+Konnarock Kid & Marge Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Hi folks, It's me again with another ethics dilemma. Here are the facts: 1. There has been a local cacher who by their behavior has really p---d a few people off. 2. Nothing real serious but just rude comments here and there. 3. Other bad behavior was suspected but nothing proven. 3. Because of that behavior a few local cachers have chosen to delete any log on their caches by the offending cacher. 4. The caches were legitimately found but the logs were deleted as a retaliatory move against the offending cacher. Several of us got together to discuss how to deal with the offending cacher and it was suggested that we should delete any and all logs by the cacher and anyone associated with the cacher. I argued that this would simply prolong the aggravation and we would be changing the way we play the game. Ignoring the cacher would soon have the problem go away. Most chose to delete the cachers logs please believe me that the problem did not go away. What would you do? Link to comment
+ArtieD Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 If there is a signature in the cache log they found the cache. Simple. Cache owners have the ultimate right to do as they will, but it is really bad form to delete finds that actually happened just out of spite like your people are doing. If anything, it could have the effect as you said to escalate the problem. Someone could get irritated enough to start taking the cache containers themselves. Why would you do that in the first place? What is it going to prove, especially if you delete the logs of other people as well? All of this sounds rather childish. Link to comment
+ArtieD Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 (edited) Whoops...double post... Edited July 5, 2008 by Arthur & Trillian Link to comment
+Isonzo Karst Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 ...a local cacher ...has really p---d a few people off. ... Because of that behavior a few local cachers have chosen to delete any log on their caches by the offending cacher. 4. The caches were legitimately found but the logs were deleted as a retaliatory move against the offending cacher. Adding unkindness and unfairness to a bad situation isn't going to improve it. Meeting rude behavior, whatever local cacher did or said, with even ruder behavior, deleting legit logs, is the surest way to lower the general tone of caching in your area. What would I do? nothing. No comment, no log deletions nada. Link to comment
+Konnarock Kid & Marge Posted July 5, 2008 Author Share Posted July 5, 2008 If there is a signature in the cache log they found the cache. Simple. Cache owners have the ultimate right to do as they will, but it is really bad form to delete finds that actually happened just out of spite like your people are doing. If anything, it could have the effect as you said to escalate the problem. Someone could get irritated enough to start taking the cache containers themselves. Why would you do that in the first place? What is it going to prove, especially if you delete the logs of other people as well? All of this sounds rather childish. I agree but I did not win the argument. You are absolutely right about cache owners having the ultimate right do do as they will but I thought at the time that the deletions was going too far. Link to comment
+Cedar Grove Seekers Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 If the cacher didn't find the caches, then go ahead and delete the logs. Otherwise it's bad form to punish them by deleting legitimate logs. I'd say you've lowered yourself well below the offending cacher. Link to comment
+ArtieD Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 If there is a signature in the cache log they found the cache. Simple. Cache owners have the ultimate right to do as they will, but it is really bad form to delete finds that actually happened just out of spite like your people are doing. If anything, it could have the effect as you said to escalate the problem. Someone could get irritated enough to start taking the cache containers themselves. Why would you do that in the first place? What is it going to prove, especially if you delete the logs of other people as well? All of this sounds rather childish. I agree but I did not win the argument. You are absolutely right about cache owners having the ultimate right do do as they will but I thought at the time that the deletions was going too far. Does it matter if you won the argument or not? I'd be outing said cachers and taking a stand. The really evil and twisted side of me says that outing who they are will allow those who find their actions reprehensible to delete their found logs on other people's caches. However, that's my evil side and I do not let it out to play. If anything I'd stop associating myself with them. Link to comment
Dinoprophet Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 If by "rude comments" you mean offensive language in the logs, there's a case to be made. If it's something else, including negative comments about the caches, then I can't believe this is even being suggested. Besides the injustice of it, if the person in question is really as nasty as is being suggested, I would expect a lot of the caches will be missing and/or defaced soon. Link to comment
+Wadcutter Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Sounds like a bunch of grade school kids. Time to grow up. Link to comment
+briansnat Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Several of us got together to discuss how to deal with the offending cacher and it was suggested that we should delete any and all logs by the cacher and anyone associated with the cacher. This is so incredibly wrong on so many levels. Link to comment
+Windrose Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 Several of us got together to discuss how to deal with the offending cacher and it was suggested that we should delete any and all logs by the cacher and anyone associated with the cacher. So are these cachers (the ones who voted to delete the logs) the same ones that now go around destroying other people's caches (as mentioned in your other topic)? "and anyone associated with the cacher" ??????? So not only this cacher - but anyone he knows? Anyone he happens to have cached with at any time? Anyone he has spoken to at an event? I think you are all well on your way to starting/having a major caching war in your area. What will be these people's reaction when the ostracized cacher begins deleting their logs from his caches and destroying/taking their caches in retaliation? Windrose Link to comment
CoyoteRed Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I wouldn't delete legitimate logs. If someone is being rude there's nothing to say you have to find his caches. If all of the locals want to get together and do something then ignore his caches. Here's the deal. The only real security for a geocache is it's obscurity. This is primarily security from the muggle population. There is really nothing to prevent this rude cacher to get extremely irate at your actions and start picking up all of your caches. Getting into a feud with a motivated person could put a damper on area caching for a while. Link to comment
+wapahani Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I guess I don't get it. IF the person is causing an issue, why would you delete anyones logs who associates with said cacher? They aren't the issue, the cacher in question is the issue. We all have had associations that at some point we haven't been proud of. Mistakes are mistakes. As for deleting logs, why? If someone finds it, they find it, its their find. If you don't like said cacher, don't associate with them. Otherwise you cause more issues then you will want. Piss them off and caches come up missing and cachers that aren't involved pay the price wasting their time looking for a cache that isn't there. So it now moves beyond you and effects the community. Someone said "gradeschool" couldn't have said it better. PETTY is a good word too. At some point you just have to move past it and get on with things. Link to comment
+wapahani Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 (edited) ----this forum software loves to hiccup....----- HICCUP Edited July 5, 2008 by wapahani Link to comment
+Elizabeth The Great Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I think I'm very glad I don't live in your area. There must be a lot of not very nice people. Link to comment
+Markwell Posted July 5, 2008 Share Posted July 5, 2008 I have heard of very prominent cachers deleting logs of other prominent cachers just on a personality difference. I too think it's bad form. However... The cache page on Geocaching.com is not the end-all-and-be-all of geocaching in general. I have my own website that I keep track of my finds, not just for geocaching, but for two other GPS-based games I play. Geocaching.com is also not the only place for listing caches. Just because something doesn't exist (be it log or cache) on Geocaching.com doesn't make it non-existent. The owner has full rights to police logs on the cache page. If they so desire, they can also go out to the cache itself and either rip out the page or take white-out or an eraser to the offenders log. It's their right to do so. However, I have much more important things in my life to worry about than whether I personally like the person that submits a log to a cache page I created. Link to comment
+JacobBarlow Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 The only logs I'll delete, legit or not, are logs on ALR caches where the ALR is not met... Link to comment
RuideAlmeida Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 (edited) Maybe we can suggest Groundspeak to apply one more log type... such as "behaviour report", that could be used by listing owners. Edited July 7, 2008 by ruidealmeida Link to comment
+Konnarock Kid & Marge Posted July 7, 2008 Author Share Posted July 7, 2008 I think I'm very glad I don't live in your area. There must be a lot of not very nice people. Please don't think bad of the area. There are only three or four bad apples in the barrel. Most of our group are nice, friendly and ethical geocachers. Please come over here and enjoy a wide variety of caches. Link to comment
+KBI Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Deleting legitimate find logs out of spite is very very BAD, in my opinion. Such retaliation can only lead to more trouble, not less. Instead, I believe the best option by far would be to completely ignore the offender. If you really want to organize a response that is guaranteed to be effective, then I say that is what you and your buddies should do: totally ignore the problem cacher. Leave the logs as they are, forget about them and go on about enjoying the hobby. If the annoying person is attacked, he will happily attack back. You will have a war. This may even be his ultimate goal, and by retaliating you will only be helping him to reach that goal. If the annoying person is instead completely ignored, then he will soon go away and look for someone else who is easier to bother. Give him what he obviously wants – a conflict – and he will happily stay. Deny him that fight, however, and your problem will simply wither and die on the vine. Link to comment
+KBI Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I think I'm very glad I don't live in your area. There must be a lot of not very nice people. Please don't think bad of the area. There are only three or four bad apples in the barrel. Most of our group are nice, friendly and ethical geocachers. Please come over here and enjoy a wide variety of caches. I can vouch for that. I've cached in western Virginia and NE Tennessee over the years, and have always had a great experience. I even own a cache that is just over the hill from Konnarock, which many locals -- including the Kid and Marge -- have logged with friendly logs. It's a very nice area. Good folks all, from what I've seen. Link to comment
knowschad Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Leave the logs as a testiment to the cacher's sour personality. The caching community will catch on soon enough. Deleting the logs at best simply lowers the cache owner to the cacher's own level, and at worse could escalate matters. Link to comment
+StarBrand Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Although I admit to doing in the distant past - over an ALR cache - debates here in the forums changed my mind and I would never do that again. If they found the cache - they get to log a find - no matter how I feel about them or what they say in thier log comments. Link to comment
+Runaround Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 So Bristol is the home of petty and vindictive cache owners? I'll scratch that off the vacation list. Link to comment
+bone shaker Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I think I'm very glad I don't live in your area. There must be a lot of not very nice people. I am from the mentioned area. If you would come to our area, you will find the most hospitable people around! The statement really hurt me. Link to comment
+KBI Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 So Bristol is the home of petty and vindictive cache owners? So you prefer to believe the negative posts in this thread over the positive ones? I'll scratch that off the vacation list. Good. The area is absolutely beautiful and full of good folks, but it's becoming crowded enough as it is. Um, I mean, yes -- it's a HORRIBLE place! Tell your friends! Link to comment
+bone shaker Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 So Bristol is the home of petty and vindictive cache owners? I'll scratch that off the vacation list. again... the tri-cities is a wonderful place! Link to comment
+WeeWillie Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 If his logs are that offensive, then contact Groundspeak. They have a vested interest in avoiding member conflicts. Link to comment
+nekom Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Of course as the cache owner it's entirely up to you, but since you asked for opinions, I have never deleted a log, and my policy is that I wouldn't unless it was harassing, or in some way counter to the Groundspeak guidelines. Link to comment
Skippermark Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I agree but I did not win the argument. You are absolutely right about cache owners having the ultimate right do do as they will but I thought at the time that the deletions was going too far. No one can force you to delete logs on caches that you own. If you feel that deleting them is going too far, then don't delete them. Stand up for what you believe and what you feel is right. Link to comment
+ComputerCacheBug Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 (edited) You claim that you are all nice people to know, but yet are acting just as childish as the person you are deleting logs. You don't even agree with their decision yet you went and joined them in on their decission. You won't win any arguement against the person and now the person has now gasoline for his fire as you have now deleted legitamate finds, and it wouldn't be surprising that since you deleted their log that the person deletes your cache. If his logs are "offensive" give an example. Bleep out any curse owrds of course. But make sure they are in fact offensive. and not an overreaction to criticism. And again instead of deleting them contact TPTB here at GC.com and let them take care of the issue. Edited July 7, 2008 by ComputerCacheBug Link to comment
jholly Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 So let me understand this. There is a person your not very fond of finding your caches, signing the logs and then logs the find on the cache page. You decide you don't like the person, and some of the people he knows who also logs your caches. You delete their logs. You have friends that do the same thing. I think it won't be long before you and your friends start suffering a bad case of missing caches, and there won't be a thing you can do about it. Jim Link to comment
+heebinator Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I think I'm very glad I don't live in your area. There must be a lot of not very nice people. 99.5% of people in this area are fantastic. Just a small handful of goobers. Link to comment
+heebinator Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 (edited) Double post, sorry! Edited July 7, 2008 by heebinator Link to comment
+J-Way Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 I think I'm very glad I don't live in your area. There must be a lot of not very nice people. 99.5% of people in this area are fantastic. Just a small handful of goobers. I'm gonna be up there (Johnson City) later this week, and was planing to grab a cache or two. I just hope I don't caught in the crossfire of a cache war. Thrown ammo cans can really hurt, and getting hit by rotten apples and goobers is never pleasant. Even worse, I'd hate to waste limited time looking for caches that were stolen by a vindictive cacher. Link to comment
+Harry Dolphin Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Ah. What would cause me to delete a posibly valid find? (Cacher in question is known for drive-bys, but I don't have the log to she that she wasn't there...) It would take an awful lot. I've have two valid logs deleted. One for 'not saying nice things in my log'. The other for pointing out that the coordinates were 170 feet off. I have relogged them with SLTNLN. Guess that's enough for some people. I have no qualms about deleting invalid finds. "Found cache. Didn't bother signing the log." TBSS. What did this person do to irritate me so much? One of my TBs wants to see the world. After three years, the TB finally left the US and made it to Europe! She brought it back to the US, and put it in her cache event! Where it has been languishing for almost a month. Along with sixteen other tavel bugs. Hey! The event was almost a month ago! Archive the darned thing. And if you are too lazy to keep track of what happens to the TBS you dropped there, then mark them missing. (Better, of course, is not to do that to TBs.) But, some people are numbers hos, and have no consideration for anyone else. That being said, I will gain some glee from contemplating deleting the probable drive by log on one of my caches. And I will mourn the loss of my TB who is now dead due to this cacher's complete lack of consideration for others. But I will not delete her probable invalid log on one of my caches. Just enjoy considering it. Which is what the OP should do. Ignore the idiots, no matter how anoying they are. Rise above their level. curse them, but ignore them. Looking at a series of caches, a few miles off. I'll be nearby a couple of them soon. Curious. All of this cacher's caches seem to have disappeared. One by one. Albeit, this cacher seems to push the envelope, and, perhaps, have annoyed a few people, but for all of his caches to disappear, one by one, seems deliberate on someone's part. After deactivating five or more, he seems to have given up. Moral: Malicious thoughts are one thing (and, sometimes, satisfying). Malicious actions, on the other fin, are a different story, and completely unacceptable. Link to comment
+Konnarock Kid & Marge Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 So let me understand this. There is a person your not very fond of finding your caches, signing the logs and then logs the find on the cache page. You decide you don't like the person, and some of the people he knows who also logs your caches. You delete their logs. You have friends that do the same thing. I think it won't be long before you and your friends start suffering a bad case of missing caches, and there won't be a thing you can do about it. Jim Jim, I certainly hope it doesn't come to that although some have accused others of doing exactly what you said could happen. I want to thank you folks for responding. Yes, I wasn't talking about some hypothetical but actual occurrences in our area. Don't get me wrong, 99.99999% of the cachers in our area are super people. There are only a few who reserve the right to retaliate for what they 'perceive' as bad caching behavior. Groundspeak has given us all some very common sense oriented rules/guidelines for geocaching. With all of their experience and thoughtfulness, even Groundspeak cannot set down rules that should automatically accepted by most fun loving geocachers. Why should they? Most of us know right from wrong. Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 I think I'm very glad I don't live in your area. There must be a lot of not very nice people. 99.5% of people in this area are fantastic. Just a small handful of goobers. I'm gonna be up there (Johnson City) later this week, and was planing to grab a cache or two. I just hope I don't caught in the crossfire of a cache war. Thrown ammo cans can really hurt, and getting hit by rotten apples and goobers is never pleasant. Even worse, I'd hate to waste limited time looking for caches that were stolen by a vindictive cacher. This situation is kind of well known (heck, I'm from 500 miles away, and I've heard of it), and if I'm not mistaken, it's been going on a rather long time. So who are we saying are the Goobers? The one person who gets all his logs deleted, or him and the cache owners that delete all his logs? Link to comment
+KBI Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 So who are we saying are the Goobers? He said "getting hit by rotten apples and goobers is never pleasant." Based on that context I assumed "goobers" meant peanuts. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Is it me, or is this the best drama of 2008 so far? I'm nominating it for an Emmy. Or an Oscar. Or whatever award goes to the Best Text-Based Daytime Drama. Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) So who are we saying are the Goobers? He said "getting hit by rotten apples and goobers is never pleasant." Based on that context I assumed "goobers" meant peanuts. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Is it me, or is this the best drama of 2008 so far? I'm nominating it for an Emmy. Or an Oscar. Or whatever award goes to the Best Text-Based Daytime Drama. Oh, I quoted the wrong post. I actually hadn't read to much of the other thread, but now I have. If geocaching is around for 1,000 years, it would be tough to top this drama. I'd be deleting people's find logs too. Just kidding. Edited July 8, 2008 by TheWhiteUrkel Link to comment
+TheAlabamaRambler Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Is it me, or is this the best drama of 2008 so far? I'm nominating it for an Emmy. Or an Oscar. Or whatever award goes to the Best Text-Based Daytime Drama. Some Drama Queens involved, for sure. I know many of the folks on both sides of this war and can only say that I am sad to see it continued and sadder to see it brought here to our public forum. No one will win, everyone will look bad, and even caching in the area is now being called into question. Give it up folks! As far as the OP's question, you know without asking that deleting legitimate logs over personal issues is pathetic. Link to comment
+Konnarock Kid & Marge Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 Is it me, or is this the best drama of 2008 so far? I'm nominating it for an Emmy. Or an Oscar. Or whatever award goes to the Best Text-Based Daytime Drama. Some Drama Queens involved, for sure. I know many of the folks on both sides of this war and can only say that I am sad to see it continued and sadder to see it brought here to our public forum. No one will win, everyone will look bad, and even caching in the area is now being called into question. Give it up folks! As far as the OP's question, you know without asking that deleting legitimate logs over personal issues is pathetic. You are wise and I am more than willing to give it up. I agree with everything that you have said. I have contributed to the drama . I only wanted to get other people's opinions regarding deleting legit cache logs since those acts have kept a long simmering war going. Yes, there were some ill feelings way in the past but the deletions only served to prolong the conflict and force others to take sides. I think I can summarize all of the responses into, yes it is the owner's right to control their caches and if necessary delete false or nasty logs but it is truly bad form to delete legit logs. Thanks everyone. Link to comment
Skippermark Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) I hope this works out well for all involved. Edited July 8, 2008 by Skippermark Link to comment
+J-Way Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 (edited) Quote from a cache page south of Johnson City: Due to the way some cachers have chosen to play this game: ANY finds you log on ANY cache are at the discretion of the cache owner. The Cache Owner reserves the right to delete ANY log for ANY reason. This really makes me want to go out of my way to find this cache... [Edit: fixed city name] Edited July 8, 2008 by J-Way Link to comment
+Konnarock Kid & Marge Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 I hope this works out well for all involved. Thanks. Link to comment
+Konnarock Kid & Marge Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 Quote from a cache page south of Johnson City: Due to the way some cachers have chosen to play this game: ANY finds you log on ANY cache are at the discretion of the cache owner. The Cache Owner reserves the right to delete ANY log for ANY reason. This really makes me want to go out of my way to find this cache... [Edit: fixed city name] You are good. Yep, what you found is an example to show that legit cache logs could and would be deleted by the owner. That was one of the by products of the deletion mania. It really shows us in a good light doesn't it? Most did not put the offensive note on their cache pages and very few joined the deletion fest! Honestly folks, we are good, fun loving people who reject this kind of behavior. thanks. Link to comment
Mr.Yuck Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Quote from a cache page south of Johnson City: Due to the way some cachers have chosen to play this game: ANY finds you log on ANY cache are at the discretion of the cache owner. The Cache Owner reserves the right to delete ANY log for ANY reason. This really makes me want to go out of my way to find this cache... [Edit: fixed city name] You are good. Yep, what you found is an example to show that legit cache logs could and would be deleted by the owner. That was one of the by products of the deletion mania. It really shows us in a good light doesn't it? Most did not put the offensive note on their cache pages and very few joined the deletion fest! Honestly folks, we are good, fun loving people who reject this kind of behavior. thanks. How many cache owners delete this guy's logs? I've actually seen him talk about it in a local geocaching forum (outside of his region). Link to comment
+Konnarock Kid & Marge Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 Thanks everyone. I think enough is enough and request this thread also be locked. Thanks. Link to comment
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