Another Colorado 400t rant (newbie post)

[iRoam]

I'm totally new to the hobby of geocaching and felt the need to purchase a hand held GPS for this. Having purchased a Garmin Nuvi 200W and being very satisfied with it, I've decided to stick with Garmin for brand.

 

I didn't purchase my 400t at a store, but I got it on Ebay for less that I'd ever pay at an electronics store.

 

I know there are many topics on the troubles with this device, and I just wanted to share mine with others here. I know you've probably heard of them before. As soon as I got home, I updated the firmware to version 2.6 thinking that would solve much of the complaints. The problem is, it didn't.

 

What bugs me about the 400t is that I am not moving and I have the device just resting on my dashboard in my car and the trip computer is logging miles as if I was mysteriously moving. As I type this topic, my garmin has already moved 0.1 miles.

 

Also, what is up with the maps? They are very inaccurate. I'd be driving perfectly on a given road yet my garmin has me driving 120 feet off the road to the left. I've even taken a walk on my street and have followed the tracks and compared it to my street as given on the maps.

 

Now, I know my Nuvi wasn't made for geocaching, but I really expected better from Garmin here. I'd love to find a good GPS for geocaching thats reliable, sturdy, and accurate.

 

Go easy on me, I'm new to this stuff.

[iRoam]

Should I just find a way to get rid of this GPS and purchase a 60CSx instead?

 

I will try to find a Geocache tomorrow and see how this unit fares.

[iRoam]

I'm sitting here at my desk holding my Colorado 400t and watching the blue arrow drift. 15,16,17,18,19,20,21mph and watching the speed increase and the arrow drifts over a half mile away from where I am. Then I lose signal. When I regain the signal my blue arrow snaps back to where I am. What fun.

 

I'm surprised that garmin can put such crap on the market like this. We are the beta testers after all.

 

BUMP

[andylphoto]

Well, I can't speak directly to the Colorado, as I don't own one. However, in general...

 

You mention sitting at your desk, by which I assume you're not in your front yard with a clear view of the sky. If you're inside, your satellite reception will be obviously degraded, which would account for some of the "wandering," I think. If the location where your GPS thinks it's located moves, because it has a better (or worse) fix on the satellites, your position moves, and the GPS will log mileage, even if it's just sitting on your desk. You know it's not moving, but it doesn't. You give it too much credit.

 

As far as the roads being off, again, I can't speak directly to the Colorado. But if you're using the built-in basemap, it won't be exact. It's meant to give you a general idea of where you are, but roads won't be precisely located, and every twist and turn will NOT be included. It's just the nature of basemaps. The more detail, the more memory they take up. If you want precise street maps, purchase City Navigator. I think the Colorado comes with built-in topo maps as well. Are you saying these are off by the same amount, or are you just referring to the basemap?

[yogazoo]

You said you have the 400t? Well, those maps are only as good as the data used to make them which was free state by state data (generally the Tiger 2000 set) which is and has been known to be very innacurate in places. It's the nature of the beast. You want accurate street maps then purchase the CityNav series, you want accurate topographic and land feature data then be happy with your Topo2008 on the 400t. I agree, they should be more accurate than they are but thats the price for not being a locked product that Garmin owes royalties for.

 

As for drifting, that's also normal, especially when inside. Your asking satellites in outer space to pinpoint your location here on earth, imagine the potential for slight errors now and then. The unit doesn't recognize the errors as such, it just thinks it's moving. If you were outside with a clear view of the sky you would see much less drift, but you would still see it. The Colorado is known to have problems with drift above and beyond the normal range. All we can hope for in this case is some better firmware/software in the future.

Edited July 31, 2008 by yogazoo

[+Wesbo]

Should I just find a way to get rid of this GPS and purchase a 60CSx instead?

 

I will try to find a Geocache tomorrow and see how this unit fares.

 

Was your ebay Colorado NIB? It may be that you bought somebody else's problem or just ended up with a bum copy. Maybe you could hook up with a local geocacher with a similar unit and compare to see if your issues are truly hardware issues. If they are and you are under warranty, let Garmin make it good for you.

[+Red90]

The things you are reporting are normal for any GPS as explained above. There is nothing wrong with the unit.

[+loknlod]

I have the Colorado 300 and purchased City Nav 2009, the turn by turn works great with that combo, as good as any Nuvi. I really really like my Colorado.

[MtnHermit]

I have the Colorado 300 and purchased City Nav 2009, the turn by turn works great with that combo, as good as any Nuvi. I really really like my Colorado.

Really, you get spoken turn directions?? If so, I'm impressed.

[+rkelso]

I have the Colorado 300 and purchased City Nav 2009, the turn by turn works great with that combo, as good as any Nuvi. I really really like my Colorado.

Really, you get spoken turn directions?? If so, I'm impressed.

 

It's the same routing engine, he didn't say anything about spoken directions. Why do Nuvi people seem to have such an inferiority complex?

 

Back on topic. The base map included with the 400t is at a scale of 1:100,000. Think about having a map on a standard 8.5x11 sheet where 1" roughly equals 1.5 miles. So if you zoom way in, the accuracy of that scale isn't improving at all, you are just seeing errors propagated by going in closer.

[iRoam]

Should I just find a way to get rid of this GPS and purchase a 60CSx instead?

 

I will try to find a Geocache tomorrow and see how this unit fares.

 

Was your ebay Colorado NIB? It may be that you bought somebody else's problem or just ended up with a bum copy. Maybe you could hook up with a local geocacher with a similar unit and compare to see if your issues are truly hardware issues. If they are and you are under warranty, let Garmin make it good for you.

 

My 400t was new in box and never used. I'm going to search for a cache today and hopefully I can find it without this map innacuracy/drift making the geocaching experience painful.

 

Does the 60CSx drift and have such map/stree inaccuracies as the Colorado? I know there are many 60CSx users here.

[+Red90]

My 400t was new in box and never used. I'm going to search for a cache today and hopefully I can find it without this map innacuracy/drift making the geocaching experience painful.

 

The "drift" people talk about is very rare. I've seen it 3 times in 5 months. It is not really "drift". It is an error in the calculations of position due to a bug in the software.

[MtnHermit]

I have the Colorado 300 and purchased City Nav 2009, the turn by turn works great with that combo, as good as any Nuvi. I really really like my Colorado.

Really, you get spoken turn directions?? If so, I'm impressed.

 

It's the same routing engine, he didn't say anything about spoken directions. Why do Nuvi people seem to have such an inferiority complex?

"As good as any Nuvi" seems to include everything, at least to me.

 

Actually I believe it is a superiority complex.

[+rkelso]

 

My 400t was new in box and never used. I'm going to search for a cache today and hopefully I can find it without this map innacuracy/drift making the geocaching experience painful.

 

 

Map inaccuracy shouldn't affect finding a cache, as your unit downloads the actual coordinates of the geocache which you are navigating to, this is not influenced by your GPSr's base map. However, some geocaches have poor coordinates either on purpose or because the person who hid it wasn't able to collect quality coordinates with their GPS. That's usually not a big deal as any recreational GPS is only reliably accurate to ~10-15 feet at best in real-time anyways.

[+Ratsneve]

Establishing warranty with Garmin is going to be important I think. You have paid to help beta test a new product for Garmin which has had and still has many problems of varying sort depending on what you use the unit for and what you are familiar with. Many have already had their unit replaced at least once. I did for an erratic electronic compass and for a wandering location mark while traveling. I believe even the more mature 60csx still has some issues with it. Go to the Colorado Wiki link at the top of this forum and feast on the issues and compare features.

 

How long has the 60csx been out for? If for over a year is Garmin still improving its software? Maybe you would have wished for the new Oregon with a touchscreen? But if Garmin continues to work off and fix all the problems and features of the Colorado you (we) might end up with great geocaching/tripping portable GPSr in a year...and be ready for the next "better" GPS introduction? This way we can continue to beta test the technology for Garmin at our expense--what a great deal they have going! We must be patient and have fun with the technology.

Edited July 31, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+Gob-ler]

I'll tell you what, I have my old 60CSx that I don't use a whole lot anymore since I got my Colorado, I am willing to trade you even up. The 60CSx has topo and CN in it so it will autoroute.

 

Want to make a deal?

 

A little bit of drifting around is considered the norm for the newer GPS platforms with the high sensitivity chips. I would make sure that you let it set with a clear view of the sky for about 30 minutes so the GPS can build its index of satellites properly.

[+Ratsneve]

I'll tell you what, I have my old 60CSx that I don't use a whole lot anymore since I got my Colorado, I am willing to trade you even up. The 60CSx has topo and CN in it so it will autoroute.

 

Want to make a deal?

 

A little bit of drifting around is considered the norm for the newer GPS platforms with the high sensitivity chips. I would make sure that you let it set with a clear view of the sky for about 30 minutes so the GPS can build its index of satellites properly.

I'm very interested (not in the deal) if you would share the features you like most about the Colorado that the 60CSx doesn't do at all or does poorly in comparison? When do you still prefer using the 60CSx over your new Colorado and why? I know what both do but I don't know what either does _very well_ compared to the other.

 

I'd like to think that the time and struggle getting my Colorado working properly will be worth it in the end for both geocaching and trip routing. That having a more sensitive receiver then the 60CSx will be worth it? That having better accuracy (different antenna) and the R-n-R will make a more versatile and tougher GPSr over the Oregon? That I won't miss not having certain features or mapping that the 60CSx and/or Oregon might have. That many software features will still be added.

 

Thanks.

Edited July 31, 2008 by Ratsneve

[+twolpert]

I hate to wade in here, but since there's a newbie on the thread, I will... There are three separate issues under discussion with regard to the Colorado. We need to keep them straight in our heads. So here they are, all in one place.

 

1) "Wandering". These are random shifts in reported position which you see while standing still. This might manifest as the "blue arrow" moving around on the map, or as changes in your coordinates if you are on a screen which displays them. You will also see the shifts if you examine your track on the map. This will be worse under tree cover, near large hills, inside buildings, inside cars, etc. This behavior is normal for high-sensitivity receivers like the Colorado. This is basically the price you pay for holding lock in challenging conditions. We can hope for software changes which might make it less noticeable, but it's not going to go away.

 

2) "Drift". This is a very specific problem which has been discussed ad nauseum in other places. It happens very infrequently, although some users see it more often than others. The most obvious symptom is that your reported position gradually diverges from your actual position as you walk along. The accumulated error can be quite large (several hundred feet while walking a few tenths of a mile). You might not even realize you are experiencing the problem unless you are comparing your current track with a known good track, or with a known good waypoint, or you arrive at a point which you can identify on the map -- and which is not where your GPSr says you are. This large accumulated error is usually accompanied by much higher than normal EPE (a much larger than normal number for "GPS Accuracy" as displayed by the Colorado) -- typically 100 feet or more. The condition clears itself only if you power the unit off and on. The concensus is that this is a software problem and we all hope for a fix eventually.

 

3) "Topo map accuracy". The topos (both those in the 400t and the Topo 2008 series on disk) are based on 1:100,000 maps. Generally speaking, the contour data and other geographic information is quite good given the scale. However, the position of roads is not. Do not be misled when your GPS/topo map shows you far from a road when you are standing on it. Your GPSr is reporting an accurate position. It's the map that's bad. Garmin is not going to fix this. If you want to use the GPSr on the road, invest in City Navigator.

[schmidtbaby]

The things you are reporting are normal for any GPS as explained above. There is nothing wrong with the unit.

 

May I respectively differ with this statement. This behavior with the Colorado is the same reaon I returned mine!!! I left the 400 T by accident overnight and it showed tracks all over the place - without ever even moved.

 

I never saw this with my 60scx!!!

 

I don't feel this is normal behaviour for a GPS.

[+Cherokee Bill]

I'll tell you what, I have my old 60CSx that I don't use a whole lot anymore since I got my Colorado, I am willing to trade you even up. The 60CSx has topo and CN in it so it will autoroute.

 

Want to make a deal?

 

A little bit of drifting around is considered the norm for the newer GPS platforms with the high sensitivity chips. I would make sure that you let it set with a clear view of the sky for about 30 minutes so the GPS can build its index of satellites properly.

I'm very interested (not in the deal) if you would share the features you like most about the Colorado that the 60CSx doesn't do at all or does poorly in comparison? When do you still prefer using the 60CSx over your new Colorado and why? I know what both do but I don't know what either does _very well_ compared to the other.

 

I'd like to think that the time and struggle getting my Colorado working properly will be worth it in the end for both geocaching and trip routing. That having a more sensitive receiver then the 60CSx will be worth it? That having better accuracy (different antenna) and the R-n-R will make a more versatile and tougher GPSr over the Oregon? That I won't miss not having certain features or mapping that the 60CSx and/or Oregon might have. That many software features will still be added.

 

Thanks.

 

A Newbe here!!!!! OK! I want to put a geocache a few feet of the Appalachian Trail (in the mountains) as well as be able to find other caches in similiar locations.

 

1. Is the 60SCX a good choice, or will a less expensive one work (I do want a card-slot) as well.

2. For such cashes what map types do you suggest?

 

Thanks

[+Red90]

May I respectively differ with this statement. This behavior with the Colorado is the same reason I returned mine!!! I left the 400 T by accident overnight and it showed tracks all over the place - without ever even moved.

 

I never saw this with my 60scx!!!

 

I don't feel this is normal behaviour for a GPS.

 

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The 60csx (or any GPS for that matter) would have done the same thing. I run a large mapping project. I spend stupid amounts of time looking at track logs. I compare 60csx to Colorado tracks all the time. There is no more normal drift with a Colorado versus a 60Csx in the same conditions. Put them both in the same location and then look at the track logs. You won't find any scientifically measurable difference.

[mulveyr]

My 400t was new in box and never used. I'm going to search for a cache today and hopefully I can find it without this map innacuracy/drift making the geocaching experience painful.

 

The "drift" people talk about is very rare. I've seen it 3 times in 5 months. It is not really "drift". It is an error in the calculations of position due to a bug in the software.

 

I wouldn't call it "rare" when I take my 400T out several times a week for geocaching, and I encounter the drift problem nearly every time. It's at the point where I have to turn it off and on again when I think I'm within a few hundred yards of the cache just to be able to get a good reading.

[+storm180]

This drift thing is crazy. I guess I am one of lucky ones who have not experienced any drifts. I check my track log every time I get home and compare it to my 60CSx and still never experienced anything. I have gotten "wander" before on both when I was on ahillside in a valley and going through a canyon. Going through the canyon in regards to finding caches the 60CSx did better since my better half found most of the caches and I was looking in bushes 40 ft away. I chalked the 40feet off to being in a canyon and not to the dreaded drift which people claim have thrown them 400-600 feet off. Now thats drift.

Edited August 1, 2008 by storm180

[+Marky]

The things you are reporting are normal for any GPS as explained above. There is nothing wrong with the unit.

 

May I respectively differ with this statement. This behavior with the Colorado is the same reaon I returned mine!!! I left the 400 T by accident overnight and it showed tracks all over the place - without ever even moved.

 

I never saw this with my 60scx!!!

 

I don't feel this is normal behaviour for a GPS.

 

You left it on indoors or outdoors overnight? If indoors, you'd expect to see some wandering due to GPS signal reflection/obstruction. If you are talking about leaving it on overnight while you were out camping under a clear sky, then I'd say that might be a problem.

 

--Marky

[+Mudfrog]

May I respectively differ with this statement. This behavior with the Colorado is the same reason I returned mine!!! I left the 400 T by accident overnight and it showed tracks all over the place - without ever even moved.

 

I never saw this with my 60scx!!!

 

I don't feel this is normal behaviour for a GPS.

 

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. The 60csx (or any GPS for that matter) would have done the same thing. I run a large mapping project. I spend stupid amounts of time looking at track logs. I compare 60csx to Colorado tracks all the time. There is no more normal drift with a Colorado versus a 60Csx in the same conditions. Put them both in the same location and then look at the track logs. You won't find any scientifically measurable difference.

 

No, in my opinion, this is not normal a behavior for a properly working unit. From what was posted, the OP's Colorado doesn't seem to be operating correctly. I'm not an expert but i have been using GPSr units for several years and geocaching since early 2002. What the OP is describing is something i've never seen on any of my units. I just bought a 76cx with the high sensitivity electronics and can actually use it inside the house without it varying more than a 20 or 30 feet. Yes, there are all kinds of things that can affect operation, but i wouldn't hesitate to have the unit looked at or get my money back if it drifted .1 miles as in the OP's case..

Edited August 1, 2008 by Mudfrog

[andylphoto]

 

No, in my opinion, this is not normal a behavior for a properly working unit. From what was posted, the OP's Colorado doesn't seem to be operating correctly. I'm not an expert but i have been using GPSr units for several years and geocaching since early 2002. What the OP is describing is something i've never seen on any of my units. I just bought a 76cx with the high sensitivity electronics and can actually use it inside the house without it varying more than a 20 or 30 feet. Yes, there are all kinds of things that can affect operation, but i wouldn't hesitate to have the unit looked at or get my money back if it drifted .1 miles as in the OP's case..

 

If you leave your unit on long enough indoors with position changes of 20 to 30 feet, it won't take long for those changes to add up. .1 mile is only 528 feet...that' less than 200 changes of 30 feet. The OP said his GPS had moved a total of .1 mile, but he did not say how long it had been sitting there registering small changes in position.

 

I've left my 60Cx on in my vehicle--not on the dash, but in a cupholder in front of the dash, for extended periods of time. If I look at my track log, it looks like a ball of twine at that location. I have not paid attention to the odometer in cases like this to see how much it has added, but presumed positional changes like this do accumulate in the odometer.

 

If the OP is sitting inside his home with less than optimum reception, and leaves his unit on for an extended period of time, seeing positional changes that add up to 500 feet would not be unreasonable. Seeing a 500 foot change in position would be, but that's not how I read his statement.

[+twolpert]

What bugs me about the 400t is that I am not moving and I have the device just resting on my dashboard in my car and the trip computer is logging miles as if I was mysteriously moving. As I type this topic, my garmin has already moved 0.1 miles.

As stated in the post immediately above this reply, the odometer reflects the cumulative effects of "wandering". "Wandering" is a result of multi-path reception. It is inherent in high-sensitivity receivers. It manifests itself as relatively small (say up to 20 or 30 feet) changes in apparent position when you are standing still. These changes happen frequently and they will add up on the odometer over time. Similarly, if you examine the track, you will see the "ball of string" effect also mentioned above.

 

Although your dashboard is about the best place you can put the receiver in a car, it is still subject to multi-path problems. The magnitude of the problem will vary with the characteristics of your car, and with the geometry of the satellites overhead.

 

But it IS normal.