Jump to content

What Standards, if any, Should their be for Coin Design approval?


Hula Bum

Recommended Posts

Alright, perhaps a new fresh thread more focused will help. The question is what standards do you think are appropriate and what is not? Or if it's anything goes that's ok too.

Please understand, we all know we don't make the decisions, but it would be interesting to know.

Please do not bring up any specific coins for examples.

Edited by Hula Bum
Link to comment

I don't have a problem with much of anything as long as it's purpose is not to deliberately malign another person playing the game. Short of that, bring it on and let the open market/traders reactions decide their fate. Maybe we'll be exposed to something new and enrich our lives in some small way, too. :D

 

 

 

edit to say: I just noticed your sig line and it's going on our "Quote of the Day" board here at the office! LOL

Edited by fox-and-the-hound
Link to comment

Well, as far as I am concerned, any Designs promoting violence, racism or something in that direction should not be approved. For example knives, brass knuckles or pictures of people hurting another as well as signs like the KKK or swastika (I am not sure about the word, but in the off-topic I saw a picture of a playstationgame with that sign :D ) should be forbidden.

 

As far as sexual content goes, I think a littlebit more liberal, anything, that is not hardcore would be ok with me, as far as you can look at it from a decent view of Art. But this probably would not go with american standards.

Link to comment

Well, as far as I am concerned, any Designs promoting violence, racism or something in that direction should not be approved. For example knives, brass knuckles or pictures of people hurting another as well as signs like the KKK or swastika (I am not sure about the word, but in the off-topic I saw a picture of a playstationgame with that sign :D ) should be forbidden.

 

As far as sexual content goes, I think a littlebit more liberal, anything, that is not hardcore would be ok with me, as far as you can look at it from a decent view of Art. But this probably would not go with american standards.

 

I'm not sure why a knife (a common household instrument) should be forbidden (unless it's shown in fashion of violence, but then any instrument shown in that manner would be out for me), but the rest I definitely agree with.

Link to comment

Well since we don't make the decision about it, the point is sort of moot.

 

I really don't believe in making more rules - especially when those rules are so dependent upon what appears to boil down to a personal belief. What appeals to me may not appeal to others and vice versa. Who am I to say what the standards should be?

 

But since you asked for opinions I would only say that I don't believe that coins should be allowed that promote hate and bigotry against any other group of human beings. I feel pretty strongly about that.

 

I'm not terribly excited about anything that promotes violence either. Lord knows we get enough of that in the MSM. But bare breasts or cheeky innuendos that are sexual in nature don't particularly concern me.

 

Many have said it previously - if you don't like it, don't buy it. That is the best way to 'voice' your opinion anyway.

Link to comment

Tschakko, you bring up a good point, while one thing is ok in America, another may be in Germany or somewhere else. Likewise things ok here, may not be ok somewhere else. Are there caches/cachers in countries where women uncovered at all may be highly offensive? I don't know, don't know if it matters, or is more an issue of you can't please everyone. How do you make something family friendly when you're dealing with so many cultures? Sorry, bunch of questions with no answers! It certainly brings up a new dynamic.

Link to comment

I don't have a problem with much of anything as long as it's purpose is not to deliberately malign another person playing the game. *snip*

 

and there in lies the rub...what you feel deliberately maligns another and what I think can be at total different ends of the scale. There needs to be a balance - an 'anything goes' philosophy is scary to me. Sure I don't have to buy the coins I don't like (which I already do) but it still affects me to an extent...just like my views may do to someone else.

 

So..I think this is what the OP wants and I know I'm opening myself up here but here goes....

 

I would like to not see nudity, blood/violence, cruelty to animals/people, racism, sex and innuendo on a trackable geocoin. These are just general statements and not everything fits neatly into a bucket I understand.

Link to comment

I tend to agree with what has been said so far.

 

Anything with racism, violence, hatred, should not be allowed.

 

Beyond that the area becomes real grey as to what is and isn't offensive.

 

If it's not blatant then I could care less.

 

I think Groundspeak, from as far as what I've seen, has done a great job on what they have allowed and I don't see anything wrong with the current process.

 

I haven't seen every geocoin made, but I can't think of any of the top of my head that has been allowed to be trackable that makes me angry to see.

Edited by Eric K
Link to comment

Tschakko, you bring up a good point, while one thing is ok in America, another may be in Germany or somewhere else. Likewise things ok here, may not be ok somewhere else. Are there caches/cachers in countries where women uncovered at all may be highly offensive? I don't know, don't know if it matters, or is more an issue of you can't please everyone. How do you make something family friendly when you're dealing with so many cultures? Sorry, bunch of questions with no answers! It certainly brings up a new dynamic.

 

Well, I guess, since geocaching is around the globe, you gotta take the most limiting values from every country or culture and then declare it the line you judge the designs by...

Link to comment

I don't have a problem with much of anything as long as it's purpose is not to deliberately malign another person playing the game. *snip*

 

and there in lies the rub...what you feel deliberately maligns another and what I think can be at total different ends of the scale. There needs to be a balance - an 'anything goes' philosophy is scary to me. Sure I don't have to buy the coins I don't like (which I already do) but it still affects me to an extent...just like my views may do to someone else.

 

So..I think this is what the OP wants and I know I'm opening myself up here but here goes....

 

I would like to not see nudity, blood/violence, cruelty to animals/people, racism, sex and innuendo on a trackable geocoin. These are just general statements and not everything fits neatly into a bucket I understand.

 

While any anything goes philosphy is indeed scary, a censor it all philosophy is even more scary to me. You manage to avoid all the other things that offend you in real life, why should caching be any different? We're responsible for ourselves, not for everyone with an opposing view. To answer HB's question, yes there are places where if you (if you're female) let just a bit of ankle show even by accident you can be beaten brutally in the street. I imagine a bare breast would probably be an end to you. Because we can't please every culture, we shouldn't try to build judgement based on those factors. There's the real rub unfortunately :D

Link to comment

i am more concerned with the ethics of coin design that what actually goes on the coin. i figure GS and the prevailing political-correctness wind will govern the things that can be depicted or not. i am the one controlling my purse strings, and if i don't like a coin, then i don't buy it. simple.

 

but coins that deliberately copy another piece of art should not be allowed - especially if the artist is calling the design original. original means just that. coming from the creative center, if you will, of the artist.

 

one coin should not copy another and then put a new name on it.

 

there is inspiration and then there is plagerism.

 

i don't see how this could be governed. designers would have to understand that this is not acceptable and if coins are found to be copies, then they are no longer welcome on GS. a couple of those and folks would get the idea - money lost etc.

 

my two coins worth

 

rsg

Link to comment

While any anything goes philosphy is indeed scary, a censor it all philosophy is even more scary to me. You manage to avoid all the other things that offend you in real life, why should caching be any different? We're responsible for ourselves, not for everyone with an opposing view. To answer HB's question, yes there are places where if you (if you're female) let just a bit of ankle show even by accident you can be beaten brutally in the street. I imagine a bare breast would probably be an end to you. Because we can't please every culture, we shouldn't try to build judgement based on those factors. There's the real rub unfortunately :D

 

My point is that I am not able to avoid it with the other things in real life either. So, people seem to have a right to offend me but I don't have a right to say "stop"...that's all I'm saying. When I do say stop I'm considered a prude, religious nut or along those lines. My rights as well as others need to be taken into account and saying - just avoid it...is a cop out.

 

Sorry to ramble... That is my belief but I'm not as smart as some people at putting the words together.

Link to comment

Whichever standards Groundspeak chooses.

 

But if I were pushed for my personal standard, which is not entirely my original work:

 

"Could you give the coin to your 7-year-old daughter without immediate embarrassment to her or you?"

 

Note: this even allows for a minimum of innuendo, provided it sails sufficiently far over the head of the average 7-year-old. I personally think it covers the "coin which we aren't meant to discuss in here", subject of course to your 7-year-old's previous exposure to ovals within circles. :D

Link to comment

While any anything goes philosphy is indeed scary, a censor it all philosophy is even more scary to me. You manage to avoid all the other things that offend you in real life, why should caching be any different? We're responsible for ourselves, not for everyone with an opposing view. To answer HB's question, yes there are places where if you (if you're female) let just a bit of ankle show even by accident you can be beaten brutally in the street. I imagine a bare breast would probably be an end to you. Because we can't please every culture, we shouldn't try to build judgement based on those factors. There's the real rub unfortunately :D

 

My point is that I am not able to avoid it with the other things in real life either. So, people seem to have a right to offend me but I don't have a right to say "stop"...that's all I'm saying. When I do say stop I'm considered a prude, religious nut or along those lines. My rights as well as others need to be taken into account and saying - just avoid it...is a cop out.

 

Sorry to ramble... That is my belief but I'm not as smart as some people at putting the words together.

 

No one has a "right" to offend you, ever. I hope I didn't imply that. You have a right to censor your intake in any way that fits with your lifestyle. I have the same right. My point is more of question of where do we draw the line on where your rights begin and mine stop? More pointedly, at what point are your self-censorship rights (or mine) more important than someone else being exposed to new ideas/ideals/information of any kind? For example, if I find the Venus De Milo offensive, should I have the right to keep anyone else here from seeing it on a coin? My rights and yours should only protect us up to the point that they infringe on someone else's rights. After that, we shouldn't have a say. We can't have it both ways. Free speech means more than just talking. It's also about listening and learning without being impeded in the process, too. :D

Edited by fox-and-the-hound
Link to comment

There is always going to be cultural inaapropriateness as culture by itsd very essence is specific to its area/tribe geographical location etc.

 

So Hula Bums Avatar is not appropriate in some muslim countries but does not affect me.

 

Even Linguistically there are major differences between places speaking the "same" language

 

So Chunder in this area of england is to gossip there is a different meaning in Oz

A Fanny is very impolite here but want a Fag (a cigarette) or a knock up in the morning (to be woken at a set time) is ok

 

What we have to avoid is cultural imperialism such that one culture fits all which it obviously doesn't.

Groundspeak have been known to fall into this trap previously because it is easier (if anyone wants justification of this statement a review of my previous posts might be enlightening) so lets not encourage more of this. This sort of topic can only end up in more disagreement and then Legislation for my part lets not go that way. I hate the imperialism of america and the god bless our troops type coins. but each to there own. when I look at the tie dye, hippy bus coins I have this song running through my head

 

Where are the flowers that we put into the muzzles of the guns?

Dried up and pressed inside a frame, they never get a second glance.

The love that we would banish war with, on bombed out streets now naked stands.

Where are the flowers that we put into the muzzles of the guns?

 

Where is the innocence of youth, the stars that once were in our eyes

When did we learn to cover truth with our excuses and our lies?

When did our ideals falter? Tell me, when did we change our plans?

Where are the flowers that we put into the muzzles of the guns?

 

Our lives from others we have learned to separate

From evil we avert our eyes.

More often war it is, and not love that we make

And all the time we compromise.

 

We used to turn the other cheek, but now we turn our face away.

We were the blessed and the meek; our future brighter than the day.

But we've forgotten Luther's message; we never ask ourselves, not once:

Where are the flowers that we put into the muzzles of the guns?

 

But we've arrived, and as we pat each other's backs

Our principles we now betray

And year on year as we progress and we advance,

It's not just hair that's turning grey...

 

Where are the flowers that we put into the muzzles of the guns?

Where are the lessons we would pass on to our daughters and our sons?

And did we ever make a difference? and did we ever stand a chance?

Where are the flowers that we put into the muzzles of the guns?

 

© copyright 2002 George Papavgeris

 

Lets make , sell trade Geocoins and if you don't like it then just keep away from it. I dont like the NW England coin but if people do great. I aint buying but will offer advice if asked.

 

Lets just not bitch

 

Bob

Link to comment

Well, as far as I am concerned, any Designs promoting violence, racism or something in that direction should not be approved. For example knives, brass knuckles or pictures of people hurting another as well as signs like the KKK or swastika (I am not sure about the word, but in the off-topic I saw a picture of a playstationgame with that sign :D ) should be forbidden.

A swiss army knife is in no way a tool to promote violence. It's a survival tool. I do agree about the racism and degredation of people not being acceptable as do about 99% of the rest of cachers.

 

While any anything goes philosphy is indeed scary, a censor it all philosophy is even more scary to me.

SNIP*

I couldn't agree more. I'm definitely not of the mindset that anything goes, but let's be realisitc. This is a global setting where no matter what you do, you will always offend someone. The key is to find a happy medium. Try to not offend someone that is more conservative while still making it enjoyable for everyone else.

 

I think Groundspeak, from as far as what I've seen, has done a great job on what they have allowed and I don't see anything wrong with the current process.

SNIP*

 

I second that.

Link to comment

While any anything goes philosophy is indeed scary, a censor it all philosophy is even more scary to me. You manage to avoid all the other things that offend you in real life, why should caching be any different? We're responsible for ourselves, not for everyone with an opposing view. To answer HB's question, yes there are places where if you (if you're female) let just a bit of ankle show even by accident you can be beaten brutally in the street. I imagine a bare breast would probably be an end to you. Because we can't please every culture, we shouldn't try to build judgment based on those factors. There's the real rub unfortunately :D

 

My point is that I am not able to avoid it with the other things in real life either. So, people seem to have a right to offend me but I don't have a right to say "stop"...that's all I'm saying. When I do say stop I'm considered a prude, religious nut or along those lines. My rights as well as others need to be taken into account and saying - just avoid it...is a cop out.

 

Sorry to ramble... That is my belief but I'm not as smart as some people at putting the words together.

 

To me, that is where problems start. When the "rights" of one person or group infringe on the "rights" of another then there can be problems. As I see it, as long as Ground Speak (GS) takes a middle of the road approach we should be able to avoid the things that happen to offend us. GS may let one slip by or reject one that may upset one group or another because of this approach but I think we can be adult enough to get over it quite easily. Though I may not like some of the coin designs, I will not let that influence the production of another like it. If a coin is deemed inappropriate by the group as a whole, then I bet that coin will not have very good sales and that would indeed influence the next coins design.

 

I don't think any coin that has an "in-your-face" design will get by GS but that hasn't stopped coins from being produced. But these coins also don't get much mileage because they are not trackable and that seems to be one of the major desirable traits for the coin community (mystery coins not withstanding).

Link to comment

No one has a "right" to offend you, ever. I hope I didn't imply that. You have a right to censor your intake in any way that fits with your lifestyle. I have the same right. My point is more of question of where do we draw the line on where your rights begin and mine stop? More pointedly, at what point are your self-censorship rights (or mine) more important than someone else being exposed to new ideas/ideals/information of any kind? For example, if I find the Venus De Milo offensive, should I have the right to keep anyone else here from seeing it on a coin? My rights and yours should only protect us up to the point that they infringe on someone else's rights. After that, we shouldn't have a say. We can't have it both ways. Free speech means more than just talking. It's also about listening and learning with being impeded in the process, too. :D

 

Which is why I mentioned a balance...I just don't like the 'anything goes' route. I know I have to live with certain things that will offend me - and those I can deal with. If they are pushed on me then I need to push back.

 

I don't want to draw another line in the sand as to what should or shouldn't be allowed. GS has already done that and I think for the most part they are doing a pretty good job of it. Sure there are coins I don't like and designs/designers are going to bounce around that center line pushing the envelope. That's where we come in...the balance will shift based on what sells and what feedback we give to GS.

 

I like the analogy of what would be appropriate for my kids. A lot would just go over their heads and we (me) need to raised them in preparation of those things that might not. Not too many coins coming out (that I know of) would trigger a negative response in my young kids. There are few coins I can think of but not many.

Link to comment

We so have the choice to buy or not buy. But if we go to cache and there is a coin with removable undergarments and strategically places magnets underneath. I have no way of knowing, until the 5 year old I took caching starts shopping the can and pulling everything out. :D

That is the really thing we have to keep in mind.

Link to comment

We so have the choice to buy or not buy. But if we go to cache and there is a coin with removable undergarments and strategically places magnets underneath. I have no way of knowing, until the 5 year old I took caching starts shopping the can and pulling everything out. :D

That is the really thing we have to keep in mind.

 

I would never let a five year old go through a cache witthout checking the contents first. There is no guarantee there couldn´t be a knive or some needles from drugs in there... A coindesign would be the least to worry about... :D

Link to comment

This is one of those questions that I don't think has a definite answer or a "right" answer. Plenty of good points made in here so far. What's appropriate for you and me will probably be different things. Much like the arguement; how is this coin geocaching related?

 

Things I would not want to see on a coin: vulgarity, hate messages, or anything that puts another culture, class, race in a negative light kinda thing.

 

Now having said that; nudity on a coin is a great example of something that many might have a number of differing opinions on. Having lived in Europe and several other coutries outside of Europe and the US, nudity just isn't that big of a deal. To many Americans it's seen as sexual so to speak. You go to a beach in most places, remove your top or suit altogether you're probably going to be cited for violating local law. Yet, go to the beach in Germany where you can freely remove your bathing suit top and no one gives a rip. (Personally I wouldn't want my ta-ta's burned but I'm pigment challenged anyhow :D). So how do you really say what is appropriate for the masses in this situation, where many cultures find nudity acceptable and others haven't quite observed it as openly and nonsexual in nature?

 

I think the majority can all agree that a penis or vagina coin done with the express intent to be 'naughty by nature'-- 80's/90's(?) flash back, is not appropriate.

 

In the end, I dont' want to be censored or have to go through a review committee. Self-policing works for me. I liked the knife coins, heck, I love it when someone leaves a nice little Swiss Army type knife in a cache because I use them :D I don't drink but it doesn't bother me that there are drinking related coins. I've seen themed coins that I would never think of minting but everyone has the right to mint what they like.

 

You don't like it, you don't buy it. You wanna make a naughty coin, go nontrackable. I refuse to say what is proper or what isn't, I can only define that for myself.

 

From an Imperialistic American :D

Link to comment

This is one of those questions that I don't think has a definite answer or a "right" answer. Plenty of good points made in here so far. What's appropriate for you and me will probably be different things. Much like the arguement; how is this coin geocaching related?

 

Things I would not want to see on a coin: vulgarity, hate messages, or anything that puts another culture, class, race in a negative light kinda thing.

 

Now having said that; nudity on a coin is a great example of something that many might have a number of differing opinions on. Having lived in Europe and several other coutries outside of Europe and the US, nudity just isn't that big of a deal. To many Americans it's seen as sexual so to speak. You go to a beach in most places, remove your top or suit altogether you're probably going to be cited for violating local law. Yet, go to the beach in Germany where you can freely remove your bathing suit top and no one gives a rip. (Personally I wouldn't want my ta-ta's burned but I'm pigment challenged anyhow :D). So how do you really say what is appropriate for the masses in this situation, where many cultures find nudity acceptable and others haven't quite observed it as openly and nonsexual in nature?

 

I think the majority can all agree that a penis or vagina coin done with the express intent to be 'naughty by nature'-- 80's/90's(?) flash back, is not appropriate.

 

In the end, I dont' want to be censored or have to go through a review committee. Self-policing works for me. I liked the knife coins, heck, I love it when someone leaves a nice little Swiss Army type knife in a cache because I use them :D I don't drink but it doesn't bother me that there are drinking related coins. I've seen themed coins that I would never think of minting but everyone has the right to mint what they like.

 

You don't like it, you don't buy it. You wanna make a naughty coin, go nontrackable. I refuse to say what is proper or what isn't, I can only define that for myself.

 

From an Imperialistic American :D

 

On the knife thing I think that is the same as you were saying different countries have different values or see things differently.

 

From where you are in Montana, or if you stay in the more wide open areas of the country you may see a knife as a utility tool.

 

Where I am from in the city we see a knife and think of it as a murder weapon.

 

NOTE: This is not saying I disagree with the Swiss Army coin or icons. I have NO problem with them whatsoever. This is strictly to point out that even here in the states in different regions things are viewed differently.

 

I've heard of cachers that go caching with guns in case they need to defend themselves against snakes, or bears, or whatever. They see the gun as a survival tool.

 

I am from Ohio, if I went hiking with a gun I would have the police arresting me by the time I returned to my car.

 

Point here is people in one area of the country could see a gun shaped coin as a hiking tool while in another area of the country that same coin could represent a weapon.

 

I, however, would not say that type of coin should not be made. I would back it 100% but I would not purchase it or move it from a cache myself.

Link to comment

 

Point here is people in one area of the country could see a gun shaped coin as a hiking tool while in another area of the country that same coin could represent a weapon.

 

You know, I was actually considering doing a personal coin in the shape of a rifle. I even have a few designs already in photoshop. The ones that don't have rifles on them have bullets on them. I did a few different designs. But now I'm worried I may start WWIII if I do. I'll probably do it anyway when funds permit, but I wonder what if any reaction there would be. I can only hope that it gets one to help me sell a few to cover the cost.

Link to comment
snip...Try to not offend someone that is more conservative while still making it enjoyable for everyone else.<<<<<

 

the last thing i would be thinking about is if something offends anyone at all. that is beyond my control.

 

pretty much nothing offends me, but then that is me. i have control over my reactions to everything, people, words, emotions. i refuse to be guided by what someone else might think, and that includes coin design.

 

as i said before, the lack of ethics in any group of people is disheartening and sad. and that includes artists. it is interesting that the ethical concerns, while important to me, seem not to bother anyone else!

 

sex, nudity, booze and knives - whatever works in the community that supports it. i don't have to buy the coin nor do i try to determine what other people should do. other than parents be responsible for what their children see and do.

 

perhaps a coin of a nude guy holding a gun with flowers in the barrel placed in a stragic position of course, to avoid "offending" anyone's sensibilities. wonder if it could be trackable. :D

 

rsg

Link to comment

 

Point here is people in one area of the country could see a gun shaped coin as a hiking tool while in another area of the country that same coin could represent a weapon.

 

You know, I was actually considering doing a personal coin in the shape of a rifle. I even have a few designs already in photoshop. The ones that don't have rifles on them have bullets on them. I did a few different designs. But now I'm worried I may start WWIII if I do. I'll probably do it anyway when funds permit, but I wonder what if any reaction there would be. I can only hope that it gets one to help me sell a few to cover the cost.

 

If you want it trackable then submit the idea to Groundspeak. If they approve it then you are allowed to sell it.

 

If you are doing a non-trackable then you can do whatever you want.

Link to comment

 

as i said before, the lack of ethics in any group of people is disheartening and sad. and that includes artists. it is interesting that the ethical concerns, while important to me, seem not to bother anyone else!

 

rsg

 

Not true at all, that's just a different subject, one of which I thought people had been quite vocal about in another thread.

Link to comment
snip...Try to not offend someone that is more conservative while still making it enjoyable for everyone else.<<<<<

sex, nudity, booze and knives - whatever works in the community that supports it. i don't have to buy the coin nor do i try to determine what other people should do. other than parents be responsible for what their children see and do.

 

perhaps a coin of a nude guy holding a gun with flowers in the barrel placed in a stragic position of course, to avoid "offending" anyone's sensibilities. wonder if it could be trackable. :D

 

rsg

 

Agreed, it's up to the parents to decide what their 5 year old sees. It's no different than deciding which shows on TV you let your kids watch.

 

The second part is funny. For some reason, I don't think that coin would sell too many copies.

Link to comment

While any anything goes philosphy is indeed scary, a censor it all philosophy is even more scary to me. You manage to avoid all the other things that offend you in real life, why should caching be any different? We're responsible for ourselves, not for everyone with an opposing view. To answer HB's question, yes there are places where if you (if you're female) let just a bit of ankle show even by accident you can be beaten brutally in the street. I imagine a bare breast would probably be an end to you. Because we can't please every culture, we shouldn't try to build judgement based on those factors. There's the real rub unfortunately :D

 

My point is that I am not able to avoid it with the other things in real life either. So, people seem to have a right to offend me but I don't have a right to say "stop"...that's all I'm saying. When I do say stop I'm considered a prude, religious nut or along those lines. My rights as well as others need to be taken into account and saying - just avoid it...is a cop out.

 

Sorry to ramble... That is my belief but I'm not as smart as some people at putting the words together.

 

On the other side of the street I take offense to all the proselytizing going on with geocoins. I am offended by all the christian and weapons coins. I always thought faith and worship was a personal and private matter and the capacity to incite and to do war is not something to boast about. So I don't buy them and I don't denigrate those who find them appealling. To use the Carpenter's words, I turn the other cheek.

 

As for cheeky innuendo... what's the harm in it? Maybe because I was raised on cartoons that were full of it and still are. Maybe I was raised with so much art in public places that depicted nude forms, some cavorting some not. The subject matter had as much to do with "pagan" as it did biblical mythology. Nude cherubs, bare breasted angels adorn many churches and cathedrals I've been in... the Vatican included. Greek and Roman mythology is a large part of the our Western Cultural heritage so I accept it and embrace it. Though I appreciate that many folks don't like it and even reject it. It's part of their upbringing and what they've been taught.

Link to comment

 

as i said before, the lack of ethics in any group of people is disheartening and sad. and that includes artists. it is interesting that the ethical concerns, while important to me, seem not to bother anyone else!

 

 

rsg

 

My only issue with your statement (for purposes of this thread) is what is ethically/morally right to you and me may not be for another person. If I feel something is ethically wrong (and believe me, I do and have agrued with friends over certain issues) does not mean it is ethically wrong. It only make it ethically wrong to me. There isn't techincally a lack of ethics, although I know you'd argue that point. It's a diiference in where the ethical line is drawn.

Link to comment

*snip* I always thought faith and worship was a personal and private matter *snip*

 

And I've always thought the same thing about sex as personal and private matter. I agree it's all about perspective and the nudity you mention I think of as art when done tastefully but many others would disagree....

 

It's a very difficult topic with so many points of view. I think I will go find a nice calm cointest or mission thread now..

Link to comment

Can't resist.

 

I think there are various ethical foundations.

 

Global, National, Regional and Personal.

 

When Groundspeak chooses to approve/deny a coin, they are likely doing so based upon their own life experiences and feelings of right/wrong. What these are is anyone's guess and probably in conflict with at least some of each other persons moral world view.

 

As a global business with a definate American (US) bias, the company is likely to be pretty much at a national morality level. So things like guns, knives, and other associated "freedoms" of the US constitution are likely to get approval. Whereas in other parts of the world we may be wondering "what were they thinking?".

 

In the end, I think that the filter at the Groundspeak level has to be pretty "wide" on what gets accepted. It then needs to be re-filtered based upon your own personal foundation (buy/not buy share/hide and so on).

 

So coins with an obvious agenda, specific imagry and such will most likely get denied. Those that are subtle (or even pretty non-subtle) will likely get approved if there is any subjective "wiggle" room as to "does it or doesn't it".

 

Hence, we will get coins such as the "coin that shall not be named" - because it isn't "obvious" enough not to get approved. This "coin that shall not be named" was *almost* obvious enough, but some changes were made from what I understood.

Edited by Lemon Fresh Dog
Link to comment

 

as i said before, the lack of ethics in any group of people is disheartening and sad. and that includes artists. it is interesting that the ethical concerns, while important to me, seem not to bother anyone else!

 

 

rsg

 

My only issue with your statement (for purposes of this thread) is what is ethically/morally right to you and me may not be for another person. If I feel something is ethically wrong (and believe me, I do and have agrued with friends over certain issues) does not mean it is ethically wrong. It only make it ethically wrong to me. There isn't techincally a lack of ethics, although I know you'd argue that point. It's a diiference in where the ethical line is drawn.

 

The problem allowing "offense" to rule the day is that we then live in a world of complete tyranny. Anyone can be offended by anything. The few who are easily offended and are belligerent then rule the day. I don't think anyone wants to live in that kind of world.

 

Nudecacher

Link to comment

 

as i said before, the lack of ethics in any group of people is disheartening and sad. and that includes artists. it is interesting that the ethical concerns, while important to me, seem not to bother anyone else!

 

rsg

 

Lack of ethics? Whose ethics? Based on who's point of view? These are very important questions to answer before making the call.

 

For all of us here, this is a great word to learn and understand daily: Ethnocentrism

 

"Ethnocentrism is the tendency to look at the world primarily from the perspective of one's own culture. Ethnocentrism often entails the belief that one's own race or ethnic group is the most important and/or that some or all aspects of its culture are superior to those of other groups. Within this ideology, individuals will judge other groups in relation to their own particular ethnic group or culture, especially with concern to language, behaviour, customs, and religion. These ethnic distinctions and sub-divisions serve to define each ethnicity's unique cultural identity."

 

Whether we realize we're doing it or not it's all around us and affects our judgement. :D

Link to comment

That is along the lines of what I was rambling about in an earlier post. Do we have a responsibility to be sensitive to the many other cultures that play this game, or because it is an American based Co. should this not be a concern? (yes, I know it's really not up to us, but for the sake of interesting conversation in here and something other than a cointest!)

Link to comment
So things like guns, knives, and other associated "freedoms" of the US constitution are likely to get approval. Whereas in other parts of the world we may be wondering "what were they thinking?".

 

This made me smile because it's so true. Not so long ago I contacted an artist acquaintance of mine who happens to live in the UK to see if he'd work up some art for a coin design.

 

I mentioned having an ammo can in the picture and his reaction was pretty interesting...something along the line of not even knowing what one looks like and the surprise at the notion that we'd be playing a game that sort of glorified one. I think that in many other places of the world you'd get the reaction of "Only in America" when it comes to guns/weapons being so common place.

 

So yes, the notion of ethnocentrism can most definitely apply when discussing this topic...in many different ways, including the influence on TPTB who give the approval/disapproval for coin designs.

Link to comment

 

as i said before, the lack of ethics in any group of people is disheartening and sad. and that includes artists. it is interesting that the ethical concerns, while important to me, seem not to bother anyone else!

 

rsg

 

Lack of ethics? Whose ethics? Based on who's point of view? These are very important questions to answer before making the call.

 

For all of us here, this is a great word to learn and understand daily: Ethnocentrism

 

"Ethnocentrism is the tendency to look at the world primarily from the perspective of one's own culture. Ethnocentrism often entails the belief that one's own race or ethnic group is the most important and/or that some or all aspects of its culture are superior to those of other groups. Within this ideology, individuals will judge other groups in relation to their own particular ethnic group or culture, especially with concern to language, behaviour, customs, and religion. These ethnic distinctions and sub-divisions serve to define each ethnicity's unique cultural identity."

 

Whether we realize we're doing it or not it's all around us and affects our judgement. :D

 

i have agreed with everything you have said up to now! when i am talking about ethics, i am speaking of the ethics of copying other's art to create a coin. not ethnocentrism. ethnic and ethics - two different things. at least in this case.

 

ethics in terms of design i think are fairly simple. you don't copy another piece of work to create your own coin — legally and morally corrupt. right up there with lying, because that is what a designer is doing when they steal from another source, lying about what is original. too many times collectors simply don't know that a piece of art has been used to make a "new" design. when is it an homage and when is it plagerism?

 

those are the ethical questions i was wondering about.

 

rsg

Link to comment

 

Point here is people in one area of the country could see a gun shaped coin as a hiking tool while in another area of the country that same coin could represent a weapon.

 

You know, I was actually considering doing a personal coin in the shape of a rifle. I even have a few designs already in photoshop. The ones that don't have rifles on them have bullets on them. I did a few different designs. But now I'm worried I may start WWIII if I do. I'll probably do it anyway when funds permit, but I wonder what if any reaction there would be. I can only hope that it gets one to help me sell a few to cover the cost.

There is a major difference between you doing a perosnal coin with a musket loader on it and some nim wit doing the gangsta series which features Tec9s and Mac 10s. Sadly there are people who will just complain about it either way and not be able to see the difference.

Link to comment

I think what it boils down to for me is that all of this stuff-sex, drugs, guns, and even religion are personal matters, and when GS puts a tracking # on it they are at some level endorsing it.

 

Make it a personal sig item (read non trackable) and you have the right to do whatever you want.

 

As a game I think they should stay out of it and just keep it simple. Yes, I know, this would mean a serious hit for them in terms of tracking numbers and thus it'll never happen, but it's how I see it.

Link to comment

That is along the lines of what I was rambling about in an earlier post. Do we have a responsibility to be sensitive to the many other cultures that play this game, or because it is an American based Co. should this not be a concern? (yes, I know it's really not up to us, but for the sake of interesting conversation in here and something other than a cointest!)

 

Well, I do not like the idea of we and you, I think it is an us in this game. But just for discussions sake:

 

In my opinion, there is a certain responsibility, that "you" have, as "you" allowed the game to spread over the world. Just because it is an american based company does not mean "you" do not have the responsbility of what happens to the game in "our" countries and cultures...

 

I know it is not easy to limit oneself on other peoples behalf, but I think it is a sign of respect, that "we" deserve...

 

Just my 2 cents :D

Link to comment

I think what it boils down to for me is that all of this stuff-sex, drugs, guns, and even religion are personal matters, and when GS puts a tracking # on it they are at some level endorsing it.

 

Make it a personal sig item (read non trackable) and you have the right to do whatever you want.

 

As a game I think they should stay out of it and just keep it simple. Yes, I know, this would mean a serious hit for them in terms of tracking numbers and thus it'll never happen, but it's how I see it.

 

I think every coin they approve is endorsing something. With that logic they shouldn't allow any coins with Jeeps on them because then they are endorsing Jeeps and not endorsing Hondas, etc.

 

If they approve coins with US flags then they are endorsing the United States but not China.

 

If they approve coins with dogs, then they are not endorsing cats, etc, etc.

 

I'm just saying IMO if they start going down that road eventually the only tracking coin that would be approved would be coin that is just a blank.

 

I think they should leave the system as is. As long as it isn't blatantly something hateful let it be made. If you don't like it, no one is forcing it on you.

 

Going to extremes in any direction is a bad thing. For those that think anything should be allowed that would just be a stupid corporate decision. Groundspeak is a company, they would be making a dumb corporate move if they approved coins that promoted hate and violence. I don't think that is a matter of free speech or censorship. That is a business matter.

Edited by Eric K
Link to comment

I'm not so sure that the concept of "freedom" excludes the ability to have ethical boundaries. Of course, those boundaries will differ from person to person.

 

In my case, violence, gratuitous sexual content (especially content that objectifies women and de-humanizes them) and themes of racism/hate all are categories that I will lend my voice to fight against.

 

After all "If you don't stand for something, then you don't stand for nothing at all".

 

That stated. There are different opinions on where the line gets drawn. For example, is a gun a symbol of violence or a symbol of freedom (do NOT answer that!!!! it's rhetorical and could get us WAY off topic).

 

Racism is probably the easiest to agree upon in terms of boundaries. I read some comics from the 30's/40's and the portrayal of other cultures is biased and would be considered questionable today.

 

Violence is more difficult. I enjoy the game Grand Theft Auto. It's rated such that I know it is adult, but it can certainly be violent. Does it cross the line? (rhetorical again).

 

Sex....ah sex....THAT's the hardest one of all to get agreement on. The suggestion of a bare breast, to the images of man/sheep love. There are so many variations/tastes/thoughts and so on. Your own personal view is guaranteed to make you a prude to half the crowd and a pervert to the other half (depending on just how wacky you are, of course!)

 

That is where we then look at this as a GAME and ask where the above fit in or get banned (because, to be sure, these themes exist in our lives and will creep into activities we share together).

 

I guess the morality of Groundspeak wins. It's their site and, to some extent, their "playing field". Generally, I trust them enough to be "good" - in my own loose definition of the word. Sometimes I disagree with their take on things (there are some coins that really *do* seem to push an agenda - whether that agenda is American patriotism, western religion, or even sexual innuendo. Intention counts. So I wonder if they always have intent and/or foresight in all cases.

Edited by Lemon Fresh Dog
Link to comment

Man/sheep, did ya really have to go there LFD?! LOL

 

I found a pathtag this wknd that was very blatantly gay (no hidden message at all), I'm from Cali, where it's a non issue, but I did have to wonder after this thread started how it would be seen if it were a trackable coin, as there are many parts of the country/world that are not so open to all walks of life.

Link to comment

My # 1 question and it may be the quirk to the whole thing.

 

Does it have to do with Geocaching?

 

I have always tried to keep my designs and coins geocaching related in someway.

I see benchmarking as a part of geocaching and it is most of what I do.

 

I like some of the ideas of others and have been traded many others.

Gifted SPECIAL coins and probably will never see all the coins there are.

 

"You can see anything you want if you look hard enough".

 

Life is like looking in a mirror you see what you reflect.

Link to comment

My # 1 question and it may be the quirk to the whole thing.

 

Does it have to do with Geocaching?

 

I have always tried to keep my designs and coins geocaching related in someway.

I see benchmarking as a part of geocaching and it is most of what I do.

 

I like some of the ideas of others and have been traded many others.

Gifted SPECIAL coins and probably will never see all the coins there are.

 

"You can see anything you want if you look hard enough".

 

Life is like looking in a mirror you see what you reflect.

 

A coin is supposed to have something to do with Geocaching? :D:D

Link to comment

Man/sheep, did ya really have to go there LFD?! LOL

 

I found a pathtag this wknd that was very blatantly gay (no hidden message at all), I'm from Cali, where it's a non issue, but I did have to wonder after this thread started how it would be seen if it were a trackable coin, as there are many parts of the country/world that are not so open to all walks of life.

 

Oh yes - that's a hot topic as well! Imagine if two young gay folk met while caching, minted a coin to celebrate their marriage and set it out as a trackable for their honeymoon? :D Maybe even "cache it up" by using a slogan like "The hidden treasure I found was holding his own GPS" :D

 

Wouldn't bother me in the least as it celebrates something I consider positive in their lives (not my cup of tea, but doesn't bother me at all).

 

Would that coin be approved? I'll go with the honest answer "I don't know"

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...