Found NGS Mark "Q 27 Reset" can't locate in database

[Reipod]

Had some time off work recently and decided to look for some benchmarks. I had the data for "Q 27" PID: PP1497. I didn't locate anything but I did stumble upon "Q 27 RESET" stamped in 1975, I logged that here:

 

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM45C6

 

If I'm reading this right it is a Vertical Control disk from the National Geodetic Survey, but I couldn't find any data sheet for this in the NGS database. Perhaps I'm not looking properly or it's not really in there.

 

Our local agencies records, Mn/DOT says this:

 

IN EAST PART OF SAINT PAUL, IN WHITE BEAR AVENUE BRIDGE 62530 OVER RAILROAD, AT EAST 1 OF 2 PILLARS, IN SOUTHEAST CORNER OF CONCRETE FOOTING, 16.6 FEET EAST OF MIDDLE OF BRIDGE, 5.2 FEET NORTH OF NORTH RAIL OF WESTBOUND RAILROAD TRACK

 

Station Notes

NEW BRIDGE, MARK DESTROYED

 

I'm assuming that since the bridge was rebuilt or repaired that they replaced the disk. When this happens do they take the 'old' disk and just re-stamp it with "RESET" to imply it's the same disk just RESET in a new position?

 

Also what does one do with something like this if indeed it's a NGS disk but not mentioned in the database with no PID to reference to report it?

 

Thanks for any insight into this matter.

[foxtrot_xray]

I'm assuming that since the bridge was rebuilt or repaired that they replaced the disk. When this happens do they take the 'old' disk and just re-stamp it with "RESET" to imply it's the same disk just RESET in a new position?

 

Also what does one do with something like this if indeed it's a NGS disk but not mentioned in the database with no PID to reference to report it?

Others here may know better than I, however my guess would be that it was stamped RESET, and re-placed into the bridge. However, due to missing or incomplete paperwork, it was not admitted back into the database by the NGS.

 

Me.

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Had some time off work recently and decided to look for some benchmarks. I had the data for "Q 27" PID: PP1497. I didn't locate anything but I did stumble upon "Q 27 RESET" stamped in 1975, I logged that here:

 

http://www.Waymarking.com/waymarks/WM45C6

 

If I'm reading this right it is a Vertical Control disk from the National Geodetic Survey, but I couldn't find any data sheet for this in the NGS database. Perhaps I'm not looking properly or it's not really in there.

 

Our local agencies records, Mn/DOT says this:

 

IN EAST PART OF SAINT PAUL, IN WHITE BEAR AVENUE BRIDGE 62530 OVER RAILROAD, AT EAST 1 OF 2 PILLARS, IN SOUTHEAST CORNER OF CONCRETE FOOTING, 16.6 FEET EAST OF MIDDLE OF BRIDGE, 5.2 FEET NORTH OF NORTH RAIL OF WESTBOUND RAILROAD TRACK

 

Station Notes

NEW BRIDGE, MARK DESTROYED

 

I'm assuming that since the bridge was rebuilt or repaired that they replaced the disk. When this happens do they take the 'old' disk and just re-stamp it with "RESET" to imply it's the same disk just RESET in a new position?

 

Also what does one do with something like this if indeed it's a NGS disk but not mentioned in the database with no PID to reference to report it?

 

Thanks for any insight into this matter.

 

Two answers but not full enlightenment:

 

1) a RESET for a vertical control mark is a new disk and a new station. It's a replacement, so-to-speak.

 

2) The process of doing the RESET involves the physical work to set a new disk, remeasure it's elevation compared to nearby stations, etc. and then fill our and submit the paperwork. I've seen RESETs that never made it into the database, sometimes because all procedures weren't follow to insure accuracy, or often because the paperwork was never filed.

 

The local DOT may have done the work (yes, NGS disks are often set by other agencies) and they may have the paperwork and they may actually use the mark for their own purposes but never filed it. Maybe someone there knows, but since it's 30+ years ago, it's probably a lost cause.

 

You were right to log it as a waymark. You will find many that are not in the database.

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

(double post)

Edited July 11, 2008 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[+m&h]

We had a similar experience a few years ago, with a mark in Wyoming PID MO0962. We no longer have the e-mail we got from Deb Brown, saying that there are several possible reasons for a RESET mark not appearing in the database.

 

We don't know what percentage of RESETs use the original disk, but we would bet that it's rather small. Coordinating the salvage of a disk with the destruction of its setting is tough for an agency with limited resources.

 

We logged our not found with NGS. We didn't feel confident that the original mark was destroyed; it could have been under the stucco-like coating of the column. So that data sheet is still available even to those who leave unchecked "Include Destroyed Marks."

 

You have already logged your find at Waymarking.com. You can also log a not found on the original mark, if that seems appropriate (if, for example, no one else has logged it not found).

 

Cheers,

[andylphoto]

 

I'm assuming that since the bridge was rebuilt or repaired that they replaced the disk. When this happens do they take the 'old' disk and just re-stamp it with "RESET" to imply it's the same disk just RESET in a new position?

 

You've already got some good answers on why this one isn't in the database. It looks as though MN-DOT has had this station marked destroyed in the NGS database already.

 

One clarification though--the reset disk you found is a reset because it was intended to replace the original station. The disk, however, is a new disk, set in 1975, and not the original 1933 disk. The original disk would have been a different style and would have been stamped 1933. The disk you photographed is definitely a 1970s era disk.

 

I've seen one instance where the original disk was re-used to reset the mark: RL1686

 

Most other resets have used a new disk, and in fact many, if not most, resets I believe are set before the original marks are destroyed.

[Z15]

I've seen one instance where the original disk was re-used to reset the mark: RL1686

 

I remember this one. I gave the project inspector a new stamped USGS disk to use (which NGS acquired from USGS and sent us) but he misplaced it in the months leading up to the concrete pour so he had the contractor save the old one and reset it. I then had to stamp (squeeze) "RESET 1989" when I did the leveling from the temp BM's to the new mark. The NGS advisor was not happy with what he did but there was not much we could do after the fact but let it be.

 

The inspector is now retired and living in Michigamme.

 

In my 30+ yrs with the DOT, I reset many BM, USGS, NGS and what not. Some were reset and the original was not destroyed (road plans changed), some we allowed others (contractor consultants) to do the work and they screwed it up, so NGS would not accept it because there were no field records or they lost the reference elevation marks. Some of the biggest problems we had with resetting BM's was getting cooperation of the contractors. We had instances where we were certain they destroyed the mark to be spiteful. One equipment operator told me he would run over everyone he seen just for the hell of it.

Edited July 11, 2008 by Z15

[Reipod]

One clarification though--the reset disk you found is a reset because it was intended to replace the original station. The disk, however, is a new disk, set in 1975, and not the original 1933 disk. The original disk would have been a different style and would have been stamped 1933. The disk you photographed is definitely a 1970s era disk.

 

Can a reset take the place of an older disk if it's in a different spot? I think the original from the MNDOT papers say it was in the southeastern corner..while this is in the southwestern corner.

 

 

Does it take it's place; even if not the same position more just as a, "Hey we got another on this bridge somewhere"? Or perhaps the original description is incorrect and it has always been in the southwestern corner.

 

Lot of good info though above, interesting to read. Thanks!

Edited July 11, 2008 by Reipod

[Bill93]

The reset may be anywhere reasonably close to the original, so a different corner of the bridge is not surprising. There are two general procedures for doing a reset of a vertical control benchmark.

 

a) If practical the best way is to set the new disk, and do leveling measurements to find the difference in height from the old to the new. Then the old one may be destroyed by whatever construction was threatening it. The data has to be taken with certain procedures and precautions and reported to NGS if it is to be given a new data sheet in their system. The order of the mark will be degraded to allow for the possible inaccuracy in the measurements.

 

If they can't set a new one right away because there is no suitable place, then they set one or more (not sure minimum number) of temporary marks that will likely survive the construction, perhaps yards away. The difference in elevation to that/those mark(s) is measured. Then after the construction is done they set the new disk and measure from the temporary to the new permanent one.

 

The reset is a replacement only in the sense that there is still an elevation reference in the neighborhood. There needs to be a new data sheet for it to give the new value.

 

edit: turn off the dar.ned smileys

Edited July 12, 2008 by Bill93

[Wintertime]

The reset may be anywhere reasonably close to the original, so a different corner of the bridge is not surprising.

The reset mark for HT1627 is about 500 feet away from the original. It's also in a sidewalk in front of a church and a medical clinic, as opposed to HT1627, which was in the base of a flagpole at a high school. Yet people keep logging it as found! Grrrrrr....

 

Patty

[andylphoto]

What Bill & Patty said. Here's a good example from a very similar situation, though the originals were in rock outcroppings, not bridges.

 

RK0458 was destroyed summer before last. It was set in a rock outcropping about 25 feet from the edge of the roadway. M-DOT has been blasting rock outcroppings back from the roadway for safety reasons. I visited this mark and several others prior to the beginning of the construction. My photograph shows the location of RK0458 (L 329) along with the location of the disk "L 329 RESET" which is located further away from the roadway. The elevation is obviously considerably different, but in this case it could be leveled against the original, and preserves a station "in the neighborhood" as Patty said. Otherwise, the nearest are a half mile or more away.

 

 

When I posted my log with the NGS (note the datasheet linked above) I knew for certain the station had been destroyed--In fact I purposely waited to log this one with the NGS until after the construction had been completed. If you look at my geocaching logs for this one, I have an "after" picture as well.

 

A couple other stations nearby had resets placed, but the originals were spared. RK0457, RK0464 and RK0460 all had resets placed nearby. My geocaching logs for the first two have photos indicating the locations of both the originals and the resets, similar to the photo posted above. For these three stations, as you can see in the photos, M-DOT elected to place guard rails rather than blast away the rock outcroppings. So the originals are still in place, along with the RESET marks that will probably never be added to the database.

 

An interesting note about the last recovery on RK0457...MDOT notes the old witness post was destroyed, which makes me grin. I was destroyed when someone cut it off with a hacksaw so it could be placed next to the RESET mark, when the original was expected to be destroyed.