The OTHER Thanks, But No Thanks! Thread

[+Snoogans]

 

It's funny to me how some people look at opposite sides of the same coin and don't even realise it.

 

On the one hand we have a well known eccentric geocacher downing a gift of a free Premium Membership from a stranger and all the reaction and entertainment there after. (Please at least read the OP of that thread carefully if you are unaware of what's going on there.)

 

On the other had we have another thread that was IMO intended to be positive, yet some folks still can't help but look the gift horse in the mouth essentially saying worse than "Thanks, but no thanks," and actually implying that there needs to be less caches (aka choices) that don't meet their personal criteria to float their subjective boats. (The OP is actually the 2nd post because of a glitch and I don't mean to single this one thread out because it happens whenever opportunity arises to bash perceived lame caches. It just works as an example.)

 

Sorry, but what's the difference here? I can't see it.

 

This post in that other thread sums up my feelings on both issues.

It was a gift. From a stranger. Sort of like a cache. Just appreciate it.

 

Many, heck, I'll be honest, MOST caches don't float my subjective boat on any given day, but they deserve some respect regardless of whether or not I want to hunt them. They deserver to BE THERE regardless of whether or not I will ever decide they are worth my time.

 

WHY?

 

Because someone took the time and gas to hide it, post it, and meet the guidelines, and maintain it which takes more time and gas.

Because someone was interested in participating and they did it correctly because their cache passed review and was published.

 

Don't speculate on their motive. Sheesh, it's a gift. Accept it or don't, but don't disrespect the effort to participate because it doesn't meet your personal criteria. Those of you that do are no better than the OP of that other thread whatever your opinion may be there.

 

You never know who you might be upsetting and for what? That smug superior feeling?

 

I might be a practitioner of the same cache snobbery today if I hadn't seen the effect first hand several years ago...

 

At an event, some cachers were dissing a cache that was hidden in a pocket park as being lame and uninspired. (Mind you, this was back in the good old days and the cache was a regular sized one, just not well hidden and full of "crappy toys.") Well, the cache had been hidden by a 7 year old boy and those were his personal toys that stocked the cache. The boy's Grandfather was within earshot of the conversation, but thankfully the boy wasn't. He rounded and gave the cachers the benefit of his wisdom then scooped up his grandson and departed. I never saw them again and they haven't participated in hiding or finding another cache on that profile. That isn't the only such instance of instant justice at an event that I know of either.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Snoogans

[+Happy Humphrey]

Well said. Great post!

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

Great picture. I thought, perhaps, it would be the other end of the horse!

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

[+Ambrosia]

Well, it was my first instinct in that other thread to say, "Ever heard of the saying: "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth?", but I thought that it wouldn't matter, anyway.

[Mr.Yuck]

Great picture. I thought, perhaps, it would be the other end of the horse!

 

 

Yeah, except it's like the 2,000th time he's posted it to the forums. It got old after the 2nd time.

[+IBcrashen]

Well said Snoogans.

On our state group boards they are now comparing caches place in/under/around pine trees with LP caches. What type next?

[+hairball45]

Yeah, except it's like the 2,000th time he's posted it to the forums. It got old after the 2nd time.

 

ain't old if ya ain't seen it before - made me smile

 

My Mommy taught me many years ago, when given a gift, a compliment, or advise to simply say a sincere "thank you" and go on with my life, whether I liked or used the gift or advise or not. Whether a cache is a "gift" or not is up to (endless) argument but I think the advise Mother gave me still holds. TFTC and move on.

hairball

[Mr.Yuck]

Yeah, except it's like the 2,000th time he's posted it to the forums. It got old after the 2nd time.

 

ain't old if ya ain't seen it before - made me smile

 

 

Oh, I was just messing with Wink. Maybe it's only been 1,500 times. But the Horse's teeth disturb me every time. Can't those be cleaned?

 

 

My Mommy taught me many years ago, when given a gift, a compliment, or advise to simply say a sincere "thank you" and go on with my life, whether I liked or used the gift or advise or not. Whether a cache is a "gift" or not is up to (endless) argument but I think the advise Mother gave me still holds. TFTC and move on.

hairball

 

Yes, I agree with the advice, and I think it applies more towards the "gift membership" thead. Even though that was meant to be a joke (and a darn good one, I might add). But every cache placed is a gift? I'll never be subscribing to that line of thinking.

 

I do see where Snoogans is coming from. But he always seems to be speaking from the standpoint of every cache that was ever lableled as "lame" was placed by a newbie making an effort to contribute to the game, and how dare you label that effort as lame. This of course is not the case. Maybe this interpretation is incorrect, but that's how I perceive it.

 

The story about the seven year old is very unfortunate. The cachers in question should have made a major effort to seek out the father and apologize, even after he stormed off. But I will not be "guilted" into thinking that because I think an adult dropping 100 film canisters into parking lots in a 5 mile radius is lame, that that should be equated with what happened to that child.

Edited September 4, 2008 by TheWhiteUrkel

[+infiniteMPG]

My Mommy taught me many years ago, when given a gift, a compliment, or advise to simply say a sincere "thank you" and go on with my life, whether I liked or used the gift or advise or not. Whether a cache is a "gift" or not is up to (endless) argument but I think the advise Mother gave me still holds. TFTC and move on.

Good advice!!! A good perspective is to remember that most people who give gifts don't do it out of obligation or requirement, they give out of the shear pleasure of giving. People who say "Oh, don't go getting me a present this birthday" don't realize that they are not only depriving themselves of a gift or two, but they are depriving others of the joy of giving, and thse who still go ahead and do it now have a bit of guilt thrown in the mix.

 

I used to drive almost 60 miles (on way) to go to work each day and pass across the Skyway Bridge twice a day which included the 'fun' of paying a $1 toll each time. One day I pulled up to the toll window and the lady said to keep going. I was sitting there with my dollar in hand wondering what she meant so I asked. She said "The person who went thru last paid for the next car, too, and that's you". I was a bit confused as I went thru but it started to sink in. So that afternoon I dropped down $2 at the booth and said to pay for the next person, too. I don't drive that way much anymore but I did that several dozen times just for the shear fun of thinking I was passing along a little random act of kindness and maybe like it did with me, it might spread.

[+TotemLake]

My Mommy taught me many years ago, when given a gift, a compliment, or advise to simply say a sincere "thank you" and go on with my life, whether I liked or used the gift or advise or not. Whether a cache is a "gift" or not is up to (endless) argument but I think the advise Mother gave me still holds. TFTC and move on.

Good advice!!! A good perspective is to remember that most people who give gifts don't do it out of obligation or requirement, they give out of the shear pleasure of giving. People who say "Oh, don't go getting me a present this birthday" don't realize that they are not only depriving themselves of a gift or two, but they are depriving others of the joy of giving, and thse who still go ahead and do it now have a bit of guilt thrown in the mix.

 

I used to drive almost 60 miles (on way) to go to work each day and pass across the Skyway Bridge twice a day which included the 'fun' of paying a $1 toll each time. One day I pulled up to the toll window and the lady said to keep going. I was sitting there with my dollar in hand wondering what she meant so I asked. She said "The person who went thru last paid for the next car, too, and that's you". I was a bit confused as I went thru but it started to sink in. So that afternoon I dropped down $2 at the booth and said to pay for the next person, too. I don't drive that way much anymore but I did that several dozen times just for the shear fun of thinking I was passing along a little random act of kindness and maybe like it did with me, it might spread.

Also known as pay it forward. I like it and practice it all the time.

[+infiniteMPG]

Also known as pay it forward. I like it and practice it all the time.

Feels good to do that and so many people don't realize how such a small act like that can really brighten your day.

 

Was checking some caches a week ago and called in an order to Papa John's, was wanting to try a new pizza they were advertising. Got there early so ran next door to fill up the Jeepster. A couple teen kids in black goth-wear were pushing a small car into the station. I pulled around and while I was pumping, one came and politely asked if I could spare some change as they were heading to a friend's house a block away and ran out of gas. I had $4 beside my 'za money so I gave it to him and told him I enjoyed the show watching them push. They got gas and drove off, all waving and saying thanks to me. I went to get my pizza feeling good helping them out and when I went to get my pizza they messed up the order but quickly remade it leaving off onions which I didn't want (and didn't know came on it) and also refunded me half the cost. So helping the kids out I ended up with more money back and a better pizza.... what goes around comes around.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

. . .But I will not be "guilted" into thinking that because I think an adult dropping 100 film canisters into parking lots in a 5 mile radius is lame, that that should be equated with what happened to that child.

Urk! Double-urk! I am an adult, and I regularly drop 800 film canisters into the weeds and ditches alongside the road within a 6 mile radius, taking drive-by waypoints as I go, and then submit them as microcaches! How else are we gonna saturate the planet's surface with microcaches? And now you come along and write what you did above! sigh.. Am I doing something wrong?

[+Renegade Knight]

...This post in that other thread sums up my feelings on both issues.

It was a gift. From a stranger. Sort of like a cache. Just appreciate it.

...

I always did like Trinity's Crew.

[CoyoteRed]

I might be a practitioner of the same cache snobbery today if I hadn't seen the effect first hand several years ago...

Yeah, I've seen it, too.

 

However, just because a cache gets approved doesn't make it a gift--not in the least. I believe the word "gift" started being used when folks placed cache that were meant only as "gifts of a smilie." As in "Here's a cache that you can find so you can log another smilie." Never mind it has no other entertainment value.

 

Sure, you can look at it as a gift in that someone is creating someone for someone else to enjoy. Is a book a gift? A story? A painting? This forum thread? My post? Just because something is created and presented for others to enjoy doesn't make it a gift. If so, then flickr, YouTube, or any other photo or video hosting site is full of "gifts."

 

Nah, creative works have always been open to critique. Be it a movie, a book, a painting, whatever. Same with caches. You put out a cache, be prepared to be judged.

[Trinity's Crew]

I might be a practitioner of the same cache snobbery today if I hadn't seen the effect first hand several years ago...

Yeah, I've seen it, too.

 

However, just because a cache gets approved doesn't make it a gift--not in the least. I believe the word "gift" started being used when folks placed cache that were meant only as "gifts of a smilie." As in "Here's a cache that you can find so you can log another smilie." Never mind it has no other entertainment value.

 

Sure, you can look at it as a gift in that someone is creating someone for someone else to enjoy. Is a book a gift? A story? A painting? This forum thread? My post? Just because something is created and presented for others to enjoy doesn't make it a gift. If so, then flickr, YouTube, or any other photo or video hosting site is full of "gifts."

 

Nah, creative works have always been open to critique. Be it a movie, a book, a painting, whatever. Same with caches. You put out a cache, be prepared to be judged.

Unlike directors, writers, or artists I haven't seen cachers getting rich off of the caches they place. Quite the opposite, actually. The time, money, and effort is spent for the sole purpose of giving to others. Just my take on it.

[Chumpo]

Forum anger is so pointless, don't you think?

[Trinity's Crew]

Forum anger is so pointless, don't you think?

Who's angry?

 

Actually, the horse looks kind of happy.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Trinity's Crew

[Chumpo]

I was referring to the thread that prompted this one.

[Mr.Yuck]

I might be a practitioner of the same cache snobbery today if I hadn't seen the effect first hand several years ago...

Yeah, I've seen it, too.

 

However, just because a cache gets approved doesn't make it a gift--not in the least. I believe the word "gift" started being used when folks placed cache that were meant only as "gifts of a smilie." As in "Here's a cache that you can find so you can log another smilie." Never mind it has no other entertainment value.

 

Sure, you can look at it as a gift in that someone is creating someone for someone else to enjoy. Is a book a gift? A story? A painting? This forum thread? My post? Just because something is created and presented for others to enjoy doesn't make it a gift. If so, then flickr, YouTube, or any other photo or video hosting site is full of "gifts."

 

Nah, creative works have always been open to critique. Be it a movie, a book, a painting, whatever. Same with caches. You put out a cache, be prepared to be judged.

Unlike directors, writers, or artists I haven't seen cachers getting rich off of the caches they place. Quite the opposite, actually. The time, money, and effort is spent for the sole purpose of giving to others. Just my take on it.

 

OK then, sounds like You Tube. Is every video posted to You Tube a gift to the video viewing public? I think not. Hey, they all meet the You Tube guidelines for being listed, don't they?

 

Not like anyone ever expressed their opinion on a You Tube video, eh?

Edited September 5, 2008 by TheWhiteUrkel

[Trinity's Crew]

I might be a practitioner of the same cache snobbery today if I hadn't seen the effect first hand several years ago...

Yeah, I've seen it, too.

 

However, just because a cache gets approved doesn't make it a gift--not in the least. I believe the word "gift" started being used when folks placed cache that were meant only as "gifts of a smilie." As in "Here's a cache that you can find so you can log another smilie." Never mind it has no other entertainment value.

 

Sure, you can look at it as a gift in that someone is creating someone for someone else to enjoy. Is a book a gift? A story? A painting? This forum thread? My post? Just because something is created and presented for others to enjoy doesn't make it a gift. If so, then flickr, YouTube, or any other photo or video hosting site is full of "gifts."

 

Nah, creative works have always been open to critique. Be it a movie, a book, a painting, whatever. Same with caches. You put out a cache, be prepared to be judged.

Unlike directors, writers, or artists I haven't seen cachers getting rich off of the caches they place. Quite the opposite, actually. The time, money, and effort is spent for the sole purpose of giving to others. Just my take on it.

 

OK then, sounds like You Tube. Is every video posted to You Tube a gift to the video viewing public? I think not. Hey, they all meet the You Tube guidelines for being listed, don't they?

 

Not like anyone ever expressed their opinion on a You Tube video, eh?

Many people have expressed their opinion on You Tube. What does an opinion have to do with the placing of a cache?

 

In addition, a fair number of people have gotten famous or at least gotten monetarily rewarded by posting a video on You Tube. How many cachers have gotten rich (or even have the possibility of getting rich) by placing a cache for us?

[+Snoogans]

Thank you CR. Lots to reply to....

 

I might be a practitioner of the same cache snobbery today if I hadn't seen the effect first hand several years ago...

Yeah, I've seen it, too.

 

However, just because a cache gets approved doesn't make it a gift--not in the least. I believe the word "gift" started being used when folks placed cache that were meant only as "gifts of a smilie." As in "Here's a cache that you can find so you can log another smilie." Never mind it has no other entertainment value.

 

Sure, you can look at it as a gift in that someone is creating someone for someone else to enjoy. Is a book a gift? A story? A painting? This forum thread? My post? Just because something is created and presented for others to enjoy doesn't make it a gift. If so, then flickr, YouTube, or any other photo or video hosting site is full of "gifts."

 

Do you judge a book, story, painting, whatever BEFORE you experience it? Do you then having not enjoyed one of these items then conclude that ALL if that kind of thing are bad and should never have been produced in essence reducing that choice for others if you had your way?

 

Nah, creative works have always been open to critique. Be it a movie, a book, a painting, whatever. Same with caches. You put out a cache, be prepared to be judged.

 

Okay, there's the disconnect from my point of view if you read my OP carefully....

 

I'm not saying geocaching needs to be the Special Olympics and that everyone that participates deserves a medal....

 

What I'm saying is that if you have SPECIFIC critique for a cache, then OWN IT.

 

You experienced a lame cache from your perception and THAT cache alone deserves critique from your first hand viewpoint. If I did that particular cache I might share it.

 

To imply that a cache (or entire genre of caches) you haven't personally found shouldn't have been placed in the first place because it doesn't meet your personal criteria is obtuse. It is NO DIFFERENT than the OP of that other thread dissing someone's "thoughtful" gift of a premium membership.

 

That's all I was pointing out with this thread.

 

I expected dissent. Welcome it in fact. That's why I didn't give any directive questions at the end of the OP.

 

Thanks

Edited September 5, 2008 by Snoogans

[+chuckwagon101]

I want to go on record as saying that I support all types of caches.....with CERTAIN RESERVATIONS:

 

They must contain certain "Key Elements"

 

**A Big Field

 

**A Big Tree

 

**A BIG Pile of Sticks

 

**Lots of Swag for my Grandkids

 

Other than this small requirement, I am very open minded!

[Clan Riffster]

That smug superior feeling?

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

Perhaps this is a three sided coin? I've seen both the sides you've presented, yet there seems to be another:

 

There are those among us who perceive that an uninspired cache has a detrimental effect on the game. If you don't believe that, that's OK, as you're as entitled to your opinion, just as I am. As a member of this group, I feel it is important to do everything in my power to prevent the hiding of uninspired caches, if for no other reason, than to protect the hobby I love the most. One of the, (many), methods I employ is to speak out loudly, and speak out often, against hiding drivel. If this should eventually result in even the tiniest reduction in said drivel, I offer my humble apologies to those hordes who, (judging by the gobs of "TNLNSL" logs), apparently love these types of hides.

 

Perhaps another T-shirt is in order: "I'm OK, You're OK, Film canisters still stink".

[+sbell111]

Yet the hordes that enjoy these types of caches believe them to be fine, enjoyed even. Why is it right for the rancor of some to preclude these people from being able to enjoy these caches? Isn't it a better solution for everyone for those people with your extreme views to simply put in a little bit of effort to avoid those caches that you clearly have such animosity for?

[CoyoteRed]

Do you judge a book, story, painting, whatever BEFORE you experience it? Do you then having not enjoyed one of these items then conclude that ALL if that kind of thing are bad and should never have been produced in essence reducing that choice for others if you had your way?

I've, personally, have always found it hard to quantify just what I consider trache with the tools Jeremy et al have given us. I know a lot of folks rag on micros, but I've been careful to not say all micros are trache. I don't say PnGs are trache. Team360 gave us a brilliant example of a wonderful PnG, and guardrail micro to boot.

 

Speaking only for myself, I guess trache is kind of like pornography: hard to describe, but know it when I see it.

 

To imply that a cache (or entire genre of caches) you haven't personally found shouldn't have been placed in the first place because it doesn't meet your personal criteria is obtuse. It is NO DIFFERENT than the OP of that other thread dissing someone's "thoughtful" gift of a premium membership.

 

That's all I was pointing out with this thread.

 

Well, in your OP you linked to this post.

the bar doesn't need raising.

 

the number of caches that don't clear it needs lowering.

Well said!

I thought you were commenting on this and caches being "gifts" is general. Sorry, if I saw that and made the wrong conclusions about the direction of your post.

 

Look, folks are going to bitch about something, that a given. You plop them down in utopia and they'll still find something to complain about. Personally, I wouldn't care for a hobby that is nothing but 10 mile, 10,000 elevation gain hikes. One way. In the snow. Bare foot.

 

Ahem, sorry.

 

Nor would I like on that is nothing but PnGs. Sure, we need a variety of different styles.

 

However, in the post to which you linked I saw nothing about a genre of caches, but I read it as more of a comment about the quality of caches. I could very well be wrong, but I read it as a comment on the number of caches that fall below par. Substandard caches are just that regardless of genre.

 

We can do something about sub-par caches. In another thread some brought up that some folks will rail against a certain type of cache they consider lame, yet then attempt to be FTF and thank the owner for placing it. I've never understood this mentality. Those who do this are giving the owner mixed signals. Me, if I go find a cache I think I might not like just to check it out I most likely won't log it, much less thank the person for putting it out. I guess folks simply have to have their smilie or get it off their nearest cache list, and don't want to be rude in the log. Not that that is a bad thing, but certainly isn't honest feedback.

 

Speaking of honest feedback, the way things are set up here discourages honest feedback. There is no anonymous ratings and cache owners can delete a log on a whim. I'm sure there are a lot of folks on other sites with sub-par products that wish they could delete negative less than favorable comments.

 

Lastly, I don't know what was going on with that other thread, but my impression was someone was proud of being a non-PM, someone bought them a membership, and the recipient took it as an insult. A gift can be just as back-handed as can a compliment.

[Clan Riffster]

Yet the hordes that enjoy these types of caches believe them to be fine, enjoyed even.

Yup. The gobs of "TNLNSL" logs prove they had a blast.

Why is it right for the rancor of some to preclude these people from being able to enjoy these caches?

Have I ever, (even once), suggested they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy them? Just because I think a non-waterproof container, haphazardly tossed into generic shrubbery at an uninspired location is lame, doesn't mean I'm looking to recruit any one. Heck, judging from the folks who jump on board every anti-lame thread that pops up, it seems like there's no need for recruitment. If you think lame caches stink, great! If you think lame caches are the greatest thing since sliced bread, great! If you don't care either way, great! Ain't it great to be able to have an opinion, and express it? <insert chorus of Kum-By-Yah here>

 

Isn't it a better solution for everyone for those people with your extreme views to simply put in a little bit of effort to avoid those caches that you clearly have such animosity for?

Two issues here:

1 ) You claim my view is extreme. I would disagree with your assessment. My thoughts are, since my views are shared by so many, they can hardly be called extreme. Unless, of course, your sole intention when applying that particular insult was to simply minimize my belief system, in which case nothing I could say at this point would have any effect on your argument.

2 ) I happen to love this hobby. Perhaps you do as well? When I see something I love being threatened, it is my tendency to take action, not just sit on my hands. How you deal with something valuable to you being threatened is entirely up to you. If you don't perceive the same threat as I do, that's OK. You are entitled to your opinion.

 

By ignoring the glut of lameness that has permeated geocaching, the virus spreads. I perceive this to be a bad thing.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Yet the hordes that enjoy these types of caches believe them to be fine, enjoyed even.

Yup. The gobs of "TNLNSL" logs prove they had a blast.

Why is it right for the rancor of some to preclude these people from being able to enjoy these caches?

Have I ever, (even once), suggested they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy them? Just because I think a non-waterproof container, haphazardly tossed into generic shrubbery at an uninspired location is lame, doesn't mean I'm looking to recruit any one. Heck, judging from the folks who jump on board every anti-lame thread that pops up, it seems like there's no need for recruitment. If you think lame caches stink, great! If you think lame caches are the greatest thing since sliced bread, great! If you don't care either way, great! Ain't it great to be able to have an opinion, and express it? <insert chorus of Kum-By-Yah here>

 

Isn't it a better solution for everyone for those people with your extreme views to simply put in a little bit of effort to avoid those caches that you clearly have such animosity for?

Two issues here:

1 ) You claim my view is extreme. I would disagree with your assessment. My thoughts are, since my views are shared by so many, they can hardly be called extreme. Unless, of course, your sole intention when applying that particular insult was to simply minimize my belief system, in which case nothing I could say at this point would have any effect on your argument.

2 ) I happen to love this hobby. Perhaps you do as well? When I see something I love being threatened, it is my tendency to take action, not just sit on my hands. How you deal with something valuable to you being threatened is entirely up to you. If you don't perceive the same threat as I do, that's OK. You are entitled to your opinion.

 

By ignoring the glut of lameness that has permeated geocaching, the virus spreads. I perceive this to be a bad thing.

Clan Riffster, I just want to chime in here, as a relatively independent observer, and note that I do not believe that your position is at all extreme, but rather quite sane and middle-of-the-road, and I was very surprised to find that someone had tried to label it as extreme -- talk about spin doctors! Extreme, in this case, would be the cachers who brag that they CITO every lame cache that they encounter, or who hold bonfire events where every LUM collected by attendees from within a 40 mile radius will be burned, a la Burning Man, or who form vigilante squads and publicly execute the more notorious and prolific hiders of LUMs.

[+sbell111]

Yet the hordes that enjoy these types of caches believe them to be fine, enjoyed even.

Yup. The gobs of "TNLNSL" logs prove they had a blast.

Why is it right for the rancor of some to preclude these people from being able to enjoy these caches?

Have I ever, (even once), suggested they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy them?

Ummm, you kinda did in the post just before mine. Take a look right up there.

Isn't it a better solution for everyone for those people with your extreme views to simply put in a little bit of effort to avoid those caches that you clearly have such animosity for?

Two issues here:

1 ) You claim my view is extreme. I would disagree with your assessment. My thoughts are, since my views are shared by so many, they can hardly be called extreme. Unless, of course, your sole intention when applying that particular insult was to simply minimize my belief system, in which case nothing I could say at this point would have any effect on your argument.

The view that certain caches which are enjoyed by others and meet the guidelines should not exist simply because you don't like them is extreme, whether or not other people agree with you.

2 ) I happen to love this hobby. Perhaps you do as well? When I see something I love being threatened, it is my tendency to take action, not just sit on my hands. How you deal with something valuable to you being threatened is entirely up to you. If you don't perceive the same threat as I do, that's OK. You are entitled to your opinion.

 

By ignoring the glut of lameness that has permeated geocaching, the virus spreads. I perceive this to be a bad thing.

The thing that I see as being detrimental to the game is when malcontents try to alter the game to their whim, rather than allow others to enjoy their guidelines-meeting caches. Perhaps the difference between the two of us is that I enjoy the game as it is and you enjoy it as you wish it would be. I allow for the fact that different people like different things within the game and alter my play to maximize my fun while you wish to alter the game to fit you desires, in my opinion. Edited September 6, 2008 by sbell111

[+Guinness70]

-//- I feel it is important to do everything in my power to prevent the hiding of uninspired caches, if for no other reason, than to protect the hobby I love the most. One of the, (many), methods I employ is to speak out loudly, and speak out often, against hiding drivel.-//-

keeping in mind that the drivel prevents the hiding of an enjoyable cache in that zone.

 

my latest multi is a 9km trail in a park. first i intended on doing a power trail of traditionals coz that would attract lots of people. but then figured, I cache for the experience not for numbers, so im going to cater for kindred spirits. plus now others can hide more caches in that park, im not hogging the entire area.

 

this discussion boils down to the same thing everytime :

if the number cacher gets his/her kicks from LPCs, he/she is happy.

if the hiking cacher gets his/her kicks from the 20km hike, he/she is happy.

 

everybody is happy, so why care?

the only problem (for those that like "experience" cache) is when a numbers caches prevents the hide of an experience cache or interferes with a multi.

i had this explained to me when i just got started and wanted to hide a park&grab. Havent hid one of those yet and now i can appreciate why I shouldnt.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Guinness70

[+thedeadpirate]

RSPS

[Clan Riffster]

Ummm, you kinda did in the post just before mine.

Ummm... Could you kinda show me where I suggested these caches should not exist? I looked at the indicated post, and all I saw was some ol' fat guy with a smelly hat, (me!), expressing his distaste toward a certain lame segment of geocaching society. Nothing in there even so much as implied that ultra carpy hides shouldn't exist. Perhaps this is you simply being so desperate for an argument, (any argument), that you're willing to twist what one person says into something entirely different, just so you can rail against it? If that's the case, then please let me know, so I can stop trying to debate you.

 

The view that certain caches which are enjoyed by others and meet the guidelines should not exist simply because you don't like them is extreme

Ahhh... I see where you went astray. You are assuming that this is my view, even though I never expressed it or even implied it. I see. Well, just for clarification, (I thought I made it clear before, but here goes), my view is that lame caches are detrimental to the game. Not that they shouldn't exist. Let's not confuse the two. If my view were to spread to 100% of the caching population, and suddenly all lame caches were either improved above the level of lameness or simply went away, I'd be OK with that, as I promote quality over quantity, however this is not a call for action against those existing stinkers. As you can see, this position is not at all extreme.

 

(Just in case you're not familiar with the definition of extreme)

From Dictionary .com:

Extreme

1. of a character or kind farthest removed from the ordinary or average: extreme measures.

2. utmost or exceedingly great in degree: extreme joy.

3. farthest from the center or middle; outermost; endmost: the extreme limits of a town.

4. farthest, utmost, or very far in any direction: an object at the extreme point of vision.

5. exceeding the bounds of moderation: extreme fashions.

6. going to the utmost or very great lengths in action, habit, opinion, etc.: an extreme conservative.

7. last or final: extreme hopes.

8. Chiefly Sports. extremely dangerous or difficult: extreme skiing.

 

The thing that I see as being detrimental to the game is when malcontents try to alter the game to their whim

Another, (probably deliberate), misperception. I am not a malcontent. I realize it's important for you to apply negative labels to me in your desperate bid to twist my position into something you can argue about, but I'd appreciate it greatly, (if it's not too hard for you), if you'd at least make some attempt at accuracy in your insults. For instance, you could call me fat. I am pretty hefty. That way you could add a bit of sting to your remarks, without losing what little credibility you might have. Thanx!

 

Perhaps the difference between the two of us is that I enjoy the game as it is and you enjoy it as you wish it would be.

I thought I made it clear in my earlier post. Perhaps you didn't read that one, either? Or is this another twist? It's kinda hard to tell sometimes. Just in case you somehow missed it before, I'll reiterate my feelings about this little game: I love it! I think it's the best hobby ever! It's supercalifragilisticexpialidocious! Stupendous, even! Would the overall game be improved if lame caches were improved? I happen to believe it would. If you do not believe that, that's OK. It's a big world with room for more than one opinion.

[CoyoteRed]

I know where lame caches shouldn't exist!

 

On my radar.

 

Kind of like micros further from 80 miles from home don't exist on my radar, but I don't have a filter for "lame." Wish I did so I wouldn't have to give up decent caches, but something had to give.

 

The best I can do is let folks know my stance, they can take it or leave it. Hopefully, they'll take my views into consideration and place a "less than lame" cache.

[+sbell111]

keeping in mind that the drivel prevents the hiding of an enjoyable cache in that zone.

First come, first served.

my latest multi is a 9km trail in a park. first i intended on doing a power trail of traditionals coz that would attract lots of people. but then figured, I cache for the experience not for numbers, so im going to cater for kindred spirits. plus now others can hide more caches in that park, im not hogging the entire area.

Also, power trails violate the guidelines.

Ummm, you kinda did in the post just before mine.

Ummm... Could you kinda show me where I suggested these caches should not exist? I looked at the indicated post, and all I saw was some ol' fat guy with a smelly hat, (me!), expressing his distaste toward a certain lame segment of geocaching society. Nothing in there even so much as implied that ultra carpy hides shouldn't exist.

My mistake. I took your posting your belief that these caches were detrimental to the hobby and that you would do everything in your power to prevent their being hidden to suggest that they shouldn't exist. Actually, when I type it out like that it still kinda seems like you don't want them to exist.

 

BTW, could you please explain why you believe that they are detrimental to the game. I was especially surprised that you posted this given the fact that you have been on record as using a fairly simply method to avoid the bulk of the caches that you believe are lame.

I know where lame caches shouldn't exist!

 

On my radar.

 

Kind of like micros further from 80 miles from home don't exist on my radar, but I don't have a filter for "lame." Wish I did so I wouldn't have to give up decent caches, but something had to give.

 

The best I can do is let folks know my stance, they can take it or leave it. Hopefully, they'll take my views into consideration and place a "less than lame" cache.

Many people feel exactly the same way. Clan Riffster has previously posted a variation of the easy peasey method that works for him to do exactly what you request. If I have time in a little bit, I'll try to remember to do a search and turn it up for you. Hopefully, it will help you. Edited September 8, 2008 by sbell111

[Trinity's Crew]

I know what lame is. Coyote Red knows what lame is. Clan Riffster knows what lame is. I'd bet that Sbell111 even knows what lame is. The problem is that none of us could possibly agree on what that means universally. That's where the "I wish lame caches would go away" argument falls apart.

 

I still believe that many cachers who rail against ANY cache that doesn't amuse/entertain/tickle THEM are a little burned out.

 

A few years ago TeamGPSaxaphone asked whether some cachers were turning up their noses at average or slightly better than average caches because they had "Been there. Done that." I'm paraphrasing but I think it was a valid question.

[+flask]

there's no such thing as altruism.

 

people hide caches because THEY get enjoyment out of it.

 

i fail to understand why they would enjoy having me stop my car at a poison ivy infested guardrail with no view except of somebody's household trash to grab yet another magnetic key holder, but apparently it pleases them to do so.

 

i don't consider it a gift to me or to anyone else. if anything, the one being gifted is the cache owner, who gets the satisfaction of knowing they've brought yet another person to this unique and special place.

 

you can argue all you want that every cache is a gift, but i'll have to ask: to whom?

[Trinity's Crew]

there's no such thing as altruism.

 

people hide caches because THEY get enjoyment out of it.

 

i fail to understand why they would enjoy having me stop my car at a poison ivy infested guardrail with no view except of somebody's household trash to grab yet another magnetic key holder, but apparently it pleases them to do so.

 

i don't consider it a gift to me or to anyone else. if anything, the one being gifted is the cache owner, who gets the satisfaction of knowing they've brought yet another person to this unique and special place.

 

you can argue all you want that every cache is a gift, but i'll have to ask: to whom?

Do you really believe there is no such thing as altruism? Or are you framing that in the context of hiding caches?

[Trinity's Crew]

Either way, I disagree. I haven't hidden my caches for me. I hid them for others to enjoy.

[+KBI]

I might be a practitioner of the same cache snobbery today if I hadn't seen the effect first hand several years ago...

I believe the word "gift" started being used when folks placed cache that were meant only as "gifts of a smilie." As in "Here's a cache that you can find so you can log another smilie." Never mind it has no other entertainment value.

Who are you to judge how much entertainment value it has to anyone else?

 

Who are you to judge how much entertainment value is enough for a fellow cacher?

 

Nah, creative works have always been open to critique. Be it a movie, a book, a painting, whatever. Same with caches. You put out a cache, be prepared to be judged.

Just because you scoff at, ridicule and snub the gift doesn’t mean it’s not a gift.

[Trinity's Crew]

 

i fail to understand why they would enjoy having me stop my car at a poison ivy infested guardrail with no view except of somebody's household trash to grab yet another magnetic key holder, but apparently it pleases them to do so.

 

i don't consider it a gift to me or to anyone else. if anything, the one being gifted is the cache owner, who gets the satisfaction of knowing they've brought yet another person to this unique and special place.

 

you can argue all you want that every cache is a gift, but i'll have to ask: to whom?

 

Can you PM me with a link to that cache?

[+KBI]

That smug superior feeling?

You say that like it's a bad thing.

 

Perhaps this is a three sided coin? I've seen both the sides you've presented, yet there seems to be another:

 

There are those among us who perceive that an uninspired cache has a detrimental effect on the game. If you don't believe that, that's OK, as you're as entitled to your opinion, just as I am. As a member of this group, I feel it is important to do everything in my power to prevent the hiding of uninspired caches, if for no other reason, than to protect the hobby I love the most. One of the, (many), methods I employ is to speak out loudly, and speak out often, against hiding drivel. If this should eventually result in even the tiniest reduction in said drivel, I offer my humble apologies to those hordes who, (judging by the gobs of "TNLNSL" logs), apparently love these types of hides.

So you believe the entire hobby should be modified, systemwide, in order to comply with your personal preferences. So you say screw the people whose tastes differ from yours.

 

I’ve got a question:

 

There are some who think that ALL geocaching is lame pointless silly stupid drivel. These people exist. I've met a couple of them. It's a sad thing to see, but it's a fact.

 

Suppose one, or some, of those pitiable muggles someday succeed in eliminating ALL geocaching ... and they do it in the very same way that you hope to reduce the number of caches YOU don’t happen to like. Suppose they follow their worldwide cleansing by offering their humblest apologies to you.

 

My question: Would you be satisfied with their apology?

Edited September 8, 2008 by KBI

[+KBI]

Why is it right for the rancor of some to preclude these people from being able to enjoy these caches?

Have I ever, (even once), suggested they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy them?

No, you didn't -- but this guy did:

 

There are those among us who perceive that an uninspired cache has a detrimental effect on the game. ... As a member of this group, I feel it is important to do everything in my power to prevent the hiding of uninspired caches ...

[+KBI]

I happen to love this hobby. Perhaps you do as well? When I see something I love being threatened, it is my tendency to take action, not just sit on my hands. How you deal with something valuable to you being threatened is entirely up to you. If you don't perceive the same threat as I do, that's OK. You are entitled to your opinion.

I love good, quality hamburgers too, but that doesn’t compel me to take up arms against McDonalds for the crime of selling nothing but gut grenades.

 

I can, and do, enjoy the really good burgers without campaigning against the crap that other people happen to enjoy. If other folks enjoy McDonalds – and all evidence indicates a LOT of people do – then I’m happy for them. Just don’t look for ME there.

 

Honestly, I don’t see how you can claim to "love this hobby" while simultaneously trying to limit the fun of your fellow hobbyists by lobbying against the existence of the hobby’s more popular elements.

[Mushtang]

I happen to love this hobby. Perhaps you do as well? When I see something I love being threatened, it is my tendency to take action, not just sit on my hands. How you deal with something valuable to you being threatened is entirely up to you. If you don't perceive the same threat as I do, that's OK. You are entitled to your opinion.

I love good, quality hamburgers too, but that doesn’t compel me to take up arms against McDonalds for the crime of selling nothing but gut grenades.

 

I can, and do, enjoy the really good burgers without campaigning against the crap that other people happen to enjoy. If other folks enjoy McDonalds – and all evidence indicates a LOT of people do – then I’m happy for them. Just don’t look for ME there.

 

Honestly, I don’t see how you can claim to "love this hobby" while simultaneously trying to limit the fun of your fellow hobbyists by lobbying against the existence of the hobby’s more popular elements.

Unlike you I don't mind McDonalds, and can even enjoy it. When I'm hungry for a burger and there's not a high quality burger serving restaurant around (or I don't have time to get one, or I don't have a lot of cash in my pocket that day, or many other factors) I'll grab a McDonalds burger and be grateful for it.

 

When this happens I sure am glad someone who feels McDonalds only serves lame food hasn't done everything in their power to prevent the building of that particular McDonalds, and succeeded. If their speaking out had resulted in that restaurant not being built, and instead of a burger the only thing I had to eat was their humblest apologies, I guess I'd go hungry that day.

 

On a completely unrelated note... when I've only got a few minutes to cache in between errands (which happens WAY more often than me getting several free hours to go), or I'm out of town on a business trip without the luxury of a rental car, or any one of the many situations where the only choice I have is an LPC or some other park and grab, I'm VERY grateful for that gift. If I'm sitting in a hotel somewhere with no car to use which would increase the number of cache options, and the only cache within walking distance is a micro on a guard rail, I'm VERY grateful for that gift. This has happened more times than I can count.

 

When this happens I sure am glad someone who feels micros on guardrails are lame hasn't done everything in their power to prevent that particular cache from being placed, and succeeded. If their speaking out had resulted in that cache not being placed, and instead of a cache the only thing I had to find was their humblest apologies, I guess I'd just sit in the room and watch more television.

[Clan Riffster]

Where to begin.... (sigh)

 

So you believe the entire hobby should be modified

Nope.

 

No, you didn't -- but this guy did:

I assume there's a point to this inaccurate comparison.... somewhere?

 

Honestly, I don’t see how you can claim to "love this hobby" while simultaneously trying to limit the fun of your fellow hobbyists

Whose fun have I limited again? Could you show me the specific person?

 

Thanx!

[+sbell111]

... you can argue all you want that every cache is a gift, but i'll have to ask: to whom?

The community at large. I'm sure that there are many people who believe that a kayak cache is a gift. However, I'm not a huge fan of those caches. One day, I might find them, but until then, I'm happy having them sit on my ignore list. Just because those caches are not my cup of tea does not mean that they were not offered to the community as a gift. It certainly doesn't give me the obligation to rail against them.

... There are some who think that ALL geocaching is lame pointless silly stupid drivel. These people exist. I've met a couple of them. It's a sad thing to see, but it's a fact. ...

Met them? I married one.

[+sbell111]

Where to begin.... (sigh)

So you believe the entire hobby should be modified

Nope.

No, you didn't -- but this guy did:

I assume there's a point to this inaccurate comparison.... somewhere?

Honestly, I don’t see how you can claim to "love this hobby" while simultaneously trying to limit the fun of your fellow hobbyists

Whose fun have I limited again? Could you show me the specific person?

 

Thanx!

I think that you missed the point of my previous post and KBI's.

 

If you succeed in limiting the hiding of caches that you don't like, you will, therefore, limit the fun of those cachers who would have enjoyed finding those caches.

 

For instance, many of you people who rail about 'uninspired' caches like to point to LPMs as the poster child. Well, not so long ago, I was running an errand and had very limited time. It just so happened that there was an LPM in the parking lot of the store that I needed to go to. I found it and it brightened my day. If people like you had their way, the cache owner would have been prevented from hiding this cache and my fun would have been limited.

Edited September 8, 2008 by sbell111

[+KBI]

Honestly, I don’t see how you can claim to "love this hobby" while simultaneously trying to limit the fun of your fellow hobbyists

Whose fun have I limited again? Could you show me the specific person?

 

Thanx!

Sure, no problem.

 

Here is the quote:

 

There are those among us who perceive that an uninspired cache has a detrimental effect on the game. ... As a member of this group, I feel it is important to do everything in my power to prevent the hiding of uninspired caches ...

That statement is neither vague nor ambiguous.

 

Whose fun will you have limited? Clearly you will have limited the fun of anyone who might have enjoyed the caches you will have eliminated should you ever succeed in your personal campaign to "do everything in your power to prevent the hiding of" whatever caches you don’t happen to personally enjoy.

 

So, unless you really meant to say: "every guideline-compliant hide has the same right to exist as every other guideline-compliant hide because one man’s trash is another man’s treasure" when you wrote: "I feel it is important to do everything in my power to prevent the hiding of" [the caches that don’t adequately entertain Clan Riffster], then I don’t think I have misinterpreted you.

 

If you ever manage to eliminate from existence a hide that I might have enjoyed, I will resent you for it -- and your promised apology won't make up for it either.

 

By the way, and speaking of apologies, you didn’t answer the question at the end of this post.

[CoyoteRed]

Even if all uninspired caches that were eliminated there still are things you can look for with your GPS. The most obvious is probably Waymarks, but there's no easy way to get data into your GPS so you can go find something.

 

This has been around for a long time. There is a much higher density of benchmarks in most areas than there are geocaches. A tutorial and the tools have been around for a while, too. There's really no excuse if you're looking for just any ol' something to use your GPS to find.

[Mushtang]

Even if all uninspired caches that were eliminated there still are things you can look for with your GPS. The most obvious is probably Waymarks, but there's no easy way to get data into your GPS so you can go find something.

 

This has been around for a long time. There is a much higher density of benchmarks in most areas than there are geocaches. A tutorial and the tools have been around for a while, too. There's really no excuse if you're looking for just any ol' something to use your GPS to find.

For that matter you can just take your current coordinates, make a few random changes to the numbers to come up with a waypoint that's not too far away, and go try to find where the new waypoint is.

 

But for those of us that want to go geocaching instead of either Waymarking, benchmarking, or randomcoordinatemarking, we'd still prefer a guardrail cache to nothing.

[+KBI]

Even if all uninspired caches that were eliminated there still are things you can look for with your GPS. The most obvious is probably Waymarks, but there's no easy way to get data into your GPS so you can go find something.

 

This has been around for a long time. There is a much higher density of benchmarks in most areas than there are geocaches. A tutorial and the tools have been around for a while, too. There's really no excuse if you're looking for just any ol' something to use your GPS to find.

So the pathetic and naive fun-havers who are merely looking for just any ol' something to use their GPS to find are ruining your fun? So those who are merely looking for just any ol' something to use their GPS to find are in the wrong place, and are getting in your way?

 

Sorry, but I don’t sympathize.

 

There is also "no excuse" for demanding to be consistently entertained by a minimum-acceptable-to-CoyoteRed level of creativity, in a hobby you know to be 100% powered by amateur volunteers, and then whining about it when you haven’t been consistently entertained to your minimum-acceptable level by each and every one of those free gifts created by those amateur volunteers.

 

As someone pointed out recently, and as you certainly know, this hobby is open to everyone. If your entertainment standards are so high that they cannot be satisfied when there is even a risk you will encounter efforts left out for you, for free, by unpaid amateurs who have not been properly trained in how correctly to please CoyoteRed, then I say it is YOU who is in the wrong place.

Edited September 8, 2008 by KBI