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Admitted cache pirates


The Jester

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We know what organization these folks are from. It sounds like we know their specific chapter and we also know when they are meeting.

 

It might be fun to get some geocachers to pay a visit to their chapter meeting. I'm sure that most of the members would not approve of what this guy is doing. Calling him out in front of his peers may be a viable solution to this problem.

 

I'm game.. Beats sitting in front of the TV watching Hell's Kitchen and eating potato chips.

Let's not try that right now. For a couple of reasons - first, we don't know who he/she is for sure. Second, there are five grottos that he/she could be a member of. Third, I'm working with a NSS ombudsmen (also a board member) to try and rectify the situation, I'd like to see how that works out before adding any more fuel to the flames.

 

Now, having a small group of cachers attend one (or more) of their meetings - not to call anyone out, but to exchange information so this sort of thing doesn't happen again - that could be a productive idea. Mutual understanding will go a lot farther to keeping the peace than slapping down a "rogue" member - even if in the short term that might feel good. (My, how I've mellowed in the last few days!)

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We know what organization these folks are from. It sounds like we know their specific chapter and we also know when they are meeting.

 

It might be fun to get some geocachers to pay a visit to their chapter meeting. I'm sure that most of the members would not approve of what this guy is doing. Calling him out in front of his peers may be a viable solution to this problem.

 

I'm game.. Beats sitting in front of the TV watching Hell's Kitchen and eating potato chips.

Let's not try that right now. For a couple of reasons - first, we don't know who he/she is for sure. Second, there are five grottos that he/she could be a member of. Third, I'm working with a NSS ombudsmen (also a board member) to try and rectify the situation, I'd like to see how that works out before adding any more fuel to the flames.

 

Now, having a small group of cachers attend one (or more) of their meetings - not to call anyone out, but to exchange information so this sort of thing doesn't happen again - that could be a productive idea. Mutual understanding will go a lot farther to keeping the peace than slapping down a "rogue" member - even if in the short term that might feel good. (My, how I've mellowed in the last few days!)

 

I realize this might be steam venting, but...

 

Flip the coin and have one of your best friends called out in the middle of a publicly group meeting like that and ask how you would feel about these a-holes coming in and disrupting your club meeting with BS accusations. Because they only suspect who this individual is and they interrupted your meeting wth general accusations, you're left feeling little bit more than just taken aback. You'll be up in arms and ready to go toe to toe. (At least I would.)

 

1. It doesn't matter your intention - you'll instantly gain more opposition against any cooperative effort between the two hobbies.

2. You will have instantly lost any credibility for yourself as a blowhard who doesn't know how to handle a particularly aggressive problem. And for the hobby and club you might represent... You create some really big black eyes.

 

There are acceptable ways of handling this problem. Jester's suggestion and direction he is taking are two great starts.

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We know what organization these folks are from. It sounds like we know their specific chapter and we also know when they are meeting.

 

It might be fun to get some geocachers to pay a visit to their chapter meeting. I'm sure that most of the members would not approve of what this guy is doing. Calling him out in front of his peers may be a viable solution to this problem.

 

I'm game.. Beats sitting in front of the TV watching Hell's Kitchen and eating potato chips.

Let's not try that right now. For a couple of reasons - first, we don't know who he/she is for sure. Second, there are five grottos that he/she could be a member of. Third, I'm working with a NSS ombudsmen (also a board member) to try and rectify the situation, I'd like to see how that works out before adding any more fuel to the flames.

 

Now, having a small group of cachers attend one (or more) of their meetings - not to call anyone out, but to exchange information so this sort of thing doesn't happen again - that could be a productive idea. Mutual understanding will go a lot farther to keeping the peace than slapping down a "rogue" member - even if in the short term that might feel good. (My, how I've mellowed in the last few days!)

 

I realize this might be steam venting, but...

 

Flip the coin and have one of your best friends called out in the middle of a publicly group meeting like that and ask how you would feel about these a-holes coming in and disrupting your club meeting with BS accusations. Because they only suspect who this individual is and they interrupted your meeting wth general accusations, you're left feeling little bit more than just taken aback. You'll be up in arms and ready to go toe to toe. (At least I would.)

 

1. It doesn't matter your intention - you'll instantly gain more opposition against any cooperative effort between the two hobbies.

2. You will have instantly lost any credibility for yourself as a blowhard who doesn't know how to handle a particularly aggressive problem. And for the hobby and club you might represent... You create some really big black eyes.

 

There are acceptable ways of handling this problem. Jester's suggestion and direction he is taking are two great starts.

 

If all the facts are correct in this thread, you've got a member of the organization threatening not only the caches placed near the caves, but also threatening to steal his other caches also. The behavior of people in this organization has gone beyond a cordial misunderstanding. This is intentional.. This is against the law..

 

It's similar to negotiating with terrorists. Not a good idea. Get the police involved and continue your communication with the organization. The goal is to stop these idiots, not negotiate with them. If this were any other piece of property that someone was threatening to steal, would you react the same way?

 

If I were to threaten Groundspeak and tell them that until they updated the website to only allow 1 found it per cache listing I was going to begin stealing caches, would you recommend Groundspeak speak with members of my organization to try to come to some kind of understanding or would you recommend that Groundspeak take swift legal action to send a clear message and ensure that others don't use similar tactics to get their way.

 

Think about it....

Edited by ReadyOrNot
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IF (and that's a big IF) we knew who the individual was, your suggested action might make more sense. But walking into a meeting of cavers - who might not have any idea who or what you are talking about - and throwing accusations about is no way to rectify this situation. TotemLake has it right about their reaction.

 

Right now, I have no idea whether this person is working alone, or if it is group action (and IF so, does it involve an entire grotto, or just a few others). So any accusations at this point will only cause more problems, not solve this one.

 

So, please, allow me to work with the NSS from the "top down". The holiday weekend is delaying some communication, so it might take a little longer than we'd like. But let's hold off on other action for the time being.

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I've heard from the ombudsmen, and have been assured this is not NSS policy:

The NSS has a clear policy of cooperation with geocachers due to our shared love of the outdoors.

That policy also regards caches as the personal property of the cacher, and certainly NOT as trash.

 

I've asked if the forum title can be changed as this person does not represent the NSS and I shouldn't imply that anymore (it was based on their claims in the first email I received).

I want to thank Team Misguided for the editing the forum title to more accurately reflect the situation.

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We know what organization these folks are from. It sounds like we know their specific chapter and we also know when they are meeting.

 

It might be fun to get some geocachers to pay a visit to their chapter meeting. I'm sure that most of the members would not approve of what this guy is doing. Calling him out in front of his peers may be a viable solution to this problem.

 

I'm game.. Beats sitting in front of the TV watching Hell's Kitchen and eating potato chips.

Let's not try that right now. For a couple of reasons - first, we don't know who he/she is for sure. Second, there are five grottos that he/she could be a member of. Third, I'm working with a NSS ombudsmen (also a board member) to try and rectify the situation, I'd like to see how that works out before adding any more fuel to the flames.

 

Now, having a small group of cachers attend one (or more) of their meetings - not to call anyone out, but to exchange information so this sort of thing doesn't happen again - that could be a productive idea. Mutual understanding will go a lot farther to keeping the peace than slapping down a "rogue" member - even if in the short term that might feel good. (My, how I've mellowed in the last few days!)

 

I realize this might be steam venting, but...

 

Flip the coin and have one of your best friends called out in the middle of a publicly group meeting like that and ask how you would feel about these a-holes coming in and disrupting your club meeting with BS accusations. Because they only suspect who this individual is and they interrupted your meeting wth general accusations, you're left feeling little bit more than just taken aback. You'll be up in arms and ready to go toe to toe. (At least I would.)

 

1. It doesn't matter your intention - you'll instantly gain more opposition against any cooperative effort between the two hobbies.

2. You will have instantly lost any credibility for yourself as a blowhard who doesn't know how to handle a particularly aggressive problem. And for the hobby and club you might represent... You create some really big black eyes.

 

There are acceptable ways of handling this problem. Jester's suggestion and direction he is taking are two great starts.

 

If all the facts are correct in this thread, you've got a member of the organization threatening not only the caches placed near the caves, but also threatening to steal his other caches also. The behavior of people in this organization has gone beyond a cordial misunderstanding. This is intentional.. This is against the law..

 

It's similar to negotiating with terrorists. Not a good idea. Get the police involved and continue your communication with the organization. The goal is to stop these idiots, not negotiate with them. If this were any other piece of property that someone was threatening to steal, would you react the same way?

 

If I were to threaten Groundspeak and tell them that until they updated the website to only allow 1 found it per cache listing I was going to begin stealing caches, would you recommend Groundspeak speak with members of my organization to try to come to some kind of understanding or would you recommend that Groundspeak take swift legal action to send a clear message and ensure that others don't use similar tactics to get their way.

 

Think about it....

 

My point was and is, there is a right way and a wrong way. Going in half-cocked with half-baked accusations without know WHO is doing it will net you... not zero... but a negative. Not only do you lose credibility, you have to rebuild it.

 

Not that I'm doing it, but let's say I want to put NSS in a bad light. It's a very easy thing to do. Pretend to be a member by hook, crook, mask, or declaration, steal a cache from Jester, then get this very post in place to rile up a few hotheads and then let them go at it while I stand to the sidelines and watch it all happen.

 

Oh yah, and if I see it start calming down, I might put in a post similar to yours to rile things back up again. (Not that's what you're up to. :) )

 

Siimply put, a simple stirring the pot is all that's needed to get two organizations at each other's throats.

 

So in summary, I don't agree with vigilantism. It's usually half-cocked and full of errors with a gigantic ooops at the end.

 

Think about it.

Edited by TotemLake
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So in summary, I don't agree with vigilantism. It's usually half-cocked and full of errors with a gigantic ooops at the end.

 

Think about it.

 

What I suggested is not vigilantism. No one suggested doing something to them in kind (there was a post about stealing their caves, but I believe that was in jest) :D The low road would be waiting in the bushes after placing a cache near a cave entrance and communicating your dissatisfaction with them in a non-verbal manner. The high road is finding out who has made the threats and turn it over to the authorities to let them deal with it. That's the opposite of vigilantism.

 

I'll continue watching the thread... Wonder how many caches of Jester's will be destroyed or stolen before he decides that the "high road" isn't working? You won't have any caches left, but at least you can live with the satisfaction that you took the high road and tried to reason with unreasonable people.

 

Think about it...

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So in summary, I don't agree with vigilantism. It's usually half-cocked and full of errors with a gigantic ooops at the end.

 

Think about it.

 

What I suggested is not vigilantism. No one suggested doing something to them in kind (there was a post about stealing their caves, but I believe that was in jest) :D The low road would be waiting in the bushes after placing a cache near a cave entrance and communicating your dissatisfaction with them in a non-verbal manner. The high road is finding out who has made the threats and turn it over to the authorities to let them deal with it. That's the opposite of vigilantism.

 

I'll continue watching the thread... Wonder how many caches of Jester's will be destroyed or stolen before he decides that the "high road" isn't working? You won't have any caches left, but at least you can live with the satisfaction that you took the high road and tried to reason with unreasonable people.

 

Think about it...

 

I think you need to re-read your original comment. Vigilantism takes different forms. Not just in-kind theft. Any action that goes off without full disclosure and irrefutable facts will be nothing less.

 

Jester knows how much I respect him as a geocacher and his hides are great ones to find because they do take you to interesting places. That being said, Jester's caches being lost is the small picture when you take the cooperation between two organizations' for recreation and land stewardship into perspective. In the long run, this will ensure the protection of everybody's caches, and protection of the caves while everybody can have a chance to enjoy each. Knowing Jester the way I do, I believe this is what Jester is striving for. I'm always willing to be corrected if my assumptions are incorrect.

Edited by TotemLake
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So in summary, I don't agree with vigilantism. It's usually half-cocked and full of errors with a gigantic ooops at the end.

 

Think about it.

 

What I suggested is not vigilantism. No one suggested doing something to them in kind (there was a post about stealing their caves, but I believe that was in jest) :D The low road would be waiting in the bushes after placing a cache near a cave entrance and communicating your dissatisfaction with them in a non-verbal manner. The high road is finding out who has made the threats and turn it over to the authorities to let them deal with it. That's the opposite of vigilantism.

 

I'll continue watching the thread... Wonder how many caches of Jester's will be destroyed or stolen before he decides that the "high road" isn't working? You won't have any caches left, but at least you can live with the satisfaction that you took the high road and tried to reason with unreasonable people.

 

Think about it...

First, I'm not saying what you've suggested is wrong. Just that it's wrong right now. I'm working the "high road" (bolded above) within the NSS orginization - it's one of their members that causing the problem, I'm willing for now to see how they deal with it.

 

If - and only if - that comes to nothing, then approaching the grottos on their own might prove productive. But not if done in a confrontational manner. Opening a discourse between our groups will have a better long term effect, then charging in and throwing accusations about.

 

Please be careful on what suggestions you do throw out here, I know the ombudsman reads this thread, and I'm pretty sure the person of interest has seen (or heard about) it. Getting too inflammatory might just give them more ammo - "See, these cachers just want to attack us, we need to teach them a lesson!" - and may push more of their members into this person's "camp".

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If - and only if - that comes to nothing, then approaching the grottos on their own might prove productive. But not if done in a confrontational manner. Opening a discourse between our groups will have a better long term effect, then charging in and throwing accusations about.

 

What accusations? Your cache was stolen and you know who stole it. If you were not sure who stole your caches and ASSUMED it was this group, that would be a different thing altogether. They've basically told you they did it and what group they are with. I agree with TotemLake that there is a possibility that someone not associated with either group is trying to stir the pot and get both groups at each others throats, but I don't think that's a likely scenario.

 

There is nothing wrong with your current course of action. What got my blood boiling was when you posted that they threatened your other caches which weren't even related to the caves. That takes things to a whole different level.

 

I believe that what THEY do next should determine your next course of action and that you should be absolutely prepared to also take things to the next level if its necessary. All I am saying is that you need to be prepared for what may happen. If everyone kisses and makes up and apologizes, then obviously that is the best possible outcome, but things are already escalating and their threats are escalating. In my experience, those are not the actions of reasonable people that are willing to negotiate in a humane manner... I'm not suggesting being a vigilante, but I am suggesting that you be prepared to protect your interests if it comes down to that.

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I think what Jester is doing is the right course of action. He is approaching this situation with thought to the future and trying to take emotion out of it. That is not always easy to do when it's a cache you have worked hard on that was compromised. I commend him for taking this approach.

 

ReadyOrNot - you are entitled to your opinion, however in this case continuing to post that opinion in this thread may damage to Jester's efforts with the NSS. I think it's time to agree to disagree on this issue and move on to other threads.

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If - and only if - that comes to nothing, then approaching the grottos on their own might prove productive. But not if done in a confrontational manner. Opening a discourse between our groups will have a better long term effect, then charging in and throwing accusations about.

 

What accusations? Your cache was stolen and you know who stole it. If you were not sure who stole your caches and ASSUMED it was this group, that would be a different thing altogether. They've basically told you they did it and what group they are with. I agree with TotemLake that there is a possibility that someone not associated with either group is trying to stir the pot and get both groups at each others throats, but I don't think that's a likely scenario.

 

There is nothing wrong with your current course of action. What got my blood boiling was when you posted that they threatened your other caches which weren't even related to the caves. That takes things to a whole different level.

 

I believe that what THEY do next should determine your next course of action and that you should be absolutely prepared to also take things to the next level if its necessary. All I am saying is that you need to be prepared for what may happen. If everyone kisses and makes up and apologizes, then obviously that is the best possible outcome, but things are already escalating and their threats are escalating. In my experience, those are not the actions of reasonable people that are willing to negotiate in a humane manner... I'm not suggesting being a vigilante, but I am suggesting that you be prepared to protect your interests if it comes down to that.

The point is I DON'T know who stole it - all I have is an email address. And the person says he/she is a member of one of five grottos (from Seattle to Boise to Bend to West Linn to Vancouver) - but I DON'T know which one. So which one do I approach? He/she made claims about NSS policy, which the NSS ombudsmen calls false - so I can't blame every NSS member. Right now I'm assuming a "rogue" member - but until I can identify him/her I really don't have much to go on. That's why I'm waiting to see how the ombudsmen works out.

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How about we remove a couple of their caves until you get the cache back?

 

*Off topic comments removed by moderator*

Level Cave got a new name - Dynamite Cave - when some one tried that. The question becomes, how would we return the caves once the caches are returned?

 

But, really, you would get more people than the NSS mad at you - landowners, managers, gub'rment and the like...

Edited by Team Misguided
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I am a member of the NSS and one of the grottos mentioned although I've not been active for the last year and have had nearly no experience in the PNW (schedule issues, etc). It's important to understand that many caves are delicate ecosystems, some which which support endangered species that can be seriously and easily harmed, and that exploring a cave without the proper equipment and experience can be deadly. Therefore, it's a bad idea to place geocaches near/in some caves since doing so will encourage ill-prepared people to explore those caves. Some caves are well-known, 'tourist' caves and placing a cache near one of those shouldn't bother anyone. That said, the vigilante approach taken by some random group of cavers is unacceptable, ineffective and just plain childish.

 

Perhaps it would be reasonable to work with the NSS to attempt establishing guidelines for caches near caves. Some caves should be off-limits. Many of those caves are already protected with locked gates/etc, but some are not. Any cache placed near a cave should include some warnings about protecting the cave's ecosystem and about the dangers of exploring it without adequate preparation. That note could include a link to the local grotto and/or NSS so those geocachers interested in caving could connect with a group that would help them explore that cave safely. It sounds like Groundspeak (?) already has this relationship with respect to earthcaches so perhaps it would make sense to either extend this relationship to all types of caches or only allow earthcaches near caves.

 

Or.... we could all hang out here and complain about cavers and they could hang out 'over there' and complain about geocachers. Perhaps we can meet once 'n awhile to trow rocks at each other too, although it wouldn't be fair since they have helmets (and 3 lights and all sorts of other gear needed to explore caves safely).

 

regards,

JustMike

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I am a member of the NSS and one of the grottos mentioned although I've not been active for the last year and have had nearly no experience in the PNW (schedule issues, etc). It's important to understand that many caves are delicate ecosystems, some which which support endangered species that can be seriously and easily harmed, and that exploring a cave without the proper equipment and experience can be deadly. Therefore, it's a bad idea to place geocaches near/in some caves since doing so will encourage ill-prepared people to explore those caves. Some caves are well-known, 'tourist' caves and placing a cache near one of those shouldn't bother anyone. That said, the vigilante approach taken by some random group of cavers is unacceptable, ineffective and just plain childish.

 

Perhaps it would be reasonable to work with the NSS to attempt establishing guidelines for caches near caves. Some caves should be off-limits. Many of those caves are already protected with locked gates/etc, but some are not. Any cache placed near a cave should include some warnings about protecting the cave's ecosystem and about the dangers of exploring it without adequate preparation. That note could include a link to the local grotto and/or NSS so those geocachers interested in caving could connect with a group that would help them explore that cave safely. It sounds like Groundspeak (?) already has this relationship with respect to earthcaches so perhaps it would make sense to either extend this relationship to all types of caches or only allow earthcaches near caves.

 

Or.... we could all hang out here and complain about cavers and they could hang out 'over there' and complain about geocachers. Perhaps we can meet once 'n awhile to trow rocks at each other too, although it wouldn't be fair since they have helmets (and 3 lights and all sorts of other gear needed to explore caves safely).

 

regards,

JustMike

Welcome, JustMike! I'm happy to have you join the conversation. I've tried hard to keep this from a "complain about cavers" thread - as new information has become available, I've "assigned" blame where it belongs - the rogue caver(s) involved. I've heard from both NSS and NCA, and both are upset that they were used as an excuse for this behavior.

 

The points you bring up in your first paragraph are good, and I'd thought through these before setting the caches. I think you'll find the cache pages address the equipment issue (aside from being 5 star terrain) and the fragile nature of the cave.

 

If a cache near a cave will "encourage ill-prepared people to explore those caves", why would an EarthCache at the cave be different? Most of the same people will be reading the cache pages (there are other users of EarthCaches, I know). I may discover the answer myself, as I'm working on an EarthCache for another nearby lava cave.

 

I set these two caches up as a cache and bonus cache, so that anyone could get to the first cache, but only those willing, able and ready will go for the second cache. The distance in is somewhat self limiting - many cachers aren't willing to go that far, at least, not without preparation. So I don't expect to see large mobs of cachers descending on Ole's Cave (well, maybe this thread has sparked more interest, we'll see).

 

Again, thanks for joining the conversation. I'm interested to hear all you have to say.

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Hi Jester! The cache descriptions you've written are, in my opinion, nicely done. You warn people to wear a helmet, bring 3 sources of light and wear appropriate clothes. You also note when the cave is closed for bat hibernation. The caves in question are quite simple too so it's unlikely anyone will get lost exploring them. So, what you've done seems reasonable to me. It would be also be good to mention that cave visitors should pack out anything they bring in -- trash and, well, human waste (best suggestion is to 'go' before entering the cave). My previous general comments about geocaches in/around caves should not be considered a commentary on your specific caches. In fact, I hope to get out there this summer and find those caches and explore those caves!

 

In the general case, I do feel there is a risk that other geocachers may hide caches in/near caves and not do a good job of explaining the dangers to people and ecosystems. We've all seen examples of caches hidden in locations or in ways that either result in harm to the location or place people in danger so it's not hard to imagine this occurring with caches in/near caves. The difference here is that it can take many years for a cave ecosystem to recover and rescuing people from caves is not simple. Based on previous comments from others in this discussion it sounds like earthcaches receive some NSS review when appropriate so my suggestion was that either only earthcaches be allowed near caves since this review mechanism exists or that the review mechanism be extended to all cache types. This won't stop cachers from visiting caves, nor should that be a goal, but would avoid encouraging cachers to visit dangerous or sensitive caves. Please note that I stated that some caves should be off-limits, not all caves and that any encouragement to visit a cave should include warnings about safety and protection of the ecosystem.

 

Let's get out there and go caving!!!!

 

cheers,

JustMike

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I'm peeved that some self-righteous group thinks they can pull your caches without talking with you first. I guess if this remains at an impasse, you could make an try to make Earthcache or two out of it. Then cachers can still come to the area and there is no cache for some vigilante group to steal.

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IF (and that's a big IF) we knew who the individual was, your suggested action might make more sense. But walking into a meeting of cavers - who might not have any idea who or what you are talking about - and throwing accusations about is no way to rectify this situation. TotemLake has it right about their reaction.

 

I agree. Going in with accusations would be a Bad Idea

 

Now, setting up a Bohm-style dialogue with some of the local grottos about Caching and Caves, without any refrence to the incident (not even a "we heard that someone's talking trash about us cachers!") couldn't hurt us or them, and could enhance the sport.

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... It's important to understand that many caves are delicate ecosystems, some which which support endangered species that can be seriously and easily harmed, and that exploring a cave without the proper equipment and experience can be deadly....

 

Let me build on that to make a larger point. Driving on the road to get to the cave can stress wildlife. Hiking to the cave can trample endangered flora. Spewing CO and CO2 into the air via the SUV that carries all that safety gear contributes to acid rain which no doubt is helping some formations and destroying others. Artifacts, relics, and human remains worthy of veneration and preservation no doubt abound near caves which often held the interests of our forbearers. Even with training every step of the way in in the world both natural and concrete is dangerous. We live in a world where even experienced hikers and guides run into trouble.

 

You have actually given me no information that would tell me why you as a caver are actually qualified to hike to the cave let alone be inside one. Your arguments can be used against you as well as anyone else.

 

Fortunately the entire argument is crap. I'm not saying the points aren't salient. Just they are so universal that they are nothing more than the rules we live by in daily life. "Don't exceed your limits and be careful" Training increases your limits. It doesn't change that you have them.

 

Your real issue is about what I'm going to call human quality control. In other words keeping out the riff raff. Stupid people doing stupid things making the folks who own the land who's good graces you need to be in question allowing YOU to be there. All of that gets in the way of you enjoying your hobby.

 

When you and other folks like you come along and get on your high horse and beat your chest spouting how we all fall short of the gold standard which you have proclaimed yourself to be...we know what you are really saying.

 

Try working from the common ground. Do you think you are the only folks on the planet to have a riff raff problem?

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IF (and that's a big IF) we knew who the individual was, your suggested action might make more sense. But walking into a meeting of cavers - who might not have any idea who or what you are talking about - and throwing accusations about is no way to rectify this situation. TotemLake has it right about their reaction.

 

I agree. Going in with accusations would be a Bad Idea

 

Now, setting up a Bohm-style dialogue with some of the local grottos about Caching and Caves, without any refrence to the incident (not even a "we heard that someone's talking trash about us cachers!") couldn't hurt us or them, and could enhance the sport.

 

Good idea. Allowing the hotheads in any group to control interactions with others just leads to ongoing problems. Some in the geocaching community have worked hard to estiblish and maintain good relationships with various land managers over the years and doing the same with other interest groups, caving in this case, makes perfect sense.

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I agree. Going in with accusations would be a Bad Idea

 

Now, setting up a Bohm-style dialogue with some of the local grottos about Caching and Caves, without any refrence to the incident (not even a "we heard that someone's talking trash about us cachers!") couldn't hurt us or them, and could enhance the sport.

 

Good idea. Allowing the hotheads in any group to control interactions with others just leads to ongoing problems. Some in the geocaching community have worked hard to estiblish and maintain good relationships with various land managers over the years and doing the same with other interest groups, caving in this case, makes perfect sense.

 

I've done something close with work. In order to let similar, complimentary groups know about what we were doing, we set up a sort of Open House, come and get to know us day, and sent invitations out. Then we had a few people designated as the walking FAQs, even doing some demos, and the rest of us mostly socialized and answered casual questions.

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Perhaps it would be reasonable to work with the NSS to attempt establishing guidelines for caches near caves.

 

It would be courtesy to educate the two groups about each other, but consult with them on the placement of caches? Only if they own the land or the cave or, with the permission of the owner, control access to the land or the cave. Otherwise, they are merely a third party with no interest or standing in the case.

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First off, let me introduce myself. I'm both a caver (24 years) and a cacher (2 years). I'm also a member of the Cascade Grotto, though I no longer reside in the Pacific Northwest. I'd just like to say a couple of things. First, no ONE person (including me), with the exception of the Grotto Chairman, speaks for the Grotto. Second, I find it sad that one outdoor enthusiast would try to stop another from enjoying their choice of recreation. That being said, and having known most of the cavers in the Grotto for several years, I'd hate to think any one of them would be so callous. I'm sure the Grotto would welcome any chance to host cachers at a monthly meeting to discuss both caves and caching. Jester, thanks for taking the high road on this one, I know how hard that can be sometimes. For everybody else, please understand that the person taking Jester's caches does NOT represent the Cascade Grotto, and I'd venture to say none of the other grottoes mentioned in their e-mail either. Please don't think that his/her/its views are representative of all cavers. We, just like any group, have folks that are outside the "mainstream" of our society. I'm dissappointed that this has happened, but please keep your comments aimed at the person perpetrating these crimes and not cavers in general or the Grottoes that make up the Northwest Caving Association (NCA).

 

Trogdog

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First off, let me introduce myself. I'm both a caver (24 years) and a cacher (2 years). I'm also a member of the Cascade Grotto, though I no longer reside in the Pacific Northwest. I'd just like to say a couple of things. First, no ONE person (including me), with the exception of the Grotto Chairman, speaks for the Grotto. Second, I find it sad that one outdoor enthusiast would try to stop another from enjoying their choice of recreation. That being said, and having known most of the cavers in the Grotto for several years, I'd hate to think any one of them would be so callous. I'm sure the Grotto would welcome any chance to host cachers at a monthly meeting to discuss both caves and caching. Jester, thanks for taking the high road on this one, I know how hard that can be sometimes. For everybody else, please understand that the person taking Jester's caches does NOT represent the Cascade Grotto, and I'd venture to say none of the other grottoes mentioned in their e-mail either. Please don't think that his/her/its views are representative of all cavers. We, just like any group, have folks that are outside the "mainstream" of our society. I'm dissappointed that this has happened, but please keep your comments aimed at the person perpetrating these crimes and not cavers in general or the Grottoes that make up the Northwest Caving Association (NCA).

 

Trogdog

Hi, Trogdog! Thank you for the post.

 

I'd like to make this very clear right now: In no way do I hold the NSS, NCA or any grotto to blame for the actions of this person(s). The orginal claims by this person(s) were they were acting in accordance with those groups. THIS IS NOT SO! None of the groups (and I've been hearing from them on many levels) condone the actions taken. I'm sorry that I publicly dragged them into this snarl when they had no involvement. I don't know if this person(s) has a personal grudge against me, dislikes caching/caches/cachers in general, or just was trying to cause trouble for both groups because thery are small-minded, petty troublemakers.

 

I do have plans for bringing the caches back - I just don't care to share them yet (publicly). But if anyone wants to come with me when I do go down (probably in Aug) let me know.

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First off, let me introduce myself. I'm both a caver (24 years) and a cacher (2 years). I'm also a member of the Cascade Grotto, though I no longer reside in the Pacific Northwest. I'd just like to say a couple of things. First, no ONE person (including me), with the exception of the Grotto Chairman, speaks for the Grotto. Second, I find it sad that one outdoor enthusiast would try to stop another from enjoying their choice of recreation. That being said, and having known most of the cavers in the Grotto for several years, I'd hate to think any one of them would be so callous. I'm sure the Grotto would welcome any chance to host cachers at a monthly meeting to discuss both caves and caching. Jester, thanks for taking the high road on this one, I know how hard that can be sometimes. For everybody else, please understand that the person taking Jester's caches does NOT represent the Cascade Grotto, and I'd venture to say none of the other grottoes mentioned in their e-mail either. Please don't think that his/her/its views are representative of all cavers. We, just like any group, have folks that are outside the "mainstream" of our society. I'm disappointed that this has happened, but please keep your comments aimed at the person perpetrating these crimes and not cavers in general or the Grottoes that make up the Northwest Caving Association (NCA).

 

Trogdog

 

Like Trogdog, I am both a caver (29 years) and a cacher (2.5 years, 2992 finds, 88 hides). Although I am not a member of any of the local aforementioned Grottoes (NSS Caving Clubs per se), I have been an NSS member for almost 30 years. I can strongly attest to what Trogdog has succinctly stated above.

 

…I'd like to make this very clear right now: In no way do I hold the NSS, NCA or any grotto to blame for the actions of this person(s). The original claims by this person(s) were they were acting in accordance with those groups. THIS IS NOT SO! None of the groups (and I've been hearing from them on many levels) condone the actions taken. …

 

In light of this unfortunate situation, I would like to commend The Jester for keeping his cool and contacting the NSS.

 

If you will accept them, I would like to send you replacement containers stuffed with swag, logbooks, and pens to use. (Just email me through GC dot Com.)

 

Finally, I would like to emphasize my belief that no matter the size of any group, one person is not a valid representative.*

 

CaverScott, Past NSS President and addicted GeoCacher

 

 

*unless he has been appointed spokesperson, chairman, president, etc.

Edited by CaverScott & CaverJules
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I do have plans for bringing the caches back - I just don't care to share them yet (publicly). But if anyone wants to come with me when I do go down (probably in Aug) let me know.

 

Drat. Those sounded like fun and I plan on spending the 24th and 25th in the area. looks like I will have to get them some time in the future. Of course I could go check on the bonus if you want.

 

edit... early, no talk good...

Edited by AndrewRJ
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I do have plans for bringing the caches back - I just don't care to share them yet (publicly). But if anyone wants to come with me when I do go down (probably in Aug) let me know.

 

Please shout when these caches are available again. I'm looking forward to the adventure.

 

Regards,

JustMike

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I'm getting close to replacing the caches, anyone interested in joining me for a mid-week run? You can beta test the new hides and get a cave tour to boot! I haven't set a firm date, just sometime this month. It has to be a weekday, as my weekends are spoken for.

I will be down there the 19th - 24th. Not sure exactly where but somewhere between Cougar and Govt. Mineral Spings Guard Station.

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I hate to say this, but it sounds like the person has access to a premium membership (and even without a premium membership) the person could be following this thread.

 

If the person is emailing you then more than likely, you can get the IP address from the email properties - tracing back to the originating IP address/Host.

 

Past that, don't expect help from the individual's service provider - that's considered confidential information and service usage implies an expected amount of privacy (short of a court order).

 

Even with an IP address; that would only narrow it down to a point. It wouldn't give you the actual person's information - unless; like so many other not-too-bright individuals I've seen that name their static hosts to match their personal names.

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Perhaps it would be reasonable to work with the NSS to attempt establishing guidelines for caches near caves.

 

It would be courtesy to educate the two groups about each other, but consult with them on the placement of caches? Only if they own the land or the cave or, with the permission of the owner, control access to the land or the cave. Otherwise, they are merely a third party with no interest or standing in the case.

 

What cachers have in common with cavers is that we rely on other peoples lands for the enjoyment of our activities. The NSS has deep roots that caching doesn't yet have. They have used some of their resources to purchase caves.

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Hmm, 1 for the 20th, 1 for the 27th, 2 for either (including me) - hydnsek you have the deciding vote... :D

 

I'm gone for the weekend, I'll try and check here on Sunday night.

Not it! :D

 

I don't want to have to choose between LandRover and AndrewRJ. :D I'm a 'maybe' at this point, anyway, but if I can go, the 27th is the more likely date. I may be over Wenatchee way on 20th. That said, it's your trip, Jester, you should make the call.

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