Religious material in caches

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

I would email the owner about it. If they say the cache is supposed to have those in it then submit a needs archived log. From the guidelines

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

You would attempt to punish the cache owner for the papers you find in his cache - even if they were placed there by someone else? You have already been to the cache, got your smiley and presumably would not be returning. This is a perfect example of the intolerance that everyone has been talking about in this post...What possible harm has occured to you to cause you to file the "needs archived"?

[GeoNaturist]

I think its rude to call someone rude when they are trying to help you.

Face it, there are plenty of such fairytales to go around - how is pestering people to believe yours "helping" them?

 

If you're so confident in yourself why don't step out of that fairy tale sock puppet in which you're hiding.

 

Fairy tale sock puppet? Hiding? LOL!

 

Hide from what? I think you have me confused with someone else.

 

I have no need to hide nor do I need a sock puppet in order to tell the truth.

Edited August 9, 2008 by GeoNaturist

[+Firespinner]

I would email the owner about it. If they say the cache is supposed to have those in it then submit a needs archived log. From the guidelines

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

You would attempt to punish the cache owner for the papers you find in his cache - even if they were placed there by someone else? You have already been to the cache, got your smiley and presumably would not be returning. This is a perfect example of the intolerance that everyone has been talking about in this post...What possible harm has occured to you to cause you to file the "needs archived"?

 

If you carefully read what they wrote it says "I would email the owner about it. IF THEY SAY THE CACHE IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE THOSE IN IT, THEN SUMBIT A NEEDS ARCHIVED LOG. " (for the record....not yelling, just put it in all caps to make it stand out). The purpose of that woudl be to find out if the cache is supposed to be pushing an agenda. THere are several around here that have been stuffed with tracts by cachers without the cache owners knowledge, and in that case, yes the cache owner should not have their cache archived. The point was probably to archive those caches which are intentionally set to push an agenda, which against the rules. There are a few around here which DO have tons of religious tracts in them and then when you look....surprise...they're set on church grounds. The church doesn't mention that its hidden at a church on the log page, they dont' mention religion at all so they could get around the reviewer and the rules, but then they keep their cache stuffed with tracts. It is clear that those caches were put with the purpose to prostalitize. If someone emails the cache owner and tells them that the cache was stuffed with tracts, and the cache owner SAYS THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THERE, then it is obviously a cache that breaks the rules.

[+baloo&bd]

I would email the owner about it. If they say the cache is supposed to have those in it then submit a needs archived log. From the guidelines

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

The reviewer will most likely point out the highlighted text. This applies to the cache, not the contents. Even the guidelines regarding contents won't apply to something this harmless, otherwise the are going to have to start policing the offensive yellow ribbon magnets, stickers etc. as well as equally offensive confederate flags. OH, and don't forget the Teletubbies, they offend a segment of the population as well.

 

Come to think of it, ammo cans are offensive to those that think any given war is wrong. Patches with the peace simple can be considered equally offensive by many due to it's history, both pre and post 1950's. GPS's represent a huge problem to those that think money spent on those satellites is mis-appropriated. Both are offensive to certain segments of the Amish community. Get those buttons out that mention unions or the magnets from banks.

 

Come on, it's a harmless piece of paper that is easily ignored as are the listed items above that all of us to one degree or another daily. Quit getting your panties in a bunch trying to be PC.

[+KBI]

Who's up for some quotes?

 

 

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart"

- H.L. Mencken

 

"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."

- Mark Twain

 

"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."

- Richard Dawkins

 

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

- Albert Einstein

 

"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike."

- Delos B. McKown

 

"They said God was on high and he controlled the world and therefore we must pray against Satan. Well, if God controls the world, he controls Satan. For me, religion was full of misstatements and reaches of logic that I just couldn't agree with."

- Gene Roddenberry

 

"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."

- Christopher Hitchens

 

"Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them."

- Peter Ustinov

 

"Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion."

- Jon Stewart

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

I would email the owner about it. If they say the cache is supposed to have those in it then submit a needs archived log. From the guidelines

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

 

You would attempt to punish the cache owner for the papers you find in his cache - even if they were placed there by someone else? You have already been to the cache, got your smiley and presumably would not be returning. This is a perfect example of the intolerance that everyone has been talking about in this post...What possible harm has occured to you to cause you to file the "needs archived"?

 

If you carefully read what they wrote it says "I would email the owner about it. IF THEY SAY THE CACHE IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE THOSE IN IT, THEN SUMBIT A NEEDS ARCHIVED LOG. " (for the record....not yelling, just put it in all caps to make it stand out). The purpose of that woudl be to find out if the cache is supposed to be pushing an agenda. THere are several around here that have been stuffed with tracts by cachers without the cache owners knowledge, and in that case, yes the cache owner should not have their cache archived. The point was probably to archive those caches which are intentionally set to push an agenda, which against the rules. There are a few around here which DO have tons of religious tracts in them and then when you look....surprise...they're set on church grounds. The church doesn't mention that its hidden at a church on the log page, they dont' mention religion at all so they could get around the reviewer and the rules, but then they keep their cache stuffed with tracts. It is clear that those caches were put with the purpose to prostalitize. If someone emails the cache owner and tells them that the cache was stuffed with tracts, and the cache owner SAYS THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO BE IN THERE, then it is obviously a cache that breaks the rules.

 

At the risk of "what if"ing this to death let me make sure where proper reporting of an inappropriate cache ends and where an attempt to enforce one's own will on what is contained in a cache begins.

 

Does a cache on church property - whether it contains religious material or not constitue a violation of the rules?

 

Does this same cache containing some religious material along with other non-religious material constitute a violation of the rules?

 

If you find a cache with religious materials in it and you contact the owner and he says he didn't put it there but doesn't care or mind if its there and will not make a trip to remove it then will the "needs archived" need to be posted to expunge this non-complying cache?

 

I think you can see that this is a slippery slope - how much power will you give to those of us who are intolerant of any level of religious speech? My point all along in this thread is that a piece of paper with words written on it is harmless - it has no power that the reader doesn't give it. If is is all wet and mushy and ruining the cache then remove it because of that - otherwise just ignore it.

 

I hope that we won't endorse forcing cache owners to respond to "needs archiving" posts just because we don't personally believe the words we find written on a piece paper we happen to find in the ammo can. I guess that if I went to a cache that I found to be something or somewhere I didn't expect or agree with I would make the decision to either leave without opening it or just pick through the paper until I find the log and get my smiley. I am certainly not going to presume to appoint myself a cache policeman over a piece of paper.

Edited August 9, 2008 by CrippledBlindSquirrel

[+Snoogans]

Who's up for some quotes?

 

"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."

- Mark Twain

 

 

Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Twain

 

Words to live by.

[+flask]

 

I can't help but wonder WHY there is so much of this printed propaganda (let's call it what it is) for Christianity, but little or none for Islam, Buddhism, or even Confucianism.

 

it's because other faiths (mostly) do not proselytize. a great deal of christians do not proselytize as well.

[Scamp]

I've actually seen plenty of printed materials for other non-Christian religions, thought I haven't had anybody shove one in my hand on the subway like people do with the chick tracts. The Thai restaurant I frequent to has a whole bunch of Buddhist phamphlets in a rack right next to their take-out menus, so you can take your pad thai with a side order of dharma.

[+izce.nine]

My views on this are as follows: This is a GEOCACHING forum, and a sport. Do I care that there are religious materials in someone else's Cache, no. Do I think that it is out of place, yes, as much as I think that corporate sponsorship is out of place in the sport of Geocaching. I will make it clear when I hide a cache that any material promoting religion will be out of place, and be removed from my cache, and the person who placed it will have their find deleted. Why? It disenfranchises anyone who finds it offensive to find such items in a cache. I WANT everyone to come to my cache regardless of race, creed, or religion (including worshippers of the dreaded spaghetti monster). Note that I have kept my religious beliefs out of this post. Not the place or time for conversion or religious arguments really.

[+traildad]

I would email the owner about it. If they say the cache is supposed to have those in it then submit a needs archived log. From the guidelines

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

I would be curious to see what tptb would say about this. I understand the rule does not permit a cache page to promote agendas. Would we be allowed to own an innocuous cache filled with material promoting any agenda? Would it be allowed to fill the cache with CITO bags for example?

[+traildad]

My views on this are as follows: This is a GEOCACHING forum, and a sport. Do I care that there are religious materials in someone else's Cache, no. Do I think that it is out of place, yes, as much as I think that corporate sponsorship is out of place in the sport of Geocaching. I will make it clear when I hide a cache that any material promoting religion will be out of place, and be removed from my cache, and the person who placed it will have their find deleted. Why? It disenfranchises anyone who finds it offensive to find such items in a cache. I WANT everyone to come to my cache regardless of race, creed, or religion (including worshippers of the dreaded spaghetti monster). Note that I have kept my religious beliefs out of this post. Not the place or time for conversion or religious arguments really.

This seems reasonable. When you do hide your first cache will it only target religious material? By the way if you make it clear that anyone that leaves material promoting religion will have their find deleted, won't that disenfranchise them? Is it really possible to make a world where no one will ever be offended? Why can't the followers of the dreaded spaghetti monster allow others to disbelieve without being offended? The world works better when, instead of trying to silence those with whom we disagree, we simply add our voice to the discussion. Instead of being offended by finding a piece of paper, put one of you own in with it.

 

PS I am offended by your avatar. Please change it before logging any of my caches or your find will be deleted.

Edited August 9, 2008 by traildad

[+gof1]

My views on this are as follows: This is a GEOCACHING forum, and a sport. Do I care that there are religious materials in someone else's Cache, no. Do I think that it is out of place, yes, as much as I think that corporate sponsorship is out of place in the sport of Geocaching. I will make it clear when I hide a cache that any material promoting religion will be out of place, and be removed from my cache, and the person who placed it will have their find deleted. Why? It disenfranchises anyone who finds it offensive to find such items in a cache. I WANT everyone to come to my cache regardless of race, creed, or religion (including worshippers of the dreaded spaghetti monster). Note that I have kept my religious beliefs out of this post. Not the place or time for conversion or religious arguments really.

 

Leaving religion out of it you do realize that by placing restrictions on logging your cache it becomes an ALR cache? That means it needs to be listed as a mystery/puzzle cache.

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

My views on this are as follows: This is a GEOCACHING forum, and a sport. Do I care that there are religious materials in someone else's Cache, no. Do I think that it is out of place, yes, as much as I think that corporate sponsorship is out of place in the sport of Geocaching. I will make it clear when I hide a cache that any material promoting religion will be out of place, and be removed from my cache, and the person who placed it will have their find deleted. Why? It disenfranchises anyone who finds it offensive to find such items in a cache. I WANT everyone to come to my cache regardless of race, creed, or religion (including worshippers of the dreaded spaghetti monster). Note that I have kept my religious beliefs out of this post. Not the place or time for conversion or religious arguments really.

 

You sure are going to be working hard...checking up on your cache everytime some posts a "find it" just so you can identify the Cretin that put that "God Loves You" pamphlet in there and delete their smilie.

[+izce.nine]

 

You sure are going to be working hard...checking up on your cache everytime some posts a "find it" just so you can identify the Cretin that put that "God Loves You" pamphlet in there and delete their smilie.

 

Yeah, but if it IS stated in the cache, I have the "Groundspeak given right" to do so don't I? Look, I am not against religion by any means, I just don't think it has its place in Caching, so I am asking it be left out. I don't think its a whole lot to ask. Play the game nothing more.

[+wkmccall]

Well, would you be offended if there was an Obama 08 sticker in a cache? I doubt it. No different than religous tracks. They are fine

 

Ditto

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

 

You sure are going to be working hard...checking up on your cache everytime some posts a "find it" just so you can identify the Cretin that put that "God Loves You" pamphlet in there and delete their smilie.

 

Yeah, but if it IS stated in the cache, I have the "Groundspeak given right" to do so don't I? Look, I am not against religion by any means, I just don't think it has its place in Caching, so I am asking it be left out. I don't think its a whole lot to ask. Play the game nothing more.

 

COOL! - Let us all know how that works out for you!

[+traildad]

 

Yeah, but if it IS stated in the cache,

Do you mean stated in the cache page description? That sounds like an anti "religious agenda" agenda cache. I would guess that a cache would be disallowed for an agenda, even if the agenda is to prevent other people from expressing their agendas.

[+izce.nine]

 

Do you mean stated in the cache page description? That sounds like an anti "religious agenda" agenda cache. I would guess that a cache would be disallowed for an agenda, even if the agenda is to prevent other people from expressing their agendas.

 

But its exactly the opposite of that. Quit trolling.

[+KBI]

I will make it clear when I hide a cache that any material promoting religion will be out of place, and be removed from my cache, and the person who placed it will have their find deleted. Why? It disenfranchises anyone who finds it offensive to find such items in a cache.

I disagree.

 

If anyone is offended by a religious tract that’s their problem, not yours.

 

Your use of the word “disenfranchise” implies that you believe a cacher’s very rights are being violated by the mere existence of benign reading material in the cache container.

 

Exactly which rights do you believe are jeopardized by the presence of religious pamphlets? Do you believe there is an inherent right not to have to look at pamphlets? Do you believe there is a natural right not to have one’s beliefs challenged, or to even hear about the existence of different religions?

 

Do you believe there is an inalienable right not to have to think?

 

Seriously, it takes very little thought on the part of a cache finder to recognize a tract for what it is, and then to either read it and consider its message ... or to completely ignore it. Do you think so little of the intelligence and personal convictions of those who would seek your cache that you feel the need to protect them from mere ideas?

 

Anybody who is so afraid of any new idea that he cannot risk exposing his convictions and beliefs to question has very weak beliefs indeed. If that is how you see me, and all other cachers who might seek your cache, then I would find your disrespect for my ability to think for myself far more offensive than anything any religious believer could ever write. At least the prosthelitizers are giving be the benefit of the doubt when it comes to assuming I might have a willingness to hear a differing point of view. You, on the other hand, wish to punish other cachers for the 'crime' of leaving a piece of paper, one that I am free to either read or ignore.

 

I WANT everyone to come to my cache regardless of race, creed, or religion (including worshippers of the dreaded spaghetti monster).

I can predict with high confidence that your cache is going to receive very little traffic if you aggressively exercise your "Groundspeak given right" to delete the find logs of everyone whose only offense is the placement of benign reading material in your cache container.

[+gof1]

I'm not sure but I don't think he was trolling, more like funn'n ya.

[+KBI]

Do you mean stated in the cache page description? That sounds like an anti "religious agenda" agenda cache. I would guess that a cache would be disallowed for an agenda, even if the agenda is to prevent other people from expressing their agendas.

But its exactly the opposite of that. Quit trolling.

I think Traildad made an excellent and insightful point. An opposite agenda is still an agenda.

 

If you launch a personal crusade against religious publications, and then make it clear in your cache description that you dare any cacher to leave a tract in your cache at risk of having their find log deleted – that sounds like an agenda cache to me.

 

It'll be interesting to see if that one gets past the reviewers.

[+flask]

i'm only slightly bothered by political propaganda. it's just so much trash but i don't find it offensive to the degree i find religious materials intended to proselytize. i think this is why:

 

suppose you support mcbama '08.

 

the purpose of campaign materials is usually aimed at getting the vote and getting out the vote. while i might think you're just wrong about mcbama this year, the materials that are provided to me by the campaign will be limited to the election and not passing judgement on your innermost soul.

 

i may ask you to support my candidate or even criticize your candidate, but there's very little campaign promotion that threatens you with hell. if i ask you to support my candidate, i am asking you for a favor. i am not assuming that i've done you the greatest favor in the world by pointing out that mcbama is a loser.

 

since i've only just begun to think about why i don't find political propaganda as offensive as religious propaganda, i am not certain that i have thought it out thoroughly and come to a complete conclusion.

 

related to another post or two:

 

by "religious propaganda", i mean materials intended to proselytize, and also material intended to foment hatred against another religion or group of people.

 

i am completely unoffended by informational materials intended simply to help people understand who you are and what you believe. there's kind of a grey area there, but i think there's room for lesser-known or misunderstood sects to simply explain who they are and what they stand for.

 

like the information on buddhism by the take-out menus. if i were a buddhist in america, i would want people to understand my beliefs in the interests of promoting neighborliness. it can be hard to be a non-christian in this country sometimes (depending on your location) and information is your friend.

 

i guess i draw the line between "you can reach us here if you want" and "you should join us if you know what's good for you".

[+izce.nine]

I will make it clear when I hide a cache that any material promoting religion will be out of place, and be removed from my cache, and the person who placed it will have their find deleted. Why? It disenfranchises anyone who finds it offensive to find such items in a cache.

I disagree.

 

If anyone is offended by a religious tract that’s their problem, not yours.

 

Your use of the word “disenfranchise” implies that you believe a cacher’s very rights are being violated by the mere existence of benign reading material in the cache container.

 

Exactly which rights do you believe are jeopardized by the presence of religious pamphlets? Do you believe there is an inherent right not to have to look at pamphlets? Do you believe there is a natural right not to have one’s beliefs challenged, or to even hear about the existence of different religions?

 

Do you believe there is an inalienable right not to have to think?

 

Seriously, it takes very little thought on the part of a cache finder to recognize a tract for what it is, and then to either read it and consider its message ... or to completely ignore it. Do you think so little of the intelligence and personal convictions of those who would seek your cache that you feel the need to protect them from mere ideas?

 

Anybody who is so afraid of any new idea that he cannot risk exposing his convictions and beliefs to question has very weak beliefs indeed. If that is how you see me, and all other cachers who might seek your cache, then I would find your disrespect for my ability to think for myself far more offensive than anything any religious believer could ever write. At least the prosthelitizers are giving be the benefit of the doubt when it comes to assuming I might have a willingness to hear a differing point of view. You, on the other hand, wish to punish other cachers for the 'crime' of leaving a piece of paper, one that I am free to either read or ignore.

 

I WANT everyone to come to my cache regardless of race, creed, or religion (including worshippers of the dreaded spaghetti monster).

I can predict with high confidence that your cache is going to receive very little traffic if you aggressively exercise your "Groundspeak given right" to delete the find logs of everyone whose only offense is the placement of benign reading material in your cache container.

 

Well whatever. I guess I am as "intolerant" as they come, and don't understand the need to recruit for your religion in a sport that many participate in. I am done with this conversation and feel that you have projected a negative image on me that I don't necessarily deserve. I have YET to place a cache, and already have been labeled. If someone wants to come to religion I seriously DOUBT some material in a cache is going to be what brings them to it. Since it is my cache I believe that it is my right as a cache placer to ask that materials not be put in there that do not directly relate to the game. Just like I might be a little mad if I got the book of Mormon with my copy of Risk. I do admit deleting finds might be a bit extreme.

 

I am done with this conversation because I have my feelings about this subject, and have kept my religious beliefs to myself, only to be painted as an anti-religious crusader, which was not my intent. Flame away

[+KBI]

Well whatever. I guess I am as "intolerant" as they come ...

I respect your honesty. More than you might think.

 

I ... feel that you have projected a negative image on me that I don't necessarily deserve. I have YET to place a cache, and already have been labeled.

You are the one who expressed the idea that your fellow cachers need you to actively protect them from religious information.

 

You are the one who threatened to delete logs for mere non-compliance with your personal agenda.

 

Nobody "projected" any image onto you. You painted that picture with your own brush.

 

Since it is my cache I believe that it is my right as a cache placer to ask that materials not be put in there that do not directly relate to the game.

Yes, but is it also your right to summarily delete legitimate find logs just because you don’t happen to like the flavor of guideline-compliant trade items that get left behind?

 

I do admit deleting finds might be a bit extreme.

I agree – and by admitting so, you have demonstrated a level of maturity that places you in the upper crust of respectability among forum participants – in my opinion, anyway.

 

I am done with this conversation because I have my feelings about this subject, and have kept my religious beliefs to myself, only to be painted as an anti-religious crusader, which was not my intent. Flame away.

Don’t expect any mud slung from me. I don’t see you as an anti-religious crusader. I just think you should be willing to consider a more passive response in your efforts to express distaste for propaganda, or at least one that doesn’t involve punishing your fellow cachers by mucking around with their online caching history.

 

It appears you have now re-thunk that inadvisable idea. Well done.

[+TrailGators]

suppose you support mcbama '08.

 

the purpose of campaign materials is usually aimed at getting the vote and getting out the vote. while i might think you're just wrong about mcbama this year, the materials that are provided to me by the campaign will be limited to the election and not passing judgement on your innermost soul.

 

i may ask you to support my candidate or even criticize your candidate, but there's very little campaign promotion that threatens you with hell. if i ask you to support my candidate, i am asking you for a favor. i am not assuming that i've done you the greatest favor in the world by pointing out that mcbama is a loser.

 

since i've only just begun to think about why i don't find political propaganda as offensive as religious propaganda, i am not certain that i have thought it out thoroughly and come to a complete conclusion.

Putting that carp in caches would be an "obamanation!"

[+KBI]

i may ask you to support my candidate or even criticize your candidate, but there's very little campaign promotion that threatens you with hell.

 

.....

 

i guess i draw the line between "you can reach us here if you want" and "you should join us if you know what's good for you".

I see your point, but I would still place both types of propaganda in the non-threatening category.

 

A tract reader is unlikely to feel threatened by promises of eternal damnation if he either (1) already has confidence in his own beliefs regarding religion, salvation and hell, or (2) does not believe in the existence of hell in the first place.

 

If the tract reader is insecure enough about his beliefs that he does feel threatened, then I say that is the fault of the tract reader, not the fault of the writer or placer of the tract.

 

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

- Albert Einstein

 

I tend to recoil from the attitude that people need to be protected from mere ideas. I don’t care for policies designed to control how (or whether) people think. I prefer to encourage people to consider all available information, and then decide for themselves what they think and believe. Anything short of that kind of open-mindedness tends to produce invalid beliefs, don't you think?

Edited August 9, 2008 by KBI

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

i may ask you to support my candidate or even criticize your candidate, but there's very little campaign promotion that threatens you with hell.

 

.....

 

i guess i draw the line between "you can reach us here if you want" and "you should join us if you know what's good for you".

I see your point, but I would still place both types of propaganda in the non-threatening category.

 

A tract reader is unlikely to feel threatened by promises of eternal damnation if he either (1) already has confidence in his own beliefs regarding religion, salvation and hell, or (2) does not believe in the existence of hell in the first place.

 

If the tract reader is insecure enough about his beliefs that he does feel threatened, then I say that is the fault of the tract reader, not the fault of the writer or placer of the tract.

 

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

- Albert Einstein

 

I tend to recoil from the attitude that people need to be protected from mere ideas. I don’t care for policies designed to control how (or whether) people think. I prefer to encourage people to consider all available information, and then decide for themselves what they think and believe. Anything short of that kind of open-mindedness tends to produce invalid beliefs, don't you think?

 

Exactly...The power resides completely with the reader. Any curiosity, agreement, disagreement, revulsion, or conviction is internal to the reader. All anyone has to do to avoid any effect – one way or the other – from written materials is to not pick them up and read them. No person should have the right or responsibility to protect anyone from a third person’s opinion.

[+flask]

i wouldn't for a second think that people need to be protected from this rudeness.

 

i do however support community standards that cause people not to engage in this rudeness.

 

there's no rule to prevent you from addressing everyone you meet as "hey, jerkface!", but people largely recognize this as rude and for the most part don't do it.

[+traildad]

i wouldn't for a second think that people need to be protected from this rudeness.

 

i do however support community standards that cause people not to engage in this rudeness.

 

there's no rule to prevent you from addressing everyone you meet as "hey, jerkface!", but people largely recognize this as rude and for the most part don't do it.

apples and oranges

[+KBI]

i wouldn't for a second think that people need to be protected from this rudeness.

 

i do however support community standards that cause people not to engage in this rudeness.

 

there's no rule to prevent you from addressing everyone you meet as "hey, jerkface!", but people largely recognize this as rude and for the most part don't do it.

Agreed, but: One is not likely to see a need for self control if one does not view one's own behavior as rude.

 

Those who actively promote their religion, no matter how aggressively, for the most part don’t see themselves as being rude. Quite the opposite: For the most part they see themselves as doing you a HUGE favor. While it might be tempting to view the behavior as rude, keep in mind that they see it instead as throwing you a lifeline. They genuinely believe you are spiritually drowning, even though they fully understand that you don’t happen to believe you need any rescuing.

 

Like you, I see no need for such rescue myself, but when those lifelines get thrown at me and I feel myself beginning to become annoyed I try to remember the spirit of the underlying intent, and it makes it easier to put up with. Those folks sincerely want to spread what they believe to be critically important good news. As long as they stop when I say “no, thanks” and they move on down the road, I can tolerate it.

 

Same with religious reading material in geocaches. Those tracts can only annoy me if I choose to let them. I much prefer to simply ignore them – or, depending on how wackily they’re written, enjoy a chuckle.

[+flask]

 

Those who actively promote their religion, no matter how aggressively, for the most part don’t see themselves as being rude. Quite the opposite: For the most part they see themselves as doing you a HUGE favor. While it might be tempting to view the behavior as rude, keep in mind that they see it instead as throwing you a lifeline. They genuinely believe you are spiritually drowning, even though they fully understand that you don’t happen to believe you need any rescuing.

 

 

that right there is exactly WHY i speak up about it. there is absolutely no reason on this planet why they should continue to bask uneducated in their own flatulence.

[+KBI]

Those who actively promote their religion, no matter how aggressively, for the most part don’t see themselves as being rude. Quite the opposite: For the most part they see themselves as doing you a HUGE favor. While it might be tempting to view the behavior as rude, keep in mind that they see it instead as throwing you a lifeline. They genuinely believe you are spiritually drowning, even though they fully understand that you don’t happen to believe you need any rescuing.

that right there is exactly WHY i speak up about it. there is absolutely no reason on this planet why they should continue to bask uneducated in their own flatulence.

LOL!!

 

As I said, that’s not the way they see it. Looking at it from their point of view might help. Doing so doesn’t require that you accept or believe anything they have to say, or that you even pretend to; it only requires you to understand that they sincerely mean to help you, not to offend you.

 

No offense is intended. Taking offense isn’t necessary, and in my opinion is not only pointless, but potentially dangerous. Wars have begun over people taking such offense.

 

 

... and that still doesn't explain why you should allow the printed tracts in gecocaches to bother you.

 

Telling a charged-up, salvation-inspired theo-salesman (who is convinced he HAS to save you to prevent going to hell himself) to shut up isn't always easy. Telling an inert piece of paper to shut up, on the other hand, isn't all that difficult.

[+flask]

 

No offense is intended. Taking offense isn’t necessary, and in my opinion is not only pointless, but potentially dangerous. Wars have begun over people taking such offense.

 

 

 

suppose i believe that ornamental grasses are far superior to flowers and i dig up my neighbors pansies in order to plant some nice wild grasses.

 

if i MEAN to help him, is it ok? you know, as long as i don't mean offense?

 

or what if i NEED somewhere to take a dump and my bathroom is tied up? if i don't mean to offend him, can i do it on his lawn?

 

what if i think he just needs help to get rid of what i consider to be a junk car on his property? surely if i just have that cadillac fleetwood towed for him, he will thank me.

 

it is precisely the arrogance of spiritual busybodies believing that they're doing you a favor that needs to be brought up short on a choke collar. they NEED to be informed that their claptrap is unwanted, unwelcome, and rude. not MEANING to be rude does not excuse them.

 

in many ways their assumption that they ARE doing you a favor is the rudest thing of all.

 

if i wanted to be a smartypants, i could just say that by educating them, i'm doing them a great service.

[+traildad]

 

suppose i believe that ornamental grasses are far superior to flowers and i dig up my neighbors pansies in order to plant some nice wild grasses.

 

if i MEAN to help him, is it ok? you know, as long as i don't mean offense?

 

or what if i NEED somewhere to take a dump and my bathroom is tied up? if i don't mean to offend him, can i do it on his lawn?

 

what if i think he just needs help to get rid of what i consider to be a junk car on his property? surely if i just have that cadillac fleetwood towed for him, he will thank me.

 

it is precisely the arrogance of spiritual busybodies believing that they're doing you a favor that needs to be brought up short on a choke collar. they NEED to be informed that their claptrap is unwanted, unwelcome, and rude. not MEANING to be rude does not excuse them.

 

in many ways their assumption that they ARE doing you a favor is the rudest thing of all.

 

if i wanted to be a smartypants, i could just say that by educating them, i'm doing them a great service.

This might be a reasonable comparison if instead of leaving info in a cache they were waiting there to kidnap you and take you to a church to be saved.

 

You can make a comparison of leaving info in a cache to leaving a new car brochure for the person with the old cadillac not having it towed.

 

So if you see someone about to jump off of a bridge would try to "save" them or would you think to your self, who am I to judge their life and just walk on by?

[PastorJon]

 

-snip-

 

 

flask...

 

I sure hope I get to meet you someday... thanks for sharing your story!

[+TrailGators]

Wow, this is one of the most venomous threads I have read in a long time. Why is there so much hate being vented when all you have to do is ignore a piece of paper?

[+Snow Birds]

I am a confirmed atheist. When I see a religious tract or pamphlet, I give it the same regard as a "Vote for Obama" sticker...I ignore it. I will no sooner vote for Obama as I will be converted by a piece of religious...uh...stuff. And nobody will convince me to change my mind on either!

 

When I meet a religion pusher on the street, I will politely take his/her tract, smile, then drop it in the nearest trash can. Problem solved. No argument. No hurt feelings.

 

When I come across something of a religious nature in a cache, I just ignore it. At least it's better than the pocketknife I found in a cache in Arizona! To me, anything religious is just as worthless as a chewed piece of gum, a dead battery, or a broken Happy Meal toy! I don't have a use for any of them.

 

I very seldom swap swag. As long as the pamphlets don't prevent me from finding and signing the log, then I don't really care if they are there or not. My purpose is to find the treasure and sign the log...period. I'm not there to get an education in religion, politics, the opposite sex, hunting laws, or anything else. All I want is to claim that I found it. If the cache is inside a church, laying in plain sight on the altar, I will sign the log and leave. I won't say a prayer. I will claim that I found it though.

 

If it is a Muslim plan on how to destroy America, then I would burn it on the spot! If it is a Muslim tract trying to convince me to read the Kuran, then I'll ignore it. (Please feel free to substitute Christian, Jewish, Morman, Buddhism, Satanism, Paganism, etc).

[+flask]

 

-snip-

 

 

flask...

 

I sure hope I get to meet you someday... thanks for sharing your story!

 

you wouldn't believe the half of it.

 

i'll be in ogunquit second week of september.

[PastorJon]

 

-snip-

 

 

flask...

 

I sure hope I get to meet you someday... thanks for sharing your story!

 

you wouldn't believe the half of it.

 

i'll be in ogunquit second week of september.

 

That's the same weekend of our annual church picnic... would the offer of free food entice you to make the sidetrip to Cape Elizabeth? (Aside from boasting the oldest cache in Maine?)

 

[+flask]

 

-snip-

 

 

flask...

 

I sure hope I get to meet you someday... thanks for sharing your story!

 

you wouldn't believe the half of it.

 

i'll be in ogunquit second week of september.

 

That's the same weekend of our annual church picnic... would the offer of free food entice you to make the sidetrip to Cape Elizabeth? (Aside from boasting the oldest cache in Maine?)

 

 

distance?

[+KBI]

suppose i believe that ornamental grasses are far superior to flowers and i dig up my neighbors pansies in order to plant some nice wild grasses.

 

if i MEAN to help him, is it ok? you know, as long as i don't mean offense?

 

or what if i NEED somewhere to take a dump and my bathroom is tied up? if i don't mean to offend him, can i do it on his lawn?

 

what if i think he just needs help to get rid of what i consider to be a junk car on his property? surely if i just have that cadillac fleetwood towed for him, he will thank me.

 

it is precisely the arrogance of spiritual busybodies believing that they're doing you a favor that needs to be brought up short on a choke collar. they NEED to be informed that their claptrap is unwanted, unwelcome, and rude. not MEANING to be rude does not excuse them.

 

in many ways their assumption that they ARE doing you a favor is the rudest thing of all.

 

if i wanted to be a smartypants, i could just say that by educating them, i'm doing them a great service.

You are unlikely to convince me that willfully damaging or stealing someone’s property is the moral equivalent of leaving a paper flyer in a geocache.

 

If you leave a tract in my geocache, I can tolerate it easily.

 

If you take a dump on my lawn ... well, while I might find it entertaining, my wife may or may not invite you in for coffee.

 

If you take away my car without asking, expect criminal charges.

 

 

… and you STILL haven’t explained WHY you choose to allow those paper flyers to send you into a livid collar-choking frenzy when you could just as easily ignore them, shove them aside long enough to sign the cache logbook, and then forget about them.

 

 

(Am I the only one who see the irony here: that a devoutly religious person is ranting angrily against religious propaganda, while, I, an agnostic, find myself defending the tracts? I love these forum debates. )

[+flask]

 

 

… and you STILL haven’t explained WHY you choose to allow those paper flyers to send you into a livid collar-choking frenzy when you could just as easily ignore them, shove them aside long enough to sign the cache logbook, and then forget about them.

 

 

perhaps you misunderstand my level of irritation over this. just because i have a strong opinion about spiritual busybodies doesn't mean it takes up that much of my thought.

 

i have time to argue it here because i happen to be at my desk, waiting for something else. i do this primarily for my own amusement.

 

edit: add expressing an idea forcefully does not necessarily qualify as anger.

Edited August 10, 2008 by flask

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

A couple heard on the news that a flood was expected and discussed whether they should pack their valuables and head for high ground. The wife said "God will protect us, we're ok" so they stayed put. During the night the water rose and upon awakening the couple discovered that the flood was up to their front porch level. Too late to leave on their own they begin moving their valuables upstairs. Two men pull up in a boat and tell them to get in for a ride to safety. Having made up their minds they reply "Thank you, but we're fine, God won't let anything bad happen to us" and the boat leaves. By that afternoon the water is up to the second floor and the couple is standing on the roof of their house. A helicopter comes to rescue them but the couple waves it away, secure in their belief that God will stop the waters' rise before it actually threatens them. Dark comes and still the water rises, it's lapping at their feet when they decide maybe it's time to leave. A log floats by and, not seeing any other choice, they grab it and hang on. The log rolls, they lose their grip and drown.

 

They get to St. Peter's Gate furious with God for letting them down. St. Peter says "God helps those who help themselves... he sent you a warning, a rowboat and a helicopter, what more could he have done?"

 

Maybe those tracts are like the warning, rowboat and helicopter... there if you recognize and choose to use them but you are free to ignore them!

Edited August 10, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

[Mushtang]

 

-snip-

 

 

flask...

 

I sure hope I get to meet you someday... thanks for sharing your story!

 

you wouldn't believe the half of it.

 

i'll be in ogunquit second week of september.

 

That's the same weekend of our annual church picnic... would the offer of free food entice you to make the sidetrip to Cape Elizabeth? (Aside from boasting the oldest cache in Maine?)

 

 

distance?

Just a short walk down the trail.

[+KBI]

perhaps you misunderstand my level of irritation over this.

... and perhaps you misunderstand my question. You keep dancing around it, but you STILL haven't answered it.

 

If you'd rather not answer, that's fine. Keep your reasons to yourself if you like. I was just curious.

[+flask]

 

-snip-

 

 

flask...

 

I sure hope I get to meet you someday... thanks for sharing your story!

 

you wouldn't believe the half of it.

 

i'll be in ogunquit second week of september.

 

That's the same weekend of our annual church picnic... would the offer of free food entice you to make the sidetrip to Cape Elizabeth? (Aside from boasting the oldest cache in Maine?)

 

 

distance?

Just a short walk down the trail.

 

oh, you're funny.

 

a thing like a church picnic is perfect for me. i can have a look around under cover of anonymity before i decide to "come out".

[+TrailGators]

A couple heard on the news that a flood was expected and discussed whether they should pack their valuables and head for high ground. The wife said "God will protect us, we're ok" so they stayed put. During the night the water rose and upon awakening the couple discovered that the flood was up to their front porch level. Too late to leave on their own they begin moving their valuables upstairs. Two men pull up in a boat and tell them to get in for a ride to safety. Having made up their minds they reply "Thank you, but we're fine, God won't let anything bad happen to us" and the boat leaves. By that afternoon the water is up to the second floor and the couple is standing on the roof of their house. A helicopter comes to rescue them but the couple waves it away, secure in their belief that God will stop the waters' rise before it actually threatens them. Dark comes and still the water rises, it's lapping at their feet when they decide maybe it's time to leave. A log floats by and, not seeing any other choice, they grab it and hang on. The log rolls, they lose their grip and drown.

 

They get to St. Peter's Gate furious with God for letting them down. St. Peter says "God helps those who help themselves... he sent you a warning, a rowboat and a helicopter, what more could he have done?"

 

Maybe those tracts are like the warning, rowboat and helicopter... there if you recognize and choose to use them but you are free to ignore them!

Great story!

[Mushtang]

-snip-

flask...

 

I sure hope I get to meet you someday... thanks for sharing your story!

you wouldn't believe the half of it.

 

i'll be in ogunquit second week of september.

That's the same weekend of our annual church picnic... would the offer of free food entice you to make the sidetrip to Cape Elizabeth? (Aside from boasting the oldest cache in Maine?)

 

distance?

Just a short walk down the trail.

oh, you're funny.

 

a thing like a church picnic is perfect for me. i can have a look around under cover of anonymity before i decide to "come out".

Sorry, I just posted that for my own amusement.

[+flask]

perhaps you misunderstand my level of irritation over this.

... and perhaps you misunderstand my question. You keep dancing around it, but you STILL haven't answered it.

 

If you'd rather not answer, that's fine. Keep your reasons to yourself if you like. I was just curious.

 

i'm sorry, what was your question?