GPS Map Challenge...

[Grasscatcher]

There are trade offs to everything.....

I have . NG TOPO, Mapsource, Expert GPS, Arcview, Trackmaker, USAPhotomaps,....plus 20+ different data format conversion software titles and use them all at different times.

In one software, I can zoom in and edit tracklogs overlayed on aerial photos and edit the detail down to individual trackpoints. If you want to fully see every switchback and every minor detail, like when you went over to the side of the trail to rest on a rock...you can do it. When you zoom back out to a reasonable map scale and want to talk about a smooth trail??? it's like unto a baby's bottom!

I even have an old version of Delorme SA(for use with APRS) For a number of years, I've considered anything with Delorme's name on it to be total "Mickey Mouse". Delorme, as a company, has a history of developing a product and then telling the user that it what it is that they need, instead of listening to the user and developing a product accordingly. Some of what I've seen as far as examples of data overlayed onto Delorme maps as recent as TOPO USA 7 is almost cartoonish in quality.

Here's the kicker.......as far as GPS, I'm 110% Garmin....maybe even 125%, HOWEVER I'm seriously considering getting a Delorme PN-40 when they come out, and yes, TOPO 7, and XMap6 also.....Why? Because right now Delorme seems to be the ONLY ones listening, and developing accordingly. BIG CHANGE !!

The real test is going to be equipment /data compatibility with other softwares. Delorme has historically been almost paranoid along those lines, refusing to provide necessary data to third party software developers.

No ONE software (or GPS, or....) does EVERYTHING best.

[+RRLover]

I've "been around the block" so to speak, started backpacking when REI was a true co-op

and a one man show in Seattle only. In my teens in the '70s, we did orienteering, trail hiking,

bushwhackin', skinnydipped there, slid down this, fell over that. One thing I learned real fast;

if the little squigglies (contour lines) get real close together, expect switchbacks, even if the

(paper only back then) map shows a straight line. Just one 'Batan Death March' and recognizing

those subtle hints becomes second nature. As embra stated : "experience". Electric gizmos

can enhance the experience, but you are still required to pay attention, or die! just like the rest

of life.

 

Norm

[+Ratsneve]

Thanks. I think I'll get over this. Looks like I can have some fun with an Oregon for a while instead of the now dead Colorado--even though there might be a possible fix. Then at some point soon the PN-40 will be out and I can decide to sell the Oregon or not. I'm posting a few shots here where I turned the shading off. This was before the Colorado kicked the bucket. You should be able to recognize the places and see the differences.

 

Smith Rock

 

 

Silver Falls

 

 

Snow Lake

 

 

 

Although, once again, these shots are larger then the actual Colorado/Oregon screens, the lack of shading--shading turned off--makes matters worse in these pictures and looking at the actual GPSr screen. Shading helps define the trails much better but I'm sure there will be pros and cons to this since shading really does darken areas.

 

I'll be switching to the Oregon hopefully in around 10 days or so. I think I read that through MapSource you can change track colors. If this is true maybe one can once they track a trail can show that trail--track in the future in a more contrasty light?

 

BTW, I don't exactly like the way the contour labels are displayed. I wish they were smaller and brown and black to match the contour line colors with no contrasty outline. I think the label size can be adjusted some but that will have to wait for another time.

Edited August 26, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Redwoods Mtn Biker]

I'll be switching to the Oregon hopefully in around 10 days or so. I think I read that through MapSource you can change track colors. If this is true maybe one can once they track a trail can show that trail--track in the future in a more contrasty light?

 

Yes, you can change track colors on the Oregon. You can do it in MapSource too, but the colors revert to the default when you transfer it to a GPSr.

[+Ratsneve]

I'll be switching to the Oregon hopefully in around 10 days or so. I think I read that through MapSource you can change track colors. If this is true maybe one can once they track a trail can show that trail--track in the future in a more contrasty light?

 

Yes, you can change track colors on the Oregon. You can do it in MapSource too, but the colors revert to the default when you transfer it to a GPSr.

A big fat smile for telling me that. Oh, well. There is always the hope that a Garmin executive will read this and ask some MapSource employees some questions.

[+embra]

Although, once again, these shots are larger then the actual Colorado/Oregon screens...

 

<snip>

 

BTW, I don't exactly like the way the contour labels are displayed. I wish they were smaller and brown and black to match the contour line colors with no contrasty outline. I think the label size can be adjusted some but that will have to wait for another time.

The PN-20 screens are "over-represented" here, too, due to the same phenomenon.

 

I do have to say the Colorado shots are rather elegant with the shading. Thanks for posting them.

 

Is it the case that nearly all the groundcover is depicted in green--i.e., is it supposed to represent forest cover? I note that the T7 map data seems to show much of the land around Smith's Rock to be bare desert or something non-forested.

 

I find the contour labels a little distracting, too. Reducing size would help, but it would be nice if they could just do every 5th line or so. It ends up being a little busy IMO.

[+Ratsneve]

Is it the case that nearly all the groundcover is depicted in green--i.e., is it supposed to represent forest cover? I note that the T7 map data seems to show much of the land around Smith's Rock to be bare desert or something non-forested.

It is state park area we see in green. If I zoomed out you would see lots more of desert-brown color/shading. When I get my Oregon I can post a few more varieties of topo and city street terrain. I'd like to see some more Topo7 pictures too. By any chance can anyone access Topo7 on Delorme's site to look through it? It would not be possible to download or load or capture of course?

I find the contour labels a little distracting, too. Reducing size would help, but it would be nice if they could just do every 5th line or so. It ends up being a little busy IMO.

Yes...agree. Elevations every fifth (darker) line would be adeqate. Some of the T7 shots don't show contour elevations and other shots do? I'll accept Delorme averaging the switchbacks out of a trail is liveable but when they aren't accurate up on a ridge line instead of down on the saddle I think that is stretching it a little.

[+Ratsneve]

This thread has been very informative for me. I think it has run its course here and now. I remain impressed with the PN-20 and especially the DeLorme company and its support; and disappointed in the Colorado (especially now after the recent 'System Software Missing'--Garmin's 'blue-screen-of-death' equivalent) and the Garmin company.

 

Since I have already made my $600 plus investment in the Colorado, which will turn into an Oregon in a week or so, and its City Navigator 2008 DVD plus 2009 Update and Topo U.S. 24K Northwest MicroSD maps I don't feel in any rush to buy a PN-40 asap. I am a casual user who has enjoyed the new features and functions that have worked on the Colorado geocaching and auto-routing to various waypoints. If I move to the PN-40 the only thing I will miss is the Oregon's larger screen size. Given the choice I doubt I would ever buy another Garmin product because of their poor technical support, engineering, software, and management oversight.

 

If Garmin would like to contact me for further details I have registered their products--they can learn how to use that contact information--I won't be writing any of them directly.

 

Thank you for the mapping examples and insght we have shared together here.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Ratsneve]

I looked through all the pictures again and realized I would have liked to revist the locations with the Colorado to set different levels of detail, note how the contour intervals change relative to zoom level, try different label sizes, and actually hike some of Smith Rock to add my own section of trail to the map, even if I have to accept a default color. I'll continue this when I get the Oregon.

 

As I mentioned, I was a little disappointed in the trail detail Topo7 offers for Snow Lake and none at Smith Rock. Would a PN-20 user who has access to the USGS 7.5 minute series maps that DeLorme offers like to see if this trail detail is any different at Snow Lake and present at all at Smith Rock?

 

Thanks.

Edited August 28, 2008 by Ratsneve

[SiliconFiend]

I looked through all the pictures again and realized I would have liked to revist the locations with the Colorado to set different levels of detail, note how the contour intervals change relative to zoom level, try different label sizes, and actually hike some of Smith Rock to add my own section of trail to the map, even if I have to accept a default color. I'll continue this when I get the Oregon.

 

As I mentioned, I was a little disappointed in the trail detail Topo7 offers for Snow Lake and none at Smith Rock. Would a PN-20 user who has access to the USGS 7.5 minute series maps that DeLorme offers like to see if this trail detail is any different at Snow Lake and present at all at Smith Rock?

 

Thanks.

Since you're in Oregon you may be interested in the Northwest Trails Project for Garmins. Not sure if Smith Rock (my wife--who grew up in Bend--calls it Monkey Rock) is covered yet, but if not, you could contribute your tracks to improve the project. Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention OpenStreetMap, which I doubt has maps of Smith Rock, but is a great resource for do-it-yourself mappers (there are tools to create Garmin maps from OSM data).

[MtnHermit]

Um... What is the map source for your PN-20 shots? And I notice that the top picture says mapsource in the lower left but this isn't at all related to Garmin's MapSource is it. Remember you are dealing with a newbie who bought a Colorado and hasn't learned what she can really do with it yet--if anything. ...but I'll post Colorado shots soon all the same.

Your behind in your reading, see here, must have been out playing all day.

No...well...probably. But if I can make it confusing for me I will make it so.

Now that I'm back from my multi-day backpack and have read/re-read most of the posts . . . whew!!!

 

I believe it has never clicked with you that all of the screenshots I posted were using Above the Timber's maps, NOT Garmin maps. You can download a trial version of these same maps and demo them on your CO/OR today. Just use the provided link. I'd be curious how those maps look on a CO/OR.

 

In another posts, you mentioned how you'd already spent $600 on hardware and software and that was quite enough, I heartily agree.

[MtnHermit]

Is it the case that nearly all the groundcover is depicted in green--i.e., is it supposed to represent forest cover? I note that the T7 map data seems to show much of the land around Smith's Rock to be bare desert or something non-forested.

 

I find the contour labels a little distracting, too. Reducing size would help, but it would be nice if they could just do every 5th line or so. It ends up being a little busy IMO.

I believe that T7 is fundamentally different from both Garmin's and Above the Timber's maps. As I look at the T7 maps, the green represents forest vegetation, ie trees. Whereas in the other maps green represents forests and parks. Above the Timber breaks down these political/ownership areas into buff for wilderness, besides just National Forest. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Given the relatively dark green chosen for National Forest, Garmin has to use even darker colors to do shading, resulting in almost unreadable contour detail. Bad choices.

 

As to contour labels, why? Since these are vector maps and every line has a value, let the user move the cursor to the contour for its elevation. Toooo many labels muddy the look, or as you gently suggest: "a little busy".

[MtnHermit]

Snow Lake

 

 

Thanks for the DEM on/off, helps me to understand Garmin's choices.

 

Some observations:

- The shading is very well done and not blocky like on Topo 2008.

- At this level of zoom, the shading adds no information, at a 1-mile scale I suspect I would like it more.

- My Nuvi stops shading at 20 mi by contrast.

- The base green color is too dark, which results in very dark hues for shading.

- Surprised that the trail is so thin, almost invisible against the base green. What happens on private land?

- Too many contour labels and do we need Ft, seems to me a user sets Ft or M and never wonders after that.

Edited August 29, 2008 by MtnHermit

[+Ratsneve]

I believe it has never clicked with you that all of the screenshots I posted were using Above the Timber's maps, NOT Garmin maps. You can download a trial version of these same maps and demo them on your CO/OR today. Just use the provided link. I'd be curious how those maps look on a CO/OR.

 

In another posts, you mentioned how you'd already spent $600 on hardware and software and that was quite enough, I heartily agree.

Not exactly but probably a worse oversight on my part. I knew your shots were from Above the Timber's but I, uh, didn't know you could load other maps into the CO/OR--I thought it had to be Garmin only. Although I've read other threads more recently that were trying to hint to me otherwise nothing had clicked yet.

 

Regarding my costs so far. Since my CO/OR is the 400t with a base topo map I should focus more on its basic usefullness? I might discover Above the Timber's or something else even would serve me better then Garmin's Topo U.S. 24K Northwest MicroSD? Because that is limited to the MicroSD card it would be easy to sell.

 

There is a lot of map homework I feel like I should have done but didn't--instead I just bought City Navigator and the Northwest 24K Topo. I learned recently that this topo series contains City Navigator data. What a surprise!

 

I don't expect other maps to cost much less. Snow Lake, Smith Rock, Silver Falls (added just one shot of before the CO broke when I was also trying to find some serious mountain pass trails out of Mineral King in Sequoia National Park I've been on when I was MUCH younger), and some Mineral King trails should round out good examples for me eventually.

 

***Attention PN-40 Lurker***

I suspect I was using the CO incorrectly while searching for Mineral King and that that caused or contributed to the corrupt software 'system software missing'? The OR may not be able to do what I did with the CO... Which was to leave the location mark in Central Oregon but scan off with the cursor pointer south to Visalia in California and then east and around parts of Kings Canyon. I got lost trying to navigate to Sequoia though when I backed out west to the Valley again. All this time the GPS was redrawing maps time and time again with zooming in and out too. And it was also tracking that I might at any time want to create a waypoint and auto-route to that area. This is when the unit suddenly just shut itself off. And upon several restart attempts I would only get 'system software missing'. Garmin apparently offers no means to renew corrupt GPSr software--this forced me to return the unit to them. There was a way I might have tried but since there was no guarantee it would have worked in this case and it was 3rd party I did not attempt it.

 

What I'd like to know about DeLorme's upcoming PN-40 is whether, if there is software corruption of any sort, there is a means to restore that software (much like reinstalling the OS of a computer). I realize that this may never have happened on the PN-20/40 line yet but I'm going to be gun-shy for some time now that this sort of thing _can_ happen.

***End of DeLorme Request***

 

Geez, I can write long... Okay sooo... I really tried to search for Mineral King under several categories in the CO but could not find anything. I used the base topo map but not City Navigator. Once I Googled and found where Mineral King was I had already gotten as close as Fresno. The question is, what might have been the more proper way to explore an area way way far off from where the GPSr location marker is? I can only suspect now at this point that I should have turned the satellite mode off and set the location marker to Visalia or as close as I could search and find to Mineral King and gone to that new location and searched from there?

 

Thank you.

[+Ratsneve]

Snow Lake

 

 

Thanks for the DEM on/off, helps me to understand Garmin's choices.

 

Some observations:

- The shading is very well done and not blocky like on Topo 2008.

- At this level of zoom, the shading adds no information, at a 1-mile scale I suspect I would like it more.

- My Nuvi stops shading at 20 mi by contrast.

- The base green color is too dark, which results in very dark hues for shading.

- Surprised that the trail is so thin, almost invisible against the base green. What happens on private land?

- Too many contour labels and do we need Ft, seems to me a user sets Ft or M and never wonders after that.

Must wait patiently for the Oregon to arrive. So many things to try...

Thanks for the input. Although I was feeling sort of finished with this thread recent posts have really renewed my interest.

 

Since we must always bear in mind and remember here that what we look at here are screen shots and not actual views of the respective GPSr screens and since we are largely (though it doesn't have to be so) comparing the CO and OR screen details to the PN-20/40 screen details, I would like to ask yet another question of a subject that I keep dwelling on and does relate...

 

***DeLorme (Chris) welcomed to comment (anywhere)***

I've noticed early on that the CO (maybe OR?) full brightness backlighting can vary significantly from Ni-M-H 2.4 V DC to the 5 V DC external sources. Because of this in certain lighting with the CO you will wish you could use 5 V DC all the time, especially with dark shaded areas showing on the map screen. I haven't tried an external 5 V DC power pack on the CO (won't now) or OR yet. BUT, regarding the PN-40 now... I understand several things I think. If one uses Ni-M-H vs Li the V will change from 2.4 V to ~3 V (3.1 V?). Between these battery voltages can you see any screen brightness difference in the PN-40?

 

Secondly on the PN-40... a) You can only use an external power cable to recharge the Li cells installed in the PN-40? You can not charge Ni-M-H cells installed in the PN-40 with the exteranl power cable? c) You cannot use an external power cable to run the PN-40 period--power comes only from the internal batteries? d) When you are charging Li cells installed the screen is no longer full bright? Is there any issue on the usability/visability of the PN-40 screen while this recharge process is going on--if you were viewing a map with shading or a terrain photo might you wish to wait until the charge was finished? e) Is it likely that backpackers will take sets of charged Ni-M-H or Li batteries? Enough... ...Something to work on while I wait for the OR to arrive.

 

Thank you.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Ratsneve]

Snow Lake

 

 

Thanks for the DEM on/off, helps me to understand Garmin's choices.

 

Some observations:

- The shading is very well done and not blocky like on Topo 2008.

- At this level of zoom, the shading adds no information, at a 1-mile scale I suspect I would like it more.

- My Nuvi stops shading at 20 mi by contrast.

- The base green color is too dark, which results in very dark hues for shading.

- Surprised that the trail is so thin, almost invisible against the base green. What happens on private land?

- Too many contour labels and do we need Ft, seems to me a user sets Ft or M and never wonders after that.

I agree with everything above though if one was inclinded to use ft and m on different occassions it might be nice to somewhere indicate 'Contours in Ft' or 'Contours in m'?

 

I just noticed something else relating to the clutter though. Notice that even though both these shots were made at a 300 ft zoom the exact map position is different and what contours indicate what footage labels changes too. This is dynamic and a mess. To bad the contour footage can't stick to just the darker contour intervals and when zoom'd further out this frequency would decrease more? No doubt this is tough to program one way or the other.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Ratsneve

[MtnHermit]

Must wait patiently for the Oregon to arrive. So many things to try...

So is your CO dead? Waiting for the OR?

[MtnHermit]

I just noticed something else relating to the clutter though. Notice that even though both these shots were made at a 300 ft zoom the exact map position is different and what contours indicate what footage labels changes too. This is dynamic and a mess. To bad the contour footage can't stick to just the darker contour intervals and when zoom'd further out this frequency would decrease more? No doubt this is tough to program one way or the other.

Indeed it is dynamic!!! As to a mess, I've always been impressed with Garmin's base map labeling. For objects that are part of the map, I've never seen two labels one top of one-another. That's impressive programming.

 

Perhaps you do some/a lot of programming and are a better judge.

 

I suspect part of our judgment is related to screen resolution, on a eTrex it looks good. But on your CO and my Nuvi it looks busy. Here's a 60CSx screenshot from NW 24K Topos:

 

 

Doesn't look busy to me. The mapping language is now 10+ years old, I don't have 20-20 foresight, how about you?

Edited August 29, 2008 by MtnHermit

[+Ratsneve]

Must wait patiently for the Oregon to arrive. So many things to try...

So is your CO dead? Waiting for the OR?

Yes. Explained up in one of the recent lengthy messages above with more questions there. Rather then let Garmin fix the 'system software missing' problem I worked a one-time deal to 'upgrade' to an Oregon for $40 but got them to email me a prepaid UPS label too. This will not preclude me from selling the Oregon in the future but hopefully it will give me a more 'robust' GPSr that works with several CO problems fixed or were never an issue. I'll get to see first-hand if the backlighting issues are any better or worse, how the touchscreen works with bare fingers in comfortable weather, whether it leaks, whether its accuracy is any better or not, whether it ever locks up or shuts off, whether its battery life is any better or not..., and whether I can reproduce 'system software missing' in it too? If I do the later I will try the 3rd party solution first before returning it to Garmin for repair? I've had three COs...this will be the first OR. If I have to get it fixed for any reason in the near future it is very doubtful I will do anything further but sell it on ebay with its maps and fall back on the PN-40. Personally I think Garmin should offer a one-time upgrade to the Oregon to anyone with a Colorado and refund my $40 but that will depend on just where the #$%^, if any, flies inside Garmin.

Edited August 30, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+embra]

What I'd like to know about DeLorme's upcoming PN-40 is whether, if there is software corruption of any sort, there is a means to restore that software (much like reinstalling the OS of a computer).

 

Responses extrapolated from PN-20 use (*probably* accurate as they have the same form factor):

 

There are a range of reset options on the PN-20. I have been particularly impressed that-unlike other GPS devices I have owned--if something goes awry on a firmware update the PN-20 is not bricked, but can be accessed for a "forced" firmware installation. So I don't know if it covers all situations like you described with your CO, but I would be optimistic.

 

If one uses Ni-M-H vs Li the V will change from 2.4 V to ~3 V (3.1 V?). Between these battery voltages can you see any screen brightness difference in the PN-40?

 

Secondly on the PN-40... a) You can only use an external power cable to recharge the Li cells installed in the PN-40? cool.gif You can not charge Ni-M-H cells installed in the PN-40 with the exteranl power cable? c) You cannot use an external power cable to run the PN-40 period--power comes only from the internal batteries? d) When you are charging Li cells installed the screen is no longer full bright? Is there any issue on the usability/visability of the PN-40 screen while this recharge process is going on--if you were viewing a map with shading or a terrain photo might you wish to wait until the charge was finished? e) Is it likely that backpackers will take sets of charged Ni-M-H or Li batteries?

 

Take these responses with a grain of salt...I'm not certain, as I've generally been oblivious to any display variations.

 

No screen brightnesses ever detected by me with different battery types.

 

a) There's also an external charger for use if you take the Li-Ion out. But any USB cable with a mini-connector will work with the travel kit adapter for the PN-20.

 

b Only rechargeable Li-Ions will charge in the PN-20, not Ni-MHs.

 

c) You can run on external power (e.g., a 12v converter in a car)

 

d) I'm pretty sure the screen is not at full bright when charging, so as to send more juice to the battery. Screen goes to full bright on full charge.

 

e) If someone wants to have the GPS on all day, additional batteries would be needed for extended hikes.

[MtnHermit]

If someone wants to have the GPS on all day, additional batteries would be needed for extended hikes.

That was one of the many "features" of the PN-20 that dissuaded me and I purchased an eTrex back in Jan`07.

 

I just came back from a 3-day BP where the eTrex was on whenever I was moving. The odometer shows 18-miles with an on time of 17-hours. The battery meter still shows full. One pair of well used Powerex 2700s.

[MtnHermit]

Must wait patiently for the Oregon to arrive. So many things to try...

So is your CO dead? Waiting for the OR?

I've had three CO...this will be the first OR.

Three CO's oh my!!! You sure do have a way with words.

 

You'll like the OR if my Nuvi is any guide. The CPU is dramatically faster, so complex maps will draw much faster. The touchscreen will work with heavy gloves, but it also makes daylight visibility worse. I'll be interested in your reaction.

[+Team DeLorme]

Ratsneve, I think Embra's reply answered all of your questions...

 

We have several methods to recover with the PN-Series, the last resort being a re-run of the firmware that ships with the device and is available through our support site until a new firmware update is released.

 

Our device can use AA, LiIon, e2Li, and NiMH batteries. The device can charge the LiIon battery and will display a reduced backlight while charging. I don't notice because I keep my backlight set to half power anyway... This afternoon I did have to take my sunglasses off while driving with a particularly dark section of high res aerial imagery.

 

I use the LiIon rechargeable when I'm geocaching from a vehicle and I can use the power adapter. I'll switch to e2 Lithiums for multi-day trips when weight is a concern... besides, I still can't believe how much time you can get out of a set of e2 Lithiums. Add to that the fact that the PN-Series devices float when using the LiIon or e2Li batteries and it's a cool thing while kayaking.

 

I hope that answers some of your questions...

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

[+Ratsneve]

Indeed it is dynamic!!! As to a mess, I've always been impressed with Garmin's base map labeling. For objects that are part of the map, I've never seen two labels one top of one-another. That's impressive programming.

 

Perhaps you do some/a lot of programming and are a better judge.

 

I suspect part of our judgment is related to screen resolution, on a eTrex it looks good. But on your CO and my Nuvi it looks busy. Here's a 60CSx screenshot from NW 24K Topos:

 

 

Doesn't look busy to me. The mapping language is now 10+ years old, I don't have 20-20 foresight, how about you?

Maybe I've grown to old and disappointed? Over the years I learned enough about programming to know I had no skill at it but that one skilled at it could do just about anything. I beta tested a number of early text adventure games for Infocom and Adventure International. My career was light aircraft and commercial satellite product assurance. I lived by-the-book and enjoyed facilitating good corrective action for a variety of customers including the military. No doubt this is one reason why I feel so disappointed in the problems the Colorado has and I perceive Garmin to have.

 

I don't know what you meant by the "20-20 foresight" comment, but I meant to reply some about me here and forgot.

Edited September 1, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Ratsneve]

Ratsneve, I think Embra's reply answered all of your questions...

 

We have several methods to recover with the PN-Series, the last resort being a re-run of the firmware that ships with the device and is available through our support site until a new firmware update is released.

 

Our device can use AA, LiIon, e2Li, and NiMH batteries. The device can charge the LiIon battery and will display a reduced backlight while charging. I don't notice because I keep my backlight set to half power anyway... This afternoon I did have to take my sunglasses off while driving with a particularly dark section of high res aerial imagery.

 

I use the LiIon rechargeable when I'm geocaching from a vehicle and I can use the power adapter. I'll switch to e2 Lithiums for multi-day trips when weight is a concern... besides, I still can't believe how much time you can get out of a set of e2 Lithiums. Add to that the fact that the PN-Series devices float when using the LiIon or e2Li batteries and it's a cool thing while kayaking.

 

I hope that answers some of your questions...

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

Thanks Chip. You may have read that I managed a one-time exchange with Garmin for an Oregon to replace my Colorado that went belly-up on me last week? Because the Oregon currently is doing so much better then the Colorado in all respects it is unlikely I will be selling it right off the bat for a PN-40 when they come out in two months. That is today--right now. In two months who knows?

 

Although I am interested in the mapping differences and possibilites between GPSr's and DeLorme's PN-40 in particular to what Garmin offers my actual mapping needs are very basic. The Oregon's larger screen has got to remain 75% of the problem stopping me right now.

[+Team DeLorme]

I'm glad you're enjoying your new device... hopefully we've provided enough information to help you should the mapping features on the PN-40 spark your curiosity again. Keep an eye on the DeLorme forum and blog for more information as we approach the Earthmate PN-40 release...

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

[MtnHermit]

Doesn't look busy to me. The mapping language is now 10+ years old, I don't have 20-20 foresight, how about you?

I don't know what you meant by the "20-20 foresight" comment,

Simply that I'm impressed with Garmin's mapping language given how far technology has moved in 10+ years.

 

It's very difficult to perceive all the future map requirements and still maintain backwards compatibility. So I'd give Garmin a "A" for their map language/foresight.

[+Ratsneve]

I'm glad you're enjoying your new device... hopefully we've provided enough information to help you should the mapping features on the PN-40 spark your curiosity again. Keep an eye on the DeLorme forum and blog for more information as we approach the Earthmate PN-40 release...

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

Dad-gummit... Regarding my last Oregon statements above... I meant that the recent current Oregon posts here are positive compared to the Colorado. I actually don't have my Oregon yet--should get it as early as the end of this week or into next week. Sorry that I have mislead some people with my misleading wordage.

 

I shouldn't soon forget my eye-opening introduction to the PN-20 (PN-40) here. I wish I could learn why DeLorme didn't introduce a larger screen, maybe even a wide screen with the PN-40? Is it locked up in maps that would have to all be changed to some degree? No doubt part of my problem here may be that I have never used any GPS portable enough to value a smaller size even with a small screen over its bigger "brothers"? I still have not taken a working PN-20 out into sunlight and compared it to a Colorado and Oregon in sunlight--all at the same time. I wish I lived near REI. The one retailer near me with all these units may be reluctant since I bought and returned my first CO from them. They may not see any sale possibility. But who knows until I ask. They should actually have equal curiosity in the "problem" of visibiltiy and screen sizes.

 

Also, what is DeLorme's take on IPX7? Is the warranty coverage good if we deliberately go swimming or kayaking with the PN-40 where it might be kept constantly wet for long periods of time? How do you warranty IPX7? Thank you Chip for good help.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Ratsneve]

Doesn't look busy to me. The mapping language is now 10+ years old, I don't have 20-20 foresight, how about you?

I don't know what you meant by the "20-20 foresight" comment,

Simply that I'm impressed with Garmin's mapping language given how far technology has moved in 10+ years.

 

It's very difficult to perceive all the future map requirements and still maintain backwards compatibility. So I'd give Garmin a "A" for their map language/foresight.

Refresh my memory (if my memory can be refreshed? )...what is significant about this picture? It isn't a Garmin map is it--because the contour labels are different and the trail is black and not white?

Edited September 3, 2008 by Ratsneve

[MtnHermit]

Refresh my memory (if my memory can be refreshed? )...what is significant about this picture? It isn't a Garmin map is it--because the contour labels are different and the trail is black and not white?

Forum member LowBat published it in another thread. It shows Garmin's NW 24K Topos, same microSD you own, BUT using a 60CSx, not a CO/OR. We had a discussion about too many contour labels, I used this to suggest the whole label issue was because of the high resolution display of the CO/OR/Nuvi. I think that discussion happened several years ago.

 

Also, as you noted, the 60CSx displays trail and background colors different than your CO. Apparently the CO/OR have unique colors because of the DEM shading.

[+Team DeLorme]

I shouldn't soon forget my eye-opening introduction to the PN-20 (PN-40) here. I wish I could learn why DeLorme didn't introduce a larger screen, maybe even a wide screen with the PN-40? Is it locked up in maps that would have to all be changed to some degree? No doubt part of my problem here may be that I have never used any GPS portable enough to value a smaller size even with a small screen over its bigger "brothers"? I still have not taken a working PN-20 out into sunlight and compared it to a Colorado and Oregon in sunlight--all at the same time. I wish I lived near REI. The one retailer near me with all these units may be reluctant since I bought and returned my first CO from them. They may not see any sale possibility. But who knows until I ask. They should actually have equal curiosity in the "problem" of visibiltiy and screen sizes.

 

Also, what is DeLorme's take on IPX7? Is the warranty coverage good if we deliberately go swimming or kayaking with the PN-40 where it might be kept constantly wet for long periods of time? How do you warranty IPX7? Thank you Chip for good help.

There have been many requests for a larger screen... Our goal with the PN-40 was to release a second generation device with a more powerful processor, to deliver a better GPS chipset, and to include electronic compass and barometric altimeter sensors. We didn't pursue a larger screen because it would require changes to plastics and the board layout, something that would increase the price of the unit beyond just the more expensive screen. We've also had very positive feedback from PN-20 owners and PN-40 beta testers regarding the daylight readable screen and how well it performs in different outdoor light conditions. We've had several testers conduct side by side readability comparisons with our competitors and had the PN outperform the larger screens. Clearly I'm biased, but I'd rather have a smaller screen that I can read than a larger one that is hard to see. I'd strongly recommend taking the devices you're considering outside with a sales rep, it's an important purchase consideration and the sales rep will benefit from seeing the differences.

 

As for IPX7 waterproofing standards, we're compliant and guarantee our device to 3 feet for 30 minutes. The warranty coverage is good for swimming, kayaking, and any other activity that doesn't go below 3 feet. I've been white water kayaking, rafting, sea kayaking, canoeing, and even swimming without incident. I don't recommend scuba diving with the device or cliff jumping but I'm not sure how they would test for that should you try to return the device. You could contact our customer service department if you have specific questions about the warranty, my experience is that DeLorme is much more concerned about making sure our customers are happy then they are in hardware return forensics... abusers of any policy become apparent with time. I hope this helps…

 

Chip Noble

DeLorme

[+Ratsneve]

There have been many requests for a larger screen... Our goal with the PN-40 was to release a second generation device with a more powerful processor, to deliver a better GPS chipset, and to include electronic compass and barometric altimeter sensors. We didn't pursue a larger screen because it would require changes to plastics and the board layout, something that would increase the price of the unit beyond just the more expensive screen. We've also had very positive feedback from PN-20 owners and PN-40 beta testers regarding the daylight readable screen and how well it performs in different outdoor light conditions. We've had several testers conduct side by side readability comparisons with our competitors and had the PN outperform the larger screens. Clearly I'm biased, but I'd rather have a smaller screen that I can read than a larger one that is hard to see. I'd strongly recommend taking the devices you're considering outside with a sales rep, it's an important purchase consideration and the sales rep will benefit from seeing the differences.

 

As for IPX7 waterproofing standards, we're compliant and guarantee our device to 3 feet for 30 minutes. The warranty coverage is good for swimming, kayaking, and any other activity that doesn't go below 3 feet. I've been white water kayaking, rafting, sea kayaking, canoeing, and even swimming without incident. I don't recommend scuba diving with the device or cliff jumping but I'm not sure how they would test for that should you try to return the device. You could contact our customer service department if you have specific questions about the warranty, my experience is that DeLorme is much more concerned about making sure our customers are happy then they are in hardware return forensics... abusers of any policy become apparent with time. I hope this helps…

 

Chip Noble

DeLorme

Wow! Thanks again Chip. I made a startling discovery today--Bend has had an REI store for around 3 years now. Honestly, I've never needed to shop there before or I think I would have discovered it as I did today from RIE.com. I'm going to make contact with their "GPS Master" rsn. I don't think I want to hear the end of this GPS Challenge yet.

 

I think it was G-O-Cashers who mentioned elsewhere that the CO/OR navigation search didn't include "exit services". I took this to mean, at least in part, that if you were autorouting along a highway from point A to point B and needed to find where the nearest restaurant or gas station was up ahead you would get a list of places but no clue as to their direction (at least not unless you did a goto I assume)--is it a mile behind or a mile up ahead? I never tried to do this with my Colorados but I haven't been driving any long trips--yet.

 

I believe you mentioned and I read that the PN-40 will come with Topo7 which will include street routing? Will the PN-40 do these "exit services" searches? Is Topo7 old--shouldn't there be a Topo9 coming out soon?

 

If the PN-20 does "exit services" too I'd like to see pictures of the map and search details, but I will go over it all soon enough at REI I hope.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Ratsneve]

I went into my local REI for the first time up here and discovered they didn't have any DeLorme product in stock. The salesperson--not the "GPS Master"--said they had been having trouble/issues with DeLorme. He suggested it was maybe quality control related problems but could not eleaborate more. This really shocked me but it seemed true--not one PN-20.

 

Anyway now, I think I will just hang-out and twist and turn for awhile... The confusion feels so good.

[+Team DeLorme]

I went into my local REI for the first time up here and discovered they didn't have any DeLorme product in stock. The salesperson--not the "GPS Master"--said they had been having trouble/issues with DeLorme. He suggested it was maybe quality control related problems but could not eleaborate more. This really shocked me but it seemed true--not one PN-20.

 

Anyway now, I think I will just hang-out and twist and turn for awhile... The confusion feels so good.

Thanks Ratsneve, another good example of how GPS manufacturers benefit from keeping an eye on active forums like gc.com... not all that positive, but something we can remedy. I've just forwarded your post and a link to this thread to our retail training rep. He'll be sure to get in touch with the folks at REI in Bend, OR and help them out with any problems they've experienced. We've found as much positive feedback from getting out to train staff at retail locations as we have from participating with customers on the forums.

 

To answer your question... the PN-Series devices do have Exit Services like you'll find in Topo USA. All you have to do is change the Find option to Show: Points of Interest and Category: Exits and Rest Areas. I just ran a quick test and found Exit 5B in Portland, ME. It shows Information: Exit with Service / Food-Lodging-Other Portland, ME 04102. Once you take the exit you could change your POI category to Restaurants and find the Dogfish Cafe, one of my favorite restaurants in the city. You'll get the restaurant phone number too so you can call ahead to see if they are busy then create a route to their location.

 

Topo USA 7.0 is the latest version of that software. We'll be releasing a remaster with some updates to support the Earthmate PN-40 when we ship the new device. Thanks again for the note about your experience at REI; we'll help them out right away.

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

[+Ratsneve]

[Groundspeak hiccup]

Edited September 5, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Ratsneve]

Thanks Ratsneve, another good example of how GPS manufacturers benefit from keeping an eye on active forums like gc.com... not all that positive, but something we can remedy. I've just forwarded your post and a link to this thread to our retail training rep. He'll be sure to get in touch with the folks at REI in Bend, OR and help them out with any problems they've experienced. We've found as much positive feedback from getting out to train staff at retail locations as we have from participating with customers on the forums.

 

To answer your question... the PN-Series devices do have Exit Services like you'll find in Topo USA. All you have to do is change the Find option to Show: Points of Interest and Category: Exits and Rest Areas. I just ran a quick test and found Exit 5B in Portland, ME. It shows Information: Exit with Service / Food-Lodging-Other Portland, ME 04102. Once you take the exit you could change your POI category to Restaurants and find the Dogfish Cafe, one of my favorite restaurants in the city. You'll get the restaurant phone number too so you can call ahead to see if they are busy then create a route to their location.

 

Topo USA 7.0 is the latest version of that software. We'll be releasing a remaster with some updates to support the Earthmate PN-40 when we ship the new device. Thanks again for the note about your experience at REI; we'll help them out right away.

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

Holly-cow Chip. Thanks. I've lost track of all the reasons to give up the Colorados and Oregons and can't think of any reason not to get the PN-40 but its "silly" screen size.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Ratsneve]

(I originally posted this reply to a reply in another thread but stretched the op's original topic to far... So I will post it here since it does offer up a new (different) "map challenge" of sorts and some new detailed questioning of how the PN-40 works connected to a PC.)

 

Actually, my best recommendation would be to return the Earthmate LT-40 and replace it with an Earthmate PN-40. You'll be able to use the USB cable to connect the PN-40 to your laptop like an external antennae and have that GPS device drive Street Atlas or Topo USA on your laptop, then when you get close you can unplug the PN-40 and take it out of the vehicle to find the cache.

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

Is this how one might normally connect the PN-40 to their PC at home when planning/working with routes, tracks, maps, updating PN-40 firmware/software, etc? When you plug or unplug the PN-40 does it shut off or does it stay in the same state it was in?

 

The Colorado/Oregons have two USB modes--one for accessing files in the GPSr where you could add or delete certain files, update software, and use MapSource; and a second mode which was just for external power 5 volts, a brighter screen, and to actually use the GPS (no PC function). Internal batteries, regardless of type, are isolated (not used or charged). Whenever you plugged your MicroUSB in I always had to select either external battery or file/MapSource access.

 

It would be nice if one USB connection/mode to the PN-40 and PC would allow all the PC connectivity, use of the GPSr, battery charging if Li-ion, isolation of other battery types, software/firmware updates, and PN-40 upload/download file structure access automagically?

 

Here is a thought too for a future PN-40 software upgrade... Offer PN-40 connectivity to certain astonomy programs like Starry Night Pro to provide coordinate, elevation, and clock input? And you could take this much further if the PN-40 could project the local star field overhead instead of an Earth map. Fun GPS option for some but perhaps not enough interest to warrant?

 

Has it been said and confirmed that there are no DeLorme or _3rd-party_ maps of Canadian roads and topography that the PN-40 can use? This would include being able to autoroute roads at least?

 

Thanks.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Ratsneve]

I'm going to try to go "quiet" and stick to this thread because I'm very confused about issues.

 

I just had a very interesting phone conversation with another salesperson GPS expert at the Bend REI store. He tells me that something like _all_ recent (24?) PN-20s sold between the Bend and Tualatin stores in Oregon were returned. To understand why we talked a little about map differences between DeLorme and Garmin and drawing speeds. I described the problems I had had with the Colorado.

 

An interesting thing mentioned I was not aware of because I seldom wear dark glasses was if you wore polarized sunglasses you could not see any GPSr model display screens. I assume that when we have talked here about screen visibility issues we have all removed our sunglasses?

 

DeLorme is going to have their work cut out for them restoring REI's confidence in Central Oregon with not only the PN-20 (PN-40?) but also with their "poor" maps.

 

Interesting that this experienced REI salesperson still uses and prefers and would recommend the Garmin 60CSx!

 

A new Oregon 2.4 software update has just come out for the Oregon with one new problem already reported as a result.

 

No news where my new Oregon is. Correction... My new Oregon should arrive 9-10, next Wednesday.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Team CowboyPapa]

I'm not sure what the sunglass issue is to which he was referring.

I have no trouble with or without mine, but they are not polarizing, if that matters.

 

If I had a welding face guard, I could see if that effects it, but I don't.

 

I suggest that you really ought to find one for yourself and put in in your own hands.

 

If you do call that guy back, make sure it's a toll free number. I'd hate to pay for that information.

[+Team DeLorme]

That's interesting, I spoke with our training coordinator at lunch today and he said he called the Bend, Oregon store to see how things were going, asked if they needed any training or information about the device. Their product expert said he liked the PN-20... I'm not sure who you spoke with on the phone. I sent your post through... a statistic like he quoted will show up in our records and certainly be something we'll want to resolve if it proves out.

 

I agree with Team CowboyPapa, do your own evaluation. You've already seen lots of screen shot examples to get a feel for the maps and how they compare with what you're familiar with... You'll have to judge for yourself on that topic.

 

Our screen has been rated very highly... and I do use polarized glasses for fly fishing. You can experience the classic "turn your head to the side" fade out that occurs with polarized lenses and any screen display. Just don't tilt your head all the way to the side and you'll be fine, normal viewing angles don't cause any problem.

 

We know that the PN-20 map draw speeds can be slower if you are viewing imagery or moving very fast in a car while zoomed in to a high detailed map, but otherwise the device performs well for its intended uses... hiking, biking, hunting, paddling... We're coming out with the dual processor in the PN-40 and I can assure you that device has a blazing fast map redraw, even at the highest detail when traveling in a car... showing high resolution color aerial imagery.

 

You're in the same boat here though... you don't want to just take my word for it. Go to a store and try one out yourself. And don't forget that there's a 30 day money back guarantee so you have time to change your mind even if you do make a purchase.

 

Good luck with the rest of your search...

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

[+benjamin921]

He must have special sunglasses because I have no issues with my PN-20 and polarized sunglasses. As Chip has already stated that the screen re-draw time when viewing large imagery files can slow (and when I say slow I mean 4-6 seconds sometimes) but when riding or hiking you really don't notice it that much. Sounds like once REI gets their hands on a 40, they will stock them.

[+Ratsneve]

I'm not sure what the sunglass issue is to which he was referring.

I have no trouble with or without mine, but they are not polarizing, if that matters.

 

If I had a welding face guard, I could see if that effects it, but I don't.

 

I suggest that you really ought to find one for yourself and put in in your own hands.

 

If you do call that guy back, make sure it's a toll free number. I'd hate to pay for that information.

Just the polarizing filter glasses block out the GPSr screens and we are not talking about just the PN-20 but all GPSr screens including 60CSx, Colorado, and Oregon. I suppose very few people wear polarized sun glasses. Of associated note is that this includes aircraft instrument flat panels too. You can be sure that pilots like to read their flight displays.

 

I'm not giving up on anything...just reporting my continuing confusion/frustration learning of and finding the GPS I'd like to spend some time with and the art of GPSing. Just because REI in Bend is currently out of stock doesn't mean there won't be opportunities to revisit all this when they get one. Time will tell and prove out the PN-40 when it comes out...

 

It's a local call and the guy sounds just as expert, nice, and patient explaining GPS factors to me as any of you.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Team CowboyPapa]

 

It's a local call and .....

Whew! Actually, I was just kidding about that toll free....

 

But, I do appreciate the issue of the screen redraw at 70mph. As Chip said, while walking around and geocaching, I don't see that the screen redraw is an impediment.

 

OTOH, I am fortunate to have a factory installed NAV/GPS system in my Jeep. Consequently, the screen draw rate does not affect me there, either.

[+julianh]

Just the polarizing filter glasses block out the GPSr screens and we are not talking about just the PN-20 but all GPSr screens including 60CSx, Colorado, and Oregon. I suppose very few people wear polarized sun glasses. Of associated note is that this includes aircraft instrument flat panels too. You can be sure that pilots like to read their flight displays.

LCD screens use polarised light as part of the technology for turning pixels on and off, so they are generally affected by polarised sunglasses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal_display

 

Polarised sunglasses are set up so as to block horizontally polarised light reflecting off horizontal surfaces (water, beach sand, snow, etc). LCD screens in electronic devices should be set up so as to NOT be horizontally polarised - otherwise, the image can be totally blocked when viewed through polarised glasses. (Note - I may have the details as to which is vertical polarisation vs. horizontal polarisation mixed up, but you should get the gist!)

 

My laptop screen and my desktop screen both seem to be polarised at 45 degrees - quite bright when viewed through polarised sunglasses horizontally or vertically, but almost black when viewed with my head tilted 45 degrees. (I tend to get a sore neck if I use my laptop for too long like this, so it is not much of an issue for me!) My Summit HC is polarised vertically - quite visible when held in normal orientation, but goes black when viewed sideways.

 

My Creative Zen mp3 player, my Motorola phone, and my car SatNav device (cheap generic Chinese unit with 4.3" touch-screen) are a bit of a mystery to me - they show almost no dimming regardless of which way I view them. Obviously, there are some LCD screen technologies which have found a way around the polarised sunglasses issue. (Could be "circularly polarised" perhaps?)

Edited September 6, 2008 by julianh

[+Ratsneve]

Interesting read about the different polarizations possible and their effects.

 

The REI GPS expert thought the salesperson DeLorme spoke to earlier today was ill informed. I elevated the issue to a GPS product direct sales person at REI in Seattle. He was not aware of all the Central Oregon PN-20 returns but was lukewarm toward the PN-20 anyway, preferring his 60CSx over everything else. Anyway, more will come of all this one day--I'm waiting. The Bend REI guy could not say when they might get a PN-20 in but encouraged me to stay in touch and accepted my proposal to demo the PN-20 with me to go over the likes and dislikes of it with the Oregon. One day we will repeat this with the PN-40 too.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Ratsneve]

I read in a recent Groundspeak\GPS and Technology DeLorme PN-40 thread that those beta testing the unit have been somewhat released from their NDA. Does that mean you could post your own PN-40 screen shots now and we could leave the PN-20 out of the "picture"--pun not intended?

 

I don't know what the REI title, GPS Master, means but let's assume he knows something about GPSrs. As a still not well informed GPS map person I didn't like seeing the trail over the saddel at Snow Lake both straightened out and misslocated. And if I bought a GPS with a base map full of map errors I would be disappointed. It is probably wrong to think that a new GPS owner would immediately buy or download maps to improve the accuracy and/or detail of what they just bought. Numerous map "errors" of this sort (but I don't know the extent of it) is apparently the single most reason so many people returned their PN-20s to the Bend REI and why sales people in the know are lukewarm at best toward DeLorme--IMO at this point.

 

The REI GPS Master thought the difficulty was that DeLorme's base map was a "vector" type instead of whatever Garmin uses (bit type?) for example. It gets very sketchy here from my memory of the discussion and lack of taking any notes. It sounded like Garmin takes images of a map series which includes trail and POIs but that DeLorme's approach with Topo7 is somehow different and explains why redrawing the maps is slower and details are missing or not accurate, like the trail.

 

So the question is whether that accracy and details of Topo7 on the PN-40 are going to be as good as Garmin's or will one right off the bat be looking for a better road and terrain map to use or will they too be returning their PN-40?

 

***

Another interest between the Oregon and PN-40 is this recently learned term "exit search" for food or gas off of your route. G-O-Cashers mentioned that neither the CO or OR could do "exit serch" but I have noticed this when I have done searches for new waypoionts. The list produced on the Colorado would include a small directional arrow and distance to by the item. What more do you really need? If it is a gas station 2 miles ahead you GoTo it and your autoroute would be interrupted and the new route off the freeway to the gas station would be displaye--right? When done you GoTo your Route or next WP.

 

What am I missing that would be better about a real "exit search" GPS option? Do the search results include little maps or more description detail of what exit up ahead is needed? I would assume that this sort of feature in itself isn't why you would pick one portable GPS over another.

 

***

I think I mislead myself when someone demonstrated how to create the missing trail structure of Smith Rock and through a transparent overlay placed it on a PN-20 map screen? I keep hearing (I think/thought) that the Oregon isn't limited to only Garmin maps but so far no one has explained or demonstrated how to add add a missing trail to the Smith Rock park which would then be laid on top of either Garmin's Topo 24K or City Navigator? I'm trying to understand the possibilities of how to do this on the Oregon--not on the PN-40 where I already know it is possible. I've thrown in layers here in a way that hasn't been used before. I'm assuming Garmin's MapSource wouldn't be involved--after all it won't display the Topo 24K anyway since it is on the MicroSD. So I would load to Oregon internal free memory a SmithRock.xxx file which already would have inbeded in it the SmithRock trail structure. I would then go to Display Maps or whatever it was called on the Oregon and select the 24K Topo from the MicroSD card and also select my SmithRock map. Of course I want the SmithRock map on top of the 24K region topo map and not the other way around?? I'll end it here. Obviously if this really makes sense so far the next question is how to create the Smith Rock map. If it is impossible to do on the Oregon then I need to stop here. If (and I suspect it might be) "how to do mapping" of this sort is not appropriate for this GPS and Technology forum where do I need to relocate to?

 

Of course... Would trails added by overlay on a different map and then used on top of Topo7 on the PN-40 or City Navigator or Topo 24K MicroSD on the Oregon still be (auto)routable? I don't like straight line routes any more. Is there any additional mapping process that could make them routable?

 

Thank you.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Ratsneve

[MtnHermit]

The REI GPS Master thought the difficulty was that DeLorme's base map was a "vector" type instead of whatever Garmin uses (bit type?) for example. It gets very sketchy here from my memory of the discussion and lack of taking any notes. It sounded like Garmin takes images of a map series which includes trail and POIs but that DeLorme's approach with Topo7 is somehow different and explains why redrawing the maps is slower and details are missing or not accurate, like the trail.

That's totally wrong. Vector and Bitmap are not the issues.

 

The PN-20/40 can use either vector or bitmap, whereas Garmin's are vector only. Although the CO/OR have some limited geo-referenced bitmap functionality in the two 400 non-t flavors. Your Garmin 24K NW is a vector map, so too are the 24K maps from Above the Timber. The real problem is Delorme's Topo 7 vector maps, they're not true 24K maps, only the contours are 24K, "everything" else is at 100K resolution. That's why the Snow Lake trail is straight and misplaced.

 

The holy grail of maps are the USGS 7.5-min Topos at 24K, Delorme's PN-20/40 can load/view those maps as geo-referenced bitmaps or raster maps. Sound good? Well maybe Yes, maybe No. After using vector maps inside a GPS for the last 16-months, I'm convinced that true 24K vector maps are superior to 24K raster maps. Others may disagree.

 

The basic reason: every thing you see is an identifiable object (point, line, area) on a vector map, on a raster map everything is a pixel, just ink dots.

 

Aerial photos are yet another issue, not covered in this rant.

 

/ end rant

[+Ratsneve]

But, I do appreciate the issue of the screen redraw at 70mph. As Chip said, while walking around and geocaching, I don't see that the screen redraw is an impediment.

 

OTOH, I am fortunate to have a factory installed NAV/GPS system in my Jeep. Consequently, the screen draw rate does not affect me there, either.

Here is an example of where it was a serious impediment on the Colorado--granted I may have been misusing the thing to accomplish what I was trying to do--but I still don't know 'how' better. The location pointer is stuck up in Central Oregon but I'm trying to on-the-fly scan down through Sequoic National Park in California. The map redrawing times were awful and I'd bet this was what caused the "system software missing" error and wrecked the unit? It doesn't look like Garmin knows how to protect the various memory locations involved? But I digress...

 

One of the first things I'm going to pursue with the Oregon next week is to go back to Sequoia but I'm going to try something different. I'm going to use MapSource and set up a WP (don't need a permanent POI yet) and transfer that WP to the Oregon to compare the map in MapSource with the Oregon map. (Please don't confuse the Oregon map with the Oregon GPS. But Sequoia is in California and I don't have the 24K California Topo MicroSD. I was using the base topo the 400t comes with (I think) looking for trails with lots of switchbacks going out of Mineral King. I want to find something grand down there and there and see what it looks like (at some point) with Topo7 on the PN-40.

 

Portable outdoor GPSrs or not these things can be used for driving and cars do go around 70 mph in some places. Does the PN-40 keep up with 70 mph? Does the PN-40 keep up as well, if not better, then the Oregon?

 

It is not fair to use any other GPSrs except true portables in this GPS Map Challenge discussion from now on. No factory installed anything and no Garmin nuvis either. As far as that goes all portables must meet or exceed IPX7 too...so if you have a leaky Colorado you can't use it here either.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Team CowboyPapa]

I read in a recent Groundspeak\GPS and Technology DeLorme PN-40 thread that those beta testing the unit have been somewhat released from their NDA. Does that mean you could post your own PN-40 screen shots now and we could leave the PN-20 out of the "picture"--pun not intended?

 

This is true and I'll be back later to answer as much as I can that already hasn't been addressed. For example, MtnH was correct about the vector map viz a viz the "raster" maps. I have the USGS 3DTQ maps of SoCAL and AZ and they are fully accurate with respect to roads, trails etc. However, the drawback with the raster maps is that they are really only useable, viewable at Zoom levels of 12 - 14. The included DeLorme Topo 7 maps do have some issues with respect to accuracy and alignment. OTOH, as "vector" maps they scale up and down with Zoom level and are therefore viewable throughout the entire Zoom range. It's just a tradeoff and one can't everything perfect all of the time. 10-4?

 

Oh yeah, no real change in screen shots that I can recall. But wow, can you now get from one to another in a blink of an eye. No more issue of redraw rate slowness! (But if I'm mistaken on screenshots, Ben....help me out.... .)

[+Team DeLorme]

I'm embarrassed to say that I missed the scale difference that MtnHermit has brought to everyone's attention. I was focused on the DeLorme questions and didn't realize that you were comparing our 100K Topo USA data that comes with the PN-20 to Garmin's 24K Topo data that can be purchased separately for their devices.

 

A 100K dataset will not have the same granularity as a 24K dataset, that's the nature of scale and resolution.

 

Since I work for the company I need to point out that our new DeLorme Map Library gives you access to the USGS 24K maps for the entire US for $30... you also get access to high resolution color aerial imagery and nautical charts... also for the entire US. Add to this the street routing network and business point of interest dataset that is part of Topo USA and you've got access to quite a collection of maps for your GPS device.

 

Let's keep an eye on the bottom line too... I'm looking at the Earthmate PN-40 at $430 for everything. But now you're drawing me away from my design department and into the sales and marketing department...

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme