Inappropriate Hide

[+CosmicMiami]

When searching yesterday, I was confronted by two men in a pickup truck that seemed intent on intimidating me and having me leave an area. I discovered later the cache is on the property of a rock quarry. I contacted the cache owner. Her reply was that she has never been confronted while at the cache so she's leaving it in place. There aren't any No Trespassing signs but there is a large steel gate and piles of rock around the gate. It's easy to walk around the gate.

 

My dilemma is I don't want to be a pain in the rear. But I do think it's irresponsible to send people out looking for something when they might be confronted by these two thugs.

[+gmcpower98]

I would post a note in the logs about your experience.

Then other cachers can decide weather they want to seek the cache.

[+ChrisPlay]

You never know who or what you might run into so be aware of your surroundings.

Some of my caches take you to strange places, but public.

[+lordzogat]

If they were carrying or playing banjo's I'd be afraid and run.

 

If its public land, they may not see it that way and are just being a pain in the backside or doing it for sport. You could always try it another day.

Edited July 19, 2008 by lordzogat

[+Harry Dolphin]

When searching yesterday, I was confronted by two men in a pickup truck that seemed intent on intimidating me and having me leave an area. I discovered later the cache is on the property of a rock quarry. I contacted the cache owner. Her reply was that she has never been confronted while at the cache so she's leaving it in place. There aren't any No Trespassing signs but there is a large steel gate and piles of rock around the gate. It's easy to walk around the gate.

 

My dilemma is I don't want to be a pain in the rear. But I do think it's irresponsible to send people out looking for something when they might be confronted by these two thugs.

 

There are rock quarries in Florida!?! There are rocks in Florida?!?

 

There are all sorts of buzzwords in your post that concern me. "'Confronted' 'Intimidating' 'Thugs'

Some part of this story is missing, or you have a very large grudge on your shoulder. And that makes it very hard to give an impartial answer to your pointed question.

I've been to lots of trailheads with large steel gates and rocks. (They're usually there to prevent the 'thugs in the pickup trucks from driving in.' On the other hand, I have, inadvertantly, strayed into an area where a gentleman in a pickup warned me that I was trespassig. That was, of course, my error.

 

Until we hear the true, and complete story, I'd say that 'pain in the rear' seems to be a good description.

Were the 'thugs' employees of the 'rock quarry'? Or were they guarding their cash crop?

If you know, for a certainty, that the cache is on private property, with employees who intimidate warn cachers that they should not be there, then you have a valid point, and might consider sending a note to the reviewer. Outside of the obvious grudge on your shoulder, most of this sage seems to be buried behind your grudge.

[+CosmicMiami]

When searching yesterday, I was confronted by two men in a pickup truck that seemed intent on intimidating me and having me leave an area. I discovered later the cache is on the property of a rock quarry. I contacted the cache owner. Her reply was that she has never been confronted while at the cache so she's leaving it in place. There aren't any No Trespassing signs but there is a large steel gate and piles of rock around the gate. It's easy to walk around the gate.

 

My dilemma is I don't want to be a pain in the rear. But I do think it's irresponsible to send people out looking for something when they might be confronted by these two thugs.

 

[snip]

 

There are all sorts of buzzwords in your post that concern me. "'Confronted' 'Intimidating' 'Thugs'

Some part of this story is missing, or you have a very large grudge on your shoulder. And that makes it very hard to give an impartial answer to your pointed question.

I've been to lots of trailheads with large steel gates and rocks. (They're usually there to prevent the 'thugs in the pickup trucks from driving in.' On the other hand, I have, inadvertantly, strayed into an area where a gentleman in a pickup warned me that I was trespassig. That was, of course, my error.

 

Until we hear the true, and complete story, I'd say that 'pain in the rear' seems to be a good description.

Were the 'thugs' employees of the 'rock quarry'? Or were they guarding their cash crop?

If you know, for a certainty, that the cache is on private property, with employees who intimidate warn cachers that they should not be there, then you have a valid point, and might consider sending a note to the reviewer. Outside of the obvious grudge on your shoulder, most of this sage seems to be buried behind your grudge.

 

These were employees of the rock quarry, the property on which the cache is placed. Within two minutes of me being there, they sped up in a company pickup truck, stopped right in front of me and asked if they "could help me." I said no. I told them I was looking for some trails that a friend told me were in the area. I was cordial to the driver who did all the talking. The passenger was talking on his cellphone and I heard him giving the person on the other end a description of me. I'm assuming it was their security person or maybe a supervisor. The driver told me that I couldn't be there. I told him I didn't see any no trespassing signs and he told me that didn't matter and that I needed to leave. Besides being vague in explaining why I was on the property, I was very cooperative. In my opinion, the guys in the truck were being intimidating with their words and their attitudes. That's the vibe I was getting.

 

Strange. I'm worried about the safety of my fellow cachers. I come to this forum for guidance from people with more experience with these matters. Then I'm told I have a "grudge on my shoulder".

[+Isonzo Karst]

Mining rock phosphate is major industry in Florida. Cochina is also mined.

 

If you're reasonably confident that the cache is within the private property of a rock mine, and it sure sounds that way, you could log a Needs Archived, or if you'd rather not "make waves" publicly, just email the reviewer who published the cache.

[+TotemLake]

When searching yesterday, I was confronted by two men in a pickup truck that seemed intent on intimidating me and having me leave an area. I discovered later the cache is on the property of a rock quarry. I contacted the cache owner. Her reply was that she has never been confronted while at the cache so she's leaving it in place. There aren't any No Trespassing signs but there is a large steel gate and piles of rock around the gate. It's easy to walk around the gate.

 

My dilemma is I don't want to be a pain in the rear. But I do think it's irresponsible to send people out looking for something when they might be confronted by these two thugs.

 

[snip]

 

There are all sorts of buzzwords in your post that concern me. "'Confronted' 'Intimidating' 'Thugs'

Some part of this story is missing, or you have a very large grudge on your shoulder. And that makes it very hard to give an impartial answer to your pointed question.

I've been to lots of trailheads with large steel gates and rocks. (They're usually there to prevent the 'thugs in the pickup trucks from driving in.' On the other hand, I have, inadvertantly, strayed into an area where a gentleman in a pickup warned me that I was trespassig. That was, of course, my error.

 

Until we hear the true, and complete story, I'd say that 'pain in the rear' seems to be a good description.

Were the 'thugs' employees of the 'rock quarry'? Or were they guarding their cash crop?

If you know, for a certainty, that the cache is on private property, with employees who intimidate warn cachers that they should not be there, then you have a valid point, and might consider sending a note to the reviewer. Outside of the obvious grudge on your shoulder, most of this sage seems to be buried behind your grudge.

 

These were employees of the rock quarry, the property on which the cache is placed. Within two minutes of me being there, they sped up in a company pickup truck, stopped right in front of me and asked if they "could help me." I said no. I told them I was looking for some trails that a friend told me were in the area. I was cordial to the driver who did all the talking. The passenger was talking on his cellphone and I heard him giving the person on the other end a description of me. I'm assuming it was their security person or maybe a supervisor. The driver told me that I couldn't be there. I told him I didn't see any no trespassing signs and he told me that didn't matter and that I needed to leave. Besides being vague in explaining why I was on the property, I was very cooperative. In my opinion, the guys in the truck were being intimidating with their words and their attitudes. That's the vibe I was getting.

 

Strange. I'm worried about the safety of my fellow cachers. I come to this forum for guidance from people with more experience with these matters. Then I'm told I have a "grudge on my shoulder".

Your description now is more different than when you first described the situation, so I think you were correctly called on the word usage.

 

As for being intimidating, there's nothing safe about approaching tresspassers in what can be a dangerous area (active rock quarries come to mind). THEY have no idea whom they are approaching nor what you might be carrying, much less KNOW your intent there in the first place. The first and correct stance is to take ownership of the situation and make sure you understand they mean business that you have no business there. Thugs? Hardly. Their tone probably conveyed you shouldn't break into a debate. Your injury in that quarry is a lawsuit they have to worry about. The quicker they can get you off the property, the less they have to worry. Just because you don't see no tresspassing signs doesn't make it not privately owned property. The gate is the first clue, and signage though helpful to outsiders, is not required.

 

Now back on topic, there is an issue the cache may be on private property. It'll take more than one person to identify that problem. Your best bet is to post a note or DNF explaining the situation while avoiding certain word usage that could be considered inflammatory.

 

Here's an example of an encounter with thugs.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Ah! What a difference! They were the nice gentlemen employed by the quarry, who informed you that you were trespassing? Then, they weren't thugs?

We hear so many one-sided stories here, filled with buzzwords, that we wait to hear the other side of the story. Yes, I could see the grudge on your shoulder from a mile away!

Try a less confrontational approach...

"Two gentlemen approached me, yesterday, when I was searching for a cache, and advised me that I was trespassing on private property."

If you know, for a certainty, that the cache is on private property, with employees who warn cachers that they should not be there, then you have a valid point, and might consider sending a note to the reviewer.

See. I even gave you appropriate advice!

I still want to know more about rock quarries in Florida!

[AZcachemeister]

But I do think it's irresponsible to send people out looking for something when they might be confronted by these two thugs.

 

Perhaps you approached the cache from the 'wrong' direction?

It's possible the cache is on public property on the OTHER SIDE of the quarry, in which case the owner needs to add parking co-ordinates or some other approach information to the cache page.

[puddin' trucker]

Good gravy, why would anyone put a cache anywhere near an active rock quarry? No one except authorized employees should be on the property. Too much heavy equipment running around and the occasional blasting should keep anyone with a lick of common sense away.

[+CosmicMiami]

This part of the quarry is not active. I entered from the place suggested by the owner.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

These were employees of the rock quarry, the property on which the cache is placed. Within two minutes of me being there, they sped up in a company pickup truck, stopped right in front of me and asked if they "could help me." I said no. I told them I was looking for some trails that a friend told me were in the area. I was cordial to the driver who did all the talking. The passenger was talking on his cellphone and I heard him giving the person on the other end a description of me. I'm assuming it was their security person or maybe a supervisor. The driver told me that I couldn't be there. I told him I didn't see any no trespassing signs and he told me that didn't matter and that I needed to leave. Besides being vague in explaining why I was on the property, I was very cooperative. In my opinion, the guys in the truck were being intimidating with their words and their attitudes. That's the vibe I was getting.

 

Strange. I'm worried about the safety of my fellow cachers. I come to this forum for guidance from people with more experience with these matters. Then I'm told I have a "grudge on my shoulder".

So two employees doing their job approach, ask if they can help you, you lie to them, then argue your right to be there... but they are thugs because they made you leave? How does that work?

[+BlueDeuce]

Contact the local reviewer for direction.

[+WRASTRO]

I have no issue with the guys in the truck being a bit intimidating considering the location. If this happened to me I would explain what I was doing and if they told me I needed to lgo away I would say "oops, thanks for the heads up, I'll be leaving now".

 

This sounds like a permissions issue for the cache owner to sort out. Since the cache owner doesn't seem to think it is a problem you should contact your local reviewer.

[+SSO JOAT]

Hate to hijack a thread, but this one is a prime example of poor reply etiquette. I might be extremely new to this particular forum, but I've got many thousands of posts amongst my other hobbies and outdoor activities on other forums. My first impressions of this particular board, "Geocaching Topics", is that there are a lot of really rude posters in here with a serious chip on their shoulders. I certainly do not see the same poor attitude on the "Getting Started" board, which is the only other one that I've lurked through since signing up as a geocacher.

 

This guy asks a perfectly valid question of what he should do about a cache that might be on private property. Then he receives an immediate, off topic, personal attack... then another... and another until he is practically accused of lying to and arguing with a couple sweet little old ladies on a Sunday stroll. What's wrong with simply answering the question instead of making it personal? (By the way, the answer is clearly spelled out on Geocaching.com, just open the cache placement guide and read it).

 

Do you all realize that when folks have to make "spelling correction" posts (not here, but many other threads) or start unfounded arguments or resort to name-calling and personal attacks, that this reflects poorly on the sport and drives away new cachers? Those regulars on here may be the very first people in Geocaching that a new cacher comes into contact with. If they are given a poor first impression, what are the chances that they will stick around? I know I've pretty much seen enough to do without this forum.

 

A successful forum has moderators who actively enforce posting rules and edit or delete posts that detract from the topic or contain personal attacks. Are there any such people around here?

 

I half expect this post will be flamed. Go right ahead, I wear Nomex & Kevlar; but deep down inside, you know I'm right.

 

CosmicMiami, I'm sorry for the hijack, but the hostility I've read through over the last few days on this board is just ridiculous and these folks need to be called on it. Just write a note on the cache log stating that you were approaching the cache area and were told that it is on private property. Leave it at that and move on to another cache. There are plenty of them out there. Good luck with your future hunts.

Edited July 19, 2008 by SSO JOAT

[+Michael]

A successful forum has moderators who actively enforce posting rules and edit or delete posts that detract from the topic or contain personal attacks. Are there any such people around here?

 

Gee this successful forum has moderators who do not edit or delete posts that detract from the topic as a general rule. If we did your post would be gone as its off topic and you knew you were hijacking the thread instead of starting a new one like you should have. Yes some of the replies are less than nice but nothing that needs heavy handed moderation. Your post is exactly the same thing. In your attempt to chastise posters you became what you hate about them. Your post is no better than the ones you are complaining about.

 

Groundspeak takes a light hand in a lot of things. If you are looking for hard, fast rules with little flex you are not going to find that here.

 

Everyone else, lighten up. The OP stated the story the way he felt about it. He was there you guys were not. Right or wrong its the way he felt and he is entitled to feel that way. Give the guy a break.

[+ChileHead]

Thugs or not, if you were told to leave, then you can do a favor to the other cachers in your area and post a should be archived or contact the reviewer. There is nothing wrong with that. If I hid a cache in an area that I thought was public and I found out later it wasn't, I would appreciate somebody telling me that so cachers looking for my cache don't get in trouble (and I won't get in trouble either.)

[+TeamAtlas]

Hate to hijack a thread, but this one is a prime example of poor reply etiquette. I might be extremely new to this particular forum, but I've got many thousands of posts amongst my other hobbies and outdoor activities on other forums. My first impressions of this particular board, "Geocaching Topics", is that there are a lot of really rude posters in here with a serious chip on their shoulders. I certainly do not see the same poor attitude on the "Getting Started" board, which is the only other one that I've lurked through since signing up as a geocacher.

 

This guy asks a perfectly valid question of what he should do about a cache that might be on private property. Then he receives an immediate, off topic, personal attack... then another... and another until he is practically accused of lying to and arguing with a couple sweet little old ladies on a Sunday stroll. What's wrong with simply answering the question instead of making it personal? (By the way, the answer is clearly spelled out on Geocaching.com, just open the cache placement guide and read it).

 

Do you all realize that when folks have to make "spelling correction" posts (not here, but many other threads) or start unfounded arguments or resort to name-calling and personal attacks, that this reflects poorly on the sport and drives away new cachers? Those regulars on here may be the very first people in Geocaching that a new cacher comes into contact with. If they are given a poor first impression, what are the chances that they will stick around? I know I've pretty much seen enough to do without this forum.

 

A successful forum has moderators who actively enforce posting rules and edit or delete posts that detract from the topic or contain personal attacks. Are there any such people around here?

 

I half expect this post will be flamed. Go right ahead, I wear Nomex & Kevlar; but deep down inside, you know I'm right.

 

CosmicMiami, I'm sorry for the hijack, but the hostility I've read through over the last few days on this board is just ridiculous and these folks need to be called on it. Just write a note on the cache log stating that you were approaching the cache area and were told that it is on private property. Leave it at that and move on to another cache. There are plenty of them out there. Good luck with your future hunts.

 

I agree with you 100% and that's the reason I don't post much on here. (Apparently you and I are in the minority in thinking these attacks aren't necessary... but I bet we're not, the others just don't speak up.) New people come in and ask simple questions and get jumped right away by the old-timers. I've seen a lot of that as of late as well... people asking for advice on puzzles (if you don't know, you don't know) and being told it's 'bad form' to ask for help, asking advice on how to handle bad situations with other cachers, and many other topics, such as this one. For some reason the posters, who have valid questions, get flamed for asking those questions, like they should have known better. How is one supposed to learn something or know 'proper form' etc unless they ask? This board is not filled with lots of friendly helpful fellow cachers like I had hoped it would be. Ok, go ahead and flame me. I'm not a veteran cacher and I haven't been on here long so I must not know anything, right? I just don't understand why politeness goes out the door on public forums.

 

To the OP, you can check your local tax assessor website and see who in fact owns the property where the cache is located, it's public record. If the cache owner doesn't seem to care if others are in jeopardy, maybe your best bet is to send a note to the reviewer. (For what it's worth, from what you described, those quarry guys did behave inappropriately. Hmm, sounds familiar... you were there innocently, not meaning harm, and got rudely run off... kinda like posting on the forums, eh?) Good luck.

[+Tequila]

If you look at the situation from the quarry employee's perspective, they don't know who you are or why you are there? And even if you give a "looking for trails...." explanation, they can't be sure that is true. You could be scouting the area for a grow up (I am not sure how forested a rock quarry or FLA might be) or some other illegal activity. So they are only doing their job. And "taking control of a situation" is probably one of the basics if you are in police/security.

 

I would have shown them your GPS, explained geocaching to them and ask if they mind if you look for the cache. Even offer to inform the cache owner of the incident. If they say you can't look for the cache, politely leave. I have never seen a cache yet that was worth risking a more serious confrontation.

 

I had this same situation occur at a Ford Mortor Complex. Originally the cache was placed just off a road leading into a large tract of land, owned by Ford. Subsequently, Ford security had installed a gate. Ford Security happened to be at the gate when I drove up. I explained what I was doing and they said go ahead but please inform the owner to move it outside the gate. Everyone was happy.

 

While caching I have found a grow up, a significant stash of marijuana and a hand grenade. So, the potential to meet "interesting" people out there exists. And a GPS is not very good for self defence. Be polite and leave if asked.

 

And as advised above, notify the local reviewer and let them deal with it.

[puddin' trucker]

"Quarry guys" have every right to order you off the property immediately. You have no idea of the dangers around a work area like that. Even if the area the cache is placed in is inactive today, that doesn't mean it will be tomorrow or next week or whenever. They could start stripping overburden for a new hole or start piling dirt there from another hole. It would be a shame to have a good cache buried, especially if there are trackables in it. I don't know the particulars of this case, but don't be calling the employees rude. It's their job, and it might very well save somebody's life.

[+CosmicMiami]

So two employees doing their job approach, ask if they can help you, you lie to them, then argue your right to be there... but they are thugs because they made you leave? How does that work?

 

If that's really the way it was, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. Any reasonable person would have felt the guys in the truck were being very confrontational and intimidating. My issue was that I truly thought that at any moment, these guys would get out of the truck and give me a little "rock breaker justice." Hence the "thug" reference. Besides making something up about why I was there (which was benign), I was cooperative. I did not argue with them. Where do you get that?

 

I contacted the owner and her reply was "I've never seen anybody out there so I'm going to leave it active." I thought that was irresponsible and illogical. I've never been in a motorcycle wreck but I still wear a helmet, just in case.

 

I am concerned for the safety of fellow cachers in the area. I express that concern and ask for guidance from more experienced GCers. Then I get jumped and find myself having to defend my actions. Wow. Sure is a strange way to welcome somebody to your community.

[+CosmicMiami]

And I am fully aware of the hazards around a quarry. This particular area was a good mile or two away from any active work being done. No hazards. I'm also aware of the "taking control of the situation" theory. I'm a public safety employee and have that training. Again, that's not what these guys did. That's why I am concerned. If this was a simple "hey what's up" it would be different. It wasn't.

[+Tequila]

I think the "being jumped" has been dealt with here. And you have several good recommendations as to what to do.

 

The best being advise the cache reviewer and let them deal with it.

 

if they/the owner chose to do nothing, you have done your part. And I assume you won't be returning to that cache. So it should not present a danger to you.

 

That should cover it.

[+SSO JOAT]

... your post would be gone as its off topic and you knew you were hijacking...

...Your post is exactly the same thing. In your attempt to chastise posters you became what you hate about them. Your post is no better than the ones you are complaining about.

 

Nice, skip right over the topic and attack the poster. Nice duck-n-dodge routine. Another prime example of what I'm talking about.

 

FYI, "Chastise" means to "punish". If you really think my post was intended to "punish" those who were trying to defame the original poster, then we've reached a communication impasse. My post was actually one of enlightenment, not ridicule.

[+Kit Fox]

If they were carrying or playing banjo's I'd be afraid and run.

 

If its public land, they may not see it that way and are just being a pain in the backside or doing it for sport. You could always try it another day.

 

Ignoring the stereotypical/ racist comment from the poster "up North," I would contact a reviewer, and advise them of your encounter. The cache owner clearly claims "blind ignorance" about your encounter with the quarry employees. If I encountered what you did, I would have contacted the owner of the cache first, to see if they have permission for the cache, if not, I would have posted a needs archived log.

[Neos2]

At the risk of further upsetting the the folks that are commenting on the way people react to forum posts, I do have a comment to add. You can believe me or not, as you choose, but I am saying this to be helpful, not critical.

 

Sometimes it's our own behavior that creates issues. I read through some of the logs the original poster left on other caches in the area. They include comments about having a clipboard and a "cover story" ready in case they are approached while at a cache.

 

I've never felt the need to resort to subterfuge while caching. I'm not doing anything wrong or bad. If someone asks me what I am doing, I tell them about geocaching. I even carry around laminated copies of a couple of different brochures and a trifold that explain it.

 

Several from CyBret

 

A Groundspeak brochure

 

True, if the cache has been placed without permission, there is the risk of it being archived--but that's going to happen sooner or later anway. You might as well use it as an opportunity to show geocaching in a positive light. Usually folks either think it's a great idea or slightly geeky but harmless and they decide to let the geocache remain. Sometimes they even join in on the hunt. I've even had a police officer help us find the cache after we explained what we were doing.

[+WebChimp]

Within two minutes of me being there, they sped up in a company pickup truck, stopped right in front of me and asked if they "could help me." I said no. I told them I was looking for some trails that a friend told me were in the area. I was cordial to the driver who did all the talking.

 

So, two employees of the private property stopped to offer help or determine why you were on private company property. You lied about why you were there, when you you should have said 'I'm looking for a geocache.".

 

Being cordial doesn't mean much when you're not telling the truth.

 

It sounds to me like you meant well when you went there, but handled the situation wrong. The employees probably sensed you weren't being straight, and wanted you out of there pronto, probably for safety and legal concerns. Things would probably have gone much differently had you just told them the truth.

 

Honesty isn't just the best policy, it shouold be the only policy.

[+TexasGringo]

This was a a cache a while back that I did...it was in a lot along a road. It was near an airport but had no signs about anything. It was just a big rockpile with a small shack nearby.

 

It turned out to be airport property...but how would you know until the the security came.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...=y&decrypt=

[+CosmicMiami]

I read through some of the logs the original poster left on other caches in the area. They include comments about having a clipboard and a "cover story" ready in case they are approached while at a cache.

 

Wow Neos2, why don't you just rewrite history while you're at it? You make it sound like I'm some kind of master of subterfuge. That was ONE cache log. Don't make it sound like it was many. And where did I mention in any of those logs about having a cover story ready? I had a rent-a-cop tell me I couldn't pull over into a little driveway in an industrial area. She couldn't understand nor could she speak English. I don't speak Spanish. My clipboard from work was sitting in the passenger seat so I had some fun with it. She didn't understand anything I was saying anyway. For all she knows, I was explaining to her about GCing! There was a transformer next to the property so I pointed to it and made some notes on the clipboard. LOL It's one of the things we gringos do here in Dade County to amuse ourselves.

 

With regards to the two guys in the pickup. None of you were there. They were the ones with the "grudge", not me. I fully intended on explaining to them what I was doing. But after I saw what kind of attitude they brought to the table, forget about it. I just wanted to get out of there. I couldn't walk behind the truck because they pulled in alongside a little ditch. I didn't want to walk in front of them. So I just stood there, pretending to talk on the phone, waiting for them to leave.

 

For all the pompous pontificators around here, none of you were there. So buzz off. My mother taught me to welcome newcomers. I guess most of you around here didn't have polite, well-mannered mothers to teach you proper manners.

 

When I have questions about GCing in the future, I'll just figure it out on my own.

Edited July 20, 2008 by CosmicMiami

[+Tequila]

Sounds like you need to find a different area to cache in.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

To the OP, the problem that you still aren't getting is that you were TRESPASSING on private property and the employees of that property approached you and asked you to leave. It obviously wasn't your intention to be trespassing, but nonetheless, you were in fact trespassing.

 

Then by characterizing them as "thugs", you set yourself up for criticism.

 

No, we were not there. We only have your descriptions and our own experiences to relate to the situation.

 

The employees were doing their job. Whether they were cordial or not is a moot point. At that point, they were not there to provide "customer service" to you, but rather to secure their property from an unauthorized person.

 

I think that you had the right idea in posting here to try to see what you should do about a cache that might be in an inappropriate location, however, the mischaracterization of these employees clouded the issue.

 

Had you simply stated that you went after a cache and someone employees on the site indicated that you shouldn't be there, but that the cache owner didn't think it was a problem, and you wanted to know what, if anything, to do next, then you would have likely gotten better responses.

[AZcachemeister]

To the OP, the problem that you still aren't getting is that you were TRESPASSING on private property and the employees of that property approached you and asked you to leave. It obviously wasn't your intention to be trespassing, but nonetheless, you were in fact trespassing.

 

Then by characterizing them as "thugs", you set yourself up for criticism.

 

No, we were not there. We only have your descriptions and our own experiences to relate to the situation.

 

The employees were doing their job. Whether they were cordial or not is a moot point. At that point, they were not there to provide "customer service" to you, but rather to secure their property from an unauthorized person.

 

I think that you had the right idea in posting here to try to see what you should do about a cache that might be in an inappropriate location, however, the mischaracterization of these employees clouded the issue.

 

Had you simply stated that you went after a cache and some employees on the site indicated that you shouldn't be there, but that the cache owner didn't think it was a problem, and you wanted to know what, if anything, to do next, then you would have likely gotten better responses.

 

I think MAMA has distilled this whole thread down pretty well.

 

I would add that perhaps the 'thugs' were NOT trained security personnel, but just employees told to keep trespassers off the property...their lack of professionalism certainly suggests so. Maybe THEY were worried that YOU might whip out a gun and plug THEM?

 

My FINAL ANSWER is that the reviewer(s) need to get involved.

[+WRASTRO]

I read through some of the logs the original poster left on other caches in the area. They include comments about having a clipboard and a "cover story" ready in case they are approached while at a cache.

 

Wow Neos2, why don't you just rewrite history while you're at it? You make it sound like I'm some kind of master of subterfuge. That was ONE cache log. Don't make it sound like it was many. And where did I mention in any of those logs about having a cover story ready? I had a rent-a-cop tell me I couldn't pull over into a little driveway in an industrial area. She couldn't understand nor could she speak English. I don't speak Spanish. My clipboard from work was sitting in the passenger seat so I had some fun with it. She didn't understand anything I was saying anyway. For all she knows, I was explaining to her about GCing! There was a transformer next to the property so I pointed to it and made some notes on the clipboard. LOL It's one of the things we gringos do here in Dade County to amuse ourselves.

 

With regards to the two guys in the pickup. None of you were there. They were the ones with the "grudge", not me. I fully intended on explaining to them what I was doing. But after I saw what kind of attitude they brought to the table, forget about it. I just wanted to get out of there. I couldn't walk behind the truck because they pulled in alongside a little ditch. I didn't want to walk in front of them. So I just stood there, pretending to talk on the phone, waiting for them to leave.

 

For all the pompous pontificators around here, none of you were there. So buzz off. My mother taught me to welcome newcomers. I guess most of you around here didn't have polite, well-mannered mothers to teach you proper manners.

 

When I have questions about GCing in the future, I'll just figure it out on my own.

You are more than welcome here in the forums and you can decide if you want to ask for advice. When you do you should try to give all of the facts and details so the folks you are asking for advice don't feel compelled to ask a bunch of additional questions before they can give you a reasonable answer.

 

Unfortunately your responses to other posters on this thread have followed a very familiar pattern. Those who don't blindly agree with you are "pompous pontificators" and don't understand the situation because they weren't there. Of course they weren't there and the only way they can understand the situation is by having you explain it. If you do a poor job of explaining it then you should expect a bunch of questions and doubts. When and if you provide additional information that doesn't support your initial claims you will get called on it.

 

It is all pretty simple. Ask a question and provide enough relevant information for others to give you thoughtful and reasoned responses based on their experiences. Answer additional questions without getting defensive. Move on.

 

You won't want to read this but the most likely cause of your problem with the cache and with your problem here in the forums is that you are very inexperienced at this game. You would be well advised to calm down and pay some attention to the questions and advice that have been offered up in this topic. Feel free to tell me all of the reasons why I am wrong and then bookmark this thread and come back and read it in a year or two if you are still geocaching.

[+DeRock & The Psychic Cacher]

CosmicMiami-

 

I'm sorry you had such a rough introduction to the GC.com forums. Unfortunately, may regulars here love to ride roughsod over anyone who happens to come along. And I must say they are very good at justifying their actions.

 

My advice, after reading all that you have done, is to notify the reviewer that approved the cache of your esperiences. That's about all you have left to do. You can find the reviewer by going to the very first log on the cache page. Then forget about it. You can't force any hider to do what you think is right.

 

Deane

AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI

[+Michael]

... your post would be gone as its off topic and you knew you were hijacking...

...Your post is exactly the same thing. In your attempt to chastise posters you became what you hate about them. Your post is no better than the ones you are complaining about.

 

Nice, skip right over the topic and attack the poster. Nice duck-n-dodge routine. Another prime example of what I'm talking about.

 

FYI, "Chastise" means to "punish". If you really think my post was intended to "punish" those who were trying to defame the original poster, then we've reached a communication impasse. My post was actually one of enlightenment, not ridicule.

chas·tise

-verb (used with object), -tised, -tis·ing.

1. to discipline, esp. by corporal punishment.

2. to criticize severely.

3. Archaic. to restrain; chasten.

4. Archaic. to refine; purify.

Intentionally taking a thread off topic can result in an official warning. It can also result in a timeout from the forums. Lets keep this thread on topic and all will be well.

Edited July 20, 2008 by Michael

[Neos2]

I read through some of the logs the original poster left on other caches in the area. They include comments about having a clipboard and a "cover story" ready in case they are approached while at a cache.

 

Wow Neos2, why don't you just rewrite history while you're at it? You make it sound like I'm some kind of master of subterfuge. That was ONE cache log. Don't make it sound like it was many.

These were the first three I read....I'm not chatising you. It's good that you try not to give away the hide to everyone near you. But at the same time, when you are really questioned by someone (especially guards, land owners, etc), it's best just to tell people what you are doing.

 

 July 15 by CosmicMiami (13 found)

Nice job on the camo. It started to rain and I had to do my best to look inconspicuous walking around in the rain. After taking the cache back to my car, I grabbed a clipboard and made it look like I was doing some kind of survey. I'm thinking a road safety vest might be appropriate for urban caches! TFTC.

 

 July 15 by CosmicMiami (13 found)

Yep, it's done been runned over alright. Cool idea. Couldn't sign log. Took pic with phone. Will send to owner. TFTC. Employees getting off duty so I had to do the GPSr/phone trick.

 

 July 17 by CosmicMiami (13 found)

Must have been the theme for the day. I pulled off the road to read the description and was approached by a non-English speaking security guard for the nearby building. I tried to explain to her that I was surveying some electrical transformers in the area (had my clipboard handy) but she didn't understand English.

This is really a two-person cache. One to drive, the other to find. No nearby parking and no sidewalks.

[This entry was edited by CosmicMiami on Friday, July 18, 2008 at 5:39:25 PM.]

[+wapahani]

I will give an example of one of my caches.

 

Its a public right of way cache. Its a TOUGH cache, originally a 5, but downgraded when it was finally found.

 

A group of 3 cachers spent the better part of 2 hours looking for it and left, they decided to go grab a few "sure" caches and come back. When they came back, the farmer that lives a 1/4 mile down the road came out and tried to run them off.

I know 100% for a fact that the cache isn't in his property, its located out of the fence line to avoid any issues.

Luckily the 3 cachers are all veterans and all ex military and when the farmer started spouting off, they simply told him "its public right of way, its not near your fence, and we aren't trespassing on your land.

He went away.

 

Had you went looking for my cache and then been confronted by him, would you have emailed me? If you had, I would have informed you that it was public ROW and that the cache was fine. I would have said that the farmer is just messing with you.

Unless that is I found out from the farmer you had been on the other side of the fence. The cache page clearly tells you to stay off the fence, don't go over it or anything to trespass.

 

Another cacher once called it "Situational awareness" while caching.

To many cachers don't read the cache page before they go out. I find that the cache owner puts the page up and posts that info for a reason. I'm not saying you didn't read it, I'm just saying some don't!

[+Star*Hopper]

Hate to hijack a thread, but this one is a prime example of poor reply etiquette. I might be extremely new to this particular forum, but I've got many thousands of posts amongst my other hobbies and outdoor activities on other forums. My first impressions of this particular board, "Geocaching Topics", is that there are a lot of really rude posters in here with a serious chip on their shoulders. I certainly do not see the same poor attitude on the "Getting Started" board, which is the only other one that I've lurked through since signing up as a geocacher.

 

This guy asks a perfectly valid question of what he should do about a cache that might be on private property. Then he receives an immediate, off topic, personal attack... then another... and another until he is practically accused of lying to and arguing with a couple sweet little old ladies on a Sunday stroll. What's wrong with simply answering the question instead of making it personal? (By the way, the answer is clearly spelled out on Geocaching.com, just open the cache placement guide and read it).

 

Do you all realize that when folks have to make "spelling correction" posts (not here, but many other threads) or start unfounded arguments or resort to name-calling and personal attacks, that this reflects poorly on the sport and drives away new cachers? Those regulars on here may be the very first people in Geocaching that a new cacher comes into contact with. If they are given a poor first impression, what are the chances that they will stick around? I know I've pretty much seen enough to do without this forum.

 

A successful forum has moderators who actively enforce posting rules and edit or delete posts that detract from the topic or contain personal attacks. Are there any such people around here?

 

I half expect this post will be flamed. Go right ahead, I wear Nomex & Kevlar; but deep down inside, you know I'm right.

 

CosmicMiami, I'm sorry for the hijack, but the hostility I've read through over the last few days on this board is just ridiculous and these folks need to be called on it. Just write a note on the cache log stating that you were approaching the cache area and were told that it is on private property. Leave it at that and move on to another cache. There are plenty of them out there. Good luck with your future hunts.

 

A +1 for the "Noteworthy Posts Of The Year" Award!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And, I would hope, one which MANY on these boards would take under advisement.

 

Yeah. Fat chance.

 

~S*H

[+hikemeister]

Wow -- I had a few minutes to kill and after reading this thread I remember why I don't do this very often.

[CoyoteRed]

Another cacher once called it "Situational awareness" while caching.

To many cachers don't read the cache page before they go out.

Folks also need to understand that simply reading the cache page doesn't mean there is no need for situational awareness. Even if I listed every single possible bit of information needed and not needed for you to go hunt one of our caches, I can't possibly be responsible for mis-entered coordinates on your part or wrong solutions to puzzles. That's just to name two issues that might pop up I have no control over. One should always be assessing whether what they are doing is safe, legal, and ethical.

[+wapahani]

Another cacher once called it "Situational awareness" while caching.

To many cachers don't read the cache page before they go out.

Folks also need to understand that simply reading the cache page doesn't mean there is no need for situational awareness. Even if I listed every single possible bit of information needed and not needed for you to go hunt one of our caches, I can't possibly be responsible for mis-entered coordinates on your part or wrong solutions to puzzles. That's just to name two issues that might pop up I have no control over. One should always be assessing whether what they are doing is safe, legal, and ethical.

 

I agree, but what struck me as odd was having a friend and fellow cacher say "I rarely read the cache page to get info, if I don't find it the first time I will read it!"

 

Sometimes there is more information to be had there on that page, that will in fact make you aware of the situation you will face in the field.

 

Being aware is a must period, but only doing so in the field can be an issue.

Its an issue I see happening more and more.

[CoyoteRed]

Being aware is a must period, but only doing so in the field can be an issue.

I'm sure it can be an issue, but if someone is aware of his surroundings--time of time, neighborhood, park hours, posted restrictions, etc.--like anyone out for a stroll, then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

OTOH, if you have a cache that is so sensitive that you have to beg folks to not doing something, then it's probably better to make it an unknown. Even better is hide it behind a puzzle. Even then there are no guarantees.

 

I know from experience that folks will read the cache page and promptly ignore it. Some folks simply don't care, and will jeopardize your cache and your relationship with the land manager, simply for a smilie.

[+mtn-man]

So, two employees of the private property stopped to offer help or determine why you were on private company property. You lied about why you were there, when you you should have said 'I'm looking for a geocache.".

Last weekend hockeychik.com and I were behind a closed department store in the dark looking for a micro. A policeman pulled up and asked "Can I help you?". We told him we were just geocaching. He laughed, said he had met cachers before, wished us luck and drove off. It took two minutes.

 

Tell the truth. Geocaching is becoming mainstream. People know about it. You might even convert someone who has not heard about it and might introduce them into the game we love so much.

[+WRASTRO]

Being aware is a must period, but only doing so in the field can be an issue.

I'm sure it can be an issue, but if someone is aware of his surroundings--time of time, neighborhood, park hours, posted restrictions, etc.--like anyone out for a stroll, then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

OTOH, if you have a cache that is so sensitive that you have to beg folks to not doing something, then it's probably better to make it an unknown. Even better is hide it behind a puzzle. Even then there are no guarantees.

 

I know from experience that folks will read the cache page and promptly ignore it. Some folks simply don't care, and will jeopardize your cache and your relationship with the land manager, simply for a smilie.

If you have this problem you likely need to rethink your hide.

[+kf4oox]

I am a late comer to this thread. But if I was the first to respond my response would have been:

 

Hello welcome to Geocaching and the forums. I see you are from Dade Co. Fl. I used to go in and out of Brevard Co. Fl. (I use to work on the Eastern Launch Range).

 

What you need to do now after contacting the owner of the cache is to ether email the reviewer or post a need to be archived log.

 

I hope this helps you and that you continue to cache and not let this cause you to stop. As they sound like none security types. As security people have training on how to deal with people and not getting them worked up. As you know sense you are a medic/FF. I also am a volunteer FF here in Pa and we have training on how to deal with the public.

 

Hope this helps

 

Now as you can see I am welcoming him to this hobby. I am not flaming him. I am answering his questions. I am being nice.

 

Some of this is lost here on these forums. Trouble is we are not facing one another to read the person. This leads to a less feel for what is being said and able to read more into the message then what one normally would.

 

I hope this helps

 

kf4oox - Paul

[+WRASTRO]

I am a late comer to this thread. But if I was the first to respond my response would have been:

 

Hello welcome to Geocaching and the forums. I see you are from Dade Co. Fl. I used to go in and out of Brevard Co. Fl. (I use to work on the Eastern Launch Range).

 

What you need to do now after contacting the owner of the cache is to ether email the reviewer or post a need to be archived log.

 

I hope this helps you and that you continue to cache and not let this cause you to stop. As they sound like none security types. As security people have training on how to deal with people and not getting them worked up. As you know sense you are a medic/FF. I also am a volunteer FF here in Pa and we have training on how to deal with the public.

 

Hope this helps

 

Now as you can see I am welcoming him to this hobby. I am not flaming him. I am answering his questions. I am being nice.

 

Some of this is lost here on these forums. Trouble is we are not facing one another to read the person. This leads to a less feel for what is being said and able to read more into the message then what one normally would.

 

I hope this helps

 

kf4oox - Paul

Yep, which is why people ask questions when it isn't clear. In any situation, be it face to face or in an online forum, if you want to present a part of the story you should expect a thoughtful person to ask questions before giving you an answer.

 

I don't buy into the "be nice to the newbie just because he/she is a newbie" concept. Provide enough information to your audience for them to be able to respond in a helpful manner without the need to ask numerous questions in an attempt to be able to reasonably assess the situation.

 

The basic premise of your questions was discussed and the OP decided he/she didn't like the answers and became argumentative. The rest of the discussion has been pretty predictable.

[CoyoteRed]

Being aware is a must period, but only doing so in the field can be an issue.

I'm sure it can be an issue, but if someone is aware of his surroundings--time of time, neighborhood, park hours, posted restrictions, etc.--like anyone out for a stroll, then it shouldn't be an issue.

 

OTOH, if you have a cache that is so sensitive that you have to beg folks to not doing something, then it's probably better to make it an unknown. Even better is hide it behind a puzzle. Even then there are no guarantees.

 

I know from experience that folks will read the cache page and promptly ignore it. Some folks simply don't care, and will jeopardize your cache and your relationship with the land manager, simply for a smilie.

If you have this problem you likely need to rethink your hide.

Yes, the conclusion reached by myself and the land manager was archive the cache. The only requirement from seekers was to only enter the grounds when the gate was open. A simple request that should have been obvious to any visitor, yet ignored by some smilie hounds.

 

It was a great spot, too. Great history and nice settings. Unfortunately also a problem with vandals. Saving a nearly 300 year old historical landmark was more important than accommodating an 8 year old hobby.

[lovetocachewithkids]

Two thugs heck, is it an active quarry? What about blasts?

[lovetocachewithkids]

Two thugs heck, is it an active quarry? What about blasts?