it down then he can log it "I made it"....

 

I most certainly would delete his log...and I am not sure I would send him an email unless your are forced to when you delete logs...

[+Droo]

If you did not buy it from him, he never saw your specific coin and isn't it an abuse of the system?

 

So are we pushing for the coin to be locked? I'm sure that isn't what the owner wants.

 

No, not to punish the coin's owner but to discuss if the coin maker has the right to use his database of tracking#s for his personal use after all the coins and the tracking#s are sold. It's a question of who owns the tracking # once you buy an uncirculated, unactvated, mint condition coin.

 

Or if it's not mint condition, ie. straight from the mint, still in the poly bag, do handlers down the line have a right to collect tracking#s to unactivated coins they may sell on Ebay for the purpose of snagging the icon at some future date?

[+sillygirl & jrr]

Interesting, I think if it happened to me I'd delete the discovery too.

 

And I have a related question. If we agree that it's not ethical for a coin maker (who bought the tracking numbers) to "discover" those coins once they have been purchased by others. What to you all think about event organizers/attendees who write down the tracking numbers of unactivated coins that are given away as raffle prizes and discover them later (once the winners have activated them)?

 

I ask since I won a coin at an event raffle and activated it for it to remain in my collection. A few days later there were several "discovered" logs on the coin from cachers (who were at the event). For the most part the logs said "discovered at xxx event." I really wanted to delete the logs, but didn't since a) I knew the people and if they had asked if they could discover the coin I likely would have said yes. I still wish they would have asked first. Is this a common practice?

 

jrr

Edited September 7, 2008 by sillygirl & jrr

[+tsunrisebey]

How did he get the tracking numbers? If this is the coin I think it is and it was sold through a vendor who normally buys the tracking numbers, how did the designer (coin envisioner) get these tracking numbers in the first place? Or were these the coins that were given to the designer (AE/XLE, whatever you want to call it)?

[Maine Family]

I wrote back that there is no policy on logging trackables, other than no virtual logging. I should add that if a trackable coin owner doesn't want a discovery on their trackable they could delete the log.

 

Since this hasn't really been discussed before, that I am aware of, perhaps it should be now. There are instructions on how to log, not hard and fast rules. Any trackable owner can maintain their page, but if deleting any discoveries on a trackable, a polite email should be sent explaining why.

 

It would be interesting to hear what everyone has to say.

I think if I buy a coin it becomes mine. Most of my coins I buy are for myself or for the family members I cache with. It has special meaning for us and we keep it and we discover it among ourselves which was the case with the Mudnuri coin. When an outsider logs it then it is like an intrusion on our life. When I buy coins to send out I expect them to be logged by people who discover them.

If the person who comes up with the idea or the person paying for the tracking numbers can log a discovery then I would think twice about buying and activating a coin because when I bought and gave the coins it was just for us. It was our memories. It wasn't for an outsider.

But if this person has all the tracking numbers or whatever he used to log them, can he discover the ones that wasn't activated. What happens if he decides to activate some that the owners haven't activated. Can it be undone to make it unactivated again. It brings up a few questions and what ifs we never thought about.

[+LionsLair]

How did he get the tracking numbers? If this is the coin I think it is and it was sold through a vendor who normally buys the tracking numbers, how did the designer (coin envisioner) get these tracking numbers in the first place? Or were these the coins that were given to the designer (AE/XLE, whatever you want to call it)?

 

Not sure how he got the #'s but discovering 118 of the same coin is fishy... many of those coins with 0 miles on them only have his log on them and have never been discovered by others. he only owns 3 of them himself and it seems gifted a few, but most were sold as mentioned from what I gathered.

 

While I don't own one, I'd be a bit upset if this was done to a coin I purchased. I think TPTB should step in and do something about this.

 

just my .02 worth...

[Maine Family]

How did he get the tracking numbers? If this is the coin I think it is and it was sold through a vendor who normally buys the tracking numbers, how did the designer (coin envisioner) get these tracking numbers in the first place? Or were these the coins that were given to the designer (AE/XLE, whatever you want to call it)?

The three I ordered was just regular edition ones, ordered through the store.

[+plumbrokeacres]

I saw this thread earlier today and didn't think much of it I got home and saw that the coin that I haven't made available for discoveries. all of a sudden "Discovered - I made it" back in May I never dealt with the cacher I bought a regular edition coin from a vendor not the cacher.

I have since deleted the the discovery and will continue to do so how did he get the numbers to begin with? When I had my coin made I wasn't given a list of the numbers.......

[+MustangJoni]

I have the tracking numbers of alot of the coins I sold. When I bought the tracking numbers from GS, I was given a database of tracking numbers and their activation codes. So that might be how they got them. When I have done coins through a vendor, I never asked for the tracking codes or the activation codes of my coins, but I'll bet if I was insistent, I could have gotten them.

 

I'm sure the guy just doesn't understand the controversy. I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

I just don't understand how anybody would take time out of their day to do that. I'd rather be caching!

[Jake - Team A.I.]

It could be he is logging them in the similar thought that some people's personal coins they activated but don't adopt out. This is his way of adding an electronic marker to the coin.

 

If that's the case, that should have been stipulated in the website advertising the sale of the coin. Then you would know what to expect once the coin was activated.... that they would be posting a log. If the coin did pass through his hands as part of the sale, its a pretty big stretch, but it wouldn't be a virtual find.

 

I realize that this is not the exact scenario that has taken place... just a jog down a similar ethical train of thought.

[+TxCachePotatoes]

But if this person has all the tracking numbers or whatever he used to log them, can he discover the ones that wasn't activated. What happens if he decides to activate some that the owners haven't activated. Can it be undone to make it unactivated again. It brings up a few questions and what ifs we never thought about.

 

The coin can't be discovered if it is not activated. If they were to activate the coin, it would appear in their account and would be "stolen" from the rightful coin owner.

 

It is clear in my mind that this individual has information that they haven't any right to have. They are NOT the rightful coin owner.

 

It seems that some of the "discoveries" have been purposely backdated. This is likely an attempt to justify the discovery (in the logger's thoughts) as having been so before the coins were sold.

Edited September 7, 2008 by TxCachePotatoes