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FTF question for the experienced


Scubasonic

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Well today 2 Caches popped up on the site in my area, so I rushed out and found them both but when I went to sign the log there was already a Cacher that signed the log saying he found it on 8/6. Here is the deal since he was a buddy of the guy that hide the Cache he gave him the COORDS and he found it before it went LIVE on the site today the 8/11 who really was the fist to find.

 

BTW- there was nothing in the post saying that the FTF was gone since he had given the coordinates to his friend 5 days before it was posted on the site. :D

 

What says you

 

Scubasonic

Edited by Scubasonic
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Well today 2 Caches popped up on the site in my area, so I rushed out and found them both but when I went to sign the log there was already a Cacher that signed the log saying he found it on 8/6. Here is the deal since he was a buddy of the guy that hide the Cache he gave him the COORDS and he found it before it went LIVE on the site today the 8/11 who really was the fist to find.

 

BTW- there was nothing in the post saying that the FTF was gone since he had given the coordinates to his friend 5 days before it was posted on the site. :D

 

What says you

 

Scubasonic

He was a betatester

You are the FTF

 

A betatester is a cacher that goes along and gets the coords ahead of time so he can still log a find without having to go back to the area after the cache is published. But he does not get to claim FTF.

 

Congrats

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You would get the official FTF honors. The friend that was with the hider usually logs as a "beta tester". When we hide caches as a group, any beta testers with the group are asked to hold their logs until the cache is FTFed. That way you get the honors of having the first log and we post date our logs after yours.

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You would get the official FTF honors. The friend that was with the hider usually logs as a "beta tester". When we hide caches as a group, any beta testers with the group are asked to hold their logs until the cache is FTFed. That way you get the honors of having the first log and we post date our logs after yours.

 

Well from what I understand he was not with the hider when the hider placed the Cache the Hider I think simply called him and said hey I just hid a Cache here are the coordinates if you want to get to it before anyone else.

 

Scubasonic

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Well from what I understand he was not with the hider when the hider placed the Cache the Hider I think simply called him and said hey I just hid a Cache here are the coordinates if you want to get to it before anyone else.

 

Scubasonic

Well, in the true definition of an FTF, they would get it since they were first to find it. However in the spirit of the game, most of us don't count FTF finds if the cache listing isn't live on the GC.com site. Everybody likes to play this game their own way, so I wouldn't make a huge issue about it. Claim your FTF and move on.

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You would get the official FTF honors. The friend that was with the hider usually logs as a "beta tester". When we hide caches as a group, any beta testers with the group are asked to hold their logs until the cache is FTFed. That way you get the honors of having the first log and we post date our logs after yours.

 

OK I got it I will log it as a FTF, and see what happens

 

SS

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In the end, though, who cares? You found the cache. That pretty good in its own right.

 

I have a slew of FTFs -- and a bunch of them have come with the cache out for a week or more. It's kind of cool to get them, but if someone has already signed the log -- I don't care what the date is -- I'm not the FTF.

 

Just my two cents.

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...who really was the fist to find.

 

The person who found it first. If there was a signature in the logbook before yours, then you are second to find.

 

Not long after I started, early one morning (~6:30am) got e-mail saying a new one (of a series that was being planted) had come out the night before. Not far from my home (2.2 miles) - I went after the FTF. Out the back door & it was raining (had just woke up & didn't know). Anyway, got to the site....and sat there in the now pouring rain for about 20-25 minutes waiting for the rain to slack off. GPSr was pointing straight off left of my vehicle....40' away, & I saw only possible host object. I was parked in open field of ankle-deep mud. Rain finally let up, & I made a dash for it - Bingo! Checked my watch as I always do on finding - 7:21am. Opened container....FTF on the log had been signed at - ya ready for this? - 7:17am.

 

Not a single tire-print nor foot print in the mud other'n my own....only vehicles within seeing distance were the few passing by on the road 50-yards to my right....and of course none of 'em had stopped. And that log sheet was perfectly dry.

 

I found out a few days later the "FTF-er" was the cacher's brother. He had also FTF'd the 10 prior caches in that series that had been coming out over the preceding several days.

 

Yep. I was 2nd to find, awright. Kinda hard to find first when the container's planted with the log already signed!

 

~*

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Well today 2 Caches popped up on the site in my area, so I rushed out and found them both but when I went to sign the log there was already a Cacher that signed the log saying he found it on 8/6.

I think that you just answered your own question. You can slice and dice it how you like but you can't change the fact that someone found the cache before you. If someone found the cache before you, then you can't have been first. They were first, you were not.

 

At the end of the day, what difference does it make how many people found the cache before you? Say a log was posted to the website whilst you were out looking for the cache. Would the posting that you didn't see somehow have affected the experience you had already received that same day?

 

FTF isn't an "official" Geocaching thing. If you get to be the first to find the cache, well that's great. If someone else found it before you, then that's life.

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I think some of y'all are missing the OP's point, which might have better been worded as 'Is it kosher if a cache hider gives you the coordinates before the cache is published to run out and claim FTF on the unpublished cache'.

 

I wouldn't.

 

I don't think it's kosher, but as with other screwy things that people come up with, i don't lose any sleep over it.

 

It's kinda like having caches held until the day of an event where the event attendeess are the only ones who know about the caches and can therefore be the only ones to claim an ftf. I still haven't figured out why doing it this way is fun for people...

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I'm not losing any sleep about it at all, just new to this and trying to figure out what is fair play and what is not.....this just kinda smacks as "Insider trading" just seems like the Hider should have put in his post "No FTF on this Cache is available" so everyone knows going out. No big deal

 

Scubasonic

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I think some of y'all are missing the OP's point, which might have better been worded as 'Is it kosher if a cache hider gives you the coordinates before the cache is published to run out and claim FTF on the unpublished cache'.

 

I wouldn't.

 

FTF is a simple fact. It's not something to be claimed or awarded. I've been given coords pre-publishing for several caches and was the first to find them. Nothing wrong with that. It's nobody else's business but the owner's how and when he releases the coords for his caches.

 

Even though I was the first to find those caches, I'm not going to brag about it in my log because that would be absurd and if there is a gift for the FTF I think it would be cheesy to take it, but it doesn't change the fact that the next person to find the cache is the second to find.

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I think some of y'all are missing the OP's point, which might have better been worded as 'Is it kosher if a cache hider gives you the coordinates before the cache is published to run out and claim FTF on the unpublished cache'.

 

I wouldn't.

 

I don't think it's kosher, but as with other screwy things that people come up with, i don't lose any sleep over it.

 

It's kinda like having caches held until the day of an event where the event attendeess are the only ones who know about the caches and can therefore be the only ones to claim an ftf. I still haven't figured out why doing it this way is fun for people...

 

To me, that's totally different than someone giving coords to a buddy before the cache is published. People reward the group that attends the event with the new permanent caches.

 

As for the "and can therefore be the only ones to claim an ftf."

 

In the end, again, who cares? I've had a bunch of FTFs. Is it neat? Sure. I don't go rushing out to get them though. I did that once -- kind of. When one came out several months ago, I made sure to go find that one the day it came out. It was my first FTF and I wanted to have one.

 

Since then, I've had a bunch more. Most have come the day or two -- or more -- after the cache has been placed. It's neat to have, but it's not life or death. If you want a chance at an FTF at an event -- go to the event and get the coords. If not, it's all part of how the game is played by some.

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I went to go visit somebody and saw him leaving with an ammo box in hand.

<STEALTH MODE>

I followed him, saw him go under a bridge, waited for him to leave and claimed FTF.

Maybe it ain't fair but was fun and funny! And I would expect others to do it to me if they think they are slick enough.

As far as I'm concerned, FTF is FTS at the caches intended location period end of quote.

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In the end, again, who cares?

 

There have been comments like "who cares" or "so what", etc. to being "first to find." As for who cares, that's up each individual cacher. The OP was not asking whether or not s/he should or should not CARE about being the first to find. For some reason, if someone expresses a question like this here, people jump at the chance to make a mountain out of a molehill. Even the OP stated

I'm not losing any sleep about it at all
.

 

In my humble opinion, I think "pre-signed" logs aren't in the spirit of geocaching. I've had a friend "beta test" my coordinates and I didn't let her sign the log for FTF. I let it be open for real hunting once it was an "official geocache" by being published...everyone on an equal playing field.

 

And to Star*Hopper...I totally understand your feelings. You were going for a FTF and put some effort into that and endured miserable conditions to achieve it. I'd be disappointed too.

 

Personally, I want to find and sign a log fair and square. I don't want special favors beforehand from a friend or relative before anyone else even has a chance.

 

Even if I had the ability to be the FTFer on every single cache as soon as its published, I wouldn't. A couple of fun times signing a clean log and I'd "step aside" and give others, especially newbies, a chance at them. I was reared not to be greedy. I think being first to find is something newbies initially find fun and after a while its such not a big thing--you just want to have the fun of hunting. I'd get a big smile if I'm ever the FTFer, but I'm happy just to find the dang cache and have a log to sign at all! :D

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I've seen a number of logs in my area where the person logged the cache a day or two after others have found it and, in their logs, stated that they were with the hider when the cache was placed or that they beta tested the cache. NONE of them has ever claimed the FTF and I don't believe they have signed the log in advance - they may not have signed the log at all but they did "find" the cache. In this area the cache becomes "fair game" when it is published.

 

I'm a weirdo FTF buff. I love being FTF. However, I don't log caches I get advance notice about. I let someone else find it first. It only seems "fair" to me.

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I like being FTF, though I can't explain exactly why. I know I don't get a prize (except once). And, if someone has already found the cache, that generally does not make it easier for me to find. It is not like the cache gets worn out so a subsequent find is less important-- especially for those of us who TNLNSL.

 

My kid suggested abandoning the designation FTF and instead use: "FTIFI". It stands for "First Time I Found It."

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I've seen a number of logs in my area where the person logged the cache a day or two after others have found it and, in their logs, stated that they were with the hider when the cache was placed or that they beta tested the cache. NONE of them has ever claimed the FTF and I don't believe they have signed the log in advance - they may not have signed the log at all but they did "find" the cache. In this area the cache becomes "fair game" when it is published.

 

I'm a weirdo FTF buff. I love being FTF. However, I don't log caches I get advance notice about. I let someone else find it first. It only seems "fair" to me.

 

I don't understand why someone that beta tested a cache or was with the owner when it was placed should *ever* sign the physical log book. What's the point? However, if someone beta tested a cache after being provided the coordinates or prior access to a puzzle for the coordinates I see no reason why they shouldn't log a smiley *after* the cache is published, as long as they only used the same available to information to those that found it after it was published.

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Some of us get a buzz from being a genuine FTF'er. Driving to the site wondering if you are going to beat the other person who is already on his way.

 

The thing which sums up this whole debate for me is simply that if someones brother or friend has been tipped off before it's published, it just spoils it for the rest of us who have done our best and then don't have a chance.

Edited by Fuchsiamagic
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I have been first to a cache after it was published only to find that someone had found it before publishing it. I don't log FTF if that happens, someone beat me to it and was first. The exception would be if the first cacher specifically stated that he was not claiming FTF. After all, there is no official FTF. I consider the first person to be first unless they say they are leaving it for the first person after it's published.

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The thing which sums up this whole debate for me is simply that if someones brother or friend has been tipped off before it's published, it just spoils it for the rest of us who have done our best and then don't have a chance.

 

There are no guarantees in life,or in geocaching.

 

As has been brought up many many times, geocaching itself is not a game where a winner is crowned. However, there are aspects of the activity that can be competitive, and for many, "the ftf race" is one of these aspects. The way i see it, this falls into the "game" category and needs to consist of at least one or two basic common sense rules and/or guidelines. In this case, these aren't written down anywhere but it seems obvious that a person who plays this ftf game would at least wait until the cache is published before going after it. I just don't understand how it can be fun for someone to brag (in a cache log) that they're the winner (ftf) if they found the cache before anyone else even knew about it?

 

Of course you're right in that, even if people did use common sense, there still would be no guarantees in life or geocaching.

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I'm not losing any sleep about it at all, just new to this and trying to figure out what is fair play and what is not.....this just kinda smacks as "Insider trading" just seems like the Hider should have put in his post "No FTF on this Cache is available" so everyone knows going out. No big deal

 

Scubasonic

"No FTF on this Cache is available"...even that doesn't matter in some areas. I know of a couple cachers in the area that have First-to-Finds but do not post on the cache page until after it has been found by other cachers...I should know, I am one of them :):):) (Just my way of having fun with the FTF Hounds...it is especially great when the cache goes unfound for a couple days...a buddy then asks about going on First-to-Find run only to see my name already there and for a while...has happened a couple times now...priceless :):):D ) My actual First-to-Finds are more about coincidence then actually trying to be the First-to-Find...Unless the cache is extremely close to me, I really don't rush out to get them...

 

Beta...I have been a beta-tester a couple of times...when I first started caching, I claimed a First-to-Find (newbie syndrom)...but now, if I beta-test, I make a note in the log-book and be sure to state the First-to-Find is still up for grabs explaining I was a test-subject!!! Then, I will not log the find until a couple people have logged their find and the First-Finder is clear...but that is only my preference...

Edited by ArcherDragoon
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Well from what I understand he was not with the hider when the hider placed the Cache the Hider I think simply called him and said hey I just hid a Cache here are the coordinates if you want to get to it before anyone else.

 

Scubasonic

Well, in the true definition of an FTF, they would get it since they were first to find it. However in the spirit of the game, most of us don't count FTF finds if the cache listing isn't live on the GC.com site. Everybody likes to play this game their own way, so I wouldn't make a huge issue about it. Claim your FTF and move on.

 

I have claimed FTF on several caches that weren't published on gc yet. Here is why. They were all caches placed by the Kansas Wildlife and Parks. Their coords were posted on the KDWP website for all to see when announcing the game. It took the WP awhile to get them all registered with GC, so there were several that had been found, some by non-gc members, prior to publishing. Of course, I think the difference in this scenario to the one above is that these coords were released to the public, so everyone had a fair shot at it.

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Well today 2 Caches popped up on the site in my area, so I rushed out and found them both but when I went to sign the log there was already a Cacher that signed the log saying he found it on 8/6. Here is the deal since he was a buddy of the guy that hide the Cache he gave him the COORDS and he found it before it went LIVE on the site today the 8/11 who really was the fist to find.

 

BTW- there was nothing in the post saying that the FTF was gone since he had given the coordinates to his friend 5 days before it was posted on the site. :laughing:

 

What says you

 

Scubasonic

 

OK, so the log was already signed when you arrived.

That means someone else was FTF.

What about the all-important First To Log Online? (FTLO)

 

I hope for your sake you got the FTLO.

GC.com does not have any way to track who's name is first in the logbook, but they darned sure know who was FTLO.

 

I probably shouldn't bring this up, but has anyone noticed the tenth anniversary of Geocaching is fast approaching?

Did you think that date would pass without the celebration of the first ULTRA-MEGA event?

I know I will probably catch hell from Vinny for even mentioning this stuff, but I just can't hold it in any longer.

I am not at liberty to reveal too many details, but there will be quite the prize giveaway at this ULTRA-MEGA event.

 

Palatial new homes, luxury vehicles, deluxe geocaching world-tour vacations!

 

While the final breakdown has yet to be determined, it is almost certain that nearly everything will be broken down regionally or by State (or comparable political division).

 

There is definitely a big push to get 'Most FTLO' in as one of the award categories.

 

If I were you, I would make it a point to maximize my FTLOs.

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Well today 2 Caches popped up on the site in my area, so I rushed out and found them both but when I went to sign the log there was already a Cacher that signed the log saying he found it on 8/6. Here is the deal since he was a buddy of the guy that hide the Cache he gave him the COORDS and he found it before it went LIVE on the site today the 8/11 who really was the fist to find.

 

BTW- there was nothing in the post saying that the FTF was gone since he had given the coordinates to his friend 5 days before it was posted on the site. :rolleyes:

 

What says you

 

Scubasonic

 

Someone beat Scuba to a cache, awe well. He can't be first all the time.

 

Let's all "play fairly". Try at least.

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...Well, in the true definition of an FTF, they would get it since they were first to find it. However in the spirit of the game, most of us don't count FTF finds if the cache listing isn't live on the GC.com site. Everybody likes to play this game their own way, so I wouldn't make a huge issue about it. Claim your FTF and move on.

 

That about sums it up.

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"No FTF on this Cache is available"...even that doesn't matter in some areas. I know of a couple cachers in the area that have First-to-Finds but do not post on the cache page until after it has been found by other cachers...I should know, I am one of them"

I bet you think it is fun to pass gas in a crowded elevator too. :rolleyes:

 

I don't go for first to finds myself, and the only ones I have gotten are somewhat remote, and had been published for a few days. However, I would never consider messing with those that find that part of this game fun.

 

It is one thing to be slack in logging in general and just not getting around to logging, even a first to find. But doing it to spoil the fun of those that like a different aspect of this game than you is just rude.

Edited by uxorious
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It is one thing to be slack in logging in general and just not getting around to logging, even a first to find. But doing it to spoil the fun of those that like a different aspect of this game than you is just rude.

 

How is that rude or spoiling the fun? Isn't the fun in rushing out the door, pulse racing, hoping to beat the other FTF hounds? Quickly solving the puzzle, or figuring out the quickest way to the cache? Slogging through the snow or mud or rain?

 

Part of the risk of running out for a FTF is not knowing if someone beat you to the punch. If you can't deal with the fact that someone got there first, stay home and don't rush out. It's that simple.

 

Personally, I think the people who log a FTF from GZ via their cellphone are taking the fun out of it for others. You're about to head out the door, hoping to grab the FTF, when you see the notice of a new Found It log. I suspect most people at that point abandon the FTF hunt, and wait until it is convenient.

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It is one thing to be slack in logging in general and just not getting around to logging, even a first to find. But doing it to spoil the fun of those that like a different aspect of this game than you is just rude.

 

How is that rude or spoiling the fun? Isn't the fun in rushing out the door, pulse racing, hoping to beat the other FTF hounds? Quickly solving the puzzle, or figuring out the quickest way to the cache? Slogging through the snow or mud or rain?

 

Part of the risk of running out for a FTF is not knowing if someone beat you to the punch. If you can't deal with the fact that someone got there first, stay home and don't rush out. It's that simple.

 

Personally, I think the people who log a FTF from GZ via their cellphone are taking the fun out of it for others. You're about to head out the door, hoping to grab the FTF, when you see the notice of a new Found It log. I suspect most people at that point abandon the FTF hunt, and wait until it is convenient.

There's a definite difference between the possibility of a FTF spoiled by timing of a log because of getting to a computer and deliberately withholding a log to fool people into thinking a FTF is still possible.

 

The former is a fact of the game, the latter is just someone being cruel for their own amusement or pleasure. Can you say masochist? I knew you could.

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You would get the official FTF honors. The friend that was with the hider usually logs as a "beta tester". When we hide caches as a group, any beta testers with the group are asked to hold their logs until the cache is FTFed. That way you get the honors of having the first log and we post date our logs after yours.

 

Well from what I understand he was not with the hider when the hider placed the Cache the Hider I think simply called him and said hey I just hid a Cache here are the coordinates if you want to get to it before anyone else.

 

Scubasonic

I have done something similar I think. A cache of mine was published before i coukd get the container up and running, which was my own fault mostly. I finally got it done but I gave FTF to a caching couple whom I know who had searched for about two hours. I told them it was there and I was saving FTF for them specifically because I felt sorry for them because they had searched for two hours for a container that wasn't there. Then after they found it I enabled the cache again. Is that legal to do stuff like that for cachers occasionally? Anyway, thanks and have a great day. gwf :ph34r::unsure::rolleyes::ph34r:

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To me, you know when you are a FTF or not no matter what the numbers say. If you are only going for FTF maybe you should look at another hobby. If it really gets to you just exclude his caches. I must admit I do not have that many FTFs, but still love finding an usigned log book, make my heart (if I had one) skip a beat.

Cache on - Steve

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I have been the first to sign a log a fair number of times in my quest for instant gratification, but it really is a matter of timing, geography, and personal circumstances. These things are nothing to get too excited about. So I never use FTF in a log and don't keep track of the number that I have found first. (I will occasionally put FFRTFAWWAD if the cacher in front of me has been particularly excited about being there first.) But since you can play the game any way you want, I recognize that there are some people who place great importance upon the three initials. So if I beta test a cache, I sign the log below and not log it online until a few others have found it.

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I had one sent to me and a few others, before it was officially posted.. the placer sent me the URL for the cache, which was still in limbo for the weekend, the previous Friday. It was a multi-stage meant to be found at dusk. Ironic, I had found the area of the 2nd stage previously, following trails in the area, searching for another cache they had placed. I never did find the final.. In fact, a whole week went by, and between me & another cacher, we both gave-up.. 1 week, and 2 days after it was officially published, someone else found it.

 

In the 2+ years I've been a geocacher, I've FTF'ed 6 now. You simply need to keep an eye on the newest in your state link, and see what's close and hasn't been logged.. That doesn't always guarantee you'll be

the 1st, as some will find, log on site, but won't make the log entry online til upwards 2-3 days later. I've even seen some caches, where someone logs it in the book, but NEVER logs it online. Go figure?

 

I've met a few cachers this way too.. The GPSr is a tell-tale giveaway.

 

Stephen (gelfling6)

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I'm not losing any sleep about it at all, just new to this and trying to figure out what is fair play and what is not.....this just kinda smacks as "Insider trading" just seems like the Hider should have put in his post "No FTF on this Cache is available" so everyone knows going out. No big deal.

The whole "FTF" thing is not a part of geocaching; it is a game some people choose to play within geocaching, but it is not official nor is it particularly helpful to geocaching as a whole.

 

Call yourself FTF. Or not. Who cares?

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Around here the gentleman's rules are that if you have prior knowledge of the hide, you may sign the log (at the bottom or back of page 1 usually, with the note 'Beta Tester') but you don't log the find until the first player who finds it after publication logs it, but when you do log you note that it was as a beta-tester. That way players who run PQ's for unfound caches or get alerts for new caches can still have their fun and you still get a smiley, which is what the OP wanted. IMHO the FTF ought to go to the first player to find it after publication. If a player logged an unpublished cache or logged before publication, as a cache owner I would happily disqualify and delete their log as being out of bounds and unfair. My cache, my rules. YMMV.

Edited by Triple Crown
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