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What Standards, if any, Should their be for Coin Design approval?


Hula Bum

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as i said before, the lack of ethics in any group of people is disheartening and sad. and that includes artists. it is interesting that the ethical concerns, while important to me, seem not to bother anyone else!

 

rsg

 

Lack of ethics? Whose ethics? Based on who's point of view? These are very important questions to answer before making the call.

 

For all of us here, this is a great word to learn and understand daily: Ethnocentrism

 

"Ethnocentrism is the tendency to look at the world primarily from the perspective of one's own culture. Ethnocentrism often entails the belief that one's own race or ethnic group is the most important and/or that some or all aspects of its culture are superior to those of other groups. Within this ideology, individuals will judge other groups in relation to their own particular ethnic group or culture, especially with concern to language, behaviour, customs, and religion. These ethnic distinctions and sub-divisions serve to define each ethnicity's unique cultural identity."

 

Whether we realize we're doing it or not it's all around us and affects our judgement. :D

 

i have agreed with everything you have said up to now! when i am talking about ethics, i am speaking of the ethics of copying other's art to create a coin. not ethnocentrism. ethnic and ethics - two different things. at least in this case.

 

ethics in terms of design i think are fairly simple. you don't copy another piece of work to create your own coin — legally and morally corrupt. right up there with lying, because that is what a designer is doing when they steal from another source, lying about what is original. too many times collectors simply don't know that a piece of art has been used to make a "new" design. when is it an homage and when is it plagerism?

 

those are the ethical questions i was wondering about.

 

rsg

 

My misunderstanding of the intent of your post then. I wasn't attacking a personal point of view, but rather suggesting we as a group should be open to all the differing points of view and their origins considering the global family here and not base our judgements solely on our particular culture.

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The question is what standards do you think are appropriate and what is not?

 

There are coins considered offensive by others, and there are coins that have no relevant association with geocaching. Either way, if you pay the fees and don't upset TPTB, you'll get a trackable coin/icon.

 

So, should there be standards?... why start now?!?

 

A geocoin standards committee probably isn't really in the best business interest of Groundspeak. The tracking numbers are a revenue generating machine, and a committee chucks a monkey wrench into the gears. Groundspeak will permit and deny what it sees fit, so that it doesn't interfere with it's business model. Groundspeak will (hopefully) act in a manner that is best for their business by disallowing anything they feel is contrary to them promoting a family friendly atmosphere.

 

As for being offended/not being offended theme. Everyone has the right to offend anyone. It's simply a matter of character.

 

The only true way to show your disdain for any particular coin is to not include it in your collection. That is really the only aspect of the geocoin hobby that you have ultimate control over. You can post your complaints all you like, but everyone else is entitled to behave or believe in any way they desire.

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Morals, ethics, standards? Oh, come on now.

Morals and ethics are the standards in which the INDIVIDUAL chooses to guide their path in Life and judge others by. Yes, I said JUDGE. We two-leggeds continually attempt to circle the wagons according to "standards". Seeking the comfort and security of like-standard individuals to form "their" teams, groups, organizations, and even countries. Unfortunately, time and time again history shows our little groups use these standards to pre-judge, isolate, exclude or limit other individuals. Stand-sit, left-right, tall-short, my standards-your standards it all sounds like playground banter to me.

If ya don't like it-don't buy it, don't show it, don't look at it, don't touch it. But don't tell me I can't.

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We so have the choice to buy or not buy. But if we go to cache and there is a coin with removable undergarments and strategically places magnets underneath. I have no way of knowing, until the 5 year old I took caching starts shopping the can and pulling everything out. :D

That is the really thing we have to keep in mind.

 

I would never let a five year old go through a cache witthout checking the contents first. There is no guarantee there couldn´t be a knive or some needles from drugs in there... A coindesign would be the least to worry about... :D

:) Spoken like someone who's never gone caching with a 5 year old.

 

 

Point here is people in one area of the country could see a gun shaped coin as a hiking tool while in another area of the country that same coin could represent a weapon.

 

You know, I was actually considering doing a personal coin in the shape of a rifle. I even have a few designs already in photoshop. The ones that don't have rifles on them have bullets on them. I did a few different designs. But now I'm worried I may start WWIII if I do. I'll probably do it anyway when funds permit, but I wonder what if any reaction there would be. I can only hope that it gets one to help me sell a few to cover the cost.

 

Go for it! I'd love to buy some.

 

Groundspeak does need to have somebody looking over the proposed coin designs before they allow them to get tracking numbers. (No committees though, as others have mentioned, that would really gum up the works.) Without some oversight, standards would degenerate and you would begin to see coins featuring hate/violence/sex/racism/etc. I don't know why people always feel like they must push the envelope of decency, but they do.

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We so have the choice to buy or not buy. But if we go to cache and there is a coin with removable undergarments and strategically places magnets underneath. I have no way of knowing, until the 5 year old I took caching starts shopping the can and pulling everything out. :D

That is the really thing we have to keep in mind.

 

I would never let a five year old go through a cache witthout checking the contents first. There is no guarantee there couldn´t be a knive or some needles from drugs in there... A coindesign would be the least to worry about... :D

:D Spoken like someone who's never gone caching with a 5 year old.

 

 

Yup, I never have :) But I would think of that as common sense, if you are worried about a child :D

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Tschakko, you bring up a good point, while one thing is ok in America, another may be in Germany or somewhere else. Likewise things ok here, may not be ok somewhere else. Are there caches/cachers in countries where women uncovered at all may be highly offensive? I don't know, don't know if it matters, or is more an issue of you can't please everyone. How do you make something family friendly when you're dealing with so many cultures? Sorry, bunch of questions with no answers! It certainly brings up a new dynamic.

For that reason, I think the term "Family Friendly" should not be used to describe any standards(here).

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Freedom gives you the right to do what you want.

 

Probably not. What if I want to run people over with my car?

 

How about: Freedom gives you the right to do what you want as long as you do no harm to others.

 

If we agree that this is valid, then we *should* have no problem with any geocoin out there. As folks have stated, if you don't like it then you don't have to buy it.

 

but.... :)

 

What constitutes "harming" another? Can an image, an innuendo, or statement "harm" another? Well....that's why there's this thing called the legal system out there! I understand it employs a few folks too.

 

Which of the following "freedoms" cause harm (rhetorical - intended to make us think, don't answer)

 

Free to be topless in public

Free to burn the flag

Free to sleep on public property

Free to sell pictures of naked people

Free to preach religion in public (Christian and/or Pagan)

Free to play rock and roll, dungeons and dragons, video games

Free to read books

 

Do any of the above "harm" others? Every one of them has caused controversy at some point and many still do. (I stayed away from the obvious constitutional ones :D One of the only times I got "slapped" by a moderator here at Groundspeak relates to my negative feelings on a certain "constitutional right" south of the border that I really don't like.... :D

 

So! back to standards for geocoins. Ultimately, it is Groundspeak that decides with designs pose a threat to the image of their "brand" and the family-friendly stance they seek to encourage. Some coin designs just clearly cross the line, some don't and some are more ... "sneaky"

 

As a company - they can do what they want with their "product" and we, as consumers have the freedom to decide if we wish to partake. In terms of "the coin that shall not be named" - I personally think Groundspeak was pwned - just my opinion though. They did catch and change some of it.

 

As a community, we "breed what we tolerate" - so if this coin offends enough people, then that opinion should at least be expressed. Also, we should share information on coins to avoid etc. As an example, some will seek the "Coins of God" and some will run the other way. I'm not religious myself, but the Christian coins don't offend me in the slightest.

 

Back to Groundspeak - it would be nice if they were a little clearer in stating what they approve, but they are smart not to. Once "written" in stone, it becomes something that can be used as a crutch for bad behaviour: "The rules don't SAY I can't have a coin with me picking my nose and peeing on a tree .. you HAVE to approve it...."

Edited by Lemon Fresh Dog
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I'm not sure why a knife (a common household instrument) should be forbidden (unless it's shown in fashion of violence, but then any instrument shown in that manner would be out for me), but the rest I definitely agree with.

 

I agree. There are many object that can cause harm or kill people that are everyday items. Example include, but not limited too: Pens, cars, toasters, stairs, a hard candy drop. It all depends on how the item is used. While I would say that a knife should never be placed in a cache, I don't believe a geocoin in the shape of a knife is a threat. Unless the geocoin was made to have razor sharp blades, then I would have an issue. There are many non violent uses for a knife, just as a car is considered a deadly weapon when you try to drive someone over with one.

 

maldar

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maldar, I don't think you're getting the point being made about things like alcohol and knives on coins.

 

It's not that they are dangerous or potentially harmful to kids, or anything along those lines. The point is that if a bottle of alcohol isn't deemed to be family-friendly, why is a representation of it ok? Nobody will argue that alcohol can be consumed responsibly, but it's been "banned" from caches, so why wouldn't a coin in the shape of a bottle of alcohol be "banned" as well?

 

Maybe you DO have a point - maybe it's the "can't do harm factor". I don't know. I'm just glad I don't have to make these calls.

 

It appears that most, if not all, of us agree that things like racism, hate and violence should not be allowed. BUT, if you say that are you limiting an individual's ability to express himself/herself? (Notice I didn't say "right to express" as this is still a private company that has the right to control things).

 

It's a tough line. What about cases that are less extreme?

Take the Confederate Flag as an example.

 

It's a source of pride for some, and a symbol of slavery for others. Should that get approved?

Just thinking out loud.....

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maldar, I don't think you're getting the point being made about things like alcohol and knives on coins.

 

It's not that they are dangerous or potentially harmful to kids, or anything along those lines. The point is that if a bottle of alcohol isn't deemed to be family-friendly, why is a representation of it ok? Nobody will argue that alcohol can be consumed responsibly, but it's been "banned" from caches, so why wouldn't a coin in the shape of a bottle of alcohol be "banned" as well?

 

Well, I can't believe I'm posting this for the second time in 72 hours, but here goes anyway.

 

Alcohol and knives are banned from caches because - among other reasons - a kid might find the physical object and harm themselves with them. (I know there are other reasons too.)

 

Images of alcohol and knives are intrinsically unable to cause physical harm, and are deemed sufficiently common - let me guess that every 3 year old in America has seen both, perhaps at the same time if the homemaker in their particular home likes a Martini while chopping zucchini - that they are unlikely to cause mental harm either.

 

Have you ever seen Saudi TV? There, they "bleep" (actually, they just fade the sound down for it) any mention by name of any alcoholic beverage. For example, a character in a cop show might say "yeah, I got real wasted, me and my buddies went to this bar and had 8 beers each". The word "beers" (and no other) will be removed from the dialogue. I guess it keeps Saudi children safe. It's judged unnecessary by TV stations elsewhere. The Saudi attitiude seems unnecessarily strict to this Westerner since it confuses the object and its image. But apparently there are numerous people on this forum who don't easily make the same distinction. (The Saudi police radio alphabet is the same as the US version: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, etc - except that "Whisky" becomes "Washington". Really.)

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So the litmus test is whether or not the object can do physical harm?

 

What about pictures of a loving couple having sex? Most kids have walked in on their parents at some time, too. I say this only half tongue-in-cheek.

 

After a few days of chewing on this, here's where I am.

 

I think all agree that violence and hatred are out. Aside from that I don't want to see guidelines around designs. Why? I think we've all become too PC. Can't say the pledge of allegiance in school, they don't get Christmas vacation, they get "winter holiday" etc. It's too much.

 

So, I may actually changed my mind after reading all the responses in this and the other thread. Is the coin that started this ok to make? Dunno.

 

The second half of this is intent: For example what if somebody wanted to use the Confederate Flag or a swastika on a coin? If it had personal meaning to them and was a positive - sure.

 

If it was geared towards hate and negativity - no.

 

So, if I changed my mind - kudos to those who posted their opinions clearly and in an adult manner. I love open dialogue and exchanges of ideas.

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maldar, I don't think you're getting the point being made about things like alcohol and knives on coins.

 

It's not that they are dangerous or potentially harmful to kids, or anything along those lines. The point is that if a bottle of alcohol isn't deemed to be family-friendly, why is a representation of it ok? Nobody will argue that alcohol can be consumed responsibly, but it's been "banned" from caches, so why wouldn't a coin in the shape of a bottle of alcohol be "banned" as well?

 

Maybe you DO have a point - maybe it's the "can't do harm factor". I don't know. I'm just glad I don't have to make these calls.

 

 

kealia i think you might be missing the point others are trying to make. alcohol should not be labled as being not family-friendly, just because its not legal for kids to drink in the US. growing up, my dad and his friends drank beer in front of us kids, but i don't think i'm morally corrupt because of it. an adult beverage is an adult beverage, not for kids, not for families, yet i wouldn't call it 'not family-friendly' because of that. we put diecast cars in caches, yet cars are dangerous and kids aren't allowed to drive them, but that doesn't make cars 'not family-friendly'.

 

so i guess i am saying that i don't agree that a bottle of alcohol should be deemed not family-friendly. i think bottles of any kind are not the greatest things to go in a cache due to breakability, and i think alcohol in a cache is not a good idea for those cachers with 5-year-olds that open the caches before they do. :D

i think that putting in a cache a representation of something more adult than family oriented should not be a problem unless it is also 'not kid friendly'. am i babbling yet? anyway, a depiction of a booze bottle is just a depiction of something, not a harmful object. a swastica is a depiction of a non-family-friendly idea, not good for people at any age. a depiction of a gun is just a depiction, and depending on how it is depicted may or may not be family friendly, but i know plenty of families who own and use guns as tools of sport or survival (i'm not touching on relevance to geocaching, that's for another thread i think).

 

so as i ramble on here late at night.... i think the bottle coin is allowed because it doesn't pose any of the physical dangers a bottle of alcohol does. things like swasticas don't have any physical danger associated with it as it is a shape, not an object, but i dont think swasticas are 'friendly' to any age group or culture and therefore should not be allowed at all. as for guns and other weaponry, it is the same as the bottles in my mind. weaponry, like so many other objects, has its own cultural and regional differences of opinion i'm sure. i see nothing wrong with a coin depicting a swiss army knife or a knight in armour with a sword, whereas those items would not be appropriate for placement in a cache due to the danger they would pose to other cachers (and i don't know of too many caches that could hold a real knight in armour, :unsure:).

 

so in summary, i think the issue should be of public safety, not censorship of ideas due to a highly subjective idea of family-friendliness. but again, i'm not speaking of what makes a geocoin a geocoin and not just a coin, thats a whole other monkey jumping around these forums.

:)

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So the litmus test is whether or not the object can do physical harm?

 

No, of course not. :)

 

<extremely patient mode on>

There are several possible reasons why an object might not be permitted in a cache (dangerous to the finder, liable to hurt someone, image "not family friendly", likely to offensive or embarrassing to a significant number of people).

 

There are several possible reasons why an object might not be permitted to be depicted on a coin. Of these, "not family-friendly" is one of the more likely.

 

My guess is that the second list of reasons is probably very close to being a strict subset of the first, although I'm not going to try and enumerate all the possibilities here. Therefore, while some things which are unacceptable in a cache are also unacceptable on coin, some others will be acceptable on a coin but not in a cache.

<extremely patient mode off>

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So the litmus test is whether or not the object can do physical harm?

 

No, of course not. :)

 

<extremely patient mode on>

There are several possible reasons why an object might not be permitted in a cache (dangerous to the finder, liable to hurt someone, image "not family friendly", likely to offensive or embarrassing to a significant number of people).

 

There are several possible reasons why an object might not be permitted to be depicted on a coin. Of these, "not family-friendly" is one of the more likely.

 

My guess is that the second list of reasons is probably very close to being a strict subset of the first, although I'm not going to try and enumerate all the possibilities here. Therefore, while some things which are unacceptable in a cache are also unacceptable on coin, some others will be acceptable on a coin but not in a cache.

<extremely patient mode off>

 

Maybe thats why I couldn't get a fighter plane or a Bomber in that cache!

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maldar, I don't think you're getting the point being made about things like alcohol and knives on coins.

 

It's not that they are dangerous or potentially harmful to kids, or anything along those lines. The point is that if a bottle of alcohol isn't deemed to be family-friendly, why is a representation of it ok? Nobody will argue that alcohol can be consumed responsibly, but it's been "banned" from caches, so why wouldn't a coin in the shape of a bottle of alcohol be "banned" as well?

 

Maybe you DO have a point - maybe it's the "can't do harm factor". I don't know. I'm just glad I don't have to make these calls.

 

 

kealia i think you might be missing the point others are trying to make. alcohol should not be labled as being not family-friendly, just because its not legal for kids to drink in the US. growing up, my dad and his friends drank beer in front of us kids, but i don't think i'm morally corrupt because of it. an adult beverage is an adult beverage, not for kids, not for families, yet i wouldn't call it 'not family-friendly' because of that. we put diecast cars in caches, yet cars are dangerous and kids aren't allowed to drive them, but that doesn't make cars 'not family-friendly'.

 

so i guess i am saying that i don't agree that a bottle of alcohol should be deemed not family-friendly. i think bottles of any kind are not the greatest things to go in a cache due to breakability, and i think alcohol in a cache is not a good idea for those cachers with 5-year-olds that open the caches before they do. :)

i think that putting in a cache a representation of something more adult than family oriented should not be a problem unless it is also 'not kid friendly'. am i babbling yet? anyway, a depiction of a booze bottle is just a depiction of something, not a harmful object. a swastica is a depiction of a non-family-friendly idea, not good for people at any age. a depiction of a gun is just a depiction, and depending on how it is depicted may or may not be family friendly, but i know plenty of families who own and use guns as tools of sport or survival (i'm not touching on relevance to geocaching, that's for another thread i think).

 

 

Actually, that's not true at all. The Swastika is one of the oldest surviving symbols on the planet and for 3000 years has been a symbol of all good things until 1920. The very word Swastika translates to "to be good" or "good thing". It's even now a symbol for representing life, sun, power, strength, and good luck in cultures all over the world. Hell, even America has used it in our own military insignias in the past. It's a crying shame that we associate it with only the Nazi party now in Anglo/European societies. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. It's also prominently used in Native American art.

 

So again, this comes down to perception and why I don't think anything should be censored outright unless it's used to convey hatred in some way. We need to keep an open mind/dialogue and this is a great thread for making that happen. :D

 

edit 4 2 spel

Edited by fox-and-the-hound
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Actually, that's not true at all. The Swastika is one of the oldest surviving symbols on the planet and for 3000 years has been a symbol of all good things until 1920. The very word Swastika translates to "to be good" or "good thing". It's even now a symbol for representing life, sun, power, strength, and good luck in cultures all over the world. Hell, even America has used it in our own military insignias in the past. It's a crying shame that we associate it with only the Nazi party now in Anglo/European societies. For Buddhists and Hindus, the swastika is a very religious symbol that is commonly used. It's also prominently used in Native American art.

 

So again, this comes down to perception and why I don't think anything should be censored outright unless it's used to convey hatred in some way. We need to keep an open mind/dialogue and this is a great thread for making that happen. :)

 

edit 4 2 spel

 

When I first started in this forum there was a thread about a Swiss coin (I think that is right) that had a non-smoking symbol on it. Some people were livid that this coin got approved. I'm an ex-smoker and even if I did still smoke it wouldn't have bothered me...but for some people it really hit a nerve. I guess it just goes to show that there are many things that we may never think about that could very much offend others.

 

Someone mentioned a while back about U.S.A. themed coins...while they don't offend me, not everyone has the same ideals or even agrees with them. So while the vast majority may not think twice about it..I'm sure it will not sit right with others. My point? Not sure I have one other than it's not as simple as saying violence, hatred, sex or what ever....almost everything we do can be considered offensive to someone. GS can only try to please the vast majority otherwise very little would get approved.

 

It's a very, tough, tough thing to define and as I said before - not buying what I don't like is the one sure way I know of making my voice heard.

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Physical harm vs. mental harm vs harm to Groundspeak's image

 

Slice and dice at will.

 

Physical harm is easy to understand. I razor blade coin that is sharp - bad idea.

 

Mental harm is hard to define. When someone calls me a "boob" I don't care. Sure. Maybe I *could* stand to lose a few pounds, but I'm tough ... I can....I can.... handle it....

 

Harm to Geocaching/Groundspeak's image - that's really for them to decide, isn't it?

 

It seems to me that the real conversation here is more about what does/does not cause mental harm to others: racism, sexism, patriotism, anti-war, pro-war (or pro-freedom if you are pro-war, I'm more of a peacenik myself), sexual images, images of violence, images of potential violence, cats, dogs, and birds. Personally, I really hate monkeys! (I like apes, but hate monkeys)

 

We need to see where the boundries are. Too "Politically Correct" and we lose flavour and variety. Too "open" an we lack standards and stand for nothing.

Edited by Lemon Fresh Dog
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I still think a lot of messages in this forum are missing what it all comes down to. It's not a matter of right or wrong, good or bad, free speech or censorship.

 

It all comes down to what most things come down to......business.

 

As a business Groundspeak has to protect their image and try to have good PR.

 

We all know that news stories are sensational and I bet 90% of the people only read the headlines.

 

If Groundspeak allowed a coin to made that had a Swastika and the press found out and somebody wanted to do a story the headline wouldn't be about a company that believes in free speech, the headline would be something like.

 

"Company that says it is family friendly is Anti-Semitic"

 

Someone could find one with a rebel flag. Headline:

 

"Family friendly company promotes racism"

 

Someone finds a cache with a coin with a whiskey bottle while out with their kids. This person knows nothing about geocoins. What is the headline.

 

"While out hiking with her kids, woman discovers Geocaching promotes underage drinking"

 

I could go on. As stupid as I know alot of that sounds, you have to admit we have all seen misleading and sensationalistic headlines on a daily basis. We also know that even if something is printed is a lie it's easy to get the lie out there but it's A LOT harder to get the truth out.

 

Just as an example I went onto AOL and here is the lead in for a story:

 

"Marijuana Farm Found on Girl Scout Camp"

 

Now if you just read that headline and don't click and read the story what would you think happened?

 

If you read the story THEN you get to this part.

 

Some of the plants were growing on land belonging to a local resident, while the bulk - about 5,000 plants - were growing on camp land. State troopers in an airplane spotted the plots.

Weidman said the area was in a remote part of the 220-acre camp accessible only by wading through the muck or taking a canoe. The land was bought by the council to provide a safety buffer, she said.

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I completely agree, but where does that leave things like the swastika, where as we saw, for so many automatically trigger thoughts of hate and violence, or the confederate flag (which has been removed as an avatar btw) which flies proudly still in so many areas. It seems to me that unless it is so cut and dry like "die (insert group here)" or something of that sort, that pretty much everything else is in a grey area and therefore should be allowed. I just don't like the subjectiveness of it, the fact that one person is deeming what is or isn't socially acceptable for a group of international diversity that is so varied.

 

So again, this comes down to perception and why I don't think anything should be censored outright unless it's used to convey hatred in some way. We need to keep an open mind/dialogue and this is a great thread for making that happen. :D

 

Agreed.

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Eric, that goes back to the how are coins depicting bottles of Vodka not promoting alcohol? Just like so many are trying to ban alcohol related commercials on TV(mind you, I don't agree. I'm a parent and it's my responsibility to handle this, but like you said, people are quick to blame.) You (general) can't pick and choose what cause or issue you take up, they all (drugs, alcohol, sex, violence, racism) fit into this category and that's my point...

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I completely agree, but where does that leave things like the swastika, where as we saw, for so many automatically trigger thoughts of hate and violence, or the confederate flag (which has been removed as an avatar btw) which flies proudly still in so many areas. It seems to me that unless it is so cut and dry like "die (insert group here)" or something of that sort, that pretty much everything else is in a grey area and therefore should be allowed. I just don't like the subjectiveness of it, the fact that one person is deeming what is or isn't socially acceptable for a group of international diversity that is so varied.

 

So again, this comes down to perception and why I don't think anything should be censored outright unless it's used to convey hatred in some way. We need to keep an open mind/dialogue and this is a great thread for making that happen. :D

 

Agreed.

 

Maybe I get you wrong, but do you think the swastika would be ok on a coin, because to some it is not a bad sign?

 

In my opinion it would be ok, if the coin is about some historic events before the era of violence that made it this "well known". I have seen a documentary, that it meant actually good things to different cultures before that, but I do not remember right now. As ever it depends on the circumstances you present it with...

 

But:

I just wanted to say, that if you did put this on a coin there could be problems with the coin, should it make it´s way to, for example, Germany. The swastika is banned by law. People carrying those items can be arrested for doing so. They eventually can explain their way out of it, but I would not want to have to do that. Now you can say, if you do not want to take the risk, then just leave it... But: If someone would put this coin into one of my caches and a muggle would find the cache and this in there, I could get into some trouble too, there is no way I can control this...

 

I think, when it comes to signs and symbols there is a lot you got to think about...

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Eric, that goes back to the how are coins depicting bottles of Vodka not promoting alcohol? Just like so many are trying to ban alcohol related commercials on TV(mind you, I don't agree. I'm a parent and it's my responsibility to handle this, but like you said, people are quick to blame.) You (general) can't pick and choose what cause or issue you take up, they all (drugs, alcohol, sex, violence, racism) fit into this category and that's my point...

 

It could be because maybe people A,B, and C see a coin with alcohol as promoting alcohol while the people that made the decision, people D,E and F didn't see it that way. Once again, it is hard to put anything into black and white.

 

It could be a matter of small things like a person that doesn't drink may think it's wrong, while a person that does drink wouldn't see anything wrong with it.

 

Hypothetically I wonder if a coin with a cigarette theme would be approved?

 

Also, things have changed over the years and Geocaching has grown quite a bit. Some things they may have approved in the past maybe they wouldn't approve now.

 

I think this could be an endless discussion because there are no right or wrong answers to what is right and wrong.

Edited by Eric K
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I don't care to see hate, violence or politcal coins.

 

Erik you are so right that some people view guns when caching as a tool and others would be offended. For me they are a tool. Where I live there has been in the last few years many drive by shootings, heck they even happen while sitting in your car at a street light. It prompted me to get my own concealed weapons permit so that when I am caching in certains areas of Idaho I have my gun. Also we live in a desert like terrain in some places and have cougars and rattlesnakes. Since my husband is mostly muggle I take my gun in order to protect us. I also have guns on the back side of my v2 mrs. potatohead coins but that is me in another hobby of ours. I'm sure some people might be offended by my guns just as some are with the Christian saying on my v1 coin. You just can't please everyone.

 

Rifleman...PLEASE make your gun coin!!! I'd buy some!! I love guns and we shoot competitively and I would not find it offensive...go rifleman go!!

 

FYI....it was said if you want to make a coin that might offend people (or something to this effect) make it a non trackable coin. Well this would work as long as you do not put the Groundspeak logo on it. If you choose like I did to use the gc.com logo, you will still need to obtain permission from Groundspeak and then you can never sell it.

Edited by LoriDarlin
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I think this could be an endless discussion because there are no right or wrong answers to what is right and wrong.

 

very very true but its interesting to me to see what people like and don't....

 

I think that is one of the reasons I have kept up with this thread.

 

I like it when people discuss their opinions without name calling, or attacking another person.

 

This thread has been filled with thoughtful and intelligent post so far.

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ps There has already been a gun coin made...MINE!! Not only does my mrs potatohead v2 coin on the backside have a gun belt on her but this is the backside of my latest gw6 non trackable micro coin that I did not use the Groundspeak logo on. I suppose I am opening up a can of worms here showing you all this. I didn't put my guns on there to promote violence but rather because its a reflection of me....a friend who knows me well suggested it. I love guns as long as they are used safely, love western stuff, live in the NW and yes i do use a gun as a tool when caching....sometimes but usually only in my own state lol

 

6a2e6768-2c36-46e5-97d9-c6b1e21dff5d.jpg

Edited by LoriDarlin
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I completely agree, but where does that leave things like the swastika, where as we saw, for so many automatically trigger thoughts of hate and violence, or the confederate flag (which has been removed as an avatar btw) which flies proudly still in so many areas. It seems to me that unless it is so cut and dry like "die (insert group here)" or something of that sort, that pretty much everything else is in a grey area and therefore should be allowed. I just don't like the subjectiveness of it, the fact that one person is deeming what is or isn't socially acceptable for a group of international diversity that is so varied.

 

So again, this comes down to perception and why I don't think anything should be censored outright unless it's used to convey hatred in some way. We need to keep an open mind/dialogue and this is a great thread for making that happen. :D

 

Agreed.

 

Maybe I get you wrong, but do you think the swastika would be ok on a coin, because to some it is not a bad sign?

 

 

Absolutely without reservation!!! If I were a cacher from/in that part of the world and it were my religous symbol then I would have just as much right to put it on a coin as anyone who is Christian would have to put a crucifix on a coin. Personally I find all religous symbols on geocoins to be distasteful regardless of origin. It's not that I'm anti-religion, but I don't think politics or religion belong in caches. I'm open to being exposed to new ideas though so maybe I'll change my mind over time. In the meanwhile I can choose to ignore them the same as anyone else who finds offense a coin design. Don't like it, leave it be. Pretty easy. :D

 

Of course, if I see it on a coin that says "Heil Hitler"... :lol:

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Absolutely without reservation!!! If I were a cacher from/in that part of the world and it were my religous symbol then I would have just as much right to put it on a coin as anyone who is Christian would have to put a crucifix on a coin. Personally I find all religous symbols on geocoins to be distasteful regardless of origin. It's not that I'm anti-religion, but I don't think politics or religion belong in caches. I'm open to being exposed to new ideas though so maybe I'll change my mind over time. In the meanwhile I can choose to ignore them the same as anyone else who finds offense a coin design. Don't like it, leave it be. Pretty easy. :D

 

Of course, if I see it on a coin that says "Heil Hitler"... :D

 

If I ever find one coin with such a message it would be the only coin I would take and dispose as soon as possible...

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Tschakko,

 

Are you saying that you would dispose of a coin with the swastika and Hitler refernce, or any coin with the swastika?

 

I ask to understand as well. Seeing where you are from, there are obviously STRONG and immediate feelings invoked with the mention or sight of a swastika.

 

BUT, if it were done in context of someone's else beliefs/history, would you still be offended?

 

For example (from just one of many sites talking about it's origin:

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. 

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Tschakko,

 

Are you saying that you would dispose of a coin with the swastika and Hitler refernce, or any coin with the swastika?

 

I ask to understand as well. Seeing where you are from, there are obviously STRONG and immediate feelings invoked with the mention or sight of a swastika.

 

BUT, if it were done in context of someone's else beliefs/history, would you still be offended?

 

For example (from just one of many sites talking about it's origin:

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. 

 

I would just dispose a coin with the reference to Hitler or the Nazis, as I stated in a post before, I know of other meanings to it, I would not be offended by those. But the sign should not stand on it´s own either, there must be the reference to those other meanings.

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Tschakko,

 

Are you saying that you would dispose of a coin with the swastika and Hitler refernce, or any coin with the swastika?

 

I ask to understand as well. Seeing where you are from, there are obviously STRONG and immediate feelings invoked with the mention or sight of a swastika.

 

BUT, if it were done in context of someone's else beliefs/history, would you still be offended?

 

For example (from just one of many sites talking about it's origin:

Until the Nazis used this symbol, the swastika was used by many cultures throughout the past 3,000 years to represent life, sun, power, strength, and good luck. 

 

I would just dispose a coin with the reference to Hitler or the Nazis, as I stated in a post before, I know of other meanings to it, I would not be offended by those. But the sign should not stand on it´s own either, there must be the reference to those other meanings.

 

Most people that are going to push and agenda or the 'standard' aren't going to do it with blatant and obvious content. They know that will never be accepted; so they do it in subtle ways. Taking the above example someone that wants to use the Nazi stylized swastika knows that they can just throw the words love, good luck, strength in there and justify it all. Over time you can push it more and more as things become accepted. I'm not saying everyone or anyone will do it..just that if they want to push something, that is how it will be done.

 

Also, I think Fox-and-the-Hound mentioned that politics or religion does not belong in caches. I'm sure many will disagree with me but I think it belongs every bit as much as cub scout knifes, coins with flags, nude cachers and rifles. Just like many posts in this thread, what could be considered political or religious by one person may not be by another. Like everything else I think there needs to be limits but I still think they belong.

 

But to this point, I was real nervous about putting my personal coin out because of it's religious content. It is not an agenda but a very important part of my life that I can't easily separate out and it's something I would freely express in person to anyone. It was not intended to be hateful, demeaning or hurtful but still, I thought long and hard about it. I went ahead with it and I tried to make it subtle without taking away the meaning for me. It was very important to me to try and not and offend anyone and I'm hoping most people would feel that way about any coin they want to make....

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But to this point, I was real nervous about putting my personal coin out because of it's religious content. It is not an agenda but a very important part of my life that I can't easily separate out and it's something I would freely express in person to anyone. It was not intended to be hateful, demeaning or hurtful but still, I thought long and hard about it. I went ahead with it and I tried to make it subtle without taking away the meaning for me. It was very important to me to try and not and offend anyone and I'm hoping most people would feel that way about any coin they want to make....

 

I felt the same nervousness with my v1 coin and mine was the second to come out. Cornerstone's mint was faster than mine so he claims fame to being first, dirty scoundrel :rolleyes: What I appreciated about those who didn't really care for it...was that they would trade me but find something else off my list, still allowing me to get the coin I wanted of theirs. There is a couple in particular I think of when I say this. Many others would just not respond and you sort of got the message. Someone that will still trade you, even if for something different in your traders, in my book, are TOPS!!

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Whilst I see no problems with guns on coins there are such different standards and different reactions to events in each nation that an organisation such as Groundspeak will never please everyone. I assume therefore that they have to try and please most of the people most of the times which is why we get an americanised bent to most things

 

So to give some instances

 

Handguns are banned pretty much in the UK since the massacre of 16 in Dunblane school in 1996

 

when 13 were killed in 1999 at Columbine this resulted in zero tolerance of weapons in some schools. Some state is going too far and doesn't work too far

 

In England the army has traditionally been disregarded unless the nation has been under threat this is evidenced throughout history. so for instance Hurrah! For The Life Of A Soldier Some of this is due to the fact that normally our armies were either from the dregs of society or were mercenary. Therefore we politically dont understand the esteem theose in the US put on their armed forces, either in terms of service geocoins, Our troop, our fallen, depictions of bombers or fighter planes as or on coins. We don't get it. To us it is a politial statement to the US it is patriotism.

 

This sort of question will never have an easy answer because as Paul Simon said "One man's Ceiling is another man's floor"

 

So what I miight have called Irish Terrorism, american supporters of Noraid may well have called freedom fighters Noraid reference

 

I would have no problem with a coin depicting Osama bin laden if it came from islamic cachers - we could call it the "you can't cache me Coin". But Groundspeak would have to make the political decision to make it not trackable. Yet Iraqi freedom or Operation Enduring Freedom type coins would get the nod.

 

My point I suppose is that whilst non-american cachers may see Groundspeak in a political light the almighty buck will always conquer. They will approve all coins they think they can harvest their tracking money on, whilst offendiong the least amount of people (I have probably not done that!!)

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The question is what standards do you think are appropriate and what is not? Or if it's anything goes that's ok too...

 

For a personal non trackable coin. Whatever the cachers muse demands is fair game.

For a trackable personal coin the tracking site should check for two things.

A) You can read the tracking info and the instructions are clear.

:rolleyes: The coin has permission for using the tracking sites logo.

They should not care about anything else...but they will.

 

There is a third thing that's rather obvious but hard to iimplement. Trackables are intended to move from cache to cache. Thus they should comply with the laws as it relates to what minors are allowed to "see". Non sexual nudity normally isn't a problem. Graphic Sex on a coin would be..In some places and not others. There are obsenity laws to consider though I'm not sure I've ever seen a coin ever hit that boundary. However it's possible and given time I'm sure someone will cross that bridge. I'm just not sure who the heck want's to step up to the plate and even tackle this issue (meaning take responsiblity for it as well). It would vary by location.

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