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Permission Denied (Bummed-out now)


BiT
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Well, I had two locations recently that I wanted to develop as EarthCaches but was denied by the property owners. One was on an individual's private property and the other was on an energy supplier's property. Both were within 100' of a county road and a state route.

 

The location on the energy supplier's property was a very soon to be double natural arch. I wanted to illustrate the formation process and point out the second arch being formed. While the other was a very thin arch that could become a dead arch in the not so distant geological future.

 

So what locations have you discovered and then have had permission denied?

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We have a rock formation known as the Ice Mines in our area. It is on private property and I would LOVE to develop an Earthcache there. The formation holds ice nearly year round under a pile of un-glaciated rocks.

 

I never knew if anyone mined it, but it is a neat place.

 

edited for spelling

Edited by ATMouse
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I had a great tar seep on the Pacific Coast denied by the state park system. It is a locaiton published in many field guides and visited by college field trips. It is next to a developed camp ground, buildings, and lifeguard headquarters. It was a cultural resource and would cause excessive erosion. Given that this only came out when I mentioned gc.com, I don't think that was the reason.

 

The same district denied listing one that had a great example of a barrier dune system.

 

The first one I still was able to list by going down the beach to the city beach. The second may also be able to be listed using the County portion of the beach, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

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I just got turned down on a location called The Devil's Tea Table. It is a pillar/balanced rock located on private property.

 

The property owner doesn't want it published because he has enough problems the the local college kids coming to the location party. He even caught two of the college kids smoking pot around a bon fire on a Red Flag Alert day.

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I was intrigued by a set of "TAR PIT"s on a map i had found, hiked 7km through the wilderness only to find they were obviously man-made.. yuk

 

Denied not by the land owners (the town, who actually welcome people to explore the area) but simple misunderstanding of what a "TAR PIT" was! Placed a physical cache instead :)

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I had a great tar seep on the Pacific Coast denied by the state park system. It is a locaiton published in many field guides and visited by college field trips. It is next to a developed camp ground, buildings, and lifeguard headquarters. It was a cultural resource and would cause excessive erosion. Given that this only came out when I mentioned gc.com, I don't think that was the reason.

 

The same district denied listing one that had a great example of a barrier dune system.

 

The first one I still was able to list by going down the beach to the city beach. The second may also be able to be listed using the County portion of the beach, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

Terry,

 

Regarding the denial of the tar seep by the state does the public have access to that exact site currently or is it an off limits area next to the camp ground?

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I had a great tar seep on the Pacific Coast denied by the state park system. It is a locaiton published in many field guides and visited by college field trips. It is next to a developed camp ground, buildings, and lifeguard headquarters. It was a cultural resource and would cause excessive erosion. Given that this only came out when I mentioned gc.com, I don't think that was the reason.

 

The same district denied listing one that had a great example of a barrier dune system.

 

The first one I still was able to list by going down the beach to the city beach. The second may also be able to be listed using the County portion of the beach, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

Terry,

 

Regarding the denial of the tar seep by the state does the public have access to that exact site currently or is it an off limits area next to the camp ground?

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I just got turned down on a location called The Devil's Tea Table. It is a pillar/balanced rock located on private property.

 

The property owner doesn't want it published because he has enough problems the the local college kids coming to the location party. He even caught two of the college kids smoking pot around a bon fire on a Red Flag Alert day.

 

Weird, Back in West Virginia where I grew up we had a "Devil's Tea Table" that somewhat matches that description. Hundreds of "Signatures" were carved into the rocks.

 

Last time I looked, it had become fenced and posted.

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Not so much denied as not responded to by the metroparks for one at Ohio's largest living sand dunes. I would have preferred to have been denied, at least I would have gotten a response.

 

Be persistent-call, write, and email or better yet stop into the admin. office or by the Ranger Station at the park.

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My strong suggestion is to always seek permission FIRST...before you do research and write up materials. work with the land manager as you develop your EarthCache, rather than trying to get permission once you have a set idea in mind.

 

It seems to be a trend that people do all the work in writing up an EarthCache only to find that they can't get permission.

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What I usually do when I find an interesting location is do some basic preliminary research. If the site is on public access land I usually plan a visit to snap some photographs and waypoints. Heck, if I cannot get permission for listing, at least I got to visit and explore the area. This is just as fun in my book. If the location is on private property, I do the research about ownership then contact the owner for permission. I do not visit unless given permission by the property owner. In Ohio the local county auditor's office usually has an online database with geo-referenced maps. Once permission is granted, I then go into full gear doing the research and write-up. Most of the time I get permission to visit locations but not to post them as EarthCaches. To date, I have never be denied a visit after being denied listing as an EarthCache.

Edited by BiT
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Terry,

 

Regarding the denial of the tar seep by the state does the public have access to that exact site currently or is it an off limits area next to the camp ground?

Full access. No restrictions, signs, fences. Zip, zero, nothing, nada.

 

With that being the case that there are no restrictions and full access given and they allow the public to already visit the site, I would say there is implied permission because the state has encouraged people to visit it.

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...It was a cultural resource and would cause excessive erosion. Given that this only came out when I mentioned gc.com, I don't think that was the reason. ...

 

Some cultural resource locations are kept secret. Not secret as in nobody can no. Anybody can walk along and find a tar seep. Secret as in the Government can't tell you it's a resource unless you are authorized to know (That takes higher eduction, the right job, or both) or you are required to know to do your job. In my job I'm only told about the exact location I need to avoid and which I might impact if I don't but not why. Normally why is obvious. I'm not told about nearby locations I'm not impacting and not likely to impact.

 

Historical resources like buildings and such used to be treated separately from archaeological, or traditional cultural locations (a Tar Seep may have been identified by a tribe as a traditional cultural location) but there is a move (at least in my state) to keep all of that hush hush as well. Any garden variety architectural historian can write a book a point all this out to anybody. That book won't be written or supported by the NPS or the SHPO/THPO who the NPS delegates it's authority to on the issue.

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...

With that being the case that there are no restrictions and full access given and they allow the public to already visit the site, I would say there is implied permission because the state has encouraged people to visit it.

 

There is a permission for access. But the state can't advertise a cultural resource even if others can. Thus they would not be in a position to "allow" an EarthCache that clearly identifies a resource they are charged with protecting even though the public can trample all over it in ignorant bliss.

 

Locally I've seen the BLM ask that a cache be pulled because it advertised a petroglph. The public has full access to the location. The owner complied. It's this kind of relationship that lets us keep up a good working relationship with the BLM to where there are no restrictions on caches. They deal with the occasional problem that crops up.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Funny you mention that. BLM allowed me to place a EarthCache at 3 Rivers recently,(3 Rivers Petroglyph Site (GC1FE2H), New Mexico)

 

Since you frequent the EC forums, I am wondering when you gonna find or place EC?

 

 

There is a permission for access. But the state can't advertise a cultural resource even if others can. Thus they would not be in a position to "allow" an EarthCache that clearly identifies a resource they are charged with protecting even though the public can trample all over it in ignorant bliss.

 

Locally I've seen the BLM ask that a cache be pulled because it advertised a petroglph. The public has full access to the location. The owner complied. It's this kind of relationship that lets us keep up a good working relationship with the BLM to where there are no restrictions on caches. They deal with the occasional problem that crops up.

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I've only had one turned down so far, and it was disappointing. There is a location in the Baraboo Hills of southwestern Wisconsin called "Pewit's Nest." A slot canyon with stepped waterfalls of Skillet Creek, surrounded by hemlock, more typical of northern Wisconsin than here.

 

I was turned down because it's become a "party spot" that has resulted in trashing the pristine nature of the state natural area. Also because cliff divers like to use the place, and with the narrow nature of the canyon, there was one recent death as a result. The state biologist allowed that geocachers in general would not be problem users, but because of all the problem users, they are discussing closing off the site altogether.

 

I headed back down this fall to do some photography, before I can't gain access if that happens. It would be such a cool spot for an earthcache, too.

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I recently received this reply to a request to place two EarthCaches at public access fishing areas along the Maumee River from the Division of Wildlife.

 

Please be advised that earthcaching, (geocaching), is not permitted on properties owned,

 

leased, or under control of the Ohio Division of Wildlife. I refer you to Ohio Administrative

 

Code 1501:31-9-01 (A), earthcaching is not permitted on either of the properties mentioned

 

in your e-mail. If you have any questions regarding this, please feel free to contact me at

 

the Findlay District Two Wildlife Office, (419) 424-5000.

 

I've emailed back with a plea to reconsider the ban on EarthCaches.

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I recently received this reply to a request to place two EarthCaches at public access fishing areas along the Maumee River from the Division of Wildlife.

 

Please be advised that earthcaching, (geocaching), is not permitted on properties owned,

 

leased, or under control of the Ohio Division of Wildlife. I refer you to Ohio Administrative

 

Code 1501:31-9-01 (A), earthcaching is not permitted on either of the properties mentioned

 

in your e-mail. If you have any questions regarding this, please feel free to contact me at

 

the Findlay District Two Wildlife Office, (419) 424-5000.

 

I've emailed back with a plea to reconsider the ban on EarthCaches.

 

Have you went there and met them face to face? Maybe they don't understand there will not be a container left there.

Edited by joranda
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I recently received this reply to a request to place two EarthCaches at public access fishing areas along the Maumee River from the Division of Wildlife.

 

Please be advised that earthcaching, (geocaching), is not permitted on properties owned,

 

leased, or under control of the Ohio Division of Wildlife. I refer you to Ohio Administrative

 

Code 1501:31-9-01 (A), earthcaching is not permitted on either of the properties mentioned

 

in your e-mail. If you have any questions regarding this, please feel free to contact me at

 

the Findlay District Two Wildlife Office, (419) 424-5000.

 

I've emailed back with a plea to reconsider the ban on EarthCaches.

 

Hello JimmySystem: That section cited by them applies only to physical items left, and certain destructive acts. It seems they think an earthcache is the same as a regular physical geocache, so maybe what joranda mentioned would be a Good Thing. Here's the text of that particular OAC section they cited to you:

 

"(A) It shall be unlawful for any person to conceal or bury any property or to injure, remove, deface, damage, or destroy any tree, plant, lawn, embankment, decoration, poster, sign, building, fence, or artifacts on any area under agreement with and administered by or under control of the division of wildlife."

 

Grizz

=====

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Not so much denied as not responded to by the metroparks for one at Ohio's largest living sand dunes. I would have preferred to have been denied, at least I would have gotten a response.

 

As per EarthCache requirements, written permission is required. As I have noted elsewhere: I went to Wawayanda State Park Headquarters and spoke with the park administrator. She is a geocacher, and understands what an EarthCache is. She said she would get back to me in a few days with the written permission. I followed up a month later with a letter, reminding her of my visit, and that I had maintained the trail for eleven years. And that I was looking forward to working with her on the new trail blazes.

And I have not gotten so much as a response. So, I give up. Obviously, she does not intend to give the required written permission. I'm not going to harass her. I give up.

To show you one of my favorite places in the world. here is Terrace Pond.

968aee5e-4a48-4e00-8acd-8ba2534b7ba1.jpg

Bearfort Mountain consists of a series of concentric oval ridges and vales of purple puddingstone. Terrace Pond is nestled between ridges.

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