+Star*Hopper Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I'm thinking of starting to include a standard clause or practice on my hides. Namely, no "co-FTFs" allowed. I kinda feel like, there can be only one actual FTF, and that includes when teams or 2 parties arrive separately at the same time. Case in point - one of my caches had the 'hounds' out pre-dawn....one vehicle was a local 'FTF hound'; the other arrived a minute later bearing a father-son team (also noted for being 'hounds') from a nearby community. They joined forces, & found the cache soon enough. Or rather, the son actually found it. But the other two "agreed" (their words) among themselves to "share the FTF". I won't argue the aesthetics....simply saying, as it is 'First' and not 'Firsts', for some reason the practice bothers me, and I've a feeling it shouldn't be allowed -- that only the first physical finder should be allowed the FTF claim. After all, there's only one FTF 'prize' inside, and they didn't (couldn't!) share that! I know it's MY hide, to specify for as I choose....that's not the concern nor issue. I just want to hear others' thoughts on the matter. Is it really right, or fair to the real FTFr's credits, to allow co-FTF 'claims' when he/she was the actual, true, one-and-only First to find the cache? But mainly - is it too outlandish or 'unfair' of me to place that stricture on my new caches? Thanx! ~S*H Quote Link to comment
+KoosKoos Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I think you CAN do this on your own caches, but I also think it's a bit outlandish. If it was just the father/son team searching and they log only as a team, how do they log the FTF? Only one of their "team" can be the first to pick it up, so only half the "team" could claim FTF? It was a group hunt, they agreed to hunt it as a team for that moment, so they've claimed co-FTF. There's no official competition for the hounds, so what's the harm? Quote Link to comment
+TMDMom Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I guess I haven't thought about it enough to care one way or another. Hmmm...how do I feel about this? Well, it's your cache, you play it the way you want to. But other cachers will play it the way they want to. That's the beauty of the game. If you are going to put a "Congrats to CacherX for FTF", then you can pick which one sounds like the real FTF from the logs, or just not add that to the cache page. I'm not really an FTF hound. My daughter has two, but to be honest that was because the CO asked that the FTF honors be reserved for a kid, and people were posting notes for a kid to hurry up and find it so they could go get it. We were happy to oblige, and it was cool. FTF hunts add a little more excitement, but I don't usually rush right out to try to grab them, but if I were out with my cache buddy and she found it first, I'd say absolutely, you are FTF. If I find it first, I'd offer to share, but she'd probably say no. I think it's usually a case of the hunters trying to be nice to each other. How can that be a bad thing? Quote Link to comment
+Lasagna Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Since it's not an "official" designation, just kind of bragging rights, I'm not sure it really matters. However, I frequently cache with a co-worker and we have a rule when there's an FTF at stake. Namely ... first hands on the container are the FTF. If you see it, but can't reach it ... it doesn't count as an FTF ... you must physically be holding the container. Everyone else was along to witness the FTF and can claim it as a find, but not the FTF. Quote Link to comment
+ChileHead Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Often when caching with another person, we'll walk up to the same pile of sticks at the same time. Who's FTF? I dunno. It doesn't matter. People can claim FTF for anything they want. Many keep a bookmark lists of all their FTFs so they can keep track. You can't dictate what people put in their bookmark list, so while my online log might not say "co-FTF" so you don't delete my log, I may still count it in my bookmark list. Quote Link to comment
+dctalk007 Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I think co-ftf are fine because they were all there for finding it. Quote Link to comment
+Miragee Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 <snip> But mainly - is it too outlandish or 'unfair' of me to place that stricture on my new caches? Yes . . . But seriously, haven't you ever spotted a cache at exactly the same time as another person you are caching with? I have, many times. I think it is great that people agree to claim Co-FTF instead of disagreeing on who was actually FTF. No need to cause more potential angst in what is supposed to be a fun game. Quote Link to comment
+The Find Its Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I am VERY new to the sport and maybe not quite as addicted; however I feel the cache owner can place any restrictions he/she/they want to place on the cache and it is up to the finder to abide or not. I only hope the finder will, out of respect for the effort put into the placing of a cache. Since your request is for only the FTF, I think it is a fairly innocuous request and really only counts towards the on line log so should not bother the people who still treat this a fun activity which gets us out to see the beautiful world we live in. (please note I have NO FTF's) Still it is only a game and we should enjoy the hunt as long as no one & nothing is hurt along the way. My 4 cents. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I know it's MY hide, to specify for as I choose....that's not the concern nor issue. I just want to hear others' thoughts on the matter. Is it really right, or fair to the real FTFr's credits, to allow co-FTF 'claims' when he/she was the actual, true, one-and-only First to find the cache? But mainly - is it too outlandish or 'unfair' of me to place that stricture on my new caches? A FTF is not something to be claimed or awarded. It's a simple statement of fact. I'm curious how you would police this anyway. If someone says he is a co-FTF do you delete his online log? Do you send him a nasty e-mail? Do you put a banner on the cache page saying "Joe Geocacher says is was FTF but he really isn't"? When a couple or a group of friends cache together it's customary for them all to log a "found it" regardless of who actually uncovered the cache. They worked together as a team and the team found the cache. I don't think that changes just because they were the first to find it. Besides, why should anybody else care if they want to call themselves co-FTF? What difference does it make? Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Sometimes, people make personal decisions to get worked up over things that don't really matter. We see that an awful lot in these forums. Quote Link to comment
+flask Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 if i'm looking for a FF and i go with my friends, we might agree each to look in a different stump. if we had to have only one of us be the FTF, we would probably race to FF caches and then refuse to take credit for the FF, even going so far as to delete our found logs AFTER the owner publicly declares us FTF or sends us the big, whoppin' prize or whatever high hosannas get sung for finding a cache first. that'd be our signatures on the first page of that logbook and there's be nothing you could do about our gigantic failure to claim a find, let alone a first find. as i said in a cache log once upon a time: "i was never here. just try to prove that i was." i won't elbow my friends out of my way to beat them to the FF. if we came together, we found it first. if we all arrived there during the first hunt, we found it first. i value my friends more than i value your petty attempt to get us to play against each other. it would please me very much to undermine the effort. Quote Link to comment
+vw_k Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 A FTF is not an official label or achievement on geocaching.com, you get no smiley or anything for it, it's just a label the finder gives themself. If two or more people hunt together on one of my caches and want to share the FTF it doesn't bother me. All they've done is found a hidden tupperware box and called themselves three capital letters! Each to their own really, when I hide caches I get my enjoyment from knowing others have enjoyed finding the cache, if the first two both want to say they found it first, I dont care. Quote Link to comment
+Tequila Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I think it is a very civilized and good sportsmanship concept. I have a very difficult cache, GC11PZW, which requires players to find every combo of D/T to log a find. Several cachers have been working hard on it for months. Last week, the two best competitors crossed the finish line together. And it was a great way to end it. Quote Link to comment
+Lil Devil Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I think it is great that people agree to claim Co-FTF instead of disagreeing on who was actually FTF. No need to cause more potential angst in what is supposed to be a fun game. That has got to be the best reply in this entire thread. It's just a game, folks. Shouldn't it be the finders who decide if they're sharing FTF bragging rights or not, instead of the cache owner? My buddy and I were FTF just a few days ago and after a 3 mile hike to get there, we happily shared the honors. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I'm thinking of starting to include a standard clause or practice on my hides. Namely, no "co-FTFs" allowed. I kinda feel like, there can be only one actual FTF, and that includes when teams or 2 parties arrive separately at the same time. Case in point - one of my caches had the 'hounds' out pre-dawn....one vehicle was a local 'FTF hound'; the other arrived a minute later bearing a father-son team (also noted for being 'hounds') from a nearby community. They joined forces, & found the cache soon enough. Or rather, the son actually found it. But the other two "agreed" (their words) among themselves to "share the FTF". I won't argue the aesthetics....simply saying, as it is 'First' and not 'Firsts', for some reason the practice bothers me, and I've a feeling it shouldn't be allowed -- that only the first physical finder should be allowed the FTF claim. After all, there's only one FTF 'prize' inside, and they didn't (couldn't!) share that! I know it's MY hide, to specify for as I choose....that's not the concern nor issue. I just want to hear others' thoughts on the matter. Is it really right, or fair to the real FTFr's credits, to allow co-FTF 'claims' when he/she was the actual, true, one-and-only First to find the cache? But mainly - is it too outlandish or 'unfair' of me to place that stricture on my new caches? Thanx! ~S*H Carried to the next illogical extreme, if a group of cachers (let's say 5 teams) is out having a grand time together finding caches, truly only one individual out of all the people looking for a cache actually FINDS it, and all the others just happened to be there when it was found. Does the team of the finder log the find, with all the other teams leaving without signing the log? I don't think so. Is the FTF such a big deal that it should be treated any differently? I don't think so. I have been in many situations where I have been joined while attempting the FTF, or I have joined others...sometimes I have been out with my wife (who has her own username). It has always been an agreement between the parties at the cache whether it was a co-FTF or not. If the other team says 'we don't do co-FTFs' that's fine with me. Eventually, if your restrictions progressed to the final extreme, the FTF would only go to the one surviving long enough to sign the log, and not necessarily the one to actually get to it first. Quote Link to comment
+wapahani Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 Guess I don't see why it matters. I recently set a 5/3.5 cache, a couple and friend came together and spent several hours searching for it over the course of a couple days, better then 5 hours total. When they found it, they claimed the Co-FTF on it. They also found 2 other of my caches that had just been set, those also Co-FTF. Its just a bragging right, I didn't give out prizes other then their names on the cache pages as being Co-FTF. If they agree, then so be it. Otherwise they can fuss and fight over it. We aren't FTF Hounds, but we know who is in our area. So be it if they want it. Its your cache, you own it, you make your rules. If you don't want a Co-FTF, then say you wont award it as such. If you worry about someone stealing the FTF on the log, then say if they claim it and you check the actual log, then it will be pulled. YOUR CACHE! Quote Link to comment
+TheAlabamaRambler Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 But mainly - is it too outlandish or 'unfair' of me to place that stricture on my new caches? Yes, and petty and silly to boot! Let cachers cache, you don't need to control them. Quote Link to comment
+briansnat Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 (edited) if i'm looking for a FF and i go with my friends, we might agree each to look in a different stump.... That's all part of caching as a team. I recall a FTF I had with 3 others on a really tough multi. We planned the cache as a group. One of us checked the tide tables to determine our start time (we needed to do it on the outgoing tide). Another checked sat photos and topo maps to determine our jumping off point. In the field it turned out that each stage had a correct next stage and a false one. We carried walkie talkies and went off in pairs. If one group found a stage/or one of the wild goose chases, we'd call the other to let them know which and head off to the next stage. I think most of us probably found at least 1 stage (nobody kept count). When we encountered obsticals we discussed the alternatives and came to a consensus. At the final stage we needed to project a waypoint to determine the final cache location. One team member knew how to do that and did. When we finally arrived at ground zero for the final stage I was the one who actually found the container. So do I deserve the FTF any more or less than the rest of the team? Whether it's a complicated cache like that one, or just a parking lot micro where my partner and I choose to check different lamp posts we are all part of the team that found the cache, regardless of who actually saw it first. Edited July 21, 2008 by briansnat Quote Link to comment
+Konnarock Kid & Marge Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 It's a game! Up here in our neck of the woods we have too many that take the game and themselves much, much too seriously. Please don't be guilty of that. The World will not come to an end if there are multi-FTFs. Thanks. Quote Link to comment
+WRASTRO Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I see this as a non-issue. Much better to have co-FTF than to have bad feelings between cachers as to who is the REAL FTF. Figure out a way to encourage friendships as opposed to creating rivalries. How about everyone who finds the cache within seven days of publication gets to share FTF honors and will have their names engraved on the FTF plaque? Ok, so maybe not. Co-FTF is still a non-issue (or should be). Quote Link to comment
+The finch farmers Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I went back to the parking lot to see if he was on the hunt. I had to wait for this person to get geared up to go find this. I would have had the FTF by myself but with him pulling in I felt I should wait. See the logs below. April 3 by The finch farmers (155 found) Had a very nice talk with a new caching friend. Thanks for the Co-FTF! TFTC SL Yes I am height challenged! [view/edit logs/images on a separate page] April 3 by luvlandnav (89 found) Ran into TFF on this one and shared a FTF. Was the 3rd of six for me today. SL TFTC! [view this log on a separate page] Play as you will but in my mind of the 4 caches at that location which I had 3 FTF's the Co-FTF was the best! Dont worry be happy Quote Link to comment
+Lacomo Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 But mainly - is it too outlandish or 'unfair' of me to place that stricture on my new caches? Yes, and petty and silly to boot! Let cachers cache, you don't need to control them. I agree you don't need to control them. It's only a game and if you let some petty little thing like that bother you then it's your loss, your missing out on some of the fun part of the game. Quote Link to comment
+Star*Hopper Posted July 21, 2008 Author Share Posted July 21, 2008 Mucho t'anx for all your responses. But welllllllllllll........I kinda set you guys up. It is yes very much a competition....especially between these individuals. Their profiles contain a list of their FTF's....and a quite extensive list it is. They brag about it. They rib each other. They purely gloat over it! *LOL* And yes, I know it's between themselves, but the 'bragging rights' does play a big part in it. To them, anyway. Let me give you an example of how 'eat up' they are. One of them, I heard telling a tale at an event. He's all set up to watch a football playoff game on tv, right? ..... one he's been anticipating for weeks. His team's in it....yay!!! Beer's chilled....popcorn's popped....and it's game time! His cell-phone alert goes off.....a new cache has been published. He figured he had a shot at the FTF, so shot out the door & tore off down the road. He was (in HIS words) 'driving like a maniac' trying to beat out his #1 competitor, whom he knew would have received the same alert....and gets pulled by a cop!! Now what do you think his very first concern would've been? Speeding ticket? Points on his driver's license? Time lost from work being in court? 'There goes my insurance rates!'?!?!? Nope....again his words - "When the blue lights came on (the cop car), I thought "Oh NO!!! CacheMonster is gonna beat me to the FTF!" !!!!! Now, is that sick or what??? So please......DON'T say it's not a competition! <<< (& note that 'winky' before you tear into me on that one!!) On the particular cache I cited, the local dood I guess felt 'his territory' had been invaded. The "their words" was actually the father-son team's....and he felt like he, being outnumbered, really had no call in the matter....if one of them found it, he could share the claim, and if he found it, they were gonna "grab" their part anyway.....that they had the 'unfair advantage' of the out-vote in the decision. And ya see......somehow in all their angst & rivalry, I somehow magically became the bad guy! Because I allowed it! Me - merely the one who'd scouted out the cache site.....planned the hide.....spent the money for the container....money on the gas for the 3 or 4 trips to the site to set up & execute it.....not to mention the thought, the time & the effort. Me, who did the whole dang thing in furtherance of the freakin' hobby. Me, who was snug abed & sound asleep while my nefarious plot came to fruition.....my plot to rob one of these erstwhile "players" of his bragging rights by my thoughtless inattention to details!! I'm not gonna place any such strictures on my hides. It's already plenty enough work settin' 'em up as it is. And what do I care if 65 people show up in 8 'VRPs' (Viking Raiding Parties) & each claims HE was THE "first" to find it......that's their hell to endure! But .... just one of 'em doesn't like something that happened - & it's my fault? Please!!! Sometimes ya just can't win for losing. *** Quote Link to comment
+The Blorenges Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Star*Hopper, I just loved your story above - It made me chuckle over my mid-morning coffee - Thanks! MrsB Quote Link to comment
+Headhardhat Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I think it is great that people agree to claim Co-FTF instead of disagreeing on who was actually FTF. No need to cause more potential angst in what is supposed to be a fun game. That has got to be the best reply in this entire thread. It's just a game, folks. Shouldn't it be the finders who decide if they're sharing FTF bragging rights or not, instead of the cache owner? My buddy and I were FTF just a few days ago and after a 3 mile hike to get there, we happily shared the honors. I couldn't agree more. Sure if the owner states in the description no co-FTF's then fine. With anything else it should be up to the first finders if they happen to meet up at the same time. I had that happen to me a few months back when I and a fellow cacher pulled up at the same time. We introduced ourselves, shook hands and agreed to co-FTF. It was a great experience to put a name with a face and actually spend a few minutes talking together. Why spoil a moment like that bickering over who should get the actual FTF? -HHH Quote Link to comment
+sbell111 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 ... Let me give you an example of how 'eat up' they are. One of them, I heard telling a tale at an event. He's all set up to watch a football playoff game on tv, right? ..... one he's been anticipating for weeks. His team's in it....yay!!! Beer's chilled....popcorn's popped....and it's game time! His cell-phone alert goes off.....a new cache has been published. He figured he had a shot at the FTF, so shot out the door & tore off down the road. He was (in HIS words) 'driving like a maniac' trying to beat out his #1 competitor, whom he knew would have received the same alert....and gets pulled by a cop!! Now what do you think his very first concern would've been? Speeding ticket? Points on his driver's license? Time lost from work being in court? 'There goes my insurance rates!'?!?!? Nope....again his words - "When the blue lights came on (the cop car), I thought "Oh NO!!! CacheMonster is gonna beat me to the FTF!" !!!!! Now, is that sick or what??? I don't know if it's sick, or not, but it sounds like he's having fun.... On the particular cache I cited, the local dood I guess felt 'his territory' had been invaded. The "their words" was actually the father-son team's....and he felt like he, being outnumbered, really had no call in the matter....if one of them found it, he could share the claim, and if he found it, they were gonna "grab" their part anyway.....that they had the 'unfair advantage' of the out-vote in the decision. ...It sounds like this guy doesn't 'get it'. I don't see how his angstiness is going to affect the other guy or you, however.... But .... just one of 'em doesn't like something that happened - & it's my fault? Please!!! Sometimes ya just can't win for losing. I guess that I'm not seeing the problem. Who is blaming you and what are they blaming you for? Quote Link to comment
Motorcycle_Mama Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I'd say to stay out of their little argument. Then it can't be your fault. Let them argue over who was the FTF. Don't acknowledge either one. It doesn't matter to your cache so let them have the angst. Quote Link to comment
+Moose Mob Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 At least this isn't as bad as the person that wanted to require the second finder to be awarded the FTF. That also didn't make sense to anyone except the OP. And the person who wanted an FTF to go to the first finder each day. Quote Link to comment
AZcachemeister Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Mucho t'anx for all your responses. But welllllllllllll........I kinda set you guys up. It is yes very much a competition....especially between these individuals. Their profiles contain a list of their FTF's....and a quite extensive list it is. They brag about it. They rib each other. They purely gloat over it! *LOL* And yes, I know it's between themselves, but the 'bragging rights' does play a big part in it. To them, anyway. Let me give you an example of how 'eat up' they are....<snip for brevity> I see your point, but how do these clowns expect you to referee THEIR battle? Are you supposed to hang out in the bushes dressed in a black & white striped shirt with a whistle around your neck? If anything, I would include a disclaimer that co-FTF shall be decided by the parties involved, by whatever means they agree on. When it gets out of control. I was FTF!. Perhaps your next hide should be something like this ? Quote Link to comment
+KBI Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 So let me see if I understand: If I am with someone else when we locate your container, and it hasn’t been found before us, then you’re saying that afterward we are not allowed to remember our experience as cooperative? Not only must we co-finders decide between us who was first, but you will also require us to remember and talk about the experience that way, even if that contrived memory is different from what actually happened? There are too many people who want to control how other people behave when they cache. Now we have people trying to control how other people think about their caching, or how they remember their caching. It seems kinda silly to try to officially tweak the strictness or complexity of a general rule that has never actually existed officially in the first place. There is no First Finder rule. The concept of First Finder is not addressed anywhere in the rules, guidelines, Terms of Service or anywhere else that I can find. The FTF designation is merely an informal thing that only a relatively small subset of cachers even cares about. This attempt to control the thoughts and memories of others is unlikely to be an effective way to increase people’s enjoyment of your cache. If I read an ALR like that on a cache I would likely pass on it, FTF or not. As others have said: how are you going to enforce it? It would be a bit like telling your finders which ones are allowed to think about the hint, or which ones are allowed to write about their find in their personal diary. Maybe the best place for you to start would be to try to figure out why you would be compelled to say something like this: I won't argue the aesthetics....simply saying, as it is 'First' and not 'Firsts', for some reason the practice bothers me, and I've a feeling it shouldn't be allowed -- that only the first physical finder should be allowed the FTF claim. Quote Link to comment
+TheAlabamaRambler Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I've done it several ways, as a "co-FTF" on a couple of occasions, more often I let whoever was with me claim it since I don't keep track of them, but sometimes a bit of friendly competition comes in to play. I had that come up last week... a series of 15 new caches came out one morning, my schedule was open so I decided to get some FTFs. Here is an excerpt from that day: I got the emails at 9:28... 15 of them, but didn't check my email until after 10 o'clock. I haven't chased an FTF in years, but this is too good to pass up! Order a PQ, load the query into my GPS and into Cachemate on the BlackJack II and I'm on the road by 10:30. It's a weekday morning after work hours have already started... surely I won't get 15 FTFs... but maybe! Got to #101 just before 11 - OBH and Villagers3 have already found it! Looks like the Cache Ninja has a Ninja-ette hot on his heels! Dang - This calls for a change of strategy! Head for #115... FTF! Yes! #114 FTF! Woohoo! #113 FTF! There is a God! #112 FTF! Signing the log an up comes We5Fish. From then on it's a race, but neither of us wants to ACT like it's a race, so we just sorta casually saunter to the next few caches... trying to casually saunter one step ahead of the other, ya know. So, while he's signing the log I saunter on down the road! #111 I get to ground zero first, but We5Fish nabs the FTF. I better step up my casual sauntering technique, this guy is quick! #110 is a replay... score 2 for We5Fish. Huh. Drive faster than he's willing to. The hell with casual. #109 Arrive at ground zero together. Guess he was willing to drive faster than I thought. He comes up with the FTF by literal seconds. That's my story and I am sticking to it! #108 Okay, he got the darn FTF, and this is gettin' embarrassin'! But I am glad he did, turns out this is #400 for him! Woohoo! Took a picture for his milestone. #107 Get there together, but he's on the phone! Oh yeah, I have it! Ooops... Villagers3 and OBH have been here. Not bad! We5Fish and I both got 4 FTFs and met the Cache Ninja in the middle! #106 Got a 30-second lead on We5Fish, grab it... but the Cache Ninja and Villager3 have beaten us both. There won't be any more FTFs. #105 Stopped at Play Ball! on the way to this one as I saw Betaman there looking. I had already found it so I left We5Fish there to find it with him and moved on. Was signing the log for this one when a Deputy rolled up. Can't have a Rambler Cache Run without cops! He wants to know why an old one-legged fat man is caressing his sign post. Not in those words, but the 'Jeez there's a lotta nuts out here' came through. I start to explain the game and his eyes glaze over... "Have fun" he says and off he goes. We had a ball, two strangers playing with each other, it really didn't matter to either of us who found it first but trying did make for a good time. To the point of the question; what if We5Fish hadn't been such a nice guy and we had both taken FTF seriously? There were times, for example, when we stood side-by-side at the cache site... once we spotted the hide, both stepped up to it and were looking into a hollow stump - the first to reach into it would get FTF. We could easily have called that a Co-FTF, or we could have argued over it, I could have wrestled him for it (I had him by 100 pounds!) or I could let him reach inside and grab the cache (which I did) and he had the FTF. In any of those cases, FTF would be between he and I to decide, it would have nothing to do with the cache owner. Quote Link to comment
+TotemLake Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Mucho t'anx for all your responses. But welllllllllllll........I kinda set you guys up. It is yes very much a competition....especially between these individuals. Their profiles contain a list of their FTF's....and a quite extensive list it is. They brag about it. They rib each other. They purely gloat over it! *LOL* And yes, I know it's between themselves, but the 'bragging rights' does play a big part in it. To them, anyway. Let me give you an example of how 'eat up' they are. One of them, I heard telling a tale at an event. He's all set up to watch a football playoff game on tv, right? ..... one he's been anticipating for weeks. His team's in it....yay!!! Beer's chilled....popcorn's popped....and it's game time! His cell-phone alert goes off.....a new cache has been published. He figured he had a shot at the FTF, so shot out the door & tore off down the road. He was (in HIS words) 'driving like a maniac' trying to beat out his #1 competitor, whom he knew would have received the same alert....and gets pulled by a cop!! Now what do you think his very first concern would've been? Speeding ticket? Points on his driver's license? Time lost from work being in court? 'There goes my insurance rates!'?!?!? Nope....again his words - "When the blue lights came on (the cop car), I thought "Oh NO!!! CacheMonster is gonna beat me to the FTF!" !!!!! Now, is that sick or what??? So please......DON'T say it's not a competition! <<< (& note that 'winky' before you tear into me on that one!!) On the particular cache I cited, the local dood I guess felt 'his territory' had been invaded. The "their words" was actually the father-son team's....and he felt like he, being outnumbered, really had no call in the matter....if one of them found it, he could share the claim, and if he found it, they were gonna "grab" their part anyway.....that they had the 'unfair advantage' of the out-vote in the decision. And ya see......somehow in all their angst & rivalry, I somehow magically became the bad guy! Because I allowed it! Me - merely the one who'd scouted out the cache site.....planned the hide.....spent the money for the container....money on the gas for the 3 or 4 trips to the site to set up & execute it.....not to mention the thought, the time & the effort. Me, who did the whole dang thing in furtherance of the freakin' hobby. Me, who was snug abed & sound asleep while my nefarious plot came to fruition.....my plot to rob one of these erstwhile "players" of his bragging rights by my thoughtless inattention to details!! I'm not gonna place any such strictures on my hides. It's already plenty enough work settin' 'em up as it is. And what do I care if 65 people show up in 8 'VRPs' (Viking Raiding Parties) & each claims HE was THE "first" to find it......that's their hell to endure! But .... just one of 'em doesn't like something that happened - & it's my fault? Please!!! Sometimes ya just can't win for losing. *** My reply to the griper would have been s/he should have gotten there just a bit earlier then. Sometimes you win, sometimes, you lose, and sometimes it's a compromise. Above all, it should remain fun. If they're not having fun at it, they're doing it wrong. Quote Link to comment
+ProjectFred325 Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I have had several FTFs. Shared and solo. I don't considerthen any different. I log them accordinly only to share the "pride" with all that have earned it. I can think of three or four caches that a team was needed to find or retrieve. Since there is no prize other than personal ego and glory for a FTF is see no issue. Current policy (unwritten) round these parts, all present at the time that the cache is found, log when the cache is found. FTF or not. Your not going to rehide it for the next person to find and rehid til the entire group finishes, especially if caching multiple caches together. Group caching + group find + group glory + team work + sportmanship eh check that sportspersonship. just must my .02 (if its woth that much) Quote Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Mucho t'anx for all your responses. But welllllllllllll........I kinda set you guys up. It is yes very much a competition....especially between these individuals. Their profiles contain a list of their FTF's....and a quite extensive list it is. They brag about it. They rib each other. They purely gloat over it! *LOL* And yes, I know it's between themselves, but the 'bragging rights' does play a big part in it. To them, anyway. Let me give you an example of how 'eat up' they are. One of them, I heard telling a tale at an event. He's all set up to watch a football playoff game on tv, right? ..... one he's been anticipating for weeks. His team's in it....yay!!! Beer's chilled....popcorn's popped....and it's game time! His cell-phone alert goes off.....a new cache has been published. He figured he had a shot at the FTF, so shot out the door & tore off down the road. He was (in HIS words) 'driving like a maniac' trying to beat out his #1 competitor, whom he knew would have received the same alert....and gets pulled by a cop!! Now what do you think his very first concern would've been? Speeding ticket? Points on his driver's license? Time lost from work being in court? 'There goes my insurance rates!'?!?!? Nope....again his words - "When the blue lights came on (the cop car), I thought "Oh NO!!! CacheMonster is gonna beat me to the FTF!" !!!!! Now, is that sick or what??? So please......DON'T say it's not a competition! <<< (& note that 'winky' before you tear into me on that one!!) Well, I won't tear into you. But I think KBI said it best: There is no First Finder rule. The concept of First Finder is not addressed anywhere in the rules, guidelines, Terms of Service or anywhere else that I can find. The FTF designation is merely an informal thing that only a relatively small subset of cachers even cares about. I think the whole thing about there being one and only one FTF is a total non-issue. I guess this is what happens when a very small aspect of a non-competitive activity becomes competitive. And I should always state my disclaimer that I dabbled in this FTF stuff a little (not too crazy), before it totally turned me off. Took a couple of years. Quote Link to comment
+Cedar Grove Seekers Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Star*Hopper: Do you ever go caching with a fellow cacher and they are the ones who actually spot the cache first? If so, do you also log a 'Found It'? Most people who do cache with fellow cachers will all log the find despite who actually spots the cache first. I don't see why claiming a co-FTF would be any different. Quote Link to comment
+Miragee Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 At least this isn't as bad as the person that wanted to require the second finder to be awarded the FTF. That also didn't make sense to anyone except the OP. And the person who wanted an FTF to go to the first finder each day. But, but, but . . . how could you have forgetten to list the person who wanted to be FTF because they provided the pen to the person who was the actual FTF? Quote Link to comment
+WebChimp Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 ....simply saying, as it is 'First' and not 'Firsts', for some reason the practice bothers me, and I've a feeling it shouldn't be allowed -- that only the first physical finder should be allowed the FTF claim. So............... For a practical application of your "no co-FTF" policy, when two cachers find it together, sign it as a team, log it under two accounts as FTF (since they were both there and did equal amounts of effort and are in agreement that they were co-FTF), you are going to have to decide who is or isn't FTF. And, you'll have to either note it on the listing, or delete their logs if both claim it. Your new caches will probably see in inordinate number of people claiming FTF, just to see what you do about the logs. This should be interesting. After all, there's only one FTF 'prize' inside, and they didn't (couldn't!) share that! Sure they could share it. King Solomon came up with that solution a few thousand years ago! Quote Link to comment
+NYPaddleCacher Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 Mucho t'anx for all your responses. But welllllllllllll........I kinda set you guys up. It is yes very much a competition....especially between these individuals. Their profiles contain a list of their FTF's....and a quite extensive list it is. They brag about it. They rib each other. They purely gloat over it! *LOL* And yes, I know it's between themselves, but the 'bragging rights' does play a big part in it. To them, anyway. I think that it's worth noting that while there are obviously quite a few geocachers caught up in this FTF nonsense there are a lot of others that really don't care one way or another who finds a cache first. Perhaps it's a regional thing but, at least where I live, there really isn't a competition to get FTF on a cache, let alone gloat over it or brag about it. Somebody has to be the first to find on a cache and it seems that for the most part it's a matter of opportunity rather than a race to the cache as soon as it's published. I think I've got something like 15 FTFs and it's usually because I just happened to have the opportunity to head out shortly after a cache was published and managed to get their before someone else had the opportunity. More often than not, however, a new cache might be published while I am at work so the earliest opportunity to search for it might be several hours or even days before I can search for it. Perhaps if there were one or two people that did brag and gloat about getting FTF on caches around here there may be more of a competition but, personally I'm glad that the game hasn't turned into a competition. For the most part we've got a pretty friendly and social geocaching community here and just as soon see it stay that way. I've seen way too many threads in these forums where FTF has become a local issue and I hope in never becomes one here. Quote Link to comment
Skippermark Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 If several people are looking, here in CT, it's common practice that everyone claim the first to find because everyone is involved in the search. It's only a game, and half the fun of FTFs (I don't really go for many) is the "mini events" that happens at them where everyone looks for it and enjoys the company of other cachers. Quote Link to comment
+Driver Carries Cache Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I think if it was my cache, I'd spend more time being excited that a whole bunch of people wanted to (and ultimately did) find my cache! DCC Quote Link to comment
+wimseyguy Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I've observed that the cachers who are having the most FUN are the ones who are least concerned with what others think, and how others are playing. At least that's how I play (and by keeping my find count higher than my post count ) Quote Link to comment
+wimseyguy Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 (edited) I've observed that the cachers who are having the most FUN are the ones who never get any double posts in here. Edited July 21, 2008 by wimseyguy Quote Link to comment
+wesleykey Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 But mainly - is it too outlandish or 'unfair' of me to place that stricture on my new caches? Thanx! ~S*H You need to take a couple days off, do some caching, and then try again. Quote Link to comment
Skippermark Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 It's a game! Up here in our neck of the woods we have too many that take the game and themselves much, much too seriously. Please don't be guilty of that. The World will not come to an end if there are multi-FTFs. Thanks. I actually hid a cache that allows multiple FTFs called FTF!. Every person that finds it can say they are the FTF, no matter how many people have found it before them. I have a friend who has a cache where the first 5 finders names were entered into drawing, and he drew one of their names and let them claim the FTF. Again, it was something done in fun and to keep things interesting. Quote Link to comment
+Packanack Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I had one recently where the cachers actually called each other on the phone and said I will meet you over at the spot, so we can all be FTF. and that is what they did. Of course they argued cause that one guy ate all of the nearby ripe rasberries leaving none for the others. But it was a start. Quote Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted July 21, 2008 Share Posted July 21, 2008 I had one recently where the cachers actually called each other on the phone and said I will meet you over at the spot, so we can all be FTF. and that is what they did. Of course they argued cause that one guy ate all of the nearby ripe rasberries leaving none for the others. But it was a start. Ah! But the raspberries were spectacular this weekend!!!! Gorged myself! Only one person can be FTF. Sort of the definition of "First". When I'm on an FTF hunt with friends and relatives, FTF logs first and claims "FTF". The rest of log Co-FTF with... But we all know who found it first. One of my fondest memories of a local cacher: He came upon us searching in the ice and snow, and held back, so my caching partner could get his first FTF. Miss ya, Helmut! Another time, I took an afternoon off to go for an FTF opportunity. (Solved the puzzle before breakfast.) Beat another FTF hound by fifteen minutes. (He had to drive 30 miles.) His log? "Dang. I should have gone out in the middle of the night to grab this one." Shows what a difference attitude makes! My definition: FTF is the first to find (or is that redundant?) Only one per cache. If hunting in a group, the others are 'co-FTF'. But only one actual FTF. Quote Link to comment
+JacobBarlow Posted July 22, 2008 Share Posted July 22, 2008 Since it's not an "official" designation, just kind of bragging rights, I'm not sure it really matters. I agree. There are several caches I have on my "First to find" list that other people have on theirs as well, and we were not there at the same time, they didn't see my name and I think I was first, I didn't see theirs and they claim to be first, so I just told them to go ahead and count it and I did the same, it really doesn't matter, if the OP put on his page that Bob was the FTF when I found it with him and put on his page that I couldn't count it because he doesn't let people share FTF's I'd still count it, because I can and I want to. hehe Quote Link to comment
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