Jump to content

How do we change people’s attitude towards filing a DNF


lrosell
Followers 4

Recommended Posts

My question is quite simple; how do we change people’s attitude towards filing a DNF? In or are (Western PA) filing a DNF is quite unpopular. I know, similar discussions are going around quite frequently here on the forums but after this weekend I feel I need to bring it up again.

 

Let me first start by explaining our personal take on DNFs. We file a DNF if we pushed the ‘Goto’ button and started to search for the cache. An exception could be if we pushed ‘Goto’ in order to research a certain location that we knew in advance we would not attempt that day. Like for example a cache way up in a tree or similar. But in general, if we don’t find it, it’s a DNF. If we go back and searched a second time and don’t find it, it’s another DNF. Quite simple really.

 

But this is not the way it works, around here and in many other places. Cachers seem to think that DNF signals incompetence on their behalf when really the DNF is a great help to the CO and other cachers.

 

We have in total filed 28 DNF’s. About 25% we went back to find again, 25% got archived days after our DNF, another 25% are currently unavailable and the remaining quarter are active yet to be found by us.

 

These are all interesting numbers, I think. Especially the 25% that had NO FINDS for months before we looked for them and got archived because they were indeed missing the day after. This weekend we filed 4 DNF’s, along with 28 finds. 3 of these DNF’s had no finds for 2 to 4 months prior to our DNF, and they are all in a dense caching area where nearby caches have finds every day. I take this as a good indication of DNFobia.

 

The sad thing is that the CO has no way of knowing and fixing a missing cache, all because some cachers see it as a personal defeat to file a DNF.

 

And I think it goes deeper than that. There is really no good way to list your own DNF’s other than that one place on the site by clicking ‘Didn’t Find’. But there are no DNF stats available, GPX export and GSAK does not (to my knowledge) support DNF stats. It’s like the entire community have DNFobia in one stage or another. Some got it really bad.

 

Sooo… how do we, as a community, encourage existing and new cachers to file a DNF when it’s a DNF and make them understand that there are indeed no shame in a DNF.

 

Because, how cool is it, after filing a really annoying DNF, to go back and finally pull out that container? Some of my sweetest finds have been just like that!

Edited by lrosell
Link to comment

I think the problem lies in the wording itself. "Did Not Find" It sounds so final. Like you are never going to find it and that was your only chance - which you failed in. Perhaps if it were named something plesant sounding - like an "experience log" people would be more inclined to share their stories without feeling as if they had "failed".

Edited by StClairC
Link to comment

i used to write a log for every cache i didn't find.

 

these days with more and more caches that aren't worth the trouble i often won't bother to log a DNF. if i happen to find one of these trashcaches, the whole of my log usually consists of "found". if i'd known it was going to be that lame before i went to find it, i wouldn't have bothered.

 

i'll take a smiley for my trouble, though.

 

the only reason i log DNFs at lame caches is if something interesting happens to me while i'm there, or i take an interesting picture.

Link to comment

If I can't find it but know I'll be back within a week or so, I don't mark it DNF. BUT I also check it to see if others are finding it. If after a few day and a few tries and I still can't find it then I'll DNF it. It makes no sense to me to spend the time to enter DNFs if (1) I'm going back soon AND (2) others are finding it. That's not an ego thing, it's about having time to log every little thing.

 

I agree tho that everyone should log their DNFs if they really can't find it, have given up, won't be back for a very long time, and/or no one else is finding it either. And do not assume that "no one else is finding it" means "no one else is logging DNFs - "no one else is finding it" means "no one is logging that they found it."

 

Now I'll wait for someone to totally misinterpret what I just said ;)

Link to comment

I follow the geocaching.com guidelines for posting a DNF to the letter, and I believe everyone else does, too. What more do you want?

 

Some common sense would be nice.

 

Exhibit some. Lobby for a sensible guideline and get the community to accept it. That might help.

 

lol. did you even read my post...?

 

 

If I can't find it but know I'll be back within a week or so, I don't mark it DNF. BUT I also check it to see if others are finding it. If after a few day and a few tries and I still can't find it then I'll DNF it. It makes no sense to me to spend the time to enter DNFs if (1) I'm going back soon AND (2) others are finding it. That's not an ego thing, it's about having time to log every little thing.

 

I agree tho that everyone should log their DNFs if they really can't find it, have given up, won't be back for a very long time, and/or no one else is finding it either. And do not assume that "no one else is finding it" means "no one else is logging DNFs - "no one else is finding it" means "no one is logging that they found it."

 

Now I'll wait for someone to totally misinterpret what I just said ;)

 

That will happen, see above...

Link to comment

I follow the geocaching.com guidelines for posting a DNF to the letter, and I believe everyone else does, too. What more do you want?

 

Some common sense would be nice.

 

Exhibit some. Lobby for a sensible guideline and get the community to accept it. That might help.

This is a good suggestion. Constantly griping about it in these threads has not and will never solve anything.

 

Here is the FAQ:

 

DNF: Did Not Find. An acronym used by geocachers to state that they did not find a cache. This is also a type of online log on Geocaching.com and is useful for alerting cache owners of potential issues. Cache owners who repeatedly receive "Did Not Find" logs should check to see that there cache has not been removed.

 

The way I read this, you are supposed to log a DNF when you didn't find someone's cache and you want to alert them that it might be missing. This implies that you "really" exerted some effort and looked for it and then didn't find it. I follow this and don't alert any cache owner unless I really think a cache is really gone. If I don't think it's gone then I continue to look for it another day.

Edited by TrailGators
Link to comment

This is a good suggestion. Constantly griping out it in these threads has not and will never solve anything.

 

Here is the FAQ:

 

DNF: Did Not Find. An acronym used by geocachers to state that they did not find a cache. This is also a type of online log on Geocaching.com and is useful for alerting cache owners of potential issues. Cache owners who repeatedly receive "Did Not Find" logs should check to see that there cache has not been removed.

 

The way I read this, you are supposed to log a DNF when you didn't find someone's cache and you want to alert them that it might be missing. This implies that you "really" exerted some effort and looked for it and then didn't find it. I follow this and don't alert any cache owner unless I really think a cache gone.

 

I didn't say it wasn't good suggestion. Then again, I didn't say it was either...

 

The point is that ‘supposedly’ everyone has read the FAQ before. I have. But somehow that do not seem to help does it? Really, it’s all in attitude. From answers in this thread and in other threads on the same or similar topic one can conclude that even many long-time experienced cachers do not adhere too much to that guideline.

 

One would think that cachers with thousands of finds and tons of ‘experience’ would lead by example but that is not always the case. As for posting suggestions to how to ‘solve’ the problem sure, I can do that. But that is probably another thread and possibly in the Site Forum.

Link to comment

My "personal" rule is if it takes longer than two minutes to find a regular cache, then its either missing, not listed correctly, or coordinates are off.

 

I move on and find another. I not going to take the extra time to list it as a DNF, I can always come back later.

 

There you have it - "I", "I" and I. Not really worrying about giving the next cacher or CO an idea about something going on with a missing cache.

 

Nice...

Link to comment

This is a good suggestion. Constantly griping out it in these threads has not and will never solve anything.

 

Here is the FAQ:

 

DNF: Did Not Find. An acronym used by geocachers to state that they did not find a cache. This is also a type of online log on Geocaching.com and is useful for alerting cache owners of potential issues. Cache owners who repeatedly receive "Did Not Find" logs should check to see that there cache has not been removed.

 

The way I read this, you are supposed to log a DNF when you didn't find someone's cache and you want to alert them that it might be missing. This implies that you "really" exerted some effort and looked for it and then didn't find it. I follow this and don't alert any cache owner unless I really think a cache gone.

 

I didn't say it wasn't good suggestion. Then again, I didn't say it was either...

 

The point is that 'supposedly' everyone has read the FAQ before. I have. But somehow that do not seem to help does it? Really, it's all in attitude. From answers in this thread and in other threads on the same or similar topic one can conclude that even many long-time experienced cachers do not adhere too much to that guideline.

 

One would think that cachers with thousands of finds and tons of 'experience' would lead by example but that is not always the case. As for posting suggestions to how to 'solve' the problem sure, I can do that. But that is probably another thread and possibly in the Site Forum.

I think most people log a DNF when they think the cache is really gone. However, they may not do it if a couple of people in their group already logged a DNF for the group. Why are you convinced that this is not the case?
Link to comment

I don't think there is a remedy.

As already stated, many cachers view a DNF as simply an interrupted search...they will be back, so no need to say anything.

 

Many people these days have not been properly trained to deal with failure.

Failure is not the end.

There are worse things than failure, such as 'Did Not Try'.

 

Thomas Edison tested 'quite a few' (6,000 potential filament materials!) ways to make an electric light bulb before producing one deemed 'successful'.

 

I have 348 DNF logs. There are a few more I never logged...but not many.

In most cases I returned to post another log...a 'Found It!".

If it was a crap cache, then it's my fault...I should have known better.

Sometimes I don't go back.

Link to comment

My question is quite simple; how do we change people’s attitude towards filing a DNF?

Offer a shiny new icon in one's profile. That's the one thing that seems to do the trick.

 

Maybe the "Brave But Fruitless Attempt" stat.

Or the determined "I Shall Return!" stat.

Or maybe it could be called "Curse You, Evil Cache! You Win This Round!" stat.

 

If it has a pretty picture with it, people will try to accumulate them. ;)

Link to comment

My question is quite simple; how do we change people's attitude towards filing a DNF?

Offer a shiny new icon in one's profile. That's the one thing that seems to do the trick.

 

Maybe the "Brave But Fruitless Attempt" stat.

Or the determined "I Shall Return!" stat.

Or maybe it could be called "Curse You, Evil Cache! You Win This Round!" stat.

 

If it has a pretty picture with it, people will try to accumulate them. ;)

I bet this would work, plus it would make things more fun.
Link to comment

Some people are never going to log a DNF. There are some that have never logged one. On the opposite side, there are people who will log a DNF if they can't get to the cache because a road is closed due to a parade or something.

 

Some cachers think a DNF should only be posted when they have gone to the hide several times and are not planning on going back, but I disagree with this. If a cache has a lot of DNFs, it will substantiate that it's a difficult cache if it has a high rating, or it will let the CO know that they may need to up the difficulty if it's a low rated one. Or, if the cache is high rated and it has no DNFs, the owner may decide to lower the difficulty because it's easier than originally thought.

 

DNFs are part of the caches history and logging them gives a true account of the life of the cache.

Link to comment

I follow the geocaching.com guidelines for posting a DNF to the letter, and I believe everyone else does, too. What more do you want?

 

Some common sense would be nice.

 

Exhibit some. Lobby for a sensible guideline and get the community to accept it. That might help.

Pretty simple: If you looked for a cache you either found it or you didn't.

 

No, no "what ifs" because the sun was in your eyes or your cell phone rang or you didn't spend enough time there. All those excuses are unnecessary for the simple question of whether you found it or not.

Link to comment

Common sense says, if you didn't get out of the truck and look, it can't be a DNF since you didn't attempt to find it. One must actually search before you can't find something. A drive by isn't searching.

 

I don't use the "go to" function myself, but simply pushing a button on your GPS doesn't even remotely imply that you didn't find a cache. If you drive by the area of a cache to get a feel for the terrain to decide if and/or when you'll come back to actually do the search, that can't be a DNF either. You never looked. It was only a scouting mission. Gathering intel. Whatever you want to call it, but it certainly isn't searching.

 

I might drive by the location of a cache a couple dozen times going back and forth to work. I know the cache is there. I glance the area over, pondering how I will go about searching for the cache when I get a chance, looking at muggle activity, etc. What would be the point in logging each of those as a DNF? Waste of time and effort. And it tells the cache owner and other cachers nothing. In fact, it would probably cause more problems by over reporting false DNF's, which might make other cachers not go look as they assume it's missing due to a bunch of DNF logs.

 

Here's an example of one of my recent DNF logs. Micro cache in a skateboard park, presumably on a half-pipe ramp. Drove by the area on half a dozen different occasions while on urban caching sprees. Each time the park was occupied with skaters, so I went on to other caches. Didn't log any of those "scouting" trips by the park. Finally found the park empty one morning, so I stopped and searched. Couldn't find it. Logged it DNF online since I actually searched. A few days later, saw the park empty again, stopped and searched some more. No go. Logged a second DNF since I actually searched that time also. Found 2 other DNF logs entered between my first and second one. That is valuable info and you can tell by the logs that the other 2 folks actually got out and searched also. A half dozen drive by DNF logs would have been meaningless and misleading information.

 

Unless you actually conducted a physical search for the cache, a write note log would be more appropriate if you have some relevant info to share about your partial trip or something about the area that prohibited the search.

Link to comment

If I can't find it but know I'll be back within a week or so, I don't mark it DNF.

But you didn't find it, so why not log it that way? If you go back another day and find it make a new log that says you did.

I've done some pretty long multis that I've had to go back to finish on another day because there were so many stages. It doesn't make sense to say that I didn't find the cache when I'm still working it. The FAQ makes it very clear that they used to alert cache owners for potential issues. Why send out false alerts?
Link to comment

If I made a legitimate search for the cache, and didn't find, it becomes a DNF. A salute to the hider for their skills, or a notification that it has disappeared, whichever the case may be. And a challenge to myself to clear this one out later.

 

But if I pulled up and the parking lot is full of drinking teens, the first steps of the pathway so litter strewn that I have no desire to go further, it may well be one I never log, or visit again. I've grown tired of micros in trash dumps!

Link to comment

If I can't find it but know I'll be back within a week or so, I don't mark it DNF.

But you didn't find it, so why not log it that way? If you go back another day and find it make a new log that says you did.

I've done some pretty long multis that I've had to go back to finish on another day because there were so many stages. It doesn't make sense to say that I didn't find the cache when I'm still working it. The FAQ makes it very clear that they used to alert cache owners for potential issues. Why send out false alerts?

Ah! Multicaches are a different story. If you go to the final and search and search and eventually quit the attempt, that is a DNF. If you are running out of time and complete say 3 out of 5 legs and plan to finish the 4th and 5th leg, then you'd wait to log either Found it or DNF depending on the end result. That is how we do it. There is a local cache for us that we have stopped at 5 times in the last 4 weeks. Just can't find it, and our logs show that. I have been offered a few hints, and think that we may just be able to find it this next try. It will be great to finally find that one. I think the DNF's are making it even more fun! ;)

Link to comment

If I can't find it but know I'll be back within a week or so, I don't mark it DNF.

But you didn't find it, so why not log it that way? If you go back another day and find it make a new log that says you did.

I've done some pretty long multis that I've had to go back to finish on another day because there were so many stages. It doesn't make sense to say that I didn't find the cache when I'm still working it. The FAQ makes it very clear that they used to alert cache owners for potential issues. Why send out false alerts?

Ah! Multicaches are a different story. If you go to the final and search and search and eventually quit the attempt, that is a DNF. If you are running out of time and complete say 3 out of 5 legs and plan to finish the 4th and 5th leg, then you'd wait to log either Found it or DNF depending on the end result. That is how we do it. There is a local cache for us that we have stopped at 5 times in the last 4 weeks. Just can't find it, and our logs show that. I have been offered a few hints, and think that we may just be able to find it this next try. It will be great to finally find that one. I think the DNF's are making it even more fun! ;)

So it isn't so simple...I see challenging hides the same way. If I have not given up then I'm not not going to log that I didn't find it. This keeps with the spirit of the FAQ.
Link to comment

Ah! Multicaches are a different story. If you go to the final and search and search and eventually quit the attempt, that is a DNF. If you are running out of time and complete say 3 out of 5 legs and plan to finish the 4th and 5th leg, then you'd wait to log either Found it or DNF depending on the end result. That is how we do it. There is a local cache for us that we have stopped at 5 times in the last 4 weeks. Just can't find it, and our logs show that. I have been offered a few hints, and think that we may just be able to find it this next try. It will be great to finally find that one. I think the DNF's are making it even more fun! ;)

 

If you attempt to find the (any) cache at GZ and not come up with it its a DNF. But multi`s...........

How do you know if you are on the final? Not all CO`s will list how many stages, not all CO`s will mention it in the next to last stage. If I do post I use the note option but never mention what stage I am on.

 

How would this ever be inforced? Right now its on the honor system that you log a DNF and the really honost cachers will log them for varous reason. They are not ashamed to do so. It helps the GC community for varous reasons. Thats what it comes down to, are you a selfish or a team player. Of course they will say "I play the game the way I want".

Link to comment

My "personal" rule is if it takes longer than two minutes to find a regular cache, then its either missing, not listed correctly, or coordinates are off.

 

I move on and find another. I not going to take the extra time to list it as a DNF, I can always come back later.

 

I logged a DNF on a cache last weekend that I had in my hand. We'll, I had at least part of the cache in my hand. It was a 3 star difficulty hide which consisted of a pen that was attached to a sign with some heavy fishing line. I *suspect* that the log was actually inside the pen but I couldn't get the top off. I went back to my car to get some pliers that I thought I could use but the time I got back it was muggle city near the cache (it was at a rest stop) so I couldn't get back to the cache.

 

In this case, I didn't find the cache because I couldn't get to the log and that seemed to me to be how the difficulty was represented in the listing. The DNF told the owner that he/she had met his goals.

 

A DNF log can also inform the cache owner as well as other potential searchers of the difficulty of the find. The published listing *does* list a count of all log types. A cache that was fairly recently published nearby has 12 finds and 20 DNFs (including the 3 most recent). Based on those numbers one can tell that the 4 stars for difficulty is probably pretty accurate.

 

I always log my DNFs if I have actively searched for the cache and often find that DNF logs provide more interesting reading that Found it logs.

Link to comment

If I get to GZ and spend some time looking for the find and honestly can't find it, I log a DNF.

 

On the other hand, if I pull up to where the cache is and decide that I'm not interested in that type of search today (crowded parking lot, etc.) or am not completely prepared (forgot hiking stick, bug spray etc.) then I do not log a DNF because I don't feel that I actually tried to find the cache.

 

I don't want to log a DNF and cause the owner to have to go check on their cache because I didn't feel like giving it a good search that day. Since I'm still fairly new at this, I hope my way of handling DNF's is acceptable.

Link to comment

Changing one little word in what's posted to your "My Account" page might make a difference. Right now, when I log a DNF I see "DocDiTTo couldn't find The General (Traditional Cache)". I think it would sound much less like a personal failure if it was re-worded as "DocDiTTo didn't find The General (Traditional Cache)".

 

Using "didn't" makes it more a statement of fact that's over and done with, while "couldn't" implies that the fault was all mine. Perhaps the fault WAS mine, but do I want to be reminded of that whenever I check my account page? No. I think the word "didn't" makes it sound better.

 

Another example: If I say "You couldn't climb that tree" it's basically saying that I don't think you could do it, now or in the future. If I say "You didn't climb that tree", that has no future implication.

 

I think it's a psychological thing, and changing one word probably won't get make a huge difference in the number of DNFs logged. But removing the stigma from logging a DNF might help a little bit.

 

All that aside, I log all my DNFs.

Link to comment

One would think that cachers with thousands of finds and tons of ‘experience’ would lead by example but that is not always the case.

Hello there. I'm one of those cachers in your local area with "thousands of finds and tons of 'experience'." In fact, there's nobody in Southwest PA with more logged finds.

 

Please see the link in my forum signature line, below: "I log *all* my DNF's." Follow the link to my bookmark list, where I meticulously keep track of each and every one of them. DNF logs are fun to read.

 

I have tried my best to lead by example in this subject area for years.

Link to comment

My question is quite simple; how do we change people’s attitude towards filing a DNF?

Offer a shiny new icon in one's profile. That's the one thing that seems to do the trick.

 

Maybe the "Brave But Fruitless Attempt" stat.

Or the determined "I Shall Return!" stat.

Or maybe it could be called "Curse You, Evil Cache! You Win This Round!" stat.

 

If it has a pretty picture with it, people will try to accumulate them. ;)

 

I love that idea!! ;) People might actually take the time to write an interesting log about their fruitless search also.

Link to comment

I have to agree that it just takes some common sense. I've only been geocaching for a little over a week now. I've only found about half that I've searched for, but only logged 1 DNF. Its not that I am embarassed to log the ones that I didn't find as much as I strongly suspect my reported DNF cache is missing.

Link to comment
The sad thing is that the CO has no way of knowing and fixing a missing cache, all because some cachers see it as a personal defeat to file a DNF

 

That's a bit of an over-simplification. As a CO, I know how often my caches tend to be found and if I see a "dry spell" with no logs I pretty much assume there have been people attempting it and not finding it and not logging their DNF on the website. This really holds true when I see cachers sweep through an area and hit the surrounding caches but not log anything on my cache.

 

However, I agree with you. Too many people treat a DNF as a failure and don't log them. Other people are a little too zealous in their DNF logs, IMO. I will log my DNF IF I reach ground zero AND I get a chance to search for the cache. If muggles or other environmental factors prevent me from reaching meeting those two criteria then I will simply post a Note. I do that purely because many people will start to filter out caches that have too many DNFs in a row on them -- saddling a cache with a DNF because I couldn't find a place to park is just wrong - again, my opinion.

 

With 297 DNFs to my credit, I am not ashamed to log them. ;)

Link to comment

It mystifies me* that all of these threads on how to increase cachers' willingness to log a DNF start out by ascribing negative qualities to those who don't DNF to the poster's standard. They're afraid. They're ashamed. They lack common sense. In addition to being beside the point, these sorts of statements undercut the stated purpose, which is to persuade people to log their attempts to find a cache, successful or not.

 

We could just as easily ascribe their non-DNFs to positive qualities: They're optimistic (I'll get it next time). They're determined (I'm not giving up!). They're modest (Cache is fine; I'm just blind!).

 

Fact is that encouraging DNF logging is an uphill battle. There's no individual incentive for writing a DNF log; virtually all benefits go to the cache owner and subsequent seekers. All the DNF writer gets is an ugly blue frownie that looks like the new-age symbol for poison:

5e1bbf5e-8b4a-490b-867d-610d30650936.jpg

 

The burden lies with you who are dissatisfied with the status quo to persuade cachers to log more DNFs. My suggestion is that you first drop the casual slanders, or adopt (even insincerely) the positive interpretations of their motives in order to catch more with honey rather than vinegar. Then promote the sensible, ground-zero guideline for logging DNF. "Goto" may work for you, but it's a non-starter for most cachers; see the accumulating comments in this and other threads on the subject.

 

*Not really.

Link to comment

It mystifies me* that anyone would be so selfish to not share their experience of searching for a cache online - either found or DNF. After all, it is in the rules:

What are the rules in Geocaching?

1. If you take something from the cache, leave something of equal or greater value.

2. Write about your find in the cache logbook.

3. Log your experience at www.geocaching.com.

The purpose of the game is to log your experience online at www.geocaching.com. Failure to do so is cheating. Other cachers want to know if the last several people have found the cache or not - so that they can use GSAK to filter out caches that might not be missing because it's no fun to look for a cache which isn't there. Cache owner also rely on these logs to know if they need to do maintenance on their caches. If there are no DNF logs they don't need to maintain their caches unless a finder logs a Needs Maintenance to let them know there is some other problem like a wet log or no pencil. This whole sport is in danger of collapsing because a few selfish people are failing to follow the rules and are not logging online. While the failure to report a DNF may occur more often, failure to log finds or post a needs maintenance is also a problem. ;):wub:;)

 

*Not really.

Link to comment

It mystifies me* that all of these threads on how to increase cachers' willingness to log a DNF start out by ascribing negative qualities to those who don't DNF to the poster's standard. They're afraid. They're ashamed. They lack common sense. In addition to being beside the point, these sorts of statements undercut the stated purpose, which is to persuade people to log their attempts to find a cache, successful or not.

 

We could just as easily ascribe their non-DNFs to positive qualities: They're optimistic (I'll get it next time). They're determined (I'm not giving up!). They're modest (Cache is fine; I'm just blind!).

 

Fact is that encouraging DNF logging is an uphill battle. There's no individual incentive for writing a DNF log; virtually all benefits go to the cache owner and subsequent seekers. All the DNF writer gets is an ugly blue frownie that looks like the new-age symbol for poison:

5e1bbf5e-8b4a-490b-867d-610d30650936.jpg

 

The burden lies with you who are dissatisfied with the status quo to persuade cachers to log more DNFs. My suggestion is that you first drop the casual slanders, or adopt (even insincerely) the positive interpretations of their motives in order to catch more with honey rather than vinegar. Then promote the sensible, ground-zero guideline for logging DNF. "Goto" may work for you, but it's a non-starter for most cachers; see the accumulating comments in this and other threads on the subject.

 

*Not really.

 

Great Post! I think you nailed it!...........TOTALLY! ;)

Link to comment

It mystifies me* that anyone would be so selfish to not share their experience of searching for a cache online - either found or DNF.

 

Well, see, logging a cache is like eating ice cream. When you eat ice cream that's really good and you enjoy it, you often want to spread the word to others that you found a great flavor of ice cream. But if you went after ice cream and the ice cream store was closed, then you really didn't have anything good to say about ice cream because you didn't get any. So there's much less incentive to tell the world about your experience.

 

Same thing* with logging finds and DNFs.

 

 

 

 

*Or not.

 

;)

Link to comment

in my earlier post i think i only gave half the story. i'll try to flesh it out a little:

 

if i find a cache and it's worth my time (we do not always know if it will turn out to be worth our time when we start out to look for these things) i will write a nice log that often includes photos.

 

if i find a cache and i'm not sure what the point of it is, i will usually make a VERY brief log. if something interesting happened while i was there, i may give it a full log.

 

if i find a cache that's REALLY not worth my time, it gets a one word log, maybe two words. if something interesting happens i might attach the story to the following log.

 

if i look for a cache and don't find it, i log a DNF unless:

 

i quit my search in the middle, without exhausting the search areas i have already thought of and i intend to return soon. this is, to me, a search in progress and i log it with a note telling the story so far. typically this is what happens when i start a multi and don't get as far as the final.

 

i believe the cache to be sufficiently lame as to be not worth my time, in which case i don't log anything, although i may make an oblique reference to it in another log. if a hider thinks a good cache is a film cannister thrown into a huge rockpile with coordinates that are 70 feet off and not so much as a real parking place let alone an interesting location, i'm not giving him the satisfaction of seeing that i didn't find it.

Link to comment

It mystifies me* that all of these threads on how to increase cachers' willingness to log a DNF start out by ascribing negative qualities to those who don't DNF to the poster's standard. They're afraid. They're ashamed. They lack common sense. In addition to being beside the point, these sorts of statements undercut the stated purpose, which is to persuade people to log their attempts to find a cache, successful or not.

 

We could just as easily ascribe their non-DNFs to positive qualities: They're optimistic (I'll get it next time). They're determined (I'm not giving up!). They're modest (Cache is fine; I'm just blind!).

 

Fact is that encouraging DNF logging is an uphill battle. There's no individual incentive for writing a DNF log; virtually all benefits go to the cache owner and subsequent seekers. All the DNF writer gets is an ugly blue frownie that looks like the new-age symbol for poison:

5e1bbf5e-8b4a-490b-867d-610d30650936.jpg

 

The burden lies with you who are dissatisfied with the status quo to persuade cachers to log more DNFs. My suggestion is that you first drop the casual slanders, or adopt (even insincerely) the positive interpretations of their motives in order to catch more with honey rather than vinegar. Then promote the sensible, ground-zero guideline for logging DNF. "Goto" may work for you, but it's a non-starter for most cachers; see the accumulating comments in this and other threads on the subject.

 

*Not really.

 

Great Post! I think you nailed it!...........TOTALLY! ;)

That was a very good post. ;)
Link to comment

One would think that cachers with thousands of finds and tons of ‘experience’ would lead by example but that is not always the case.

Hello there. I'm one of those cachers in your local area with "thousands of finds and tons of 'experience'." In fact, there's nobody in Southwest PA with more logged finds.

 

Please see the link in my forum signature line, below: "I log *all* my DNF's." Follow the link to my bookmark list, where I meticulously keep track of each and every one of them. DNF logs are fun to read.

 

I have tried my best to lead by example in this subject area for years.

 

I think this is excellent. Leading by example is far more effective than bemoaning about it in the forum. A lot of what we do consciously or unconsciously is emulation in caching. It makes sense that this emulation would be more influenced by the behavior of the more active cachers in an area because their logs are seen by more cachers on average than the others.

 

As far as universal incentive, that is a tough one. Some might react to a new icon or another web enhancement but I'm not sure this is the answer. I think it boils to taking small individual steps (see post from Leprechauns above) towards building a culture of cachers that embraces all best practices. This includes things like CITO, trading up, writing more descriptive logs, places caches with a purpose and recording your DNFs.

 

For a moment, think about what you do personally to develop this culture of best practices. When was the last time you thanked someone for writing a DNF? Have you ever offered encouragement at an event or when caching in a group for recording a DNF? Are the DNFs you do write fun and interesting to read or are they just the polar cousin of a TFC log?

Link to comment

...

For a moment, think about what you do personally to develop this culture of best practices. When was the last time you thanked someone for writing a DNF? Have you ever offered encouragement at an event or when caching in a group for recording a DNF?

 

Thank-you notes are an excellent way to reward behavior you like. I've been on the sending and receiving end for creative logs, photos, volunteer maintenance, etc. and found 'em to be very effective. Good point.

 

Are the DNFs you do write fun and interesting to read or are they just the polar cousin of a TFC log?

 

TNLNDSL, TFN! ;)

Link to comment

In response to the thread topic "How do we change people's attitude..." :

 

Regular readers of these forums already know the reasons why a DNF is useful. (Whether they choose to log them then becomes a personal preference). For other people (particular newbies), I think a little education is a good thing. Sometimes people just need a different perspective about the value of DNFs to understand that a DNF isn't a badge of shame or a reason to be embarrassed.

 

Given what has already been said in this thread about the lack of incentive to post DNFs, I agree that we should never expect everyone to post every DNF but if people understand reasons why a DNF is useful at least they might spend a second to consider whether there could be be value in logging one when they fail to find a cache.

 

My favorite DNF: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...64-724226c8aef0

Link to comment

So after reading the replies on this subject one can draw the conclusion that may all is not lost. Maybe if we keep preaching the value of DNF’s or better yet; if Groundspeak would help us by lightening up the definition of a DNF. Maybe then many of the cachers that now neglect to file that pesky DNF will come around.

 

Maybe someone should post a new topic after a while “What is your best DNF?”

Link to comment

My question is quite simple; how do we change people’s attitude towards filing a DNF?

You don't. To succeed in this goal, you'd need an overall acceptance of what constitutes a "DNF". We, (as a group), can't even decide what constitutes a "Found It", so I wouldn't place much hope on gaining a consensus on the other end of the caching spectrum.

 

Our personal "rules" dictate the following: If I locate the cache, sign the log and replace it as I found it, it gets a Found It log. If I locate the cache, but can't sign it, (or if I can't complete an ALR), it gets a Note. If I can't locate the cache after starting my hunt, it gets a DNF. If my search gets interrupted, or if I see something in the immediate area that causes me to not begin my hunt, it'll get a note. Each separate hunt gets its own log, which is why my profile shows multiple DNF's on the same caches. I see it as all part of the history of the cache.

 

For the most part, I believe that since a cacher took the trouble to create the cache, I can take the trouble to log it. The exceptions are those caches so incredibly void of any creative effort that I'd rather not have such drivel in my own history. For these I just walk away.

Link to comment

My answer to the topic? You wont. Why?

 

If I can't find it but know I'll be back within a week or so, I don't mark it DNF.

But you didn't find it, so why not log it that way? If you go back another day and find it make a new log that says you did.

 

Here is an example of 2 differing logics opposed to each other. I agree with the first. You wont pursuade me into doing something simply because you have an alternate viewpoint. I'll be back to try again. If after several tries, depending on quality- Ill post it- but for no reason other than, I want to.

 

One would think that cachers with thousands of finds and tons of ‘experience’ would lead by example but that is not always the case.

Hello there. I'm one of those cachers in your local area with "thousands of finds and tons of 'experience'." In fact, there's nobody in Southwest PA with more logged finds.

 

Please see the link in my forum signature line, below: "I log *all* my DNF's." Follow the link to my bookmark list, where I meticulously keep track of each and every one of them. DNF logs are fun to read.

 

I have tried my best to lead by example in this subject area for years.

 

I appluad your efforts to keep things going in the direction you prefer. Its certainly a time investment Im guessing not everyone can make work into thier lives. Congrats on doing so, but I believe thinking that will be the norm is unreasonable.

 

It mystifies me* that all of these threads on how to increase cachers' willingness to log a DNF start out by ascribing negative qualities to those who don't DNF to the poster's standard. They're afraid. They're ashamed. They lack common sense. In addition to being beside the point, these sorts of statements undercut the stated purpose, which is to persuade people to log their attempts to find a cache, successful or not.

 

We could just as easily ascribe their non-DNFs to positive qualities: They're optimistic (I'll get it next time). They're determined (I'm not giving up!). They're modest (Cache is fine; I'm just blind!).

 

Fact is that encouraging DNF logging is an uphill battle. There's no individual incentive for writing a DNF log; virtually all benefits go to the cache owner and subsequent seekers. All the DNF writer gets is an ugly blue frownie that looks like the new-age symbol for poison:

5e1bbf5e-8b4a-490b-867d-610d30650936.jpg

 

The burden lies with you who are dissatisfied with the status quo to persuade cachers to log more DNFs. My suggestion is that you first drop the casual slanders, or adopt (even insincerely) the positive interpretations of their motives in order to catch more with honey rather than vinegar. Then promote the sensible, ground-zero guideline for logging DNF. "Goto" may work for you, but it's a non-starter for most cachers; see the accumulating comments in this and other threads on the subject.

 

*Not really.

 

^^ Very well stated and I agree.

Pushing people into something is never as easy as leading them.

 

Also- on TrailGators point, I agree- If a DNF log is meant to tell the owner or other caches the cache is or might be missing - well that is 100% why I dont post some of my DNF's. When I didnt find it - that has nothing to do with whether or not is missing.

 

No, no "what ifs" because the sun was in your eyes or your cell phone rang or you didn't spend enough time there. All those excuses are unnecessary for the simple question of whether you found it or not.

 

Says You. I prefer "to each his own" and dont care much for "Because I said so"

 

What Ive also seen is an increase, especially in newer cacher in the use of the "Needs maintenance" log on a simple Dnf? 2 finds under their belt- post something like , looked for 5 minutes- didnt find it- Must be gone.

 

Where do you suppose this is being learned?

 

Maybe trying to hard to "fit in"? I dont know- but This isnt the first thread Ive seen on this locally or nationally and I dont think it will be the last.

 

There (have been and)will always be people who truly believe THEY know what the Right way to cache is

and that everyone should play the game their way.

 

Heres a question for those folks.

 

If I find a cache online I want to seek in a very cool area, then drive all the way to that area- but choose to use the area for a different recreation, rather than looking for the cache- did I DNF, since I went to the park afterall? I mean, I was within maybe 1000ft of the cache- but went out on the lake canoing instead-

 

Obviously (to me anyway) Its not a dnf, since I did not look. Even If I had given a 2 minute run thru the area, I would feel the same way. I went canoing, and glanced around an area near a cache. Not the same - again- to Me - as checking every nook in a 30 foot radius, and not logged the same either. Id log an intnese search as a dnf tho- but not as missing, just as I didnt Find it.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Followers 4
×
×
  • Create New...