Preform Torture Test

[Mag Magician]

More than a few months ago, someone started a thread on testing containers for durability. I can't seem to find it now.

 

However, I have now received my shipment of preforms and am slowly exchanging all of my 35mm film can hides with the preforms. I have decided to do a comprehensive evaluation of the water tightness and durability of this fantastic container and am starting with a test of temperature variables.

 

I started by leaving an open preform in a pot of heated water at 175° F. The open top simulates when a cacher finds the container and takes out the log to sign in hot and humid conditions.

 

 

I then inserted a piece of paper with ink writing on it, and sealed the still humid and warm preform into the freezer.

 

 

After waiting a while, I took the container out of the freezer, and watched as the condensation formed around the outside. The ink on my test log was quite legible, even through the water droplets. Upon opening the preform and checking out the paper inside I found it dry to the touch.

 

 

Test #1 completed and passed with flying colours. I still have more harsher ones up my sleeve before I truly trust these in the outdoors, and will post as I continue the testing

Edited August 2, 2008 by Team Magic

[+Codfish116]

kewl! where did you get the preforms? I'm interested in seeing how well they perform in your tests

[Mag Magician]

kewl! where did you get the preforms? I'm interested in seeing how well they perform in your tests

 

There are many sellers on E bay selling these for around $2 each, but I went straight to Teachers Source and got 30 for $16.95 plus shipping.

[+KG1960]

I recently found a cache using this type of container. It had been placed about a year ago and went through one winter. The container showed no signs of deterioration and the contents were nice and dry.

Edited August 2, 2008 by KG1960

[Mag Magician]

The next test involves ice, which we get plenty of, around these parts.

 

I immersed a preform into an ice cream container full of water, and placed it in the freezer. When it is fully frozen into a block, my intention is to smash it apart with a hammer and see if the preform survives.

 

Sometimes cachers can be a little eager to get a smiley.

 

 

I will let you know how this one survives in a day or so. P.S. An unintentional test indicated that the weight of 2 AA batteries is enough to overcome the buoyancy of a preform.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Team Magic

[PastorJon]

Well, you learn something new every day... I had no idea that's how soda bottles started out!

[AZcachemeister]

The next test involves ice, which we get plenty of, around these parts.

 

I immersed a preform into an ice cream container full of water, and placed it in the freezer. When it is fully frozen into a block, my intention is to smash it apart with a hammer and see if the preform survives.

 

Sometimes cachers can be a little eager to get a smiley.

 

 

I will let you know how this one survives in a day or so. P.S. An unintentional test indicated that the weight of 2 AA batteries is enough to overcome the buoyancy of a preform.

 

Wondering how the submergence (liquid water) test is working out?

Also, I'm curious how these would fare in 100+ temps with brutal UV exposure. Most plastics don't make it through the first year here in the Southwest.

[Mag Magician]

 

Wondering how the submergence (liquid water) test is working out?

Also, I'm curious how these would fare in 100+ temps with brutal UV exposure. Most plastics don't make it through the first year here in the Southwest.

 

Hmm, interesting question about the UV. I have no high intensity UV source, so it would only be a matter of wait and see, if attempted. However, if your container is camoed in any way, that would preclude the necessity of testing the container itself. The camo would be the failure point.

 

As for high temps, the first test included bringing the preform to 175° and holding it there for quite a few minutes. There appeared to be no degradation at that point, but I will be sure to add the higher temperatures to my further testing. I may just place one in the oven for a few hours at around 150° to be totally sure.

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

edited for grammatical correctness

Edited August 2, 2008 by Team Magic

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

Well, you learn something new every day... I had no idea that's how soda bottles started out!

 

Me neither.....They look to be about 3 or 4" long...is that about right?

 

Dang...I need to see if I can talk mama out of the credit card for a few minutes!!

[Mag Magician]

Well, you learn something new every day... I had no idea that's how soda bottles started out!

 

Me neither.....They look to be about 3 or 4" long...is that about right?

 

Dang...I need to see if I can talk mama out of the credit card for a few minutes!!

 

The ones I am testing are 5" long and 1" across. They are the preform for a 2 liter pop bottle. I also have some that are more like 3 1/2" and are for 1 liter bottles.

 

BTW, the freeze test is totally frozen and tomorrow morning will be coming out in the yard for a hammer test.

 

Stay tuned.

[+flask]

don't forget the setting fire beneath it test.

 

twice i have set a fire under a cache to get it free.

[Mag Magician]

don't forget the setting fire beneath it test.

 

twice i have set a fire under a cache to get it free.

 

Just for you, I will fire up the BBQ and see how long it takes to make a puddle out of a piece of plastic. I once had to put a Hibachi BBQ under my car to get it to start at 45 below.

Edited August 4, 2008 by Team Magic

[+flask]

don't forget the setting fire beneath it test.

 

twice i have set a fire under a cache to get it free.

 

Just for you, I will fire up the BBQ and see how long it takes to make a puddle out of a piece of plastic. I once had to put a Hibachi BBQ under my car to get it to start at 45 below.

 

to make it reflect field conditions, the container should be encased in ice and the temperature should be hovering around zero. THEN light a fire under it. a good container will survive that with its contents quite intact. voice of experience.

[GOF and Bacall]

I once had to rebuild an apartment after the tenant tried cooking on his hibachi indoors in February.

No pop bottles survived.

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

kewl! where did you get the preforms? I'm interested in seeing how well they perform in your tests

 

There are many sellers on E bay selling these for around $2 each, but I went straight to Teachers Source and got 30 for $16.95 plus shipping.

HaHa, not long ago I hauled a load of about 400,000 of them. I guess they didn't have lids though. Are they available with lids in the wide mouth style used for some 1 liter bottles?

[+Dread_Pirate_Bruce]

don't forget the setting fire beneath it test.

 

twice i have set a fire under a cache to get it free.

 

Just for you, I will fire up the BBQ and see how long it takes to make a puddle out of a piece of plastic. I once had to put a Hibachi BBQ under my car to get it to start at 45 below.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm from SoCal ... 45 below what? Is that like a latitude, dude? Totally awesome, dude.

[+Juicepig]

Hmm, interesting question about the UV. I have no high intensity UV source, so it would only be a matter of wait and see, if attempted.

 

You could try using the sun and a few strategically placed mirrors!

 

I'm sorry, but I'm from SoCal ... 45 below what? Is that like a latitude, dude? Totally awesome, dude.

 

Celcius, 45 degrees below the freezing point of distilled water - AKA -49 degrees F

Edited August 4, 2008 by Juicepig

[Mag Magician]

Hmm, interesting question about the UV. I have no high intensity UV source, so it would only be a matter of wait and see, if attempted.

 

You could try using the sun and a few strategically placed mirrors!

 

 

Juicepig, did you forget we live in Ontario? When was the last time you saw the sun here this summer?

[+Kabuthunk]

Something I highly suggest:

 

Replace your logbook paper with Rite in the rain paper. I've run some pretty thorough tests on that stuff and it held up awesome, even if it got damp. Or wet. Or fully submerged for a week.

[Mag Magician]

The freeze and smash test is completed. The preform was submerged in water, allowed to freeze, and left for 2 days.

 

This morning I took it out of the freezer, and broke the ice apart.

 

 

So far, looks good, so I proceeded to hit it again with a 1 1/2# ball peen hammer a few more times, just for the heckuvit. The preform and the lid sustained direct hits with the hammer.

 

 

Results for this test are 99% positive. The log remained dry.

The only fault I saw was that ice crystals had formed between the container and lid threads, making it difficult to screw off the cap at first.

[CacheNCarryMA]

I wonder how many geocachers carry hammers in their bag of tricks?

[+SUp3rFM & Cruella]

Awesome contribution!

 

Thanks for the tests.

[Mag Magician]

The original test preform and lid are now sitting back in the bucket of water, where it will stay for a couple of days in the sunshine. I want to see if there was any damage from the hammer blows.

 

I got thinking about a previous incident while placing this bucket on my front porch. A few years ago the resident Newfoundland dog found my GPSr on the porch while I was letting it recalibrate after an upgrade. He used it for a chew toy for a while, before discarding it. (It still works, to this day).

 

If he doesn't find this preform before the drowning test is complete, I will coat it with peanut butter and let him give it a go. That would be a true test of the great outdoors!

[+IBcrashen]

The original test preform and lid are now sitting back in the bucket of water, where it will stay for a couple of days in the sunshine. I want to see if there was any damage from the hammer blows.

 

I got thinking about a previous incident while placing this bucket on my front porch. A few years ago the resident Newfoundland dog found my GPSr on the porch while I was letting it recalibrate after an upgrade. He used it for a chew toy for a while, before discarding it. (It still works, to this day).

 

If he doesn't find this preform before the drowning test is complete, I will coat it with peanut butter and let him give it a go. That would be a true test of the great outdoors!

 

I have had a few preforms carried a little ways off by animals and then discarded with a few chew marks on them. It might have been the camo tape I used on it.

Tried wiring them but it rust out in a few years. I have galvanized air craft cable I am now going to try.

[+9Key]

The next test involves ice, which we get plenty of, around these parts.

 

I immersed a preform into an ice cream container full of water, and placed it in the freezer. When it is fully frozen into a block, my intention is to smash it apart with a hammer and see if the preform survives.

 

Sometimes cachers can be a little eager to get a smiley.

 

 

I will let you know how this one survives in a day or so. P.S. An unintentional test indicated that the weight of 2 AA batteries is enough to overcome the buoyancy of a preform.

 

Wondering how the submergence (liquid water) test is working out?

Also, I'm curious how these would fare in 100+ temps with brutal UV exposure. Most plastics don't make it through the first year here in the Southwest.

I have a few preforms that have been in the wild for 1 year+ and they're done well with the hot Texas sun (101 F today). No failures so far!

[Mag Magician]

I have had a few preforms carried a little ways off by animals and then discarded with a few chew marks on them. It might have been the camo tape I used on it.

Tried wiring them but it rust out in a few years. I have galvanized air craft cable I am now going to try.

 

Thanks for the contribution. I have heard so many great stories and reviews about preforms, and it always great to hear some more.

 

As for wire, I use a green, plastic coated garden wire. It has held up so well on the other micro hides that I was able to reuse it when placing the preforms.

[Mag Magician]

I have a few preforms that have been in the wild for 1 year+ and they're done well with the hot Texas sun (101 F today). No failures so far!

 

Thanks, there are some tests that I cannot do way up here in the frigid north, one of which is leaving a test subject out in 100+ temperatures.

[+Corp Of Discovery]

I've been using them as sig items for over 4 years now- never heard of one failing yet. On one of my own hides I had a note posted that the cover of one was chewed up (by a weed whacker) but it was still serviceable and log remained dry the whole time. That one is hidden at ground level and has gone thru 2 winters now without any other issue.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Corp Of Discovery

[+CrippledBlindSquirrel]

It would appear that, short of a near miss with an atomic bomb, a plastic soft drink bottle is practically indestructable. I for one vow to never throw another one in the trash. Can you guy imagine how many of those empty things are buried in landfills around the world and will be there for 100's or 1000's of years?

 

GOOD GRIEF....I'm calling for a recycle bin today.

 

We might need to start thinking about ways of converting all of our soft drink bottles into caches...Sure they're a little big and it might be hard to get things in and out of them but I think some of you scientist/engineering types could come up with a plan. We'll name the new class of caches after you

[SpencerDub]

It would appear that, short of a near miss with an atomic bomb, a plastic soft drink bottle is practically indestructable.

 

Well, a plastic soft drink bottle preform is. Considering that the 5-inch preforms are used to make 8-inch soda bottles with much larger diameters, I would imagine the structural integrity of a bottle is much less than that of a preform.

 

Of course, I strongly agree with your call for recycling. I'm just not sure if the bottles themselves are actually as indestructible as their smaller preforms.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

I wonder how many geocachers carry hammers in their bag of tricks?

Or Hibachi grills?

 

Looks like they come in a variety of shapes and colors... you can even have your own mold made.

http://www.techasst.com/pet__bottle_preforms.htm

 

Edited August 5, 2008 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+J-Way]

It would appear that, short of a near miss with an atomic bomb, a plastic soft drink bottle is practically indestructable. I for one vow to never throw another one in the trash. Can you guy imagine how many of those empty things are buried in landfills around the world and will be there for 100's or 1000's of years?

 

GOOD GRIEF....I'm calling for a recycle bin today.

 

We might need to start thinking about ways of converting all of our soft drink bottles into caches...Sure they're a little big and it might be hard to get things in and out of them but I think some of you scientist/engineering types could come up with a plan. We'll name the new class of caches after you

To heck with landfills... what about the millions of bottles that float down storm drains, along rivers, then out into the ocean every year?? Check out the video at this link. Yet another reason why CITO is a good idea.

[+Wild Thing 73]

Wow, I ordered a box of these and was I surprised at the quantity of tubes, I mean wow!!!...I named them "mammoth tubes" and now I'm busy placing them all over this area. What the heck is a "mammoth tube"???? All in this area will know soon....I like um. Happy trails.

[+trainlove]

Hmm, interesting question about the UV. I have no high intensity UV source, so it would only be a matter of wait and see, if attempted. However, if your container is camoed in any way, that would preclude the necessity of testing the container itself. The camo would be the failure point.

 

That goes for any of these torture tests, I.E. high temperature will 'melt' off your cammo tape. Cold temperature might destroy your cammo tapes adhesive...

But as an aside for your freeze test. How well would they stand up to sledgehammering them to crack them out of an iceblock that you might find while caching? I broke some travel bugs that were inside an ammo can once while trying to do this.

 

They sell germicidal UV lamps. They are just clear fluorescent lamps. Some are used in toothbrush disinfection 'boxes'. You can also use a tanning bed lamp to do a UV torture test.

 

I've tested all 6 of the standardized plastics in the past. All clear thin sheets of 1 PETE, 2 HDPE, 3 V, 4 LDPE, 5 PP and 6 PS. After a year, in a file cabinet one foot away from an 18 watt 12" lamp, ALL of those plastics were very much no good. The vinyl was actually almost nontransparent anymore. The polystyrene was actually crumbly. I can't remember the details of any of the others but will go find them when I get home.

 

On high temperature tests, the PETE shrunk about 60%, but then again it's a thermoplastic not a thermoset so one can expect that. PS also shrunk, none of the others had a lasting effect.

 

For cold temperature tests, about 7 years ago, I got small 12-20 ounce bottles of those materials (hard to find for some of them), and filed them with liquid nitrogen. All survived. None cracked even when dropped 6 feet while at −321 °F and containing a few ounces of LN2.

 

These preforms should be more resiliant to anything since they are some 300% thinker than the materials I had tested.

 

I also even tested these plastics against radiation damage. Using 1 millicurie americinium 241 radiation sources, you all have at least 2 or 3 of these around your home, taped right to the plastics. Again for about a year. Being effectively 0 inches away from the plastics, the radiation density was nearly infinity, well you know what I mean. Each of them had a 2 mm diameter 'spot' right under where the source was located. Too small for me to test to see if they were brittle or whatever. But a fun test to run nonetheless.

 

P.S. Don't go and buy dollar store lock n lock containers. I dropped one about 5 feet, it only had 5 geocoins in it inside their little half-book plactic sleeves. The container now has a nice 5 inch long crack.

[+Star*Hopper]

Look - all this testing is well & good, & I'm sure you're having fun with it, but it's almost totally unneccessary. The wall thickness of these preforms is substantial, and take it from me, they ARE practically indestructible. At least (& especially) insofar as anything they'll face as a geocache container!

 

As someone alluded, look at the difference in the wall thickness once heated & blown up to 2-liter pop bottle size....almost paper-thin, right? Well, here's a li'l test you can perform.

 

Take an empty 2-liter bottle, put the cap back on it. Now, place it on the ground pointed cross-ways in front of you. Jump up in the air as high as you can, & come down on it stomping with both feet as hard as you can -- the Max Smasheroo!! Think you're gonna hear one massive 'POP' like a balloon? Think again. Be prepared for a surprise.

(Don't ask me how I know!!)

 

Also, don't even think about suing me for your cracked tailbone....or anything else! Experiment at your own risk.

 

Durable, I say!

~*

[+mvigor]

Now you've got me wondering if a person can reform a preform. Perhaps a used bottle can be boiled back down to a much smaller and stronger shape? I think I will try this.

[+trainlove]

Now you've got me wondering if a person can reform a preform. Perhaps a used bottle can be boiled back down to a much smaller and stronger shape? I think I will try this.

 

Soda bottle, NO.

But styrofoam can be 'condensed' down into a thick, clear, goo of polystyrene. Acetone, MEK, and various other 'bad for the ozone layer' chemicals attack PS I don't think that any of the other common plastics 'melt' chemically, but probably will be deleteriously affected.

[+brainandbraun]

kewl! where did you get the preforms? I'm interested in seeing how well they perform in your tests

 

There are many sellers on E bay selling these for around $2 each, but I went straight to Teachers Source and got 30 for $16.95 plus shipping.

Me too, we bought 30 of them. Cachers can use plastic primer paint and cammo tape to make them blend into their enviro. Been doing this a while.

Edited September 19, 2008 by brainandbraun

[+brainandbraun]

One can also use hot glue to fasten moss/sticks/gravel or whatever to mask their straight lines and make them blend.

[Mag Magician]

.....How well would they stand up to sledgehammering them to crack them out of an iceblock that you might find while caching? I broke some travel bugs that were inside an ammo can once while trying to do this.....

 

During my tests, I had 2 double A batteries inside the preform as ballast to keep it submerged. When smashing the ice block off the preform, and later, hitting the container direct on with an 8# sledge, the batteries were still bouncing around inside, with no padding.

 

One more thing I have noticed in found logs, since introducing these containers to the wild here, are comments about how difficult it is to remove the log. It appears that the preform is tapered toward the bottom, and rolled up logs tend to become wedged in. My latest innovation is borrowed from nano caches placed by another hider here. Secure the rolled up log to a stick, straw, whatever, before rolling. Leave your stick slightly longer than the log to allow a finger grip in order to extract the paper. I have gone to the dollar store and purchased a package of bamboo skewers which are cut to the proper length. Total cost, $1 for 100 skewers.

 

Mag Magician, formerly Team Magic

Edited September 19, 2008 by Mag Magician

[Mag Magician]

.....I also even tested these plastics against radiation damage. Using 1 millicurie americinium 241 radiation sources, you all have at least 2 or 3 of these around your home.....

 

Please enlighten us. Are you speaking about a microwave oven, or something else common that I fail to recognize from your description? Now you have me thinking!

[Clan Riffster]

Smoke detectors?

[+trainlove]

Smoke detectors?

 

Yes.

Most smoke detectors have a small alpha radiation source inside it. I don't suggest taking apart one, but if you did it's a small bit of black gunk on the little puck inside the black plastic sheild shell inside the detector.

Now it's not necessarily dangerous, but could be swollowed by kids, and then it is dangeropus. You could probably tape one to a portion of your body and after perhaps a year, have just as much chance of getting a melanoma as you did from your lifetime of sunbathing.

 

Oh, and even 1000 of these wouldn't make a 'dirty' bomb, but don't be an QWW.

Edited September 20, 2008 by trainlove

[+paleolith]

I've tested all 6 of the standardized plastics in the past. All clear thin sheets of 1 PETE, 2 HDPE, 3 V, 4 LDPE, 5 PP and 6 PS. After a year, in a file cabinet one foot away from an 18 watt 12" lamp, ALL of those plastics were very much no good.

In general, though, all of these EXCEPT polyethylene (HDPE and LDPE) should hold up well in sunlight. Soda and single-serving water bottles are PETE and should not be destroyed by sunlight. (One-gallon water jugs are often LDPE.)

 

To the person newly interested in recycling, recycle water bottles too, if you use them. Same material.

 

However, other factors obviously matter. I have seen PP containers completely destroyed by sunlight. My guess is that either the quality varies within the material, or that thickness affects the basic susceptibility to damage. Either could explain trainlove's results. The containers I have have seen destroyed are low quality lock-n-lock imitations and gladware-type -- thin, low quality food containers intended to be disposable.

 

I have a boxful of empty containers, probably one or two hundred, which held One Touch blood glucose test strips. These are black and the same size as a 35mm film canister. Not marked for type of plastic but I suspect they are PP -- polypropylene. (Film canisters, I'm pretty sure, are LDPE, partly explaining their poor performance outdoors.) They have to keep moisture out to protect the test strips. They close with a satisfying click. However, none of this proves that they will hold up under geocaching conditions. The plastic might not resist sunlight, or the closure might not be adequate with dirt around. If one of the people doing these torture tests would like to test a few, I'll be glad to mail you some. (No blood on the containers! These are the empties that the clean strips came out of!) Send me email if you are interested in testing them. If they pass the torture test, I'll donate them to a few worthy causes -- I'm not interested in placing them myself. Can't really justify the cost of mailing them to anyone else until testing has been done.

 

Edward

[Mag Magician]

I have a boxful of empty containers, probably one or two hundred, which held One Touch blood glucose test strips. These are black and the same size as a 35mm film canister. Not marked for type of plastic but I suspect they are PP -- polypropylene. (Film canisters, I'm pretty sure, are LDPE, partly explaining their poor performance outdoors.) They have to keep moisture out to protect the test strips. They close with a satisfying click. However, none of this proves that they will hold up under geocaching conditions. The plastic might not resist sunlight, or the closure might not be adequate with dirt around. If one of the people doing these torture tests would like to test a few, I'll be glad to mail you some. (No blood on the containers! These are the empties that the clean strips came out of!) Send me email if you are interested in testing them. If they pass the torture test, I'll donate them to a few worthy causes -- I'm not interested in placing them myself. Can't really justify the cost of mailing them to anyone else until testing has been done.

 

Edward

 

Edward, those containers are being field tested in this area. Team Royal is using them instead of film cans and so far (1 year) they are withstanding the rigors. Now that you have me thinking, I will grab a couple from him and torture test them. I have my doubts that they will withstand the smashing, but some submersion and ice tests would prove interesting.

 

Roger

[+Star*Hopper]

Following up on my previous comment: "Look - all this testing is well & good, & I'm sure you're having fun with it, but it's almost totally unneccessary. -- yada yada yada -- ...practically bulletproof.... yada, etc."

 

Lemme try this from a different tack.

All this testing...is unneccessary.

 

Just put the darn things to the ultimate test:

1- USE THEM!

2- If one does fail, for whatEVER reason, it won't be quickly. Either

(a) just replace it -or-

( don't use 'em any more.

 

Simple as that.

 

And lookit all the effort you saved!

Taa Daaaaaaaaaaa!!!

 

~*

Edited September 21, 2008 by Star*Hopper

[+webscouter.]

Following up on my previous comment: "Look - all this testing is well & good, & I'm sure you're having fun with it, but it's almost totally unneccessary. -- yada yada yada -- ...practically bulletproof.... yada, etc."

 

Lemme try this from a different tack.

All this testing...is unneccessary.

 

Just put the darn things to the ultimate test:

1- USE THEM!

2- If one does fail, for whatEVER reason, it won't be quickly. Either

(a) just replace it -or-

( don't use 'em any more.

 

Simple as that.

 

And lookit all the effort you saved!

Taa Daaaaaaaaaaa!!!

 

~*

 

For some people the enjoyment comes out of the testing procedure. It looks to me like Mag Magician enjoys the process as much as he enjoys to cache. Therefor although enneccessary the endevour isn't pointless nor has the effort been a burden. Sounds to me like the responders and the OP are having a grand time.

 

Press on my fellow tinkerers!

[+Star*Hopper]

For some people the enjoyment comes out of the testing procedure. It looks to me like Mag Magician enjoys the process as much as he enjoys to cache. Therefor although enneccessary the endevour isn't pointless nor has the effort been a burden. Sounds to me like the responders and the OP are having a grand time.

 

Press on my fellow tinkerers!

 

Oh -- I know.....& it's kewl & all that. And said so. And fine by me, for sure!

It's just that....I'm a lazy ol' cuss, myself. Path of least resistance....all that?

 

You know how, to a man with a new hammer, everything looks like a nail?

& the definition of 'Will Power' -- The ability to re-cover & put away a half-can of paint?

 

~*

[Mag Magician]

Star*Hopper, I was born lazy and that made me smart, or I was born smart and that made me lazy. I have no clue which way it happened, but I have learned that the path of least resistance in placing caches is placing smart and lazy.

 

I have used some type containers that were reputed to be the best and latest innovation, only to have them fail within a few months. Just check out the maintenance logs and archived logs on my hides. Now, If I can test a container before placing it in the wild, thereby saving me many unnecessary maintenance trips, I will pass that information on to other cache hiders who may or may not benefit from that information.

 

If the forum world of geocaching wants no more constructive information being posted, I can certainly avoid posting. (well, not really! I'm a forum junkie)

 

Thanks to all who have responded on this thread, and I hope to see you all in the field some day.

Roger

[+webscouter.]

 

If the forum world of geocaching wants no more constructive information being posted, I can certainly avoid posting. (well, not really! I'm a forum junkie)

 

Roger

 

Hey I was enjoying this thread, hence my defense of it. Can't wait to see your analysis of true Lock-N-Lock vs imitation Lock-N-Lock containers.