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Religious material in caches


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I don't believe the Christian church is an evil incarnate. I believe all religions who persecute non-believers are going against their purpose, including the ones who kill those who don't go along with it. I'm saying the Christian church is one of the biggest examples of repeated persecution to nonbelievers, and the persecution is very WIDELY accepted. I personally cannot compare the Christian church's persecutions to those of a small-area religious government persecuting non-believing revolutionaries who could change the government with a big enough group. (And help from outside groups they may contact.) They don't get a pass, they just can't compare because they don't affect a wide enough area, or as many people as Christianity had and they weren't even a part of this discussion until you wanted to argue about them. These countries don't send missionaries to different parts of the world to convert them to their beliefs. I'm not saying what they are doing is right, it's just no one has been able to stand up to them in the way it needs to be done, which is NOT war.

I don't think this is a discussion about war. You said the the Christian church was the only church to condemn people. Now it is just that they are the biggest so the others aren't important enough to mention. SPIN. Calling the church the government, thereby making it a political persecution just does not hold water.

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I'm not complaining about the pamphlets, but I am complaining about the advertising they project, which is banned from Groundspeak regulations.

 

Nope, keep your facts straight - advertising is banned on the cache LISTING, not in the cache contents.

 

I don't know how it works where you're from, but sometimes our cache listings are just a bunch of numbers that people need to figure out to get to the cache. Sometimes only a picture. Sometimes it's just a listing with coordinates with the listing "Happy caching!" Don't get me wrong, I get excited about any and all caches because we don't have a huge cache saturation here. It's not bad, but it isn't good. My boyfriend is from a much larger area where their are a lot of caches, but I would be disappointed if I ever visited a cache that has a very common name with the description as "Happy Caching," and I found nothing but pamphlets from any select church or denomination. It's almost like a viral advertising stunt. If they say no advertising in the cache listing, I say so advertising in the caches. Now, if it's a cache that says "Welcome to Clarksburg!" I'm sure I can expect to find a map of the local area in the cache, maybe a few menus from local restaurants, etc. I have seen caches where no one has claimed that they put their favorite verse in exchange for a McDonald's toy their kid loved, but I have visited those caches, and lo and behold . . . Religious propaganda. It's the same as advertising.

 

For one, I go out in the woods to get away from these things, searching for geocaches in the woods just makes my personal experience there more fulfilling. But, when I open these caches and see a lot of religious stuff, I get disappointed because I feel like I'm being recruited. Do I read them? No. Do I take them out because I can't stand the thought of them being there? No. I just don't like finding the advertisements there. I don't think it's a personal attack on me, I just wish it wasn't there.

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I'm not complaining about the pamphlets, but I am complaining about the advertising they project, which is banned from Groundspeak regulations.

 

Nope, keep your facts straight - advertising is banned on the cache LISTING, not in the cache contents.

 

I would be disappointed if I ever visited a cache that has a very common name with the description as "Happy Caching," and I found nothing but pamphlets from any select church or denomination. It's almost like a viral advertising stunt. If they say no advertising in the cache listing, I say so advertising in the caches.

Are we getting into bizarre "What ifs" now? I guess if you can't prove a point using reality then pushing it further away from reality and making it more bizarre might be the next tactic. I'm not sure where this thread is going now.... Edited by TrailGators
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I don't believe the Christian church is an evil incarnate. I believe all religions who persecute non-believers are going against their purpose, including the ones who kill those who don't go along with it. I'm saying the Christian church is one of the biggest examples of repeated persecution to nonbelievers, and the persecution is very WIDELY accepted. I personally cannot compare the Christian church's persecutions to those of a small-area religious government persecuting non-believing revolutionaries who could change the government with a big enough group. (And help from outside groups they may contact.) They don't get a pass, they just can't compare because they don't affect a wide enough area, or as many people as Christianity had and they weren't even a part of this discussion until you wanted to argue about them. These countries don't send missionaries to different parts of the world to convert them to their beliefs. I'm not saying what they are doing is right, it's just no one has been able to stand up to them in the way it needs to be done, which is NOT war.

I don't think this is a discussion about war. You said the the Christian church was the only church to condemn people. Now it is just that they are the biggest so the others aren't important enough to mention. SPIN. Calling the church the government, thereby making it a political persecution just does not hold water.

 

You're not reading what I'm saying. Maybe I'm just not making myself clear enough. Other persecuting religions are important enough to mention, they just can't be compared as one and the same with Christianity because they're just not. Most followers of Christianity, whether they intend to or not, try the brainwashing method and scare tactics nowadays, but in the past they killed people for the name of Christianity, yet they are still widely accepted. They have never come forth and apologized for what they did or "asked forgiveness" as far as I know. These things just happened to die down. Other types of religions are more literal on what will happen to you if you don't follow along with the "herd." They kill you because the leaders of these nations and communities use religion as a means of governing the people into doing what they want.

 

This discussion is not about war, it's about religion. What I am saying is the wrong way to fight any kind of persecution is war, including religious persecution. People in religious-governing countries can't revolutionize and stand up to the persecution of the religion because they are squelched before they can. The way to stand up to these entities is not war by the people, it is a different method, and said method could be walking away, it could be anything, it doesn't need to be a particular method.

 

In this country, the church is not the government, yes the government in this country is based off common-laws based of religious nature because the people who settled this land were members of a church (the same church, a different denomination, I might add), but the church is not the government here. Yet, they still let religious killings occur (Salem witch trials).

 

In other countries where there is a lot of religious killings, the religion is literally the government. Vice versa, the government literally is the religion. In these countries, it truly is political persecution. Thankfully, hopefully here, we will never let it happen again from Christianity.

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I'm not complaining about the pamphlets, but I am complaining about the advertising they project, which is banned from Groundspeak regulations.

 

Nope, keep your facts straight - advertising is banned on the cache LISTING, not in the cache contents.

 

I would be disappointed if I ever visited a cache that has a very common name with the description as "Happy Caching," and I found nothing but pamphlets from any select church or denomination. It's almost like a viral advertising stunt. If they say no advertising in the cache listing, I say so advertising in the caches.

Are we getting into bizarre "What ifs" now? I guess if you can't prove a point using reality then pushing it further away from reality and making it more bizarre might be the next tactic. I'm not sure where this thread is going now....

 

It's not a what-if. Ubiquitous cache listings and descriptions can completely mean anything else, including a big ole church advertising geocache. I guess I could just start reporting these caches for misrepresentation to the reviewers. That would make things work the way they need to.

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... I guess I could just start reporting these caches for misrepresentation to the reviewers. That would make things work the way they need to.

 

You're not listening! Tracts in caches are not forbidden. Even if there's nothing in the cache BUT tracts there's nothing to report.

 

Misrepresentation? What's that?

 

Report away if you feel the need. :blink::anibad:

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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In answer to the question - misrepresentation? What's that?

 

Wikepedia suggests the following:

 

It means a false statement of fact made by one party to another party, which has the effect of inducing that party into the contract. For example, under certain circumstances, false statements or promises made by a seller of goods regarding the quality or nature of the product that the seller has may constitute misrepresentation. A finding of misrepresentation allows for a remedy of rescission and sometimes damages depending on the type of misrepresentation.

 

Looking forward to the assessment opf damages for misrepresentation!

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...what is it about me that has made me a viable target? That is, what is it about me that makes them feel their "message" is needed and justified?

 

Nothing. You need to understand that. You are human, look normal enough, and there is nothing about you that would casue you to be chosen by apperances alone. It's not personal or an indication that you have a problem. They would have to know you to know that you specificly need the word. If it's random, it's just that. Random.

 

Understood. Just as I'm sure you can understand why some might find such scorched-earth evangelism bothersome to experience.

A lot of things in this world I find bothersome to experience. That doesn't mean I get to stop them from happening. It doesn't mean I should get to stop them from happening. I can only try to make sure that I don't do it to other people.

 

I don't recall ever advocating termination of the activity. My point was that, while others may have the right to stick their noses into my spiritual affairs, I have every right to smack their noses when they attempt to do so.

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I don't think this is a discussion about war. You said the the Christian church was the only church to condemn people. Now it is just that they are the biggest so the others aren't important enough to mention. SPIN. Calling the church the government, thereby making it a political persecution just does not hold water.

 

I agree with you that they spoke in error about the Christian Church being the only Church to condemn and are even more in error to claim the Christians have done it the most, however, there was a significant amount of time when religion defined law. Religion was government. Think back to Judaic law and how it ruled the people. Think about Egypt, Greece, Rome... history does speak for itself. It's nothing new and even though US Constitution guarantees us Freedom of Religion, it doesn't guarantee us Freedom from Religion.

 

Religious lobbies can be powerful and, in the US, Christian lobbies dominate. They certainly are political. Non-Christian religions, including Atheists (and by association Agnostics), do experience a considerable amount more of prejudice than Christians. How many times does someone say "Muslim" and someone else just has to bring up "Terrorism" even though we've experienced the KKK (alive and well throughout the nation, by the way!) and the militia groups? How can we get away with saying "Well, Christian holidays have been so commercialised that they're really for everyone now"? How does that not give foundation to the statement that Christianity has a great influence on government and society, including non-Christian society?

 

It's the dominate group (not necessarily the physical majority) that rules the roost. In the US, the dominate religious group are Christians so we have people claiming "It's a Christian nation." In the US, the dominate language group is English so we have people claiming "It's an English-speaking nation." In truth, there is no religion and no language that is claimed as THE religion or THE language of the United States. It would be contradictory to the fundamental freedoms this country was actually established under. (Sorry if the language thing turns into off-topic drama. I was trying to find a parallel.)

 

The Christian influence on Western society will allow an individual to accept Christian items more easily than non-Christian items because they're desensitised to them.

 

When it comes to religious material in caches... and I was under the impression that we were talking about one Watchtower or one Jack Chick Tract or one knotted rosary or one set of prayer beads NOT that the cache was stuffed beyond capacity with "GOOD NEWS" magnets and tri-folds... I think we need to disconnect our own personal feelings about it and approach it in the manner that's been repeatedly stated by numerous people throughout this thread. If a cache is overstuffed, I don't care WHAT it's overstuffed with, it needs to be cleaned out! Ask any cacher if they found a cache that was stuffed beyond capacity with _____. They'll all answer the same way: CLEAN IT OUT. It could be CITO Bags (but that would just be ironic).

 

- Elle

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Most followers of Christianity, whether they intend to or not, try the brainwashing method and scare tactics nowadays
For some reason, I'm suddenly hearing Ozzie singing "Paranoid." :wub:

 

Yeah, I think of that, too, when I listen to fanatics ranting on and on about their fears if they aren't saved.

That went right over your head. Most followers of Christianity are not trying brainwashing and scare tactics. That is a very distorted view of reality. That's why the song popped in my head.+
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Most followers of Christianity, whether they intend to or not, try the brainwashing method and scare tactics nowadays
For some reason, I'm suddenly hearing Ozzie singing "Paranoid." :wub:

 

Yeah, I think of that, too, when I listen to fanatics ranting on and on about their fears if they aren't saved.

That went right over your head. Most followers of Christianity are not trying brainwashing and scare tactics. That is a very distorted view of reality. That's why the song popped in my head.+

 

Go listen to a fire and brimstone type of denomination such as the Southern Baptists.

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Most followers of Christianity are not trying brainwashing and scare tactics. That is a very distorted view of reality. That's why the song popped in my head.+

 

Go listen to a fire and brimstone type of denomination such as the Southern Baptists.

 

TrailGators said "most don't" which allows for the possibility that some do. You're citing one denomination, which would constitute "some" and not "most".

 

It seems you're both in agreement that such an attitude and approach does exist but is not the majority.

 

Or y'all can keep arguing over each other. You know, whatever. :wub:

 

- Elle

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Go listen to a fire and brimstone type of denomination such as the Southern Baptists.

 

Generalizations and categorizations are often wrong... as is the case here.

 

I am a lifelong Southern Baptist and a volunteer for Southern Baptist Disaster Relief, an organization which has eclipsed The American Red Cross and Salvation Army as the largest non-government provider of disaster relief services worldwide.

 

You'll hear no fire-and-brimstone ranting from us.

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How can we get away with saying "Well, Christian holidays have been so commercialised that they're really for everyone now"?

 

I think we really need to consider what the Christians call "their" holidays and symbols. During the end of the burning times, the Christians started celebrating their holidays the same as the Pagans in order to help convert them. They told them they were right for practicing on these holidays, but they were celebrating for the wrong reasons. Let's look two of the major shared holidays, without looking at secondary ones that are still around but are called by different names, though there are still the old time similarities

 

Yule (or Winter Solstice) was originally considered to be the rebirth of the sun god because at that time of year the days slowly start to grow longer. They gave thanks for the gods letting them get through the longest night. The Yule tree was used as a phallic symbol in representation of the male deity (which differed with each culture or group). Holly and evergreens were used as decoration because they are the only plant at this time of year that shows life. The Christian church decided that would be a good time to represent when their savior was born. They also adopted the Christmas tree in order to help the pagans convert more easily.

 

Ostara is celebrated on March 20-23 (Spring Equinox). This is the day when night and day are in balance. Ostara is the Norse Goddess of Fertility. After this day, the days continue to grow longer and longer, and the snow begins to melt, giving way to spring. (Meaning the goddess has given birth to spring.) The rabbit and egg were used as symbols of fertility and rebirth. So were sheep. It just so happens we celebrate Easter around this time, which is the resurrection or rebirth of Christ. Most likely, the name Easter was derived from the Goddess Estre.

 

There is no accurate timeline of when Christ was actually born, crucified, or even resurrected because it was destroyed by Europe in order to convert the pagans. One thing we do know is, in order for people like shepherds to go see him, it would have to be at a time during summer when sheep were not getting ready to start giving birth. Sheep need to be closely tended to because they have so much trouble with birth. In those times, these people lived off their herds and any lost babies meant a major loss to the shepherd.

 

Anyway, I am back on topic from here on out. Bring forth the crucifixes, rosaries, praying hands keychains, and sheep, just leave the literature for community bulletin boards in gas stations and grocery stores. I want to know about who you are, not about your church or beliefs.

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Go listen to a fire and brimstone type of denomination such as the Southern Baptists.

 

Generalizations and categorizations are often wrong... as is the case here.

 

I am a lifelong Southern Baptist and a volunteer for Southern Baptist Disaster Relief, an organization which has eclipsed The American Red Cross and Salvation Army as the largest non-government provider of disaster relief services worldwide.

 

You'll hear no fire-and-brimstone ranting from us.

 

I've heard fire and brimstone from our Southern Baptist churches, and I love the people who go to those churches. I enjoy the ceremonies because they really get into what they believe. I adore that. But, there is a lot of loudness about what will happen to you. I have not once said the church doesn't do any good. I have to say thank goodness for churches who do good and give their time to help others in need. If it weren't for these church groups, there would be so much more suffering in the world than there is right now. I am always thankful, and I have worked for the Episcopal Lutheran Church Good Samaritan Society, and I help out at the church sponsored soup kitchens and the mission every winter. I love having the ability to work hand in hand with these groups. I am just pointing out that it wasn't always this way.

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Go listen to a fire and brimstone type of denomination such as the Southern Baptists.

 

Generalizations and categorizations are often wrong... as is the case here.

 

I am a lifelong Southern Baptist and a volunteer for Southern Baptist Disaster Relief, an organization which has eclipsed The American Red Cross and Salvation Army as the largest non-government provider of disaster relief services worldwide.

 

You'll hear no fire-and-brimstone ranting from us.

 

I've heard fire and brimstone from our Southern Baptist churches, and I love the people who go to those churches. I enjoy the ceremonies because they really get into what they believe. I adore that. But, there is a lot of loudness about what will happen to you. I have not once said the church doesn't do any good. I have to say thank goodness for churches who do good and give their time to help others in need. If it weren't for these church groups, there would be so much more suffering in the world than there is right now. I am always thankful, and I have worked for the Episcopal Lutheran Church Good Samaritan Society, and I help out at the church sponsored soup kitchens and the mission every winter. I love having the ability to work hand in hand with these groups. I am just pointing out that it wasn't always this way.

So how many toes are you going to stomp on today? Your gross generalizations and stereotypes are way off the mark.

 

This discussion involved a miniscule minority of caches that have pieces of paper in them. Evidentally some of these pieces of paper jump out of caches and make people read them. I'm not sure how they do this but it seems to be happening with some people.

Edited by TrailGators
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Why do you think I decided not to explain the full wheel?
Can we spell T-O-L-E-R-A-N-C-E? The OP is about religious materials in caches and what it boils back to is if it's YOUR cache then dump 'em if you don't want them in there. If it ISN'T you cache then sign the log and move along, not your house to clean. If you find them in a cache and you don't personally think they should be in there then by all means, email the owner and tell them and let THEM do something about it like post "I have been informed there are religious papers in this cache, can the next finder please remove them for me" or let them do it on a maintenance run. Maybe it's from THEIR church and they want them there. I have found several caches on church property with the church's permission and would feel no more offended by their material in there then I would to trail maps in a park cache. I don't think you'll spotaniously combust if you move religious papers aside to find the log book :wub:

 

"I used to think anyone doing anything weird was weird. Now I know that it is the people that call others weird that are weird." - Paul McCartney

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]Can we spell T-O-L-E-R-A-N-C-E?

 

The exercising of tolerance is predicated on respect for another's right to their opinion.

 

The right to hold an opinion does not equate to a right to attempt to convince others of this opinion.

 

Misusing geocaching for religious/political propaganda (or any other form of advertising) is entirely inappropriate.

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The exercising of tolerance is predicated on respect for another's right to their opinion. The right to hold an opinion does not equate to a right to attempt to convince others of this opinion.
You're right but that right comes from the right to freedom of speech. Doesn't mean you have to like it, but everyone has the "right" to voice their opinion vocally or thru print. Just as much as you have the right not read it or listen to it if you don't want to, or express your own opinion.

 

Misusing geocaching for religious/political propaganda (or any other form of advertising) is entirely inappropriate.
No rules against religious materials or against any type of advertising INSIDE cache containers so deeming that as "misuse" or "inappropriate" is your opinion which you have the right to express. But what someone allows in their cache, in their property, is entirely up to them. You can control what is in your caches but you have no more right to throw out religious materials from someone else's cache then you do to throw out the log book. After all, it might of been the owner who placed them there.
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There could have been no better answer than the one quoted here! If I put out a new cache, I should be able to put what I want in the cashe (child-friendly).

 

You should be glad someone thinks enough about you, to care about your sole!!!!!!!

I'll stop now :wub:

 

And to play devils advocate, as the cache owner I would be able to remove items I do not want in my cache. :wub:

I completely 100% agree. :wub:

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No rules against religious materials or against any type of advertising INSIDE cache containers

 

Rules or no rules, it's at the very least an infringement of good manners to misuse geocaching for sectarian propaganda.

 

Yeah, but what can you do about it?

 

Oh, I remember. :wub:

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I don't believe the Christian church is an evil incarnate. I believe all religions who persecute non-believers are going against their purpose, including the ones who kill those who don't go along with it. I'm saying the Christian church is one of the biggest examples of repeated persecution to nonbelievers, and the persecution is very WIDELY accepted. I personally cannot compare the Christian church's persecutions to those of a small-area religious government persecuting non-believing revolutionaries who could change the government with a big enough group. (And help from outside groups they may contact.) They don't get a pass, they just can't compare because they don't affect a wide enough area, or as many people as Christianity had and they weren't even a part of this discussion until you wanted to argue about them. These countries don't send missionaries to different parts of the world to convert them to their beliefs. I'm not saying what they are doing is right, it's just no one has been able to stand up to them in the way it needs to be done, which is NOT war.

I don't think this is a discussion about war. You said the the Christian church was the only church to condemn people. Now it is just that they are the biggest so the others aren't important enough to mention. SPIN. Calling the church the government, thereby making it a political persecution just does not hold water.

 

You're not reading what I'm saying. Maybe I'm just not making myself clear enough. Other persecuting religions are important enough to mention, they just can't be compared as one and the same with Christianity because they're just not. Most followers of Christianity, whether they intend to or not, try the brainwashing method and scare tactics nowadays, but in the past they killed people for the name of Christianity, yet they are still widely accepted. They have never come forth and apologized for what they did or "asked forgiveness" as far as I know. These things just happened to die down. Other types of religions are more literal on what will happen to you if you don't follow along with the "herd." They kill you because the leaders of these nations and communities use religion as a means of governing the people into doing what they want.

 

This discussion is not about war, it's about religion. What I am saying is the wrong way to fight any kind of persecution is war, including religious persecution. People in religious-governing countries can't revolutionize and stand up to the persecution of the religion because they are squelched before they can. The way to stand up to these entities is not war by the people, it is a different method, and said method could be walking away, it could be anything, it doesn't need to be a particular method.

 

In this country, the church is not the government, yes the government in this country is based off common-laws based of religious nature because the people who settled this land were members of a church (the same church, a different denomination, I might add), but the church is not the government here. Yet, they still let religious killings occur (Salem witch trials).

 

In other countries where there is a lot of religious killings, the religion is literally the government. Vice versa, the government literally is the religion. In these countries, it truly is political persecution. Thankfully, hopefully here, we will never let it happen again from Christianity.

I disagree that it is political and not religious in nature. From my perspective is seems a way to single out

Christianity as the "only" (your words) religion to persecute people.

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I don't recall ever advocating termination of the activity. My point was that, while others may have the right to stick their noses into my spiritual affairs, I have every right to smack their noses when they attempt to do so.

Depending on what you mean by "smack their noses". If you mean you have the right to talk to them or write to them and let them know your point of view, then yes I would agree with that.

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If a cache is overstuffed, I don't care WHAT it's overstuffed with, it needs to be cleaned out! Ask any cacher if they found a cache that was stuffed beyond capacity with _____. They'll all answer the same way: CLEAN IT OUT. It could be CITO Bags (but that would just be ironic).

 

- Elle

I can't disagree with this. If I want to put in a travel bug and someone has filled the cache with multiple copies of anything, I would make room. Not because it would be rude to put a tract or flier in the cache, but because it would be rude to "fill" the cache and leave no room for others.

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I don't recall ever advocating termination of the activity. My point was that, while others may have the right to stick their noses into my spiritual affairs, I have every right to smack their noses when they attempt to do so.

Depending on what you mean by "smack their noses". If you mean you have the right to talk to them or write to them and let them know your point of view, then yes I would agree with that.

 

Well, I literally smack their noses. I'm telling ya, Jehovah's Witnesses don't come knocking at the door on Saturday mornings after a good newspaper spanking. "No! Bad! No!"

 

- Elle

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No rules against religious materials or against any type of advertising INSIDE cache containers

 

Rules or no rules, it's at the very least an infringement of good manners to misuse geocaching for sectarian propaganda.

Would you allow any propaganda, flier, tract, advertising or political info of any kind at all in a cache? Nothing about CITO, global warming, tread lightly, save the dolphins, stop war, vote for whomever, nothing?

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I don't recall ever advocating termination of the activity. My point was that, while others may have the right to stick their noses into my spiritual affairs, I have every right to smack their noses when they attempt to do so.

Depending on what you mean by "smack their noses". If you mean you have the right to talk to them or write to them and let them know your point of view, then yes I would agree with that.

 

Well, I literally smack their noses. I'm telling ya, Jehovah's Witnesses don't come knocking at the door on Saturday mornings after a good newspaper spanking. "No! Bad! No!"

 

- Elle

 

i think i just peed myself.

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I don't recall ever advocating termination of the activity. My point was that, while others may have the right to stick their noses into my spiritual affairs, I have every right to smack their noses when they attempt to do so.

Depending on what you mean by "smack their noses". If you mean you have the right to talk to them or write to them and let them know your point of view, then yes I would agree with that.

 

Well, I literally smack their noses. I'm telling ya, Jehovah's Witnesses don't come knocking at the door on Saturday mornings after a good newspaper spanking. "No! Bad! No!"

 

- Elle

Ok ok maybe then, :wub:

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The right to hold an opinion does not equate to a right to attempt to convince others of this opinion.
I think there is something about that in the constitution.

Really? Where is that?

Something about free speech.

Nope, it's not. You will find protection from the GOVERNMENT restricting or controlling your religion and speech in that oft-misunderstood document, that's it. :wub:

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The right to hold an opinion does not equate to a right to attempt to convince others of this opinion.
I think there is something about that in the constitution.

Really? Where is that?

Something about free speech.

Nope, it's not. You will find protection from the GOVERNMENT restricting or controlling your religion and speech in that oft-misunderstood document, that's it. :wub:

Well what else is there regarding the question at hand. If I don't have a right to attempt to convince others of my point of view, what is their recourse? Are private citizens allowed to prevent me from speaking? If a private citizen could limit my speech in a public arena it would have to be government sanctioned through some sort of law.

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The right to hold an opinion does not equate to a right to attempt to convince others of this opinion.
I think there is something about that in the constitution.

Really? Where is that?

Something about free speech.

Nope, it's not. You will find protection from the GOVERNMENT restricting or controlling your religion and speech in that oft-misunderstood document, that's it. :wub:

Wiki sums up freedom of speech very well: "For instance, the United States First Amendment theoretically grants absolute freedom, placing the burden upon the state to demonstrate when (if) a limitation of this freedom is necessary. Many liberal democracies recognized that restrictions should be the exception and free expression the rule." So we have freedom of speech unless the government has decided that some limits had to be established because some harm was demonstrated.
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The right to hold an opinion does not equate to a right to attempt to convince others of this opinion.
I think there is something about that in the constitution.
Really? Where is that?
Something about free speech.
Nope, it's not. You will find protection from the GOVERNMENT restricting or controlling your religion and speech in that oft-misunderstood document, that's it. :wub:
Well what else is there regarding the question at hand. If I don't have a right to attempt to convince others of my point of view, what is their recourse? Are private citizens allowed to prevent me from speaking? If a private citizen could limit my speech in a public arena it would have to be government sanctioned through some sort of law.

Nope. Nothing gives you the RIGHT to try and convince me of your opinion. You're allowed to talk about it, and I'm allowed to leave, to close my door, to shout you down, or to take similar actions to keep you from telling me your opinion. The constitution protects no rights of yours in this regard.

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Nope. Nothing gives you the RIGHT to try and convince me of your opinion. You're allowed to talk about it, and I'm allowed to leave, to close my door, to shout you down, or to take similar actions to keep you from telling me your opinion. The constitution protects no rights of yours in this regard.

Well that is what I said. I did not say I have the right to make you listen.

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Nope. Nothing gives you the RIGHT to try and convince me of your opinion. You're allowed to talk about it, and I'm allowed to leave, to close my door, to shout you down, or to take similar actions to keep you from telling me your opinion. The constitution protects no rights of yours in this regard.

I find it interesting that I don't have a right to convince you, but you are allowed to shout me down or take actions to silence me.

Edited by traildad
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Well what else is there regarding the question at hand. If I don't have a right to attempt to convince others of my point of view, what is their recourse?

Try doing it at work. You will likely be shut down pretty quickly. Maintain your right to attempt to convince others of your point of view and you'll likely be fired.

 

Are private citizens allowed to prevent me from speaking? If a private citizen could limit my speech in a public arena it would have to be government sanctioned through some sort of law.

This is a Groundspeak-owned forum... so far they have allowed this incredibly off-topic thread, but they don't have to. Attempt to convince others of your point of view here and they can choose to close the thread... open another for that purpose and they can ban your account.

 

Stand up in a Baptist church and begin to explain why Catholics have it right... the private citizens there will shut you down pretty quickly!

 

As at work, church, home or in these forums you in fact do not have a right to free speech!

 

It's not just religious speech, but any speech - witness the forum posting guidelines in this and most any other forum, and the Moderators who enforce them. You in fact cannot say anything unless they choose to allow you to.

Edited by TheAlabamaRambler
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