+AtwellFamily Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I am a bit confused... If there is a coin that is made and people have a difficult time gettig what they reserved or paid for than that is discussed here. But on the flit side if I have a difficult time getting what I asked for or paid for from a designer, that can not be discussed here? Why couldn't that as long as it remains a civil conversation like this thread. For example; If I were to say that I had contacted a design and for months and months they did little to no work for me while producing other coins and designs. I spoke to them via email and chat more than one time and still got reasons for delay. I can't say that and mention the designer by name in this forum? I think we shuld be able to as long as it remains civil. They all come in here and would have a chance to comment just like coin producers do when people complain about a coin. Quote Link to comment
+Mama Cache Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 For an Easy and over simplified first step...lets all agree and tell all our freinds that ask about coin design to not pay for artwork until it is done? The consumer can set the policy. Worse case prepaying should only be half at start and final at approval. Quote Link to comment
+fox-and-the-hound Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 For an Easy and over simplified first step...lets all agree and tell all our freinds that ask about coin design to not pay for artwork until it is done? The consumer can set the policy. Worse case prepaying should only be half at start and final at approval. This is an important step for every business transaction. In most cases with any contract work, it's 1/3rd downpayment when agreement is made, 1/3rd payment when rough draft is approved and final payment when final blueprint is approved. This should go for your local carpenter/plumber/roofer/etc. as well. The idea of a rating system is fair I think. However, it needs to be based on facts. Therein lies a tougher nut to crack. There are sometimes unrealistic expectations from the consumer that can not be met by any designer and that needs to be taken into consideration as well. I can't recall how many thousands of times I've had to tell a client that they couldn't have the bible on a grain of rice for the price they were willing to pay. Not to mention that we're talking about artists. People known for having a bit of pride in their work and not willing to budge for more adjustments when the work no longer appeals to them. Personally, I will walk from a project when unrealistic demands threaten to destroy good work. I'd rather lose the money than put my name on something I'm unhappy with. So a rating system, hypothetically, should be based on factual information as well as opinion. 1) Payment System - how is payment accepted/expected/handled 2) Timing (this should be concrete agreement for a set number of business days for rough, comprehensive and final design) 3) Contact - how easy was it to converse with a designer 4) Quality of Design - Is it what you hoped for? More? Less? Did it translate at the mint? 5) Professionalism - overall impression left from experience 6) Follow up - did the artist make necessary adjustments after mint blueprints were received (if needed)? do they charge for adjustments? how long to make adjustments? I'm sure there are other things that might be added, but it needs to be based on reality. Not the irate customer who was told they couldn't have a panda playing a banjo, eating a banana, running down a mountain in 72 colors and full 3d Quote Link to comment
ParentsofSAM Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 It almost seems like GS wants the cake and eat it too. They do not want to be liable for transactions or dealings but they do not allow for truthful situations to come to light on the forums. That is putting them in a position of censoring community transactions and dealings. If they do not want to be liable then they should not pick and choose what is brought to the forums, they should only moderate that the threads stay civil and on topic. Just from this thread it is clear that several people have been taken advantage of from vendors/designers in this community. It would help everyone to have this information out. Quote Link to comment
RedShoesGirl Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 It almost seems like GS wants the cake and eat it too. They do not want to be liable for transactions or dealings but they do not allow for truthful situations to come to light on the forums. That is putting them in a position of censoring community transactions and dealings. If they do not want to be liable then they should not pick and choose what is brought to the forums, they should only moderate that the threads stay civil and on topic. Just from this thread it is clear that several people have been taken advantage of from vendors/designers in this community. It would help everyone to have this information out. agree! it would also help if the designer/designers in question, and you can bet they know who they are, start refunding the money they stole by not providing the services paid for. that sounds pretty simple to me. rsg Quote Link to comment
Flying Spaghetti Monster Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I had a lot of posts quoted to respond to, but by the time I got to the end, most of them had been responded to by other community members. What I can say is that there will not be a rating system put in place - for many reasons that most of you have either discussed already or can figure out. And no, Groundspeak is not trying to have their cake and eat it too. Please remember that even though the internet never sleeps, the people who run these boards, moderate, and make the ultimate decisions do so things don't happen in "real time" 100% of the time. I commend everybody for staying civil and discussing what could be a very hot topic in a controlled and respectful manner. Quote Link to comment
CinemaBoxers Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I've decided to make one reply - but only one. When I'm working on a design, it sometimes takes me a short time if I have the concept figured out, and other times, I have a hard time conceptualizing an idea - and in those cases - I just can NOT get a final design figured out and finished until I have it finalized in my head. I don't believe in sending a customer a medicore, half-baked concept. I like to have a polished final idea before I send something to a customer, and if I'm not happy with art, Im very negative about it. Several of the coins I've worked, or have been working on have been ones that I just have not been at all pleased with the concept, or the drafts I began. (One in particular was 99% finished when a VERY similar concept came out, and made me scrap the idea for the customers coin, and entirely rethink it - which set me back quite a bit.) I would NEVER intentionally, EVER mislead, or not provide something that someone paid for - its a matter of the creative process taking longer than I would like it to. This is why I stopped taking personal coin design jobs over 6 months ago, as I really was finding it hard to work and conceptualize someone elses concept. My own ideas usually come to me easily - but when someone says "Do this, I want this, like this" I have a VERY hard time being as creative when given strict directions to follow. The burden of trying to come up with ideas that fit within a guideline, yet satisfied my own sense of 'I love this design' was getting to be a LOT to deal with. I find myself unhappy with much of my work where Im given too many guidelines, and no freedom. (And often Im not provided with any Guidance at all - which makes it hard in some cases!) Now, I've worked and completed many designs - and people have been very happy with the job Ive done. I think I do lovely work, but when Im in a timeframe I indeed have a tough time completing a design, and being happy with it. And I think I have a VERY hard time providing a design I am unhappy with. I would hope all of you who know me know that I would NEVER take advantage of ANYONE. I'm not comfortable with being talked badly about when most issues are coming from misunderstandings. We are always prompt with shipping out coins we sell - we want people to be happy. Sometimes, life gets in the way and I run out of time. However - we have enough friends who know that we are NOT dishonest people, nor would I ever take advantage of a friend, or anyone for that matter. Those of you who know me well have likely noticed we have not been online as much, and have been very busy here at home, but, that aside - I would be HAPPY to make things right with anyone - I love working with people, and I enjoy the community. We know many of you very well, and many of you are great friends to us. I love designing coins - its something I thoroughly love, and the people are a big part of why I enjoy it so much. I have already sent refunds to several people who I have began work for - and want all of my customers to be very happy ones. I am in the process of wrapping up 3 more personal coins (All of which will be very special ones) - and after that, I will not be designing any further personal coin concepts with very FEW exceptions. I just don't have the extra time, and can't set a 'static' timeframe to have a finished concept - because sometimes I just dont know how long it will take for that final 'inspiration' to come. I will be designing my usual coins - from ideas I've come up with - so watch for those. But, I dont want anyone else waiting, or disappointed - because I simply cannot provide a set or static timeframe - so personal coin designs will NOT be something I provide - unless, as I said, there is a special circumstance. Again, unhappy people is NOT something I want to see. I dislike negativity as a whole - and try to avoid it at all costs. I try very hard to come up with unique ideas, and new concepts - but sometimes those take time. (Sometimes alot more than even I can plan for.) My goal is to come up with unique coins, that stand out in design, quality, and execution - I know many of you love them, and collect them, and I design them for those people who let me know they enjoy the work I do. So - if I can be allowed to get back to making people happy through my work, and make sure everyone is taken care of, and pleased - I'd appreciate that. ~P Quote Link to comment
+fox-and-the-hound Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 What I can say is that there will not be a rating system put in place... I assume you're speaking only for this website/forum? Quote Link to comment
Flying Spaghetti Monster Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 What I can say is that there will not be a rating system put in place... I assume you're speaking only for this website/forum? Yes, that's as far as my noodly appendages reach in terms of "authority". Quote Link to comment
+The Moop Along Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) I've decided to make one reply - but only one. Then you probably should have stayed remotely on topic, how to properly pick a coin designer. And how to learn feedback about the multitude of coin designers out there. Not a story of your feelings on how you design coins. TMA edit to add link for thread on where to come clean: Discussion on lack of response Edited July 2, 2008 by The Moop Along Quote Link to comment
+Eartha Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 What I can say is that there will not be a rating system put in place... I assume you're speaking only for this website/forum? Yes, of course only for this website. We don't have control over any other websites, anywhere, anytime. Quote Link to comment
+fox-and-the-hound Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 What I can say is that there will not be a rating system put in place... I assume you're speaking only for this website/forum? Yes, that's as far as my noodly appendages reach in terms of "authority". I'm hearin' you Quote Link to comment
+The Moop Along Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) two edit to add the text that got deleted from the sentence above. **Hopefully there are a few things that get straightened out from the ideas posted in this thread, since at least two of them are pretty sharp** Edited July 2, 2008 by The Moop Along Quote Link to comment
+dflye Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 Rather than having a ranking system based upon the somewhat skewed and subjective opinion of vocal (and either irate or euphoric) coines, how about a system based upon simple raw facts: A list of coins designed by a particular designer / mint combination, with details on the time spent at each step of the process from start to finish (my brief synopsis of getting a coin out the door may or may not reflect anyone's reality... ) from initial contact to "agreement to work" to draft art to mint art to proof coin to coin in hand Plus throw in the total time spent in design, total time spent in mint, and grand total of time from "a-ha!" until "clink!" Stick that in a spreadsheet, and sort by the part of the process that you're worried about the most. Quote Link to comment
ParentsofSAM Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I am glad the other thread was re-opened. If we are allowed to discuss our experiences with geocoin businesses on the forums then we do not need an additional "feedback system" the threads and discussions will stand up on their own. Hopefully future civil discussions will be allowed to take place. (Ideally such situations would not arise in the future, but we all know how the world works...) I am glad to see that there may be some resolution to one of the issues and I hope that any other geocoin businesses that have legitimate issues follow suit like Geocoin Design and start to resolve them. Quote Link to comment
Flying Spaghetti Monster Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 (edited) Everybody stay on topic please. Closing a thread is the last option. The first is kicking people out of it and suspending posting rights. Please don't make us do either - the conversation was going just fine until now. Edited July 2, 2008 by Flying Spaghetti Monster Quote Link to comment
RedShoesGirl Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 when choosing a commercial designer, make sure they can work on deadline and not as inspiration hits otherwise you may be waiting a long long time. the mark of a true professional is to be able to do the job, on time, and on budget AND be creative at the same time. that means any of us that make money from creative endeavors must be able to produce the product when the client wants it. pro photographers, writers, graphic designers, painters etc all understand this very important step in becoming a professional. otherwise one is just a talented amateur who dabbles. and don't pay for the design until you get it! i know that has been said before, but it needs repeating. rsg Quote Link to comment
Hogwild Stuff Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I am glad the other thread was re-opened. If we are allowed to discuss our experiences with geocoin businesses on the forums then we do not need an additional "feedback system" the threads and discussions will stand up on their own. Hopefully future civil discussions will be allowed to take place. (Ideally such situations would not arise in the future, but we all know how the world works...) I am glad to see that there may be some resolution to one of the issues and I hope that any other geocoin businesses that have legitimate issues follow suit like Geocoin Design and start to resolve them. Agreed and thanks to moderators for reopening it. By reopening it, it has given the artist a chance to respond which is a good thing. Quote Link to comment
+LadyBee4T Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 When I take my ideas to a coin designer and pay for them to be brought to life I expect the work to be done to my satisfaction--after all it is my dollar and the customer is always right. If that can’t be done in a timely fashion or the designer feels they can’t finish for whatever reason I would like to know that up front. We have a contract and I would expect both to hold up their end. If the designer can’t hold up their end of the contract I expect a full refund. Again in a timely fashion. What I have read here I really am not surprised at. It seems to me it boils down to poor business practices and business ethics. If this is happening repeatedly then I want to know which company it is so that I can avoid them. I am also confused …The way this forum is set up we can talk about a coin that the money was taken for and never received but not about the actual design for that coin that was never completed. I don’t want a whispering campaign anymore than anyone else but a SHOUTING one. Quote Link to comment
YemonYime Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 It's healthy and wise to allow open (and civil) discussion over such concerns, since services and products are so often promoted here. Anyone who chooses to use this forum as a means to promote their "business" should be prepared to stand trial in the court of public opinion. Live by the forums, die by the forums. Quote Link to comment
Flying Spaghetti Monster Posted July 2, 2008 Share Posted July 2, 2008 I am also confused …The way this forum is set up we can talk about a coin that the money was taken for and never received but not about the actual design for that coin that was never completed. I don’t want a whispering campaign anymore than anyone else but a SHOUTING one. Did you notice that the other thread was re-opened? Quote Link to comment
+nielsenc Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Now if it had been a company made up of a large staff who could absorb sick days and bereavement leave and the like, then I wouldn't be as forgiving, but when it is one or two people who work from home with other responsibilities, then I cut them some slack. I dont think there are any 'large' staffs of people who work on Geocoins today. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 ...So what are your thoughts? Has it come time to have a place to go to get honest information about the people we are dealing with? A few thoughts. The business side is about the same. Good customer service is important since you are the customer. Coin makers and Coin artists are different things. A good coin maker may have access to artists but the skill that keeps you happy in the process of getting your coin made are different than the ones for an artist. Communications. Coin artists are another thing. Coin makers can have them on staff, or access to them. However if they interface with the artist you are missing out. When it comes to an artist, you can't overlook the "business" side, but what you really need to look for is an artist who's style of work is a close match for what you have in mind. I'm not talking the style of work they do for others so much as the style they do when they do things on their own. What they do on their own and how it fits with your own idea is the part you are missing out on if the coin maker does the interfacing for you. Case in point. I have an idea for a Celtic Coin. I have seen Fox & The Hounds personal coin. Their own coin is a perfect match for the style that I'd want on that Celtic Coin. Odds are I'll never do that coin, but the dots have been connected and if I do they will be my artist of choice to flesh out my stick figure sketch. For a rating system, you could rate the business side, but the art site is a suite to taste thing. Ratings would not work nearly as well as access to completed works so you could find your match. Quote Link to comment
+DresselDragons Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 For a rating system, you could rate the business side, but the art site is a suite to taste thing. Ratings would not work nearly as well as access to completed works so you could find your match. Agreed...what people like and don't like in regards to a design are very subjective. However, a rating system that includes things like timely communication, responsiveness to change requests, meeting client deadlines, etc. Quote Link to comment
YemonYime Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 Many, many good points in this thread, but there's never going to be a better gauge of quality and character than word of mouth. As we can all see with recent revelations, certain matters that were happening under the surface would probably not have been made so poignantly evident if not for word of mouth. Let's be realistic...opinions gather in groups here. People tend to believe and stick with who they like, so a rating system runs the risk of becoming a popularity contest or a series of "shameless bumps" by cronies. I've done it, you've done it, they've done it. We're all part of the machine. I'd simply suggest that if you're curious about how someone is to work with, take a look at their various personal coin designs and contact those cachers directly for their opinions and/or stories about how the process went. Nothing like hearing the facts from the horse's mouth. Quote Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 ....4) Quality of Design - Is it what you hoped for? More? Less? Did it translate at the mint?... That's a tough one. My first coin I provided the exact art that I wanted and the mint flubbed it up time and again. Even more amazing I had a sample coin in my hands that showed it could be done as intended. There are constraints that a good artist would know on what the mint can and can't do. However it can be tough when the mint itself can't figure it out. That's not really a reflection on the artist. Quote Link to comment
+grodan & fiabus Posted July 3, 2008 Share Posted July 3, 2008 When I was about to get my coin done I spoke to a cacher/coiner friend who recently had their coin done by this vendor. They were very pleased with how everything was handled so I let that vendor take care of my coin too. Quick, easy and really good work done from a picture and my notes. A set price and nothing to pay before the design was ready to send to the mint. So for me it was easy to pick a coin designer. grodan Karin Quote Link to comment
+avroair Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 So do I, would like to see rogue traders added in there too ! Yeah rebel scum! No more excuses like: "“..but I was going to go to Tashi Station and pick up some power converters.” Sure you were buddy! I think some of this is going to be subjective, hence the reason I try not to design coins for other people. Quote Link to comment
+fox-and-the-hound Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 ....4) Quality of Design - Is it what you hoped for? More? Less? Did it translate at the mint?... That's a tough one. My first coin I provided the exact art that I wanted and the mint flubbed it up time and again. Even more amazing I had a sample coin in my hands that showed it could be done as intended. There are constraints that a good artist would know on what the mint can and can't do. However it can be tough when the mint itself can't figure it out. That's not really a reflection on the artist. This is actually a very important point that you picked up on. Many people make the assumption that the artist will automatically send art to the mint and act as a middle-man for you in production. That is not the case many of the times. I design the coins, but I'm not a production house. I'm happy to give recommendations for a production company however. I provide you with art that should translate at the mint based on previous successes/failures and will work with you to provide follow-up. Knowing what works and doesn't work once it leaves my desktop to yours should definitely be reflective of my skill (or lack of) as a coin artist. An artist needs to provide art that can be understood as clearly as possible to prevent problems during the production stages at the minters. The easier our art translates, the less likely that problems will arise (or at least fewer if they do). Quote Link to comment
+Landsharkz Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 We design and produce so we see this from both sides compared to folks who design but don't produce or produce but don't design... lost you yet? A couple of points - 1. We have designed some unique coins that folks want to duplicate some features of, on their personal coins. They take the advise to look at the coins you enjoy most and so they come to us to design and produce their personal coin. So far so good. You'd think that our coins would speak for our track record with design and production. We have recently run into an issue at the mint where they're telling us that they can't do something that they did seemingly fine once or twice before. They're telling us that 'there was much loss, so the factory doesn't want to do this again'. For example - we are experiencing this with glitter or translucent used more than once on a coin and not together. We have made coins with many glitters (Tennessee Jed) and coins with many translucents together (our Gecko), but when we tried to duplicate the clustered translucents recently we were told 'No'. Our client was none too impressed because she had seen the Gecko and figured that we could do that again (as did we). The factory has occasionally tried something and succeeded but then when asked to do it again, they say 'No'. 2. Did it translate at the mint? Occasionally we receive really nice finished art to take to the factory to produce, but it contains many elements which are not re-produceable in metal the way it has been drawn. If you are working with a designer who doesn't take the coin art through to final coin production, be open to the fact that there may need to be adjustments and edits once the die art is underway. Better yet, ask them to send the draft to the production company you're going to use for 'production feedback' before they put hours and hours into the final design. We have received fabulous coin art and when we look it over we need to send it back to the designer for edits before we can send it for die art. Other times we've received coin art to produce (that someone paid for) and we end up re-drawing an entire coin side so that it can actually be created. We can't do this for free even though they thought they'd paid for art already. The person who paid the artist thought they were getting art that was ready to go to the mint, but unfortunately we had to advise them otherwise. 3. Timelines. Be really clear if you have a date in mind for when you want your finished coins in your hand and make sure to ask the designer and production company if your timeline is realistic within their client load. We are now asking for people's timeline but we haven't been up until now. We are now working on coins for the fall/winter . 4. Expect to pay a deposit and sign a quote . A good designer/producer has a lot of work happening at once and they have bills to pay. They cannot be expected to spend hours designing/producing a coin on spec. for you. We have a few repeat clients that we now invoice much later into the project, but if you're new, expect to sign a quote detailing all that has been agreed upon and expect to send a deposit to secure a company's services. The quote should outline the specifics about you (demographics), the coin, design, trackable?, icon?, quantities, etc. Our quotes are specific but vague, to allow for changes to metals and colours once the sample coins have been received. It's NOT a good idea to come with a list of how many coins you want in each metal before the coin is even designed. We encourage you to see the samples and then decide on which metal finishes and final paint colours you would like. Bottom line - you should always ask to sign a quote so you know what they think they are designing/producing for you. A quote clarifies details for both parties and gives you some security and peace of mind about the commitment on both sides of the agreement . 5. Don't micro-manage your coin design. I've seen way too many great concept ideas and designs take a nose dive when the client started editing the design composition beyond what is reasonable . You hire a professional because you like their work so let them do their job . Occasionally someone comes to us and says that they love our coins and so they want us to design their coin for them and then they give us their design and tell us how to design it down to every last line thickness and curve. You're not getting our best work when you do this. We should walk away from these jobs, but usually we're too far into it at that point . 6. If we advise you that it's not going to look good for some reason, listen . See note 5 about hiring a professional and letting them do their job. We (that's a collective 'we') are putting our names behind your coins and we want them to look as good as you do! Quote Link to comment
+avroair Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 but when it is one or two people who work from home with other responsibilities, then I cut them some slack. And that is just the problem, would you cut a plumber some slack if they decided not to come to your house that very day (and your toilet is dirty and overflowing? ) ... probably not, you would find another plumber quickly! The same ethics and decisions apply since making a geocoin is a business transaction. How people conduct themselves is important in determining who you should get to design your coin. That's how I would pick a coin designer. Quote Link to comment
+Landsharkz Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 but when it is one or two people who work from home with other responsibilities, then I cut them some slack. And that is just the problem, would you cut a plumber some slack if they decided not to come to your house that very day (and your toilet is dirty and overflowing? ) ... probably not, you would find another plumber quickly! The same ethics and decisions apply since making a geocoin is a business transaction. How people conduct themselves is important in determining who you should get to design your coin. That's how I would pick a coin designer. Yes, many business professionals have home offices and other than being sick or on vacation you/we need to conduct ourselves professionally and be as accountable as any other business. We have referred people to other design and production companies if our wait-list is long and the prospective client wants to get started right away. Some folks are ok waiting for a few weeks, but others want their project completed by a certain date or event. If we know we can't accommodate them, we tell them up front, and we suggest a couple of colleagues they could contact. Don't hesitate to ask for a referral or a reference from the folks who are doing the work too. Quote Link to comment
+avroair Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 but when it is one or two people who work from home with other responsibilities, then I cut them some slack. And that is just the problem, would you cut a plumber some slack if they decided not to come to your house that very day (and your toilet is dirty and overflowing? ) ... probably not, you would find another plumber quickly! The same ethics and decisions apply since making a geocoin is a business transaction. How people conduct themselves is important in determining who you should get to design your coin. That's how I would pick a coin designer. Yes, many business professionals have home offices and other than being sick or on vacation you/we need to conduct ourselves professionally and be as accountable as any other business. We have referred people to other design and production companies if our wait-list is long and the prospective client wants to get started right away. Some folks are ok waiting for a few weeks, but others want their project completed by a certain date or event. If we know we can't accommodate them, we tell them up front, and we suggest a couple of colleagues they could contact. Don't hesitate to ask for a referral or a reference from the folks who are doing the work too. Thanks for the plug! Quote Link to comment
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