Demographics

[+Jaz666]

After the recent angst in this forum, it's high-time for an "informed debate".

 

This has crossed my mind several times over the years, but seeing so many cachers together recently has reminded me to bring it up.

Why does Geocaching in the UK attract mostly White British people?

 

From the 2001 census, 85.67% of the population of the UK describe themselves as White British, with the rest made up from Indian, Pakistani, Black Caribbean, Black African etc.

 

I spent the last ten years living in one of the most multicultural cities in the UK, but all Geocachers in my area I've ever met are White British.

We had 928 people at the 2008 Mega, so if Geocaching was a universal pastime 14.33% of attendees (133 people) should of been non-white British. There were no Asian cachers, and I can't say for certain if there were any black Caribbean/African in attendance.

 

I'd also go as far as saying Geocaching is also almost exclusively a middle-class pastime.

 

So, why?

[+Donmoore]

They are too busy doing other things?

[+Pengy&Tigger]

The 'mostly middle class' bit is fairly understandable. A certain amount of disposable income is required - gps, any other fancy gadget so desired (pda etc), fuel costs etc etc. Also a PC or some form is required, even if you are just printing off cache pages, you need to be able to get to them. Also some level of computer literacy is required - I'm guessing most middle class folks that work would need computer literacy at some degree in their jobs.

 

None of this explains the cultural issue though, so I'm at a loss there.

Edited August 13, 2008 by Pengy&Tigger

[+The Blorenges]

An interesting Topic - I don't think we've ever had this one before.

 

I'll have a bit of a think about it.

 

MrsB

[+wigglesworth]

perhaps we should ask our American cousins (!) what the cultural breakdown is of their membership?

can anyone help us?

[+studlyone]

It certainly makes you pause for thought. I'd also be interested in what the situation is t'other side of the pond. As it isn't the sort of things that Groundspeak records any data that you get will be from personal opinions. The OP certainly raises some interesting questions.........should be an interesting thread.

[+uktim]

After the recent angst in this forum, it's high-time for an "informed debate".

 

This has crossed my mind several times over the years, but seeing so many cachers together recently has reminded me to bring it up.

Why does Geocaching in the UK attract mostly White British people?

 

From the 2001 census, 85.67% of the population of the UK describe themselves as White British, with the rest made up from Indian, Pakistani, Black Caribbean, Black African etc.

 

I spent the last ten years living in one of the most multicultural cities in the UK, but all Geocachers in my area I've ever met are White British.

We had 928 people at the 2008 Mega, so if Geocaching was a universal pastime 14.33% of attendees (133 people) should of been non-white British. There were no Asian cachers, and I can't say for certain if there were any black Caribbean/African in attendance.

 

I'd also go as far as saying Geocaching is also almost exclusively a middle-class pastime.

 

So, why?

 

It's hard to judge such things on the internet but I suspect that less than 14% of the folks that I encounter on the web are "non-white british". If this is correct it will bias the figures before we even get into the specifics of diofferent activities.

[+jerryo]

<snip>...

It's hard to judge such things on the internet but I suspect that less than 14% of the folks that I encounter on the web are "non-white british". If this is correct it will bias the figures before we even get into the specifics of diofferent activities.

Why will how many people you know bias the figures?

[+kbootb]

An interesting Topic - I don't think we've ever had this one before.

 

I'll have a bit of a think about it.

 

MrsB

This topic came up a few years ago http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...49&hl=asian

 

Not sure the thread got anywhere productive at the time.

 

It seems that white middle class uk is over-represented in a number of areas. Just a quick look at the local ramblers group, the wildlife trust, bird watching, adventurous weekends such as rock climbing, caving, and it seems that it is almost exclusively UK white.

 

Certainly doesn't match the nearly 60% non UK classes I teach in my local area.

[+uktim]

<snip>...

It's hard to judge such things on the internet but I suspect that less than 14% of the folks that I encounter on the web are "non-white british". If this is correct it will bias the figures before we even get into the specifics of diofferent activities.

Why will how many people you know bias the figures?

 

It's late and I'm confused

 

What I am trying to say is that it's possible that computer ownership and internet connection are less common in the ethnic groups that the OP suggested were missing in geocaching.

[+currykev]

WHAT???????

 

What's with these stupid percentages!

Do you work for the Daily Mail?

Ridiculous thread!!!!!!!

[+Von-Horst]

Its probably a matter of perception as much as anything else. Geocaching is probably seen by most as an offshoot of rambling, which, has an image summed up by a Bengali woman here;

 

"I didn't know [about the Ramblers' Association] before, somebody said to me it was for elderly people," she said.

 

"I thought it was something you did in the countryside and it was all very English.

 

"I think that's what scares some people from ethnic minorities off, it they think it's all white people...people who can't speak English might feel left out."

 

The women say they are used to walking in the full dress

 

"It has been really stereotyped...It's good for your mind as well as your body. It's de-stressing, you meet new people - there are so many benefits."

Edited August 14, 2008 by Von-Horst

[+rutson]

That's a common misconception about the Ramblers amongst the general population. I am a member of a very active "20s and 30s" group of the Ramblers' Association.

[+Von-Horst]

I found this article about Muslim attitudes to the great outdoors quite interesting.

 

I guess the 'traditional' British attitude to the outdoors owes a lot to the Victorian/Edwardian ethos of muscular Christianity.

[+Amberel]

It seems that white middle class uk is over-represented in a number of areas.

As you say, the under-representation of other ethnic groups covers many areas, not just geocaching, and it is cultural. People naturally tend to associate in the main with others who think and behave similarly to themselves, and this makes the patterns of behaviour persist. I'm sure if you work with large groups of ethnic minorities that I'm teaching granny to suck eggs.

 

Interestingly, in recent years very large numbers of Asians have started to picnic by the Thames at Laleham at weekends, putting up huge gazebos and with massive barbecues. I guess they go there because the number doing so has reached a critical mass and they can be sure of being with others of their own culture. This suggests they have no problem with going outside for recreation, provided they remain within their own culture when doing so. This is understandable.

 

BTW, I don't like splitting hairs or being excessively PC, but I prefer to say that other groups are under-represented, rather than that white middle class are over-represented. I realise it comes down to the same thing, but "over-represented" gives the impression there is a problem and that it's caused by the "over-represented" group.

 

Rgds, Andy

Edited August 14, 2008 by Amberel

[+kbootb]

It seems that white middle class uk is over-represented in a number of areas.

 

BTW, I don't like splitting hairs or being excessively PC, but I prefer to say that other groups are under-represented, rather than that white middle class are over-represented. I realise it comes down to the same thing, but "over-represented" gives the impression there is a problem and that it's caused by the "over-represented" group.

 

Rgds, Andy

 

You picked up on my nuance. Much of my work is 'Ethnic Minority Achievement'. (Although in certain areas the Daily Mail would have a field day with which group is minority, generally across the borough UK white is still the largest single group.)

 

Anyway, some of the work is understanding perceptions of success, ambition etc. Generally most of the activities we are discussing are well established, which means white UK hold the history and the onus is on other groups to 'break through'. (as well as the incumbant group to be at least accepting, if not actively encouraging).

 

This is what makes new activities like geocaching interesting. What other factors affect the uptake? Is it association with other similar activities (geocaching/rambling)? Economic factors? Language barriers.

 

Or is it really that walking around in the rain looking for tupperware is not something to aspire to.

[+Amberel]

... Generally most of the activities we are discussing are well established, which means white UK hold the history and the onus is on other groups to 'break through'. (as well as the incumbant group to be at least accepting, if not actively encouraging).

This seems to imply it is desirable that they "break through". With geocaching, as with most other leisure activities, it doesn't matter. Anyone is free to do it if they want to, and free to not do it if they don't.

 

Indeed, the whole business of over or under representing is nonsense when it comes to choosing what people do with their leisure. There are no quotas - I would find it quite absurd for ethnic minorities to be pushed out geocaching when they would rather be doing something else, just to satisfy some political ideology.

 

Rgds, Andy

[+HazelS]

Wow - interesting thread Jamie!

 

Like Mrs B - I want to have a think about this one...

 

Part of my job is involving tenants in the work of the Housing Dept, and we have to PROVE to the audit commission that we involve tenants from all ethnicities.

 

This wouldn't be so hard if I worked for Bradford (whih is where Jamie used to live) but I work in an area with a population of less than 0.1% ethnicity other than the traditional "white British"

 

Perhaps if I look at the reasoning we use in work, and try and apply it to caching, we might get some ideas (perhaps!!!) ....

[+Simply Paul]

As it seems I was the last one to ask this question (over 3 years ago) and took a certain amount of flack for what I thought was a pretty innocent observation (how naive I was back then ) I can update a couple of my comments:

 

The Muslim Pakistani (British-Asian, is the name these days, I think) girlfriend I took caching hasn't taken it up, but we're still in contact. Today is Independence Day in Pakistan, btw.

 

I now have a regular caching buddy of mixed race. It isn't specifically the thing which makes me enjoy his company though...

 

I've taken a Chinese girl caching (not impressed) but that's about it. While I've 'done my bit', it remains a very white-centric game in the UK.

[wolfshead57]

There was some research into this subject a while ago and it came up with no real reasons why the majority of folk who do outdoor activities in this country and the U.S. are white.

 

At a American national park they reckoned less than 5% of visitors are non-white

 

I dont think it is anything sinister to tell you the truth, I just think its a case of so many things to do that what you do is what interests you. Caching is by and large a lonely activity and that suits me. I enjoy the solitude of the outdoors and am happy plodding along by myself. Maybe there are lots of Black/Asian/Hippy cachers but they dont attend events and just get on and do it. Same as camping, walking, swimming etc.

 

Maybe by trying to prove we are inclusive makes it exclusive

[+schnarff]

I dont think that this observation is limited to geocaching - as a keen biker I rarely see ethnic minorities on either scooters or motorcyles - and I work in a multi-cultural city. I think its a phenomenon caused by cultural and upbringing differences.

 

Of my "Asian" friends I believe that there are key cultural differences. Many of them find the bulk of their free time spent with either their family, at their place of worship or both. This leaves them very little other time and that will be spent doing things like going to the cinema, the gym etc. Whereas I believe "whites" on the whole are a lot less family orientated or religious - before you all shoot me down in flames on that point I am aware that its a sweeping statement that many of you will disagree with but do you have to go to your place of worship every day?

 

Of my "black" friends whilst on the whole they are not as different on the family and religious front, they tend to spend all their time playing football & cricket, socialising and making or listening to music.

 

As a side note I actually saw both black and asian people at the Mega Event

 

Schnarff

[+sssss]

oh god its like work here now.

 

so what is the breakdown of visible ethnic minorities (or whatever this months current jargon is)

 

next we will have the topic,

 

so how do we encourage more VEM's

 

followed by

 

we need to have some positive discrimination to allow for an increase in VEM's

 

guess we should also include a topic about cachers who are restricted by the glass ceiling,

 

sssss going for lie down as its not work a day so does not need to worry about this till tomorrow

Edited August 14, 2008 by sssss

[SlytherinAlex]

perhaps we should ask our American cousins (!) what the cultural breakdown is of their membership?

can anyone help us?

I'm white/british... but not for long

[+The Hornet]

Colour? Nationality? Gender? TBH I don't give a d.amn. As long as someone has a GPS and likes hunting for hidden containers they're all right in my book.

[+Geo.Kitten]

tupperware!!! hunting tupperware!! is all thats important to me

[+Simply Paul]

Colour? Nationality? Gender? TBH I don't give a d.amn. As long as someone has a GPS and likes hunting for hidden containers they're all right in my book.

You forgot to add '...and doesn't steal the ammo can, make rubbish swaps/pinch the contents, leave a body fluid or solid in the box or thinks a geocoin is a swap item.'

 

Btw, sssss, I don't think there is no such thing as positive discrimination. It just means to discriminate against someone else. (Not that you're saying anything about it either way, just highlighting it as a snappy little phrase getting into common usage)

[+Renegade Knight]

It certainly makes you pause for thought. I'd also be interested in what the situation is t'other side of the pond....

 

It's the same. It tends to be middle/working class, but poor white trash* also cache so it's not entirly income based. The best explanation I've read (though it's ancetodal) was that other races were much more concerned with appearences than whites and would not be caught dead doing something so freaking dorky. That's a paraphrase.

 

In general it's what we consider western civilization that takes to caching. Folks with roots outside that larger idea of european rooted civilization tend to be non white. There are caches and cachers everywhere, but they tend to be predominant in the mythical western world.

 

Some folks in the USA debates have concluded that there must be racism, but since the cache page, the comptuer, the internet, and the cache itself don't care the real answer is somewhere else.

 

*My roots are showing

Edited August 14, 2008 by Renegade Knight

[+ClareLouise]

I'd also go as far as saying Geocaching is also almost exclusively a middle-class pastime.

 

Working class by background, income and circumstances, and proud!

 

My first GPS was VERY cheap and second hand, my current one was a very generous gift. I genuinely don't go caching sometimes when I'd like to as I can't afford the train fare... But it doesn't really hold me back!

[+Renegade Knight]

...It seems that white middle class uk is over-represented in a number of areas. ....

So what are the areas that they are under-represented in? That's apparently what everone else is doing when they aren't caching.

[+scottpa100]

Interesting thread - but I think it will just be the outdoor thing mainly. I've said in other threads about reading Trail magazine. Every now again Trail will have an article about how X outdoorsey charity is trying to increase the number of ethnic minority people who go and enjoy the big outdoors.

 

The most ethnically diverse mountain I've been on is Snowdon but that I think is because of the mountain it is. The highest point in England and Wales. And on that mountain you do see a lot of Asian families walking up especially in the summer months and its great to see. I'll mever forget seeing a South-Asian man with the full long shaped beard, the long black flowing robey / clothes (excuse my ignorance, I don't know what they're called) and then calling someone on a mobile and then, in a thick Brummie accent asking, "Guess where I am?"

 

Indeed on Snowdon you do see Asian group leaders taking groups of Asian youths up the hill. And this I always assume is a youth group / city education funded thing because I never see huge groups of ethnic minorities on other mountains in Snowdonia. If they were 'walking' groups, they'd be on other mountains.

 

I'm with Pengy&Tigger on this one about levels of education and income etc. I know we all feel hard done by and we all live month to month because its natural to live to our means but report after report clearly demonstrates that higher percentages of people from ethnic minorities live in inner-city areas on low incomes. If I lived in a high rise tower block and struggling to pay my gas bill, I'd have other concerns other than hunting butty boxes in hedges...

[The Birches Head Hunters]

This is a great thread, and it got me thinking about caching globally.

 

I've chosen some random locations in the middle(ish) of the following countries, so see what kind of cache density there is. I then asked for the number of caches hidden within 1000 miles of these locations:-

 

Bangui, Africa - 25 caches

Lanzhou, China - 84 caches

Bhopal, India - 118 caches

Ar Riyad, Saudia Arabia - 979 caches

Marple, England - 168,753 caches

Minneapolis, USA - 223,440 caches

 

I'm not clever enough to apply any reasonable thoughts to the above data or explain how it relates to the original posting; but I find it quite interesting all the same!

[+HazelS]

If I lived in a high rise tower block and struggling to pay my gas bill, I'd have other concerns other than hunting butty boxes in hedges...

 

Yep - I'm with Scott on the low income thing, but I'm still pondering the ethnicity...

 

I think I'll go with Scnarff's theory on cultural differences... Although I did speak to a muslim friend of mine this afternoon about why wouldn't she go caching and she said that it's just not something that interests her... same as the three "White British" women I asked too...

 

So - my theory is....

Err... cos that's just the way it is, don't try and analyse it too much, just get out there and enjoy it!

[+careygang]

This is a great thread, and it got me thinking about caching globally.

 

I've chosen some random locations in the middle(ish) of the following countries, so see what kind of cache density there is. I then asked for the number of caches hidden within 1000 miles of these locations:-

 

Bangui, Africa - 25 caches

Lanzhou, China - 84 caches

Bhopal, India - 118 caches

Ar Riyad, Saudia Arabia - 979 caches

Marple, England - 168,753 caches

Minneapolis, USA - 223,440 caches

 

I'm not clever enough to apply any reasonable thoughts to the above data or explain how it relates to the original posting; but I find it quite interesting all the same!

 

How about...

Africa - the Central African Republic is one of the poorest places going, As one UNDP official put it, the CAR is a country "sous serum," or a country metaphorically hooked up to an IV, so probably placed by western contractors looking for some weekend activity..

 

China - Lanzhou is a major city, so possibly western contractors, corporations etc?

 

Bhopal - hard to say, possibly colonial influences...

 

Saudi - very likely Western contractors or US Military!

 

UK and USA - enough said.

 

 

Edited as I just realised you put 1000 mile radius on that search, which in the case of CAR, takes in several neighbouring countries, several of which have oil fields, so almost certainly Western Oil workers!

Edited August 15, 2008 by careygang

[WashoeZephyr]

It's the same. It tends to be middle/working class, but poor white trash* also cache so it's not entirly income based. The best explanation I've read (though it's ancetodal) was that other races were much more concerned with appearences than whites and would not be caught dead doing something so freaking dorky.

I think your on to something here! Sometimes, to add to my own general dorkiness (like I need any help), I wear a fishing vest that has all my caching gear in it.

 

I'd never really given it much thought, but the demo's seem to be similar in the US.

Interesting topic.

Edited August 15, 2008 by LostinReno

[+qrang]

I think it's a cultural thing.

 

As a previous logger said, image is very important to many cultures and tupperware boxes are hardly cool.

 

Think it's the same reason that there are fewer caches and cachers in Mediterranean countries, whilst Northern Europe is stuffed full of them.

[+Haggis Hunter]

I'd also go as far as saying Geocaching is also almost exclusively a middle-class pastime.

I have wondered why I didn't fit in properly? I'm working class and proud of it

[+Foinavon]

I'd also go as far as saying Geocaching is also almost exclusively a middle-class pastime.

I have wondered why I didn't fit in properly? I'm working class and proud of it

 

I beleive the actual definition of working class is someone who doesn't own the means of production so they have to sell their labour for wages. I think that makes 99.99999& of geocachers working class.

[reelcutter]

Born in a cardboard box me!

Blue collar well green really and I find being called white trash offensive.

[+Rosie's Rangers]

You were lucky. We lived for three months in a paper bag in a septic tank.

[+Simply Paul]

Septic tank? You had it lucky. We used to dream of having our own septic tank. We shared a rotting hedgehog with three other families- and we were grateful... etc.

 

(As a journalist I own my own means of production (it's a pen), so am I one of the 0.00001%? If so, hooray for me )

[+Haggis Hunter]

I'd also go as far as saying Geocaching is also almost exclusively a middle-class pastime.

I have wondered why I didn't fit in properly? I'm working class and proud of it

 

I beleive the actual definition of working class is someone who doesn't own the means of production so they have to sell their labour for wages. I think that makes 99.99999& of geocachers working class.

Ah, but Middle class which is what was referred to is a different class to Working class, which in definition is one rung lower on the social ladder.

 

So are geocachers generally middle or working class? I'm still in the working class bracket, and still proud of it but most of the friends I have made through Geocaching are most definitely in the middle class and I am happy to call them all friends.

[+Cushie Butterfield]

oh god its like work here now.

 

AARRRRGGGGGHHHH nooooooooooooo

not more diversity training

[+Cushie Butterfield]

I think it's a cultural thing.

 

As a previous logger said, image is very important to many cultures and tupperware boxes are hardly cool.

 

Think it's the same reason that there are fewer caches and cachers in Mediterranean countries, whilst Northern Europe is stuffed full of them.

 

After 10 days in Crete in 40º heat it's too hot to go caching! Any gadgets there are very expensive and not readily available so I don't think it is as accessible as here in the UK. Most of the caches I looked at in Crete were set by foreigners. I did bookmark a few to look for but decided to lie on the beach instead

[+vw_k]

I don't think it's income based, I know plenty of "working class" people, both white and non white, who could easily afford a GPSr and who have internet access at home and/or at work. But they choose to spend the same amount of money (or more) as I spend on caching on other pastimes, sports, drinking, DVDs, their car etc etc.

 

I've noticed the same thing in another hobby of mine, banger racing. While you see plenty of non white people interested in cars, not many are seen in motorsport or the motor trade.

 

In cities where there is greater cultural and ethnic diversity you see alot of different ethnicities participating in certain "urban" pastimes (music, BMX, skateboarding, football, cricket), perhaps pastimes like geocaching which could be viewed as more "countryside" based suffer from being practiced in more rural areas where there is less cultural diversity?