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Religious material in caches


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...I consider their techniques every bit as misguided and efficacious as the Inquisitions and witch-hunts for securing the safety of souls...

 

You should probably not confuse the kind of thinking that burns folks like Joan of Arc at the stake for someone who actually is interested in the souls of other people including random strangers who they can't reach any other way than by tracts.

 

There are all kinds of tracts in the world who's goal is to reach folks they can't reach directly. I have these plastic Leave No Trace thingies that do exactly what tracts do. I got them in a cache.

 

Applying flasks logic, it was rude of the leave no trace folks to think I was somehow deficient. Applying your logic those leave no trace folks are as misguided as the Salem Elders tossing a suspected witch in the water to see if they drown.

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This happens to me *ALL* the time. I drive up to a cache, open it up and there's an annoying Christian blasting me with his religious messages.. This is becoming a HUGE problem in my area. Those bible-thumpin' Christians should not be allowed in caches. I try to trade them out, but they keep biting my fingers. I'm being repressed!
Come and see the violence inherent in the system. Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

Bloody peasant!

Oh, what a giveaway! Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about! Did you see him repressing me? You saw him, Didn't you? :D

 

I still do not think that "sharing" it in a cache is appropriate. To me that borders on "pushing it", sure I can choose not to read it, it's still paper, its still gets mushy when it rains.
By the same perspective a Mayor McCheese McToy in a cache can be seen as "pushing" Micky-D's which could be deemed inappropriate for caching vegetarians. A Goofy character could be seen as "pushing" the commercial and materialist values of Disney World and inappropriate to naturalists. Kind of makes you wonder how pacifists feel popping open ammo cans! This is where tolerance comes into effect.... and also where that extra couple sheets of paper, soggy or not, can be a lot more valuable then plastic toys :D Edited by infiniteMPG
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By the same perspective a Mayor McCheese McToy in a cache can be seen as "pushing" Micky-D's which could be deemed inappropriate for caching vegetarians. A Goofy character could be seen as "pushing" the commercial and materialist values of Disney World and inappropriate to naturalists. Kind of makes you wonder how pacifists feel popping open ammo cans! This is where tolerance comes into effect.... and also where that extra couple sheets of paper, soggy or not, can be a lot more valuable then plastic toys :D

A McToy or any little toy (it could even be bible related) is relavent to caching if children (or even some adults that are into trading toys) are present, they usually get a kick out of trading something else for the McToy and yes some people could "perceive" it as push for MickeyD's whatever, to me it's just a benign toy. I'm even ok with coin's that have religious messages on them. To me those are like leaving a sig item, hey, if religion is your thing cool! I have nothing against that. I've even moved a couple of religious themed geocoins, the difference is that they are trackable and still pertain to geocaching! Paper tracts do not pertain to geocaching whatsoever. Plastic "leave no trace" thingies pertain to geocaching, paper religious tracts do not. Now if you put those tracts on plastic, I could see it as being more of a trade item to somebody out there.

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By the same perspective a Mayor McCheese McToy in a cache can be seen as "pushing" Micky-D's which could be deemed inappropriate for caching vegetarians. A Goofy character could be seen as "pushing" the commercial and materialist values of Disney World and inappropriate to naturalists. Kind of makes you wonder how pacifists feel popping open ammo cans! This is where tolerance comes into effect.... and also where that extra couple sheets of paper, soggy or not, can be a lot more valuable then plastic toys :D

A McToy or any little toy (it could even be bible related) is relavent to caching if children (or even some adults that are into trading toys) are present, they usually get a kick out of trading something else for the McToy and yes some people could "perceive" it as push for MickeyD's whatever, to me it's just a benign toy. I'm even ok with coin's that have religious messages on them. To me those are like leaving a sig item, hey, if religion is your thing cool! I have nothing against that. I've even moved a couple of religious themed geocoins, the difference is that they are trackable and still pertain to geocaching! Paper tracts do not pertain to geocaching whatsoever. Plastic "leave no trace" thingies pertain to geocaching, paper religious tracts do not. Now if you put those tracts on plastic, I could see it as being more of a trade item to somebody out there.

 

The great thing about living in a free country is that *I* get to decide what is relevent to me, not you :D Just because you don't find them useful or relevent does not mean someone else does.

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The great thing about living in a free country is that *I* get to decide what is relevent to me, not you :D Just because you don't find them useful or relevent does not mean someone else does.
Oh so true.... and IMHO the *ONLY* person that should have any control of what items or materials are allowed in any particular hide (within the guidelines of GC) is the owner. Period! You visit someone else's house you have no right to toss the religious statue off the shelf or rip the AC/DC poster down off the wall. If you don't like it, ignore it or leave. Same goes for visiting someone else's cache. If something in someone else's cache isn't profane or obscene yet it offends you, ignore it or leave (or both). Ain't your property.
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OMG people we are talking about leaving pamphlets in caches, how did this end up a discussion on terrorism? If you'd like to go down that road, look at Northern Ireland (for one tiny example), hmmm a war that has gone on for hundreds of years and over what?

And how does visiting someones house have anything to do with a cache?

So how often have you come across other literature (paper) that is not geocaching related in a cache? I personally haven't (who knows you probably have just to make a point). I've had one of those million dollar bills crammed into one of my micros (after people had told me the log needed repair) even if it were pizza coupons, I'd still be irritated that someone was that ignorant to do such a thing. It's not even that I find them offensive, I think of them more as paper garbage. There will never be a happy medium on this discussion (as it's gone on for 14 pages)

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And how does visiting someones house have anything to do with a cache?
Each cacher has total ownership and responsibility over their hides, just like owning a house. As long as it's in within the GC guidelines, what is in their hide/house is under their control. Everyone can yammer on about what they think but when it comes down to it, the owner has final word inside their cache. Hopefully not too much of a stretch to see that analogy.

 

So how often have you come across other literature (paper) that is not geocaching related in a cache? I personally haven't (who knows you probably have just to make a point).
We have seen some fliers for something religious in a cache one time and we just pushed them aside along with the busted up McJunk, the rusted up Hotwheels cars, the heat baked White Snake cassette tape, the worn-down-to-the-bare-plastic parade beads, the cracked in half squirt gun, the dry rotted superball, and the several-time-wet-and-now-just-damp-and-moldy fuzzy critter doll and signed the log and left.

 

I've had one of those million dollar bills crammed into one of my micros (after people had told me the log needed repair) even if it were pizza coupons, I'd still be irritated that someone was that ignorant to do such a thing. It's not even that I find them offensive, I think of them more as paper garbage.
One cacher's garbage is another cacher's treasure. Best we ran across was certificates in a cache for a nearby pub and a cacher who had a deal to buy a beer for whomever brought in the coupons. If I considered it "ignorant" for someone to leave the next cacher a free beer coupon, well, I'm all for more ignorance then! :D Edited by infiniteMPG
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The great thing about living in a free country is that *I* get to decide what is relevent to me.

I'll agree with you there! :D

The other thing is that *I* not only get to decide if you need a tract, wide berth, friendly hello, or mace, I'm forced to do that by real life. Naturally you are free to decide if the face full of mace was relevant when I thought my safety was in question. :D (Didn't they do a video on this called "why men don't ask for directions"?)

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Best we ran across was certificates in a cache for a nearby pub and a cacher who had a deal to buy a beer for whomever brought in the coupons. If I considered it "ignorant" for someone to leave the next cacher a free beer coupon, well, I'm all for more ignorance then! :D

 

But would you compromise the integrity of someones elses cache to advertise? Even for beer?

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Just curious, but in regards to cache etiquette, what's the accepted thought on religious material

being placed in caches? I ask because I'm rather new at this and really do not know. So far my wife

and I have encountered at least three caches with religious tracts stuck in them (one was almost stuffed with them. I'm not a follower of any religion, and I grant that each has a right to his or her own beliefs, but is really an accepted practice in geocaching?

 

This thread has been alive for twenty days and it has fourteen pages. Wow! You'd think people were posting pictures of Groundspeak crew or something! :D

 

Personally speaking, I think that anything that's more informative (tracts, watchtowers, bibles, etc) should be limited. Things that are more practical (rosaries, medals, pentacles, etc) seem perfectly okay to me.

 

What concerns me is the demands for a restriction on swag that's not illegal or regulated. I understand that Geocaching must enforce the laws of the land. We can't trespass, we can't put guns, tobacco, alcohol, pornography and other regulated material into caches. All that makes sense because the exposure of these materials is unmoderated when it's in a cache and there's no control over whose hands it may fall into. Plus, it'd be a drag if caching was used for some commercial purpose (like, let's say, trying to sell a certain type of car by releasing a type of travel bug?) so it makes sense to have some sort of discouragement to have some control to prevent political campaigns or congregations (of any religion) from hiding an insane amount of caches in an area to promote themselves. Could you imagine if caches were hidden to promote a movie?

 

I think the idea is to prevent the sport from being hijacked and I think we're far from that ever happening. A rosary here or a pentacle there certainly doesn't dominate the sport, nor are cachers contractually required by finding the cache to convert to whatever religion might have some material presence in that particular cache (although you might want to doublecheck for fine print in the log book before signing).

 

Anyway, I'm more concerned with people who want more rules and more restrictions on a game that's so simple and carefree in the very nature of it. One could spectulate that those individuals are forcing their beliefs and agendas on the rest of us.

 

I just want to use multi-million dollar satellites to find tupperware in the woods. Don't you? :D

 

- Elle

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I wish I wouldn't have sat here and read through this discussion. As soon as I saw it, I thought "Ack, a 'Religious Debate Thread.'" However, I read through it, enough that I felt the need to post. I generally try to stay out of all religious discussions because I feel I am mixed about how I few things to other people.

 

First and foremost, I have practiced Wicca since I was about 15. I started to study different beliefs to see which would fit me best because I feel everyone needs some faith, whether or not it's in some type of deity or in themselves. Most every major religious faith believes in an afterlife of some sort. Even the religions who believe you reincarnate believe you eventually reach "heaven." They believe that you reincarnate to your next life based on how you live this life. If you live your life in a good way (whatever way that may be), you will reincarnate to a better life (maybe one where you are richer, etc.). If you live your life in a bad way, you reincarnate to a worse off life. When I speak with Christians on matter of religion, I always ask, "Why is there one straight and narrow path to heaven?" In my eyes, there is never a clear answer.

 

I am not posting this to attack any Christians, but only to share my ideas on religion. It's true everyone has their own views. People generally fear any religion that is different to them. A lot of people have come to fear those who practice Islam since 9/11 just because they associate that with the Middle East and terrorists, even though it is only the religion practiced by a small few of people who are actually terrorists. Since forever ago, people have been taught to fear "witches" and pagan beliefs and incantations and the supernatural.

 

Unfortunately for Christians, the Inquisition was started by the church. It has been going on for centuries upon centuries, but it peaked in the 17th century when the people who ran the church (which, in that day, were the only "intellectuals" of the area) developed a fear of bad deeds, and they blamed these bad deeds on witchcraft. After that, came the burning times where thousands upon thousands of people were executed for witchcraft. In those times, people lived off the land and their farms, therefore a lot of people felt they needed to worship and thank gods for their harvests, and a lot of these people were killed. This is where the church began getting it's reputation for being so intolerant. This, and their missionary trips to convert third world countries, and we cannot forget their attempts to convert the Native Americans when they first discovered the new world. Their is also the Salem witch trials to consider. All of these things were started by the church.

 

I have to say that almost any Christian I have ever tried to have a conversation about religion with have gotten very defensive and tried to make me feel bad for believing the way I do. One acquaintance of mine went into my house with a previously open-minded and supportive friend and gathered all my books and symbols that represented my pagan beliefs and burned them in my yard. Needless to say, the acquaintance and the friend were forgotten about forever. The problem with the church is that it teaches closed-mindedness that that there is only one straight and narrow path, and if you stray you will burn in hell. It just isn't completely right, as far as I'm concerned. Unfortunately, the church puts itself out there to help the world, but they also hurt the world in their close-minded teachings. I realize this does not apply to all Christians, and I'm not saying it does.

 

I believe Jesus existed, and I believe that he truly was open-minded to all people with unwavering faith in himself and the beliefs he was trying to teach. However, I think it was a bit of a stretch for him to say he was the son of god, and I don't think in his teachings, he ever said it. I think those were stories told around to hype him up to something bigger than he actually was. He may have held some of the qualities of Jim Jones because he was somehow able to get a huge sect of people to believe in him and follow him to who knows what ends. In those days, it wasn't practical for a huge group of people to pack up and move to some desert oasis because their was no way to get in the necessary living and building supplies. There was also no way to commit mass suicide.

 

All in all, I am fine with Christians in general as long as they leave me alone, however, I have put Wiccan related items into caches and the very next visitor to those caches almost always throws a fit about it and removes it for whatever reason. So, I have stopped putting those items into caches, though they in no way advertised the religion, more often than not, they were actually symbols that could have meant any variety of things. I feel all religious orientation should be banned from geocacaching except those of signature items and geocoins because, like others have said, they say something about the cacher in particular. We do not need recruitment items. Let's leave it to the billboards, fliers, newspapers, Internet, and television.

 

I would like to know what religious Christians who do not leave religious pamphlets behind think of religious recruitment pamphlets?

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I would like to know what religious Christians who do not leave religious pamphlets behind think of religious recruitment pamphlets?

 

I am a Christian. That affects how I comport myself. Period. I do not leave tracts in caches nor try to influence others with my beliefs.

 

However, if I find a tract of any sort in a cache I will likely read it as I enjoy learning about everything.

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Anyway, I'm more concerned with people who want more rules and more restrictions on a game that's so simple and carefree in the very nature of it. One could spectulate that those individuals are forcing their beliefs and agendas on the rest of us.

 

- Elle

 

who advocated for more rules?

 

I wish I wouldn't have sat here and read through this discussion.

I would like to know what religious Christians who do not leave religious pamphlets behind think of religious recruitment pamphlets?

 

apparently you didn't actually read the whole thread.

 

religious recruitment pamphlets are rude.

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The problem with the church is that it teaches closed-mindedness that that there is only one straight and narrow path, and if you stray you will burn in hell. It just isn't completely right, as far as I'm concerned.

Keep in mind that, in other words, what you are saying is that the church points to all other views on religion and says they are not right. That is the closed mindedness you mention. You point to the churches view on religion and say it's not right. Maybe you leave more wiggle room than the church does, but since it can't be proven, maybe the church is right. Maybe you are right. Allow them the right to believe what they want, even if they think you are going to burn in hell. If you are going to be truly open minded, you need to accept that the church could be right.

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Anyway, I'm more concerned with people who want more rules and more restrictions on a game that's so simple and carefree in the very nature of it. One could spectulate that those individuals are forcing their beliefs and agendas on the rest of us.

 

- Elle

 

who advocated for more rules?

 

 

GeoNaturist specifically said s/he wanted more rules to forbid any such materials. It was mixed up there with all the disrespectful language towards people who believed differently than them. GeoNaturist isn't the first person I've ever seen request such a thing or involk Godwin's Law on the topic of religion. I didn't consider her/his opinion to be isolated or unique. It's just one view of what Groundspeak should do to make Geocaching more customed to an individual's preference rather than keeping it open and fair for all. People have opinions. I just think we should keep the regulations as few as possible and based on justifiable grounds instead of subjective ideas. I'm a GeoMinimalist and that's my opinion. :anibad:

 

- Elle

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The problem with the church is that it teaches closed-mindedness that that there is only one straight and narrow path, and if you stray you will burn in hell. It just isn't completely right, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Sounds just like a tract I've found in a cache.

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The problem with the church is that it teaches closed-mindedness that that there is only one straight and narrow path, and if you stray you will burn in hell. It just isn't completely right, as far as I'm concerned.
I really wish people would stop spewing their insulting ignorance. It isn't doing anyone any good. :anibad:
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I would like to know what religious Christians who do not leave religious pamphlets behind think of religious recruitment pamphlets?

 

I'm a born, raised and confirmed Roman Catholic / former Druid / former Agnostic / now practicing Episcopalian. Everything I've learned, believed and experienced over the years has brought me to having a stronger, deeper faith now. I'm raising up four children so we're active in the Faith and the Church. We're Church People who carry Books of Common Prayer and pray the rosary daily. I'll never ask you to convert. I'll never touch your stuff. I respect my agnostic, atheist, pagan, buddhist, jewish and muslim friends and they respect me and their other christian friends. Respect... whadda concept, eh? :anibad:

 

I don't like Watchtowers or the religion that passes them out. I have a strong dislike for Charismatic Christianity. It's just not my style. If it shakes someone else's tamborine, good for them.

 

I have stated that I think "religious recruitment pamphlets" (what I referred to as informative rather than practical) are not something that I would place into a cache stash. However, that decision and control ends at the tips of my fingers. I'm not comfortable telling someone they can't do what's in their perfect legal right to do simply because I don't like it. I can think they're stupid for putting it in a cache, but Geocaching does not forbid stupidity. The rules that do touch this subject make sense and are good enough.

 

- Elle

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I have stated that I think "religious recruitment pamphlets" (what I referred to as informative rather than practical) are not something that I would place into a cache stash. However, that decision and control ends at the tips of my fingers. I'm not comfortable telling someone they can't do what's in their perfect legal right to do simply because I don't like it. I can think they're stupid for putting it in a cache, but Geocaching does not forbid stupidity. The rules that do touch this subject make sense and are good enough.

 

- Elle

 

Bingo!

 

Trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all.

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The problem with the church is that it teaches closed-mindedness that that there is only one straight and narrow path, and if you stray you will burn in hell. It just isn't completely right, as far as I'm concerned.
I really wish people would stop spewing their insulting ignorance. It isn't doing anyone any good. :anibad:

 

..as if there's A church.

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...I consider their techniques every bit as misguided and efficacious as the Inquisitions and witch-hunts for securing the safety of souls...

 

You should probably not confuse the kind of thinking that burns folks like Joan of Arc at the stake for someone who actually is interested in the souls of other people including random strangers who they can't reach any other way than by tracts.

 

There are all kinds of tracts in the world who's goal is to reach folks they can't reach directly. I have these plastic Leave No Trace thingies that do exactly what tracts do. I got them in a cache.

 

Applying flasks logic, it was rude of the leave no trace folks to think I was somehow deficient. Applying your logic those leave no trace folks are as misguided as the Salem Elders tossing a suspected witch in the water to see if they drown.

 

Actually, there's no confusion, as the only parallels I drew were regarding the ineffectiveness of each to save souls, as well as their all being sprung from the breast of religious fervor. Any further attribution of likeness is solely in the mind of the reader.

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The problem with the church is that it teaches closed-mindedness that that there is only one straight and narrow path, and if you stray you will burn in hell. It just isn't completely right, as far as I'm concerned.
I really wish people would stop spewing their insulting ignorance. It isn't doing anyone any good. :anibad:

 

..as if there's A church.

Exactly. I don't have a problem with people telling me what they believe in but don't tell me what I believe in. Most of us know how full of BS that stereotypes are.
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...what is it about me that has made me a viable target? That is, what is it about me that makes them feel their "message" is needed and justified?

 

Nothing. You need to understand that. You are human, look normal enough, and there is nothing about you that would casue you to be chosen by apperances alone. It's not personal or an indication that you have a problem. They would have to know you to know that you specificly need the word. If it's random, it's just that. Random.

 

Understood. Just as I'm sure you can understand why some might find such scorched-earth evangelism bothersome to experience.

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Just as I'm sure you can understand why some might find such scorched-earth evangelism bothersome to experience.

If you are flipping through the TV channels and one of them has someone yelling and waving their hands at a large group of people, what do you do? Change the channel. If you pull out a piece of paper that is reads the same way, what do you do? Drop it and look at something else inside the cache. However, if you stop to watch that TV channel and it ends up bothering you, then you did it to yourself. The same thing goes with the piece of paper.
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...what is it about me that has made me a viable target? That is, what is it about me that makes them feel their "message" is needed and justified?

 

Nothing. You need to understand that. You are human, look normal enough, and there is nothing about you that would casue you to be chosen by apperances alone. It's not personal or an indication that you have a problem. They would have to know you to know that you specificly need the word. If it's random, it's just that. Random.

 

Understood. Just as I'm sure you can understand why some might find such scorched-earth evangelism bothersome to experience.

A lot of things in this world I find bothersome to experience. That doesn't mean I get to stop them from happening. It doesn't mean I should get to stop them from happening. I can only try to make sure that I don't do it to other people.

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The problem with the church is that it teaches closed-mindedness that that there is only one straight and narrow path, and if you stray you will burn in hell. It just isn't completely right, as far as I'm concerned.

Keep in mind that, in other words, what you are saying is that the church points to all other views on religion and says they are not right. That is the closed mindedness you mention. You point to the churches view on religion and say it's not right. Maybe you leave more wiggle room than the church does, but since it can't be proven, maybe the church is right. Maybe you are right. Allow them the right to believe what they want, even if they think you are going to burn in hell. If you are going to be truly open minded, you need to accept that the church could be right.

 

They could be right, I never said they couldn't be right. But people, "Charismatic Christians," as someone else put it, are ALWAYS telling it. They are always preaching it to anyone who will listen, whether or not they want to. They can't step out of themselves and look at it another way even for a few minutes, at least not without a rebuttal. Christianity is virtually one of the few religions that openly condemns people of other beliefs if not the ONLY religion that does. What I am saying is what they do to people of other religions is not right, not that they aren't right. This is not the open-mindedness that their prophet, and basis for their religion: Jesus Christ supposedly hoped for. There is not unconditional acceptance among all Christians, and we all know it. If on the outside, the church welcomes you with opened arms, it should accept you no matter what, even if you're only their to observe and not worship. Instead, you go in there, and they tell stories about a heretic they saw the other day and relate that to thousand-century-old tales that also have not proved to be true.

 

Even in our war propaganda, our enemies are "enemies of god." Come on, folks, haven't we used the basis of Christianity to start enough wars and kill enough people? It's time for a move forward.

 

I have many good friends who strongly believe in Christianity, and they all accept me unconditionally. I love them so very much for that, and I support anything they do religiously. However, there are Christians who won't hear tell of what I believe in unless I am confessing, getting baptized, or asking Jesus into my heart to save me.

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I would like to know what religious Christians who do not leave religious pamphlets behind think of religious recruitment pamphlets?

 

I am a Christian. That affects how I comport myself. Period. I do not leave tracts in caches nor try to influence others with my beliefs.

 

However, if I find a tract of any sort in a cache I will likely read it as I enjoy learning about everything.

 

This is fine, and if I found one, I would naturally leave it alone just like a lot of others are saying they would do, but what if you found a pentacle, some tarot cards, and some runes? Would you leave them alone?

 

 

Anyway, I'm more concerned with people who want more rules and more restrictions on a game that's so simple and carefree in the very nature of it. One could spectulate that those individuals are forcing their beliefs and agendas on the rest of us.

 

- Elle

 

who advocated for more rules?

 

I wish I wouldn't have sat here and read through this discussion.

I would like to know what religious Christians who do not leave religious pamphlets behind think of religious recruitment pamphlets?

 

apparently you didn't actually read the whole thread.

 

religious recruitment pamphlets are rude.

 

I wasn't asking just you, I've seen where other people have wrote it's rude, I wanted a more in depth opinion.

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Christianity is virtually one of the few religions that openly condemns people of other beliefs if not the ONLY religion that does. What I am saying is what they do to people of other religions is not right, not that they aren't right.

Uhh hello... If I am not mistaken, recently some practicing religious people have been known to suggest that anyone that does not follow their religion, is an infidel that should be killed. It would seem that in the heat of the moment you may have lost touch with reality. In recent history I have not heard of Christians saying anything close to that.

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Christianity is virtually one of the few religions that openly condemns people of other beliefs if not the ONLY religion that does. What I am saying is what they do to people of other religions is not right, not that they aren't right.

Uhh hello... If I am not mistaken, recently some practicing religious people have been known to suggest that anyone that does not follow their religion, is an infidel that should be killed. It would seem that in the heat of the moment you may have lost touch with reality. In recent history I have not heard of Christians saying anything close to that.

 

Is telling someone that they are going to burn in hell for all eternity just because they aren't going to follow their ways not condemning someone? As for recent history . . . History has a way of repeating itself over and over. Listen to the war propaganda.

 

As I said, Christianity is one of the few religions that openly condemns people, and we can't confuse that condemnation with other religions that use religion as the only means of government in the same breath, which is why they will kill someone who doesn't go along with the main belief.

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Christianity is virtually one of the few religions that openly condemns people of other beliefs if not the ONLY religion that does. What I am saying is what they do to people of other religions is not right, not that they aren't right.

Uhh hello... If I am not mistaken, recently some practicing religious people have been known to suggest that anyone that does not follow their religion, is an infidel that should be killed. It would seem that in the heat of the moment you may have lost touch with reality. In recent history I have not heard of Christians saying anything close to that.

 

Is telling someone that they are going to burn in hell for all eternity just because they aren't going to follow their ways not condemning someone? As for recent history . . . History has a way of repeating itself over and over. Listen to the war propaganda.

 

If I tell you that you will go to jail for all eternity if you murder someone, I am trying to tell you what I believe is going to happen. The Pope is not the one that pulls the switch that sends someone to hell. He is trying to convey what he believes will happen. That is not the same as you suggest.

 

As I said, Christianity is one of the few religions that openly condemns people, and we can't confuse that condemnation with other religions that use religion as the only means of government in the same breath, which is why they will kill someone who doesn't go along with the main belief.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. We can't confuse what? They use it as a form of government so they can cut peoples heads off because they practice a different religion and you excuse it? But Christianity says something bad will happen to you in the afterlife and they are condemned?

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Uhh hello... If I am not mistaken, recently some practicing religious people have been known to suggest that anyone that does not follow their religion, is an infidel that should be killed. It would seem that in the heat of the moment you may have lost touch with reality. In recent history I have not heard of Christians saying anything close to that.

 

Oh my. The Westboro Baptist Church, China's treatment of Tibet, the KKK, Islamic Terrorists... there's insanity and abuse of religion everywhere. Just the same as it ever was. In Christian terms, it's called evil and nothing in this world is exempt from it.

 

Some Churches are misguided. Some people are misguided. So some stupid things are said and done to get people to convert to whatever. It's unlikely that the people who drop a pamphlet in a cache are going to protest soldier funerals.

 

I just know that pointing fingers is pointless because evil and good are everywhere. The trick is being able to discern between the two. :anibad:

 

- Elle

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Christianity is virtually one of the few religions that openly condemns people of other beliefs if not the ONLY religion that does. What I am saying is what they do to people of other religions is not right, not that they aren't right.

Uhh hello... If I am not mistaken, recently some practicing religious people have been known to suggest that anyone that does not follow their religion, is an infidel that should be killed. It would seem that in the heat of the moment you may have lost touch with reality. In recent history I have not heard of Christians saying anything close to that.

 

Is telling someone that they are going to burn in hell for all eternity just because they aren't going to follow their ways not condemning someone? As for recent history . . . History has a way of repeating itself over and over. Listen to the war propaganda.

If I tell you that you will go to jail for all eternity if you murder someone, I am trying to tell you what I believe is going to happen. The Pope is not the one that pulls the switch that sends someone to hell. He is trying to convey what he believes will happen. That is not the same as you suggest.

 

Exactly, it's what they believe will happen. But, why would you tell me I'm going to jail forever for murder unless I was talking about committing homicide? Unless we were in an in-depth talk about the criminal justice system? Would you go door-to-door trying to solicit the fact that if a person commits murder, they will go to jail the rest of their lives? Would you hold a rally to get people excited about going to jail or staying out of jail whether or not they ever plan on or ever think of murdering people? My problem lays with the Christians who stand on street corners handing out fliers and telling people the only way they can be saved is by believing in Jesus Christ. Everything will turn out okay if they only believe and put their faith in the holy trinity that everything will be fine. I have no problem with people who believe and express their beliefs, but I have a problem with people who force them on people who really don't care to hear them! I have a problem with people going around trying to bother people into listening. Why don't we just hold open conferences, and people who want to listen and those whose friends coerced them into going with them can go. We don't go around telling people "It will all be okay if you just don't commit murder," so why is it okay for them to go around telling people it's okay if they only believe in Jesus?

 

 

As I said, Christianity is one of the few religions that openly condemns people, and we can't confuse that condemnation with other religions that use religion as the only means of government in the same breath, which is why they will kill someone who doesn't go along with the main belief.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. We can't confuse what? They use it as a form of government so they can cut peoples heads off because they practice a different religion and you excuse it? But Christianity says something bad will happen to you in the afterlife and they are condemned?

 

The government in these areas who kill people who don't believe is a government that lives for the religion. If one people goes against the norm, it is similar to what a revolutionary is. If they go on doing their own thing, they have a chance to inform other people about what is going on and their beliefs. They use religion as an excuse to execute people because they don't want anyone going against them. These are not governments with democracies and free speech and all the wonderful privileges we get here. It's not an excuse, they just use religion as a means of government. Religion = Government, Government = religion in these areas. However, any religion can be used and manipulated to fit any government's agenda. I would really like to have an opportunity to read a pre-King James bible, but I haven't been able to find one . . . Maybe if I could get into the Vatican City archives . . .

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Uhh hello... If I am not mistaken, recently some practicing religious people have been known to suggest that anyone that does not follow their religion, is an infidel that should be killed. It would seem that in the heat of the moment you may have lost touch with reality. In recent history I have not heard of Christians saying anything close to that.

 

Oh my. The Westboro Baptist Church, China's treatment of Tibet, the KKK, Islamic Terrorists... there's insanity and abuse of religion everywhere. Just the same as it ever was. In Christian terms, it's called evil and nothing in this world is exempt from it.

 

Some Churches are misguided. Some people are misguided. So some stupid things are said and done to get people to convert to whatever. It's unlikely that the people who drop a pamphlet in a cache are going to protest soldier funerals.

 

I just know that pointing fingers is pointless because evil and good are everywhere. The trick is being able to discern between the two. :anibad:

 

- Elle

 

I deeply agree with what you are saying. We had the Sago Mine Disaster very close to hear a few years ago, and the Westboro Baptist Church showed up at the memorial service with big bright green signs that said things like "God hates fags" and all that. It was awful.

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It's unlikely that the people who drop a pamphlet in a cache are going to protest soldier funerals.

 

- Elle

It is also unlikely that someone that drops a pamphlet in a cache is going to try to chop your head off if you complain. :anibad:

 

I'm not complaining about the pamphlets, but I am complaining about the advertising they project, which is banned from Groundspeak regulations.

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The government in these areas who kill people who don't believe is a government that lives for the religion. If one people goes against the norm, it is similar to what a revolutionary is. If they go on doing their own thing, they have a chance to inform other people about what is going on and their beliefs. They use religion as an excuse to execute people because they don't want anyone going against them. These are not governments with democracies and free speech and all the wonderful privileges we get here. It's not an excuse, they just use religion as a means of government. Religion = Government, Government = religion in these areas. However, any religion can be used and manipulated to fit any government's agenda. I would really like to have an opportunity to read a pre-King James bible, but I haven't been able to find one . . . Maybe if I could get into the Vatican City archives . . .

I still don't understand why that would make them exempt from your statement about Christian churches. I also don't understand the Religion = Government explanation. Just because the church runs the country doesn't mean it isn't a church. And it isn't just their own citizens that are subject to this. Remember the cartoons that were critical of their God. Remember Solomon Rushdie. It just seems that it is very popular these days to believe that the Christian church is evil incarnate and then there are so many Religion = Government reasons why all others get a pass.

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It's unlikely that the people who drop a pamphlet in a cache are going to protest soldier funerals.

 

- Elle

It is also unlikely that someone that drops a pamphlet in a cache is going to try to chop your head off if you complain. :anibad:

 

I'm not complaining about the pamphlets, but I am complaining about the advertising they project, which is banned from Groundspeak regulations.

What does this mean. If they were blank you would be ok with them? If the religious pamphlets didn't say anything about religion you would be ok with them? You are not complaining about the pamphlets, just what they say.

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The government in these areas who kill people who don't believe is a government that lives for the religion. If one people goes against the norm, it is similar to what a revolutionary is. If they go on doing their own thing, they have a chance to inform other people about what is going on and their beliefs. They use religion as an excuse to execute people because they don't want anyone going against them. These are not governments with democracies and free speech and all the wonderful privileges we get here. It's not an excuse, they just use religion as a means of government. Religion = Government, Government = religion in these areas. However, any religion can be used and manipulated to fit any government's agenda. I would really like to have an opportunity to read a pre-King James bible, but I haven't been able to find one . . . Maybe if I could get into the Vatican City archives . . .

I still don't understand why that would make them exempt from your statement about Christian churches. I also don't understand the Religion = Government explanation. Just because the church runs the country doesn't mean it isn't a church. And it isn't just their own citizens that are subject to this. Remember the cartoons that were critical of their God. Remember Solomon Rushdie. It just seems that it is very popular these days to believe that the Christian church is evil incarnate and then there are so many Religion = Government reasons why all others get a pass.

 

I don't believe the Christian church is an evil incarnate. I believe all religions who persecute non-believers are going against their purpose, including the ones who kill those who don't go along with it. I'm saying the Christian church is one of the biggest examples of repeated persecution to nonbelievers, and the persecution is very WIDELY accepted. I personally cannot compare the Christian church's persecutions to those of a small-area religious government persecuting non-believing revolutionaries who could change the government with a big enough group. (And help from outside groups they may contact.) They don't get a pass, they just can't compare because they don't affect a wide enough area, or as many people as Christianity had and they weren't even a part of this discussion until you wanted to argue about them. These countries don't send missionaries to different parts of the world to convert them to their beliefs. I'm not saying what they are doing is right, it's just no one has been able to stand up to them in the way it needs to be done, which is NOT war.

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It's unlikely that the people who drop a pamphlet in a cache are going to protest soldier funerals.

 

- Elle

It is also unlikely that someone that drops a pamphlet in a cache is going to try to chop your head off if you complain. :anibad:

 

I'm not complaining about the pamphlets, but I am complaining about the advertising they project, which is banned from Groundspeak regulations.

What does this mean. If they were blank you would be ok with them? If the religious pamphlets didn't say anything about religion you would be ok with them? You are not complaining about the pamphlets, just what they say.

 

If they were blank pieces of paper folded into pamphlets, I would be perfectly fine with them because I would think they were extra log books someone had traded, lol.

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If there wasn't a policy against advertising, I wouldn't have a problem with religious-advocating literature in the caches. I am fine with crosses, rosaries, etc. They tell something about the people who have been there. How do I know someone didn't tell the members of their church about geocaching, and certain members decided it would be an excellent way to recruit new parishoners?

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