Religious material in caches

[GeoNaturist]

 

Jesus is probably rolling in his grave at these anti-religious tracts.

 

Didn't he leave his grave?

 

Nope.. that was Mithras

 

(The god-man the Jesus myth is based upon).

 

Carry on

[GeoNaturist]

I think its rude to call someone rude when they are trying to help you.

 

Perhaps it is they whom are in need of help?

 

After all, it is they who believe that a 4000 year old book of fairytales written by bronze age desert tribesman and chock full of contradictions and inaccuracies is somehow supposed to pass as the infallible word of a supreme being...

 

Face it, there are plenty of such fairytales to go around - how is pestering people to believe yours "helping" them?

Edited August 8, 2008 by GeoNaturist

[+D@nim@l]

I think its rude to call someone rude when they are trying to help you.

Face it, there are plenty of such fairytales to go around - how is pestering people to believe yours "helping" them?

 

If you're so confident in yourself why don't step out of that fairy tale sock puppet in which you're hiding.

[+traildad]

 

I think its rude to call someone rude when they are trying to help you.

 

it is rude to assume you know what's best for other people and it is rude to provide "help" that is neither requested nor welcome.

If you come across someone ready to jump off a bridge would it be rude to try to save them? Rightly or wrongly perhaps that it how they see it.

 

people insisting that religious proselytizing is really doing people a favor are rude on an extreme level. it would be rude to follow people around at the grocery store attempting to "assist" people in making better nutritional choices. it would be rude to go to people's homes and give unsolicited advice on the conduct of their marital relationships. it would be rude to offer unwanted fashion advice.

 

Would it be rude to leave pamphlets in a cache that encourage good nutrition? What about a pamphlet encouraging CITO or reducing your carbon emissions? It almost seems as though you are trying to give extra weight to you point of view by making the argument about people following someone around the store. That is not equal to leaving material in a cache.

 

what makes these spiritual busybodies think that somehow their extreme discourtesy may be excused on the grounds that they know better the intimate workings of another person's soul?

 

it is patronizing and offensive to attempt to defend this behavior on the grounds that you are somehow spiritually superior and that you are somehow helping us.

Most likely it is empathy. They might feel pain at the thought of you burning in hell for all eternity. They might have a genuine human compassion for their fellow human beings. I think it is only your point of view that turns it into anything negative.

 

I would like to add for disclosure that I do no attend church nor do I believe I need to follow a religion to believe in God. I do however have tolerance for people who might genuinely feel they can help me, as long as they don't wake me up on a Sunday morning.

[+mousekakat]

 

Well. I remember a time in 1977, that I can say that I am thankful that someone cared enough about my sole (eternity) that they witnessed to me ( a verbal tract if you will), and I was saved as a result.

 

were you interested to hear it? if so, he WAS doing you a favor.

 

informing people who do not wish to hear it that they are somehow deficient is not doing them a favor. it is rude whether it is done in person or through little "gifts".

 

i fall somewhat short of my mother's expectations for me in terms of religion. she has the courtesy and respect not to bring it up, which i appreciate very much.

 

i do not object to religious items in caches categorically, but rather i judge them by perceived intent. sometimes there's a grey area, and sometimes the intent is all too clear.

 

i remember following this guy around at a bunch of caches near malone, NY. in every logbook he thanked Jesus for helping him find the cache (as if Jesus is wandering around in the woods with an explorist) and in every log he made sure to tell subsequent finders that if they would only come to Jesus, all the sorrows in their lives would be no more.

 

i found it to be deeply offensive. i resent being told that the sorrow in my life is all somehow a result of a deficiency in my soul. i was feeling my wounds pretty keenly: the loss of a close loved one, the loss of a 20-year career, a lifetime of chronic illness and pain.

 

and i open geocache after geocache only to be informed that i am somehow incomplete and that if i had faith, all of my sorrows would have been fixed.

 

it was insulting, and it caused me much pain.

 

You might feel that way, but there may be someone else out there that appreciates it or needs it.

 

It's a personal thing. It's like cabbage, I love it, you may hate it... doest it make it bad or offensive? No. Just something you don't like or appreciate.

 

You're a grown up, just hop over it, unless it is in bad/wet condition, then CITO it.... just like if you were at a buffet, you don't take what you don't like or appreciate

 

Pax!

 

Naomi

[+Snoogans]

This thread is a FUN read. Sorry I skipped it until now...

 

I put these in caches often:

 

 

SO, religious or not?

 

BTW- Check my sig line in reference to page one.

[paganfrog]

ive just found this topic. i persoanlly agree that when i go out geocaching i do not want to have any agandas shoved down my throat. by this i mean religious or political or others.

i am just confused though, how does Groundspeak make its rules?

i am aware of the "rules of no pamplets or other forms of advertising/propaganda to be placed in caches, but what about geocoins? i am aware of many geocoins "shoving" certain religions and other types of groups in your face whether you are interested or not.

i dont want any form or advertising "cache swaps" in caches, but i also think the rule should extend to geocoins as well.

 

i do have one thought on the geocoins but i thought better than to typr it here as i dont want to be banned.

[Dinoprophet]

ive just found this topic. i persoanlly agree that when i go out geocaching i do not want to have any agandas shoved down my throat. by this i mean religious or political or others.

i am just confused though, how does Groundspeak make its rules?

i am aware of the "rules of no pamplets or other forms of advertising/propaganda to be placed in caches, but what about geocoins? i am aware of many geocoins "shoving" certain religions and other types of groups in your face whether you are interested or not.

i dont want any form or advertising "cache swaps" in caches, but i also think the rule should extend to geocoins as well.

 

i do have one thought on the geocoins but i thought better than to typr it here as i dont want to be banned.

It seems to me you'd have to change your user name if they went to that degree. I'd say that's using this site to "shove" a religion just as much as a coin or trinket or log book entry does (which is to say, not at all).

[paganfrog]

It seems to me you'd have to change your user name if they went to that degree. I'd say that's using this site to "shove" a religion just as much as a coin or trinket or log book entry does (which is to say, not at all).

 

 

no i have never had any negative thoughts to peoples beliefs. i am in no way saying people cannot be proud enough to say whether they are christian pagan gay black...or whatever they are. the problem lies with forced agendas. i have never pushed my ways of life or my beliefs onto others in any form, whether its printed matter or me spouting aload of biased opinions onto people who may or may not share my personal ideas.

 

a user name is just a user name, it shows people i am proud to be what i am, but i am not telling anyone they should changed their beliefs to match my own.

the only thing i do think should be matched is that any forced agenda be it online or printed media or geocoins to be banned from geocaching for good.

[+Firespinner]

 

a user name is just a user name, it shows people i am proud to be what i am, but i am not telling anyone they should changed their beliefs to match my own.

the only thing i do think should be matched is that any forced agenda be it online or printed media or geocoins to be banned from geocaching for good.

 

I am Pagan as well but I see it a little differently than you. I agree that pamphlets and tracts should NOT be allowed in caches. Tracts, while funny to some, are usually offensive and instead of saying a positive message about what the person believes, they usually ridicule or threaten a group (be it Pagans, Non-religious, Gays, Minoiritys..etc). Besides the fact that all these little papers tend to fill up a cache, get musty and make a mess.

 

However, I have no problem at all with trade items and geocoins. THese aren't geotrash because they don't preach and they don't mess up a cache. I've seen many beautiful cross pendants, religious geocoins, bookmarks, etc. I'm sure that many people would love to find them in a cache. If a cross pendant is in a geocache, I probably wouldn't trade for it because it's not my religion but someone will be thrilled to find it. I've never met anyone thrilled to get a bible tract.

 

SO I think pamphlets and tracts should definately NOT be put in caches, but I see no problem with a geocoin. Geocoins aren't meant to be kept, they are supposed to move and they are like a little peice of the owner who released them. If Jesus is the most important influence in a person's life, I see no problem with it being on their geocoin, and if you don't like it, don't move the coin. But its very different than having a cache filled with hate-messages that tracts provide.

Edited August 8, 2008 by Firespinner

[Dinoprophet]

 

a user name is just a user name, it shows people i am proud to be what i am, but i am not telling anyone they should changed their beliefs to match my own.

the only thing i do think should be matched is that any forced agenda be it online or printed media or geocoins to be banned from geocaching for good.

 

I am Pagan as well but I see it a little differently than you. I agree that pamphlets and tracts should NOT be allowed in caches. Tracts, while funny to some, are usually offensive and instead of saying a positive message about what the person believes, they usually ridicule or threaten a group (be it Pagans, Non-religious, Gays, Minoiritys..etc). Besides the fact that all these little papers tend to fill up a cache, get musty and make a mess.

 

However, I have no problem at all with trade items and geocoins. THese aren't geotrash because they don't preach and they don't mess up a cache. I've seen many beautiful cross pendants, religious geocoins, bookmarks, etc. I'm sure that many people would love to find them in a cache. If a cross pendant is in a geocache, I probably wouldn't trade for it because it's not my religion but someone will be thrilled to find it. I've never met anyone thrilled to get a bible tract.

 

SO I think pamphlets and tracts should definately NOT be put in caches, but I see no problem with a geocoin. Geocoins aren't meant to be kept, they are supposed to move and they are like a little peice of the owner who released them. If Jesus is the most important influence in a person's life, I see no problem with it being on their geocoin, and if you don't like it, don't move the coin. But its very different than having a cache filled with hate-messages that tracts provide.

Exactly. Coins are about the coin owner, or the person who created the coin. Maybe there are "Repent Sinner" coins out there, but I haven't seen them.

[+flask]

 

Most likely it is empathy. They might feel pain at the thought of you burning in hell for all eternity. They might have a genuine human compassion for their fellow human beings. I think it is only your point of view that turns it into anything negative.

 

 

you heard the old hymn tune?

 

you want to go to heaven

'round the great white throne

you tend to your business

leave mine alone

 

human empathy would have some concern for manners while here on earth. it is presumptive for you or me or anyone else to make assumptions about the condition of another person's soul and it is rude to instruct people that they are flawed and that you have all the answers.

 

people who have considered your religion and found it wanting do not appreciate your false compassion.

 

if the nutrition pamphlet started from the assumption that everyone who did not subscribe to the ideas therein was deficient and that they MUST adhere to its advice or spend an eternity in hell, yes, i'd object to that very much.

 

when i go to a cache and i pick up one of these little bits of intolerant trash that tell people that on a fundamental level they're not good or good enough it saddens and sickens me. save it for someone who wants to hear it.

 

you want to leave a cross or a magen david or a mass card or a little ganesh or some other artifact that represents you, fine. take a pass on the corrective literature, though. stuff aimed at conversion makes a blanket assumption that the reader is faulty and in need of repair or that the reader is saved and thinks it's a dandy idea to "help" people in this way.

 

i'll tell you how you can help people: instead of leaving offensive little tracts in public places, go out and practice that faith of yours. there are many in need.

[+Renegade Knight]

...I grant that each has a right to his or her own beliefs, but is really an accepted practice in geocaching?

 

Yes, it's accepted that cachers can each have their own beliefs. In that light some cachers believe that tracts are demon spawned and react as if possessed. That's their choice, just like it's the choice of another cacher to put the tract in the cache.

 

Cache on, Cache hard.

[+Renegade Knight]

ive just found this topic. i persoanlly agree that when i go out geocaching i do not want to have any agandas shoved down my throat. ...

 

And I for one don't want your anti agenda agenda shoved down my throat.

 

See how that works? Neither of use gets exactly what we want. A lot like real life.

[+Renegade Knight]

...THese aren't geotrash because they don't preach...

 

That's not the working defintion of geotrash. Perhaps my understanding is askew.

 

Your comment about hate was interesting. Some people confuse hate for something it's not. I have enjoyed the company of muggers and theives among others. I had no use or tolerance for theivery or muggings, but didn't hate them. Some folks identify so much with a single faucet of their personality they they think they are hated as a whole because they define themselves by a strongly disliked trait.

 

The reverse seems to be true as well. Some folks define others by their dislike of a trait and dislike them as hatemongers. Ironic but true.

 

Mostly I see it as not seeing the forest for the trees. Somtimes it's hard to show folks the forest.

[+Mokzii]

I think the most offensive part of the whole debate is some of the replies in this thread.

I'm a Christian and I've never pushed my beliefs on anyone. I don't consider myself better than anyone. I'm not of the opinion that those with different beliefs are more or less intelligent, enlightened etc, than myself.

Yet the needless and childish bashing of my beliefs seems to be extremely accepted in this thread - as well as pretty much anywhere else.

Seems that it's A-OKAY to believe whatever you'd like! (As long as you aren't a Christian. In which case, you're somehow naive, stupid and somewhat evil.)

Don't want to be insulted? Don't insult others. Adults should already know this.

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

I think the most offensive part of the whole debate is some of the replies in this thread.

I'm a Christian and I've never pushed my beliefs on anyone. I don't consider myself better than anyone. I'm not of the opinion that those with different beliefs are more or less intelligent, enlightened etc, than myself.

Yet the needless and childish bashing of my beliefs seems to be extremely accepted in this thread - as well as pretty much anywhere else.

Seems that it's A-OKAY to believe whatever you'd like! (As long as you aren't a Christian. In which case, you're somehow naive, stupid and somewhat evil.)

Don't want to be insulted? Don't insult others. Adults should already know this.

 

Thank you....

 

Now divert auxillary power to the shields Scotty...here it comes

[+Mokzii]

I think the most offensive part of the whole debate is some of the replies in this thread.

I'm a Christian and I've never pushed my beliefs on anyone. I don't consider myself better than anyone. I'm not of the opinion that those with different beliefs are more or less intelligent, enlightened etc, than myself.

Yet the needless and childish bashing of my beliefs seems to be extremely accepted in this thread - as well as pretty much anywhere else.

Seems that it's A-OKAY to believe whatever you'd like! (As long as you aren't a Christian. In which case, you're somehow naive, stupid and somewhat evil.)

Don't want to be insulted? Don't insult others. Adults should already know this.

 

Thank you....

 

Now divert auxillary power to the shields Scotty...here it comes

 

Eh. That's okay with me. I couldn't help but post.

The official quote of this thread should be:

"There's only two things in this world I hate. People who are intolerant of other peoples' beliefs...and Christians!"

[+wimseyguy]

I think post 74 was an appropriate usage of the Godwin early alert system.

 

Relating a belt buckle worn by Nazis and the behavior of those who chose to wear that object to the simple tract left behind after a cache find and the person leaving the tract is certainly an exaggerated comparison.

 

And my bringing it back up again here could be considered inflammatory.

[+emmett]

.

 

when I go to a cache and I pick up one of these little bits of intolerant trash that tell people that on a fundamental level they're not good or good enough it saddens and sickens me.

 

When I see someone who presumably thinks himself to be tolerant and regards tolerance as a virtue, who posts a hateful, intolerant rant, insulting a person's expression of faith, it saddens and sickens me.

 

Yes, how comical it is that almost every time you see someone accuse another of intolerance, the accuser is being intolerant himself.

 

Considering all the crap you may find inside a cache, and there is a whole load of crap out there, why so much anger over a pamphlet you are most certainly welcome to ignore?

 

Don't like the crap? Don't take it.

 

Don't like the pamphlet? Don't read it.

 

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

And for the record, yes I am a Christian and I have examined the evidence carefully, and I do believe Jesus is the Son of God.

 

And no, I am not offended by the elite intellectuals who think they are descendents of monkeys and that a complex world was produced from a big random bang, but such superior thinking does make me laugh, and I'd be curious to read their tracts if they had any.

 

.

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

I think post 74 was an appropriate usage of the Godwin early alert system.

 

Relating a belt buckle worn by Nazis and the behavior of those who chose to wear that object to the simple tract left behind after a cache find and the person leaving the tract is certainly an exaggerated comparison.

 

And my bringing it back up again here could be considered inflammatory.

 

It boils down to this....if anyone is sufficently confident in their beliefs then a piece of paper in an ammo can will do nothing more than make them push it one side and ignore it if they don't agree with what is written on it - no matter what is written on it. "Conversion" to a belief system does not come from external sources...it is strictly internal to the person...and a piece of paper, no matter how obnoxious or wonderful, cannot effect a person for good or bad unless they are susceptible to it because of a lack of sufficiency in their confidence in their currently held beliefs...whatever they are. Paper does not harm anyone. Opposition to written opinion is the first step to the majority banning the minority's beliefs and the start of the downhill slope to dictatorship. Its not religion that starts wars...its intolerance.

Edited August 8, 2008 by CrippledBlindSquirrel

[+wimseyguy]

But what if someone is simply hungry when they get to the cache?

A menu in the cache from Vincenzo's Pizza Palace might entice them to patronize that establishment instead of the usual burger joint chain they normally stop at.

So couldn't it follow that a spiritually hungry person could be influenced by a religious tract found in the cache too?

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

But what if someone is simply hungry when they get to the cache?

A menu in the cache from Vincenzo's Pizza Palace might entice them to patronize that establishment instead of the usual burger joint chain they normally stop at.

So couldn't it follow that a spiritually hungry person could be influenced by a religious tract found in the cache too?

 

Exactly....The motivation is internal...If your guy had just eaten, then all of the pizza menus in the world wouldn't influence him to run out the woods and go for pizza. If that spitiually hungry guy was satisifed in himself with his beliefs then the religious tract wouldn't/shouldn't faze him. Either way - the menu or the tract causes absolutely no harm to anyone and may, in fact help some people.

[+wimseyguy]

Then why do we have advertising? Surely some people can be persuaded by a pamphlet with slick graphics making promises of a better way of life? Otherwise there wouldn't be a multi billion industry that tries to influence our decisions.

 

Are you saying that advertising and marketing only works on the weak and insecure?

Edited August 8, 2008 by wimseyguy

[+emmett]

.

 

i remember following this guy around at a bunch of caches near malone, NY. in every logbook he thanked Jesus for helping him find the cache (as if Jesus is wandering around in the woods with an explorist) and in every log he made sure to tell subsequent finders that if they would only come to Jesus, all the sorrows in their lives would be no more.

 

i found it to be deeply offensive. i resent being told that the sorrow in my life is all somehow a result of a deficiency in my soul. i was feeling my wounds pretty keenly: the loss of a close loved one, the loss of a 20-year career, a lifetime of chronic illness and pain.

 

and i open geocache after geocache only to be informed that i am somehow incomplete and that if i had faith, all of my sorrows would have been fixed.

 

it was insulting, and it caused me much pain.

 

As a Christian, I find the practice you describe of a fellow Christian writing such logs to be a mix of ignorance and poor judgment. Obviously, his understanding of Jesus is deeply flawed and his decision to express this over and over just makes matters worse.

 

I figure maybe my thinking is flawed too, so I'm glad I have not expressed it in my 400-plus find logs.

 

But this is not the same as leaving material that you may take or ignore, material which has had a dramatic positive impact on many lives, even if not yours.

 

More to the point, by offering some information on your personal pain, you shed some light on your posts. I had missed this my first time through.

 

It is obvious that you have a sizeable reservoir of anger and bitterness. I know that reservoir well and have felt the boiling blood myself and have at least some understanding of what fuels your thinking.

 

You don't want to hear it, so I'll offer no advice, but it would seem wrong if I did not at least close by saying - I hope you find peace - enough so that one day you could read a thread like this and your blood will not boil.

 

.

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

Then why do we have advertising?

 

Do you buy everything you see advertised? Don't you buy the the things that you have developed a need or desire for and ignore the things that you don't have an interest in. If you want to call of tract about religion or recycling or skydiving advertising I'll agree with you. Its an attempt to persuade...NOT FORCE...you to "buy" the product/service/belief system. Its just a piece of paper...it has no power that you as the reader don't give it.

 

There are some who buy everthing and bankrupt themselves. That is a recognized mental disorder - I guess if you want to extend the compulsion to buy to religion then I guess that at least they won't "buy" themselves into bankruptcy.

 

Edited to add that I don't think there are very many cachers that suffer from the compulsion to spend themselves into bankruptcy based on the stuff I see in the ammo boxes.

Edited August 8, 2008 by CrippledBlindSquirrel

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Trade even, trade up, or don't trade at all.

 

Amen!

 

If I see it in a cache while I'm out caching, I'll push it aside to find the log book. That's about as much as I care. If I find it in one my caches, I'll remove it. Same for political propoganda, hot topic propoganda, restaurant menus (unless they have a coupon and therefore might be of value to someone), flyers or pamphlets promoting anything other than caching. My cache, like my dining room table, isn't open to religious or political debate. There's a proper time and place for each, but it's just not in my caches. If someone is starving for spiritual food, they know where a free meal is waiting.

[+BlueDeuce]

Opposition to written opinion is the first step to the majority banning the minority's beliefs and the start of the downhill slope to dictatorship. Its not religion that starts wars...its intolerance.

 

I'm not going to tell someone they shouldn't be intolerant about cache swag. You don't like tracts in caches? You don't have to explain it to anyone else, you just go right ahead and trade them out for the value they are worth, in your consideration. It probably won't be too hard to trade up.

 

I don't mind the occasional buy one meal get one free coupon but if someone is going around stuffing a bunch caches full of the Ads, which I have seen, I consider it CITO material. It gets traded out.

 

I'll admit that trading fairly is important, but what I choose to trade out and for what reason is nobody else's business.

Edited August 8, 2008 by BlueDeuce

[+poohstickz]

.

...And no, I am not offended by the elite intellectuals who think they are descendents of monkeys and that a complex world was produced from a big random bang, but such superior thinking does make me laugh, and I'd be curious to read their tracts if they had any.

 

I'm not offended by such people either and I'd probably laugh along with you particularly as modern evolutionary theory doesn't offer at all that man is descended from monkeys, similarly nor does the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe even pretend to explain the entirety of the complex world that we have now. You'd certainly not have been doing these folks a disservice if you correctly explained those theories to them and you'd probably have had a more rational argument with them at the same time. I also doubt that these elitists that you mention would be able to produce any tracts as tracts are generally religious in nature. Perhaps a closer analogy would be asking them for their peer-reviewed, published, testable, scientific literature. Who were these people, by the way?

 

Back to religious material in caches. It's a thin line, isn't it, but I think flask has a good direction on it. When I find tracts and the like I swap them for something of equal or greater value but I do wish I could go geocaching without someone feeling the need to save me.

Edited August 8, 2008 by poohstickz

[+Paganmen]

Just curious, but in regards to cache etiquette, what's the accepted thought on religious material

being placed in caches? I ask because I'm rather new at this and really do not know. So far my wife

and I have encountered at least three caches with religious tracts stuck in them (one was almost stuffed with them. I'm not a follower of any religion, and I grant that each has a right to his or her own beliefs, but is really an accepted practice in geocaching?

I have found quite a few myself. Most of these tracts are hateful. Geocachers are made up of all different types of people. There are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists, etc. There are gay people and straight people. There are cachers with small children and there are retired couples. What everyone has in common is the love of the game and the thrill in finding the cache! Period.

 

When you find religious tracts in a cache that condemns someone else's religion, sexuality, lifestyle or whatever, it is very insulting. If you have religious beliefs, then by all means enjoy it. It should be something that is deep and spiritual to you and most importantly, personal. But remember that other's may not believe as you do. Would you want me to leave Pagan tracts in caches for you and children to find? I do have them! It seems that people of other religions have more respect than you do.

 

I always remove them from caches and dispose of them in the appropriate container. I also write it into the log book and on the web site. Normally, I have been kind. I log what swag/TB's I took, what swag/TB's I left and also that I removed religious proselytizing. That is until last week......when I found a tract that blatantly lied about my religion and condemned it. It was one of those disgusting Chick publications. Now I log all visits where I find religious stuff as "Removed religious trash".

 

btw, I hardly want anyone "praying" for me or giving advice to other's that doesn't seem to know the difference between a sole and a soul!

[+traildad]

ive just found this topic. i persoanlly agree that when i go out geocaching i do not want to have any agandas shoved down my throat. by this i mean religious or political or others.

i am just confused though, how does Groundspeak make its rules?

i am aware of the "rules of no pamplets or other forms of advertising/propaganda to be placed in caches, but what about geocoins? i am aware of many geocoins "shoving" certain religions and other types of groups in your face whether you are interested or not.

i dont want any form or advertising "cache swaps" in caches, but i also think the rule should extend to geocoins as well.

 

i do have one thought on the geocoins but i thought better than to typr it here as i dont want to be banned.

Define "shoved down your throat"

[+traildad]

 

It seems to me you'd have to change your user name if they went to that degree. I'd say that's using this site to "shove" a religion just as much as a coin or trinket or log book entry does (which is to say, not at all).

no i have never had any negative thoughts to peoples beliefs. i am in no way saying people cannot be proud enough to say whether they are christian pagan gay black...or whatever they are. the problem lies with forced agendas. i have never pushed my ways of life or my beliefs onto others in any form, whether its printed matter or me spouting aload of biased opinions onto people who may or may not share my personal ideas.

 

a user name is just a user name, it shows people i am proud to be what i am, but i am not telling anyone they should changed their beliefs to match my own.

the only thing i do think should be matched is that any forced agenda be it online or printed media or geocoins to be banned from geocaching for good.

Since when is putting a printed page where people can find it forcing an agenda?

[+traildad]

 

SO I think pamphlets and tracts should definately NOT be put in caches, but I see no problem with a geocoin. Geocoins aren't meant to be kept, they are supposed to move and they are like a little peice of the owner who released them. If Jesus is the most important influence in a person's life, I see no problem with it being on their geocoin, and if you don't like it, don't move the coin. But its very different than having a cache filled with hate-messages that tracts provide.

Do you feel the same way if the pamphlet is about ecology, geocaching, nutrition, hiking etc? Or is it only bad when you don't approve of the message?

[+traildad]

save it for someone who wants to hear it.

It seems that what ever is left in the cache is saved there waiting for someone that wants to hear it. It is amazing to me how intolerant the people are, that scream the loudest about religious intolerance.

[+flask]

.

 

More to the point, by offering some information on your personal pain, you shed some light on your posts. I had missed this my first time through.

 

It is obvious that you have a sizeable reservoir of anger and bitterness. I know that reservoir well and have felt the boiling blood myself and have at least some understanding of what fuels your thinking.

 

You don't want to hear it, so I'll offer no advice, but it would seem wrong if I did not at least close by saying - I hope you find peace - enough so that one day you could read a thread like this and your blood will not boil.

 

.

 

what you also don't know from reading here is that during that time i was finding the offensive logs, i was travelling alone and stopping six times each day for prayer.

 

for me geocaching is an act of faith; i head out sometimes for weeks at a time with no set itinerary. i trust that i will be brought to the places and people that i'm supposed to see. i go to church wherever i happen to be on sundays.

 

i actually speak often with people (strangers, mostly) about faith and salvation, but never to those who aren't interested. invariably people approach me. sometimes they are already people of faith; sometimes not. i do not know what moves them to speak to me, a slightly scruffy stranger.

 

often as not i send them away with a copy of my latest cd, which is mostly sacred music.

 

the fact that i am a deacon of my church does not prevent me from believing that it is rude to presume that your application of faith is appropriate to another person and that it is rude to assume that unwanted interference is doing someone a favor.

 

i continue to believe that it is an outstanding arrogance to inform another person of what you perceive to be a deficiency of their soul.

 

i actually do not have a "sizeable reservoir of anger and bitterness", but i do feel very strongly that the sort of thinking that causes people to bring uninvited criticisms of other people's souls must be countered and it must be countered forcefully.

 

imagine me, if you will, living alone on the road, sleeping in my car for two weeks. i had in the previous months lost the great love of my heart, the job i'd held for twenty years, the pastor i loved, and the voice on which i depended as a musician.

 

i am sitting on a rock, approaching the time of late afternoon prayer and i come to a geocache where someone has presumed to inform me that if only i would come to Jesus, all my sorrows would be taken away. was i to have drawn the conclusion that that my faith was somehow insufficient? incomplete? that i had failed somehow to love God enough, or in the right way?

 

what kind of message of peace or love was this for a stranger to deliver on me through a geocache?

 

what presents to me the greatest test of faith is "christians" who have the arrogance to think they're doing the world a favor by pretending to know what's right for other people. if you want to leave behind a token of your faith when you go to a geocache, not only is that fine with me, but it pleases me very much. if you leave behind a message that other people are somehow not adequate or that they are spiritually wanting, you have overstepped your bounds into rudeness of the highest caliber.

 

i guess to my way of thinking as a rudeness it exceeds so many other rudenesses because the state of one's soul is so personal and intrinsic that it is tantamount to sitting in judgement on the very essence of another person and telling them that you have found them wanting.

 

ultimately there is only one judge but there are an awful lot of people out there who will be happy to tell you that they know his mind. i have seen amazing things beyond comprehension that testify to the great power and mercy of the present and living God and mystery and sureness of his work.

 

to take the Good News and turn it into a high ground from which we feel free to presume for other people the state of their souls, their best courses, and to coerce them in what we feel is their proper path subverts and demeans the Word and the Life.

 

when it comes to other people, i simply pray for them to find their own right path. the way is not always made clear to us. it is clear, but not necessarily to us.

 

i have an interesting perspective in that i became a person of faith WHILE OUT GEOCACHING. i grew up as an atheist, and my life was full and meaningful and very nearly perfect. i left the house one day to go caching and while i was out God spoke to me and opened my soul up like a can of sardines.

 

from here i can see that i was already on this path, and that i was placed on it properly and at the right time. i think back with love and admiration to all the good people of faith who, knowing it wasn't up to them to judge, let me be. likewise i hope to see everyone given that same courtesy, and that applies to unwelcomed literature left in geocaches aimed at the conversion of "defective" people.

[+Firespinner]

 

SO I think pamphlets and tracts should definately NOT be put in caches, but I see no problem with a geocoin. Geocoins aren't meant to be kept, they are supposed to move and they are like a little peice of the owner who released them. If Jesus is the most important influence in a person's life, I see no problem with it being on their geocoin, and if you don't like it, don't move the coin. But its very different than having a cache filled with hate-messages that tracts provide.

Do you feel the same way if the pamphlet is about ecology, geocaching, nutrition, hiking etc? Or is it only bad when you don't approve of the message?

 

I dont' think propaganda of ANY sort should be in a cache. I guess my point wasn't clear enough. Trade items such a necklaces, bookmarks anything of that sort is fine because its not trash....a cross or a carrot pendant, it doesn't matter to me. Paper pamphlets, coupons and advertisments aren't ok. They get musty and messy and fill up cache space that could be used for real trade items. I dont' care if its a Christian tract, a "Pagan tract", an Arby's coupon or a paper about the 4 food groups...it doesn't belong in a cache. I am a vegetarian and I would never think its ok to put PETA papers in a cache trying to convince people to stop eating meat. 1. It wont' turn anyone vegetarian to find these papers and 2. it annoys meat eaters who are just trying to have fun caching and 3. if they get damp, they ruin the cache! So bottom line in my opinion, pamphlets propaganda, brochures, etc promoting ANY agenda do not belong in a cache.

[AZcachemeister]

This thread is a FUN read. Sorry I skipped it until now...

 

I put these in caches often:

 

 

SO, religious or not?

 

BTW- Check my sig line in reference to page one.

 

I want one.

If there really is a god, I will have one by year's end.

 

.

 

More to the point, by offering some information on your personal pain, you shed some light on your posts. I had missed this my first time through.

 

It is obvious that you have a sizeable reservoir of anger and bitterness. I know that reservoir well and have felt the boiling blood myself and have at least some understanding of what fuels your thinking.

 

You don't want to hear it, so I'll offer no advice, but it would seem wrong if I did not at least close by saying - I hope you find peace - enough so that one day you could read a thread like this and your blood will not boil.

 

.

 

what you also don't know from reading here is that during that time i was finding the offensive logs, i was travelling alone and stopping six times each day for prayer.

 

for me geocaching is an act of faith; i head out sometimes for weeks at a time with no set itinerary. i trust that i will be brought to the places and people that i'm supposed to see. i go to church wherever i happen to be on sundays.

 

i actually speak often with people (strangers, mostly) about faith and salvation, but never to those who aren't interested. invariably people approach me. sometimes they are already people of faith; sometimes not. i do not know what moves them to speak to me, a slightly scruffy stranger.

 

often as not i send them away with a copy of my latest cd, which is mostly sacred music.

 

the fact that i am a deacon of my church does not prevent me from believing that it is rude to presume that your application of faith is appropriate to another person and that it is rude to assume that unwanted interference is doing someone a favor.

 

i continue to believe that it is an outstanding arrogance to inform another person of what you perceive to be a deficiency of their soul.

 

i actually do not have a "sizeable reservoir of anger and bitterness", but i do feel very strongly that the sort of thinking that causes people to bring uninvited criticisms of other people's souls must be countered and it must be countered forcefully.

 

imagine me, if you will, living alone on the road, sleeping in my car for two weeks. i had in the previous months lost the great love of my heart, the job i'd held for twenty years, the pastor i loved, and the voice on which i depended as a musician.

 

i am sitting on a rock, approaching the time of late afternoon prayer and i come to a geocache where someone has presumed to inform me that if only i would come to Jesus, all my sorrows would be taken away. was i to have drawn the conclusion that that my faith was somehow insufficient? incomplete? that i had failed somehow to love God enough, or in the right way?

 

what kind of message of peace or love was this for a stranger to deliver on me through a geocache?

 

what presents to me the greatest test of faith is "christians" who have the arrogance to think they're doing the world a favor by pretending to know what's right for other people. if you want to leave behind a token of your faith when you go to a geocache, not only is that fine with me, but it pleases me very much. if you leave behind a message that other people are somehow not adequate or that they are spiritually wanting, you have overstepped your bounds into rudeness of the highest caliber.

 

i guess to my way of thinking as a rudeness it exceeds so many other rudenesses because the state of one's soul is so personal and intrinsic that it is tantamount to sitting in judgement on the very essence of another person and telling them that you have found them wanting.

 

ultimately there is only one judge but there are an awful lot of people out there who will be happy to tell you that they know his mind. i have seen amazing things beyond comprehension that testify to the great power and mercy of the present and living God and mystery and sureness of his work.

 

to take the Good News and turn it into a high ground from which we feel free to presume for other people the state of their souls, their best courses, and to coerce them in what we feel is their proper path subverts and demeans the Word and the Life.

 

when it comes to other people, i simply pray for them to find their own right path. the way is not always made clear to us. it is clear, but not necessarily to us.

 

i have an interesting perspective in that i became a person of faith WHILE OUT GEOCACHING. i grew up as an atheist, and my life was full and meaningful and very nearly perfect. i left the house one day to go caching and while i was out God spoke to me and opened my soul up like a can of sardines.

 

from here i can see that i was already on this path, and that i was placed on it properly and at the right time. i think back with love and admiration to all the good people of faith who, knowing it wasn't up to them to judge, let me be. likewise i hope to see everyone given that same courtesy, and that applies to unwelcomed literature left in geocaches aimed at the conversion of "defective" people.

 

Until one is ready to hear it, the truth will be little more than the breeze rustling through the trees in the distance.

 

Thank-you flask for sharing that.

 

I can't help but wonder WHY there is so much of this printed propaganda (let's call it what it is) for Christianity, but little or none for Islam, Buddhism, or even Confucianism.

[+Pooch_Patrol]

I don't think the religious materials are appropriate. The guidelines we read when we began caching said that people should not try to advertise or spread an agenda. Religious materials are doing just that.

[+traildad]

Then why do we have advertising? Surely some people can be persuaded by a pamphlet with slick graphics making promises of a better way of life? Otherwise there wouldn't be a multi billion industry that tries to influence our decisions.

 

Are you saying that advertising and marketing only works on the weak and insecure?

Wait, just a second ago it was hungry. Why is someone that is hungry, now described as weak and insecure? Advertising works because it gets you to do things you want to do. A pamphlet is not going to get anyone to change their life. It might cause them to explore the ideas more. If they find something they like it would be then that they could be persuaded.

[+emmett]

.

 

To Flask, regarding your last post (#135) ...

 

I won't add extra space by copying it all here but I appreciate the time and thought. It reveals a much more complete picture. I find myself agreeing with most of what you wrote and understanding better what was behind the parts I don't agree with.

 

Just the same, I'm happy to find a cache with nothing but a log book and pen, but if it must have stash, I'll take a cache with tracts that I may or may not decide to read, over a cache with junk. I don't think I have ever found the former, but most everything I have found falls into the latter category.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not complaining about the junk, just trying to put this stash discussion in perspective. Anytime I have tried to set up a cache with above average stash, the geocaching community has always managed turned it into something much less, usually in under a year.

 

Now that's a topic that could get my blood boiling ...

 

.

[+BadAndy]

Why is it that it's acceptable to bash Christians on this forum?

 

If I were to start bashing Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Gays, Minorities, Rich people, Poor people, etc etc.... My posts would be moderated very quickly.

 

By not moderating the Christian bashing, is Groundspeak sanctioning the practice?

 

Personally I could care less what your religious/non religious beliefs happen to be, but to see Moderators allow it and even actively participate in it sucks pretty bad.

 

Whats the deal. Is it ok to bash someones beliefs or not?

[Mushtang]

I don't think the religious materials are appropriate. The guidelines we read when we began caching said that people should not try to advertise or spread an agenda. Religious materials are doing just that.

That only applies to caches, not to trade items or travel bugs.

 

If you tried to set up a religious cache called "Jesus Saves" and wanted to use it to promote Christian beliefs by keeping it filled with tracts, that would be a cache with an agenda, and wouldn't be allowed.

 

If you wanted to leave Jesus Saves tracts in every cache you find, you're absolutely allowed to and it's not at all against the guidelines.

 

That's the difference.

[+ReadyOrNot]

I don't think the religious materials are appropriate. The guidelines we read when we began caching said that people should not try to advertise or spread an agenda. Religious materials are doing just that.

That only applies to caches, not to trade items or travel bugs.

 

If you tried to set up a religious cache called "Jesus Saves" and wanted to use it to promote Christian beliefs by keeping it filled with tracts, that would be a cache with an agenda, and wouldn't be allowed.

 

If you wanted to leave Jesus Saves tracts in every cache you find, you're absolutely allowed to and it's not at all against the guidelines.

 

That's the difference.

 

Couldn't agree with you more! You're getting smart in your old age, my friend...

 

If you don't like something in a cache, take it out and replace it with something that you find to be of greater value... Sounds simple enough to me.

[+DSA@JSA]

Well, would you be offended if there was an Obama 08 sticker in a cache? I doubt it. No different than religous tracks. They are fine

[+DSA@JSA]

.

...And no, I am not offended by the elite intellectuals who think they are descendents of monkeys and that a complex world was produced from a big random bang, but such superior thinking does make me laugh, and I'd be curious to read their tracts if they had any.

 

I'm not offended by such people either and I'd probably laugh along with you particularly as modern evolutionary theory doesn't offer at all that man is descended from monkeys, similarly nor does the Big Bang theory of the origin of the universe even pretend to explain the entirety of the complex world that we have now. You'd certainly not have been doing these folks a disservice if you correctly explained those theories to them and you'd probably have had a more rational argument with them at the same time. I also doubt that these elitists that you mention would be able to produce any tracts as tracts are generally religious in nature. Perhaps a closer analogy would be asking them for their peer-reviewed, published, testable, scientific literature. Who were these people, by the way?

 

Back to religious material in caches. It's a thin line, isn't it, but I think flask has a good direction on it. When I find tracts and the like I swap them for something of equal or greater value but I do wish I could go geocaching without someone feeling the need to save me.

 

 

 

The contradiction between Evolution and Christianity is non-existant. Same with the big bang. And back to the point I don't think anyone should care what someone wants others to hear. It is fine to put those things in caches.You shouldn't be offended by or insult anything in a cache.

[+KBI]

Couldn't agree with you more! You're getting smart in your old age, my friend...

So ... you're suggesting that anyone who disagrees with you is ... stupid?

[+Snoogans]

This thread is a FUN read. Sorry I skipped it until now...

 

I put these in caches often:

 

 

SO, religious or not?

 

BTW- Check my sig line in reference to page one.

 

I want one.

If there really is a god, I will have one by year's end.

 

.

 

More to the point, by offering some information on your personal pain, you shed some light on your posts. I had missed this my first time through.

 

It is obvious that you have a sizeable reservoir of anger and bitterness. I know that reservoir well and have felt the boiling blood myself and have at least some understanding of what fuels your thinking.

 

You don't want to hear it, so I'll offer no advice, but it would seem wrong if I did not at least close by saying - I hope you find peace - enough so that one day you could read a thread like this and your blood will not boil.

 

.

 

what you also don't know from reading here is that during that time i was finding the offensive logs, i was travelling alone and stopping six times each day for prayer.

 

for me geocaching is an act of faith; i head out sometimes for weeks at a time with no set itinerary. i trust that i will be brought to the places and people that i'm supposed to see. i go to church wherever i happen to be on sundays.

 

i actually speak often with people (strangers, mostly) about faith and salvation, but never to those who aren't interested. invariably people approach me. sometimes they are already people of faith; sometimes not. i do not know what moves them to speak to me, a slightly scruffy stranger.

 

often as not i send them away with a copy of my latest cd, which is mostly sacred music.

 

the fact that i am a deacon of my church does not prevent me from believing that it is rude to presume that your application of faith is appropriate to another person and that it is rude to assume that unwanted interference is doing someone a favor.

 

i continue to believe that it is an outstanding arrogance to inform another person of what you perceive to be a deficiency of their soul.

 

i actually do not have a "sizeable reservoir of anger and bitterness", but i do feel very strongly that the sort of thinking that causes people to bring uninvited criticisms of other people's souls must be countered and it must be countered forcefully.

 

imagine me, if you will, living alone on the road, sleeping in my car for two weeks. i had in the previous months lost the great love of my heart, the job i'd held for twenty years, the pastor i loved, and the voice on which i depended as a musician.

 

i am sitting on a rock, approaching the time of late afternoon prayer and i come to a geocache where someone has presumed to inform me that if only i would come to Jesus, all my sorrows would be taken away. was i to have drawn the conclusion that that my faith was somehow insufficient? incomplete? that i had failed somehow to love God enough, or in the right way?

 

what kind of message of peace or love was this for a stranger to deliver on me through a geocache?

 

what presents to me the greatest test of faith is "christians" who have the arrogance to think they're doing the world a favor by pretending to know what's right for other people. if you want to leave behind a token of your faith when you go to a geocache, not only is that fine with me, but it pleases me very much. if you leave behind a message that other people are somehow not adequate or that they are spiritually wanting, you have overstepped your bounds into rudeness of the highest caliber.

 

i guess to my way of thinking as a rudeness it exceeds so many other rudenesses because the state of one's soul is so personal and intrinsic that it is tantamount to sitting in judgement on the very essence of another person and telling them that you have found them wanting.

 

ultimately there is only one judge but there are an awful lot of people out there who will be happy to tell you that they know his mind. i have seen amazing things beyond comprehension that testify to the great power and mercy of the present and living God and mystery and sureness of his work.

 

to take the Good News and turn it into a high ground from which we feel free to presume for other people the state of their souls, their best courses, and to coerce them in what we feel is their proper path subverts and demeans the Word and the Life.

 

when it comes to other people, i simply pray for them to find their own right path. the way is not always made clear to us. it is clear, but not necessarily to us.

 

i have an interesting perspective in that i became a person of faith WHILE OUT GEOCACHING. i grew up as an atheist, and my life was full and meaningful and very nearly perfect. i left the house one day to go caching and while i was out God spoke to me and opened my soul up like a can of sardines.

 

from here i can see that i was already on this path, and that i was placed on it properly and at the right time. i think back with love and admiration to all the good people of faith who, knowing it wasn't up to them to judge, let me be. likewise i hope to see everyone given that same courtesy, and that applies to unwelcomed literature left in geocaches aimed at the conversion of "defective" people.

 

Until one is ready to hear it, the truth will be little more than the breeze rustling through the trees in the distance.

 

Thank-you flask for sharing that.

 

I can't help but wonder WHY there is so much of this printed propaganda (let's call it what it is) for Christianity, but little or none for Islam, Buddhism, or even Confucianism.

 

WOW. Two great posts that go great together. (my God, am i agreeing with flask? note to self: stop that.)

 

As for MY role in your post. I truly believe God helps those who help themselves.

 

You or ANYONE can send me a self addressed stamped envelope (with PROPER postage) and mention this thread and your user account and I will send you that coin FREE of charge.

 

Send your S.A.S.E. to:

 

Mark aka Snoogans

C/O PRESS Your Luck!

P.O. Box 516

Missouri City, Texas 77459-0516

 

God works in mysterious ways. Doesn't she?

Edited August 9, 2008 by Snoogans

[tattooedmommie]

Wow, I think a lot of people are way too easily offended. Who cares if there's religious material or not. No one is telling you to read it, just log your find and move on.

[+blb9556]

I would email the owner about it. If they say the cache is supposed to have those in it then submit a needs archived log. From the guidelines

Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda.

[+Firespinner]

Why is it that it's acceptable to bash Christians on this forum?

 

If I were to start bashing Atheists, Jews, Muslims, Gays, Minorities, Rich people, Poor people, etc etc.... My posts would be moderated very quickly.

 

By not moderating the Christian bashing, is Groundspeak sanctioning the practice?

 

Personally I could care less what your religious/non religious beliefs happen to be, but to see Moderators allow it and even actively participate in it sucks pretty bad.

 

Whats the deal. Is it ok to bash someones beliefs or not?

 

Andy,

 

While I will admit that I haven't read every post on this page, I have to say the ones I have read don't seem to be "bashing" Christians. The original question was about the appropriatness of stuffing a cache with religious tracts. From my own experience, the only tracts I have EVER seen are put out by Christian churches. I've never seen Jewish tracts, Pagan tracts, Muslim tracts...etc.

 

So that is probably why people are mentioning Christians as the people who are doing this. I think its wrong to push Christianity through bible tracts which are often mean and cruel. I think it is just as wrong for JW's to pounce on me at my doorstep or for the local guy here (I still can't figure out what religion he is, but its not Christain) to stand in front of the PuttPutt and scream his dogma to all who are just trying to sink a little colored ball in a hole.

 

Christains were mentioned because the tracts in the original post are almost always christian tracts. Now, that does NOT NOT NOT mean that all Christians do this. It does NOT NOT NOT mean that Christians are all pushy, nosy people who think everyone must believe their way. IF anyone has been bashed, its the over agressive people who push their religion, not Christians in general. Please don't lump all Christians in this group of zealots. Not all Christains try to push their religion on others just as not all Pagans work dark magick, not all Muslims hate americans, not all JW's pound the pavement knocking on doors, not all Penacostls talk in tongues, not all Wiccans think they're some one famous reincarnated....I could go on and on. My point is that Christains were brought up because 99% of the time, the religious tracts in question are Christian. It's those religious tracts that many find offensive...and please don't lump all Christains in there. While MOST religious tracts are Christain, MOST christains do NOT leave bible tracts. It's a select few that do, just as its a select few from each religion that stand out and tend to give the whole religion a bad name.