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embra

Delorme PN-40

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Chip has taken the wraps off the PN-20 successor in a post at the Delorme blog.

 

The juiciest tidbits announce so far:

* NEW! Super high-sensitivity 32-channel Cartesio chipset by STMicroelectronics delivers near-instantaneous signal acquisition and ConstantLock™ satellite retention

* NEW! Dual-core processor for rapid screen re-draws, even with large aerial imagery files

* NEW! 500 MB of onboard Flash memory (1 GB total hard drive)

* NEW! 3-axis electronic compass with included accelerometer performs when held in any position—while in motion or standing still

* NEW! Sensitive barometric altimeter for reliably accurate altitude readings

* NEW! Supports SDHC high-capacity SD cards—32 GB or higher

* NEW! Fast USB 2.0 data transfer to internal memory or SD card in device

* NEW! More detailed onboard base map data for the U.S., now with secondary and connector roads (along with major highways and thoroughfares for the entire world)

 

<snip>

 

* PN-40 scheduled for Fall 2008 release

 

A press release that may have more information is said to be coming out later today.

 

I'm jazzed! ;)

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Wow, you made me look. I really got excited about the 3-axis electronic compass and the dual core processor. I almost had one foot off the Garmin Train getting ready to jump. I thought it might be time for GPSr #52. Then I looked at the picture. What a dinky little display. I just can’t see myself leaving my big voluptuous Colorado display for that pathetic little one. Sorry, maybe next time.

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I agree. If they really want to go down the raster image route, they need a bigger, better display.

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I'd like--and would pay for--a larger screen. But I've adjusted pretty well to the PN-20 screen, which is about the same size as the etrex. It looks like the form factor of the PN-20/PN-40 is identical.

 

My guess is that with adding the faster processor, additional memory, altimeter and compass that they must have been wanting to keep the cost from getting too high. Since the map quality is my top priority, this is still the best way for me to go.

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Or perhaps trying to keep power consumption down. We need nuclear powered GPS’s.

 

Cost in this arena doesn’t mater that much. Look at the folks that where jumping all over each other to pay full retail at REI just to be the first to get the Colorado.

Edited by Cacheoholic

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Or perhaps trying to keep power consumption down. We need nuclear powered GPS’s.

Good point...the power consumption on the PN-20 isn't bad, but it's not great, either. More electronic sensors and dual processors won't help on that count.

 

BTW, I'm an IUP grad. Great place to go to school. And to ride a bike.

Edited by embra

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Wow, you made me look. I really got excited about the 3-axis electronic compass and the dual core processor. I almost had one foot off the Garmin Train getting ready to jump. I thought it might be time for GPSr #52. Then I looked at the picture. What a dinky little display. I just can’t see myself leaving my big voluptuous Colorado display for that pathetic little one. Sorry, maybe next time.

While the screen might be small, the maps are the best around and makes up for that smaller screen. It is, in some cases, better/easier to look at then a larger screen with crappy maps.

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@ 55 and both nearsighted and farsighted one has to take off the glasses and hold it about 5"

away to see it, I'll have to take your word for the resolution, doesn't mean squat if you can't

see the screen! :^( . . . Bi-focals don't cut it in my craft, getting on and off moving equipment.

Plus, I'm not flush enough to have a different set of glasses for every hobby, 'twould be nice though!

 

Norm

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Wow, you made me look. I really got excited about the 3-axis electronic compass and the dual core processor. I almost had one foot off the Garmin Train getting ready to jump. I thought it might be time for GPSr #52. Then I looked at the picture. What a dinky little display. I just can’t see myself leaving my big voluptuous Colorado display for that pathetic little one. Sorry, maybe next time.

While the screen might be small, the maps are the best around and makes up for that smaller screen. It is, in some cases, better/easier to look at then a larger screen with crappy maps.

Who knows? There may be some who prefer watching The Jerry Springer Show on a 40" TV over watching the National Geographic Channel on a 32" TV. :D

 

OTOH, if Garmin comes out with an equivalent map functionality, I'll have both. :)

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Who knows? There may be some who prefer watching The Jerry Springer Show on a 40" TV over watching the National Geographic Channel on a 32" TV. :)

 

OTOH, if Garmin comes out with an equivalent map functionality, I'll have both. :D

Garmin does Mac & DeLorme doesn't, Hmmmm . . . Jerry on High Def & N/G on NTSC

(Never Twice the Same Color) . . . :^)

 

Norm

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@ 55 and both nearsighted and farsighted one has to take off the glasses and hold it about 5"

away to see it, I'll have to take your word for the resolution, doesn't mean squat if you can't

see the screen! :^( . . . Bi-focals don't cut it in my craft, getting on and off moving equipment.

Plus, I'm not flush enough to have a different set of glasses for every hobby, 'twould be nice though!

 

Norm

Roger that, Norm!

 

I'm 69 and nearsighted one eye and farsighted in the other, so I know where you're at.

Fortunately, I have the means for two distinct bi-focals (typical reading and driving in addition to a reading and computer screen distance) and a monofocal pair (distance focus for playing tennis - don't want a ball coming at me to jump across the bi-focal line :) ).

 

But, I guess with all that, I have no problem with the comparatively diminutive screen of the PN-20 although I would highly welcome a larger screen, all other characteristics equal. :D

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BTW, I'm an IUP grad. Great place to go to school. And to ride a bike.

 

Small world. If you ever come back to visit let me know. I'd even loan you a bike because I bought my wife the same bike I have. Although I only do rails to trails on a bicycle. I have a dual sport motorcycle I use on and off road.

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* NEW! Super high-sensitivity 32-channel Cartesio chipset by STMicroelectronics delivers near-instantaneous signal acquisition and ConstantLock™ satellite retention
I'm 99% sure this is the same chipset being used in the new Nuvi 2x5's. So if you want a big display, with lighter weight, at much lower cost and it speaks Garmin instead of DeLorme.

 

Also, Garmin has their own name for ConstantLock, I believe it uses the internal clock and last position to know where the satellites are in the sky to speed lock.

 

The best thing about the PN-40, is at last Garmin has a real competitor. A professional company that has real bullets to fire, unlike company M that only fires blanks.

 

Can't wait for Garmin to up the ante.

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Wow, you made me look. I really got excited about the 3-axis electronic compass and the dual core processor. I almost had one foot off the Garmin Train getting ready to jump. I thought it might be time for GPSr #52. Then I looked at the picture. What a dinky little display. I just can’t see myself leaving my big voluptuous Colorado display for that pathetic little one. Sorry, maybe next time.

BUT The display on the PN-20 is similar to that on the eTrex Color & 60/76 Color units in being more readable in diverse lighting situations. Doesn't need backlight as much as the Colorado.

(I have a PN-20, Garmin 76CSX & Colorado)

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I have nothing but love for the displays of my Colorados. I have no problem reading them.

 

I loaned my 60CSx to a friend the other day. I turned it on to make sure it still worked. Yuck! That display almost made me hurl. I tried my Venture Cx. Not quite as bad, better with the backlight on but the reception stinks. Then I remembered I used to run the backlight on it a lot. So what’s the big deal if you have to use the backlight occasionally on a Colorado? Battery life? I can get about 8 hours out of a set of 2700 mAh NiMH rechargeable batteries with the backlight on high. I keep a spare set in my pocket. That’s leaves 8 hours to sleep.

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Just curious if you have ever seen/looked at the PN-20 screen? I'm with you on looking at the screen on my 60CS that I still have. After looking at the PN-20 then the 60, I get the same feeling.

Edited by benjamin921

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I have a PN-20 and a 400t, and the resolution of the 20 makes up for the diff in size for my use. My only preference for the Colorado over the PN-20, when I have a preference, is in relation to processor speed. I'll definitely be on the list for a PN-40 if the speed factor is remedied. I love Delorme's topo maps.

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Just curious if you have ever seen/looked at the PN-20 screen?

 

I saw one someone had at an Event Cache a little while back. I just played for a few moments but never used one in a real life adventure. I suppose there will be a few PN-20's cheap after the PN-40 is released. Maybe I'll pick one up then. I think I might end up giving up on it too easily since all I’d do is geocaching with it. If I hiked and need good maps and good tracks then it would be a different story.

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If I hiked and need good maps and good tracks then it would be a different story.

This is exactly my viewpoint. I was down in the desert 4WD'g two months ago and I'll be up in the High Sierras camping next month. For these occasions, I really appreciate the DeLorme Topo maps in addition to the USGS 3DTQs on my PN-20. On the other hand, I was geocaching yesterday in a Home Depot shopping center parking lot and not even using the maps; I just parked and walked to the waypoint symbol on the screen.

 

And not to belittle big screen size, I have an OEM GPS/NAV in my Jeep with a 3" x 5" screen. In comparison, no way do I want to glance at a lesser Tom Tom at 70mph.

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Any hints about their cross platform compatibility schema?

 

Norm

Attn. Chip,

I re-iterate the question w/a bump to the top.

 

Norm

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Good question RRLover... While I can't speak to any schedules, I can say that there's an exciting cross platform buzz going on here at DeLorme.

 

There are quite a few Mac fanatics in the development group and elsewhere in the building who are lobbying for support internally.

 

I know that's a pretty vague hint but I wanted to let all of the Mac users that are looking at the PN-20 and PN-40 know that we are listening...

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

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OK, Mac folk, turn the knob to 11, crank it up . . . I can't hear you, louder!

 

Norm

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Mac-using GPSBabel-heads requesting Delorme support (and the ones that count most are those with patches in hand or attached to paypal/google checkout donations to motivate someone else to do the work...) haven't really registered on the radar.

 

If you care about PN-[24]0 with GPSBabel (which supports OS/X, Linux, and other OSes) make it heard on that list - and back it with either code, hardware, or enough interest to make it happen.

 

So far, the interest from the union of Delorme and their users hasn't been statistically interesting

 

Signed,

Chief GPSBabel-head.

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Dear Chief,

 

Out of more than curiosity, what ballpark quantity rises to the level of significance in Babel-land? (I tried typing Babeland but it changed the nature of my question too much.)

 

I've been formulating a argument for trying to persuade the company coders to pick up the project. Mac (and other OSes) support sounds like a very good angle to add.

Edited by embra

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The best thing about the PN-40, is at last Garmin has a real competitor. A professional company that has real bullets to fire, unlike company M that only fires blanks.

I think 'duds' would be a more accurate term to use. ;)

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I just wish that the new PN-40 had the option to get a larger screen like the size of my Magellan XL ( That has been abandoned by *M* ;) ) that is the perfect form factor for my ATV navigation adventures. I have several Delorme Mapping software products that work well and would like to replace my XL with something for these old eyes to be able to see. How about it Delorme,...step up to the plate and offer a larger screened PN-40XX !!!

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A larger screen is precisely why I'm considering a Nuvi 205W. As you're probably aware, the PN-20/40 have the same small screen as the Garmin Vista.

 

GarminCompare.gif

 

The Nuvi 205W has roughly 4 times the pixel count and display area as the Vista, at the same weight.

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Once again, while the screen size might be smaller, the maps are so good that it really makes up for a lot when looking at it.

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Ben's posted a number of screenshots here (in the Delorme forum) that show what the PN-20 shows. The PN-40 should show the same thing (same size/resolution AFAIK).

 

Ben--you might add some hybrid shots to that collection if you've a mind to. I guess I could do that, too, if I motivate.

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Some observations from those many screenshots.

- They all lack a scale, zoom 1-15 is almost meaningless.

- The 3DTQ's display that lovely analog, hand drawn look, at zoom 12 and below, then they pixelate

- The aerials are mostly unique to the PN-20/40, perhaps a Colorado can do this, not sure. A Nuvi will display photos, but I don't think they are geo-referenced.

- The colors are very muted, display or maps or ?

- The text banner at the top consumes less valuable space than Garmin's banner.

- I didn't see any land ownership backgrounds on any of the shots. Like parks, NF, BLM. An example from Above the Timber's website:

 

ArchesColoRiver.gif

 

It amplifies your contention that it spite of its small size, that crisp display can work very well. Is it possible for you to duplicate that screenshot?

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You make some good observations. I cut a small map of the area so we could compare screen shots.

 

In Benjamin's shots, he used the zoom level option (I think for the benefit of other PN-20 users, since he posted them in the Delorme forum). I've used the distance scale.

 

Color shading of national and state parks seems to be viewable at 2 and 1 mi zoom levels, but not below. Contours show up at .5 mi. and closer. The Delorme mapset seems to include a few trails not in Timber's...but, like all mapping programs, Topo 6 and 7 are far from comprehensive in trail coverage (I do like that it's easy to add trails to maps for GPS upload). (Edit: not trails; I misread the intermittent streams)

 

screencap-2008-07-03--19-28-21.jpg

 

screencap-2008-07-03--19-30-01.jpg

 

In these (and Benjamin's shots) the data fields at the bottom of the screen have been turned off...they take up a lot of real estate.

 

A lot of the imagery does strike me as muted compared to Timber's. This topic at the Delorme forum shows that the PN-20 can display bright colors (e.g., these shots that Ben (again) made showing user defined areas created within Topo7.

Edited by embra

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Ben's posted a number of screenshots here (in the Delorme forum) that show what the PN-20 shows. The PN-40 should show the same thing (same size/resolution AFAIK).

 

Ben--you might add some hybrid shots to that collection if you've a mind to. I guess I could do that, too, if I motivate.

Well, I'm not motivated. When they are not going to be convinced, then .......

 

As I said, I'd rather watch WWE wrasslin' on a 40" 1080p LCD HDTV than The National Geographic Channel on a 26" STD Def TV because BIG screen size is more important than the program material. :)

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As I said, I'd rather watch WWE wrasslin' on a 40" 1080p LCD HDTV than The National Geographic Channel on a 26" STD Def TV because BIG screen size is more important than the program material. :D

Not disagreeing with your analogy; if one could have the best of both worlds, why not?

I, for one, would gather the means to achieve this goal, because it suits my needs (a vague allusion to

dialogs past . . . ;^) ).

 

Norm

Edited by RRLover

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Dear Chief,

 

Out of more than curiosity, what ballpark quantity rises to the level of significance in Babel-land? (I tried typing Babeland but it changed the nature of my question too much.)

 

I've been formulating a argument for trying to persuade the company coders to pick up the project. Mac (and other OSes) support sounds like a very good angle to add.

We recognize that our initial transfer protocol documentation and follow-up API haven't been picked up by some of the third party geocaching tools.

 

Our cross platform effort that I've mentioned here will work with GPX files directly... from gc.com or from the third party geocaching tools that support the GPX format so you won't have to wait for them to pick up support for the DeLorme format.

 

As I said in my previous post, we're early in the project, no dates to share yet... but the comments that appear here, in our DeLorme forum, and elsewhere help when we try to balance this project against all of the parallel development going on with our other projects.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

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(I do like that it's easy to add trails to maps for GPS upload). (Edit: not trails; I misread the intermittent streams)
I'd agree, especially since I've seen the considerable interest in custom map making on this forum.

 

screencap-2008-07-03--19-28-21.jpg

 

ArchesColoRiver.gif

 

screencap-2008-07-03--19-30-01.jpg

 

A lot of the imagery does strike me as muted compared to Timber's.
I strongly suspect the this color thing is because the Garmin Vista display can NOT display the muted colors even if the map maker desired. To my knowledge, the Vista will only display 256 colors, whereas the same size PN-20 will display 65K colors. Doing a little Wiki reading, one gets more colors by adjusting the voltage on the pixel. So my guess is Garmin opted for a less costly controller. In viewing the other linked screenshots, its clear the PN-20 can display all the bright colors too.

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Still no plans for maps for canada?

 

Since that is probably still a NO I am actually going to be selling my PN-20. The photo importing is just too slow via xmap making it a huge time requirement for many square miles of detailed maps.

 

Delorme, if you ever add topo canada to your software I would be using it night and day! until then it was fun!

 

(Disclaimer: I knew there were no Canadian maps, I was warned and it is not the fault of delorme, they were very helpful)

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Out of more than curiosity, what ballpark quantity rises to the level of significance in Babel-land? (I tried typing

 

Hey, Embra.

 

The only absolute number I could produce would involve an hourly invoice.

 

I'm rooting for Delorme in this market. Really.

 

Despite some 600 downloads a day - plus whatever is represented by the combined user bases of GSAK, GeoJournal, MacCaching, GeoGournal, HoudahGPS, Google Earth, etc. - it's not like the user base is storming my door for PN-20 support.

 

Delorme chose to implement a USB protocol that happens to be moderately expensive to implement cross-platform. To their credit, they documented it - something Garmin didn't do until late - but someone has to do the work.

 

If anyone - including Delorme - sent a patch set to me to add PN-[24]0 support to GPSBabel - the leading cross-platform GPS/Geocaching-aware app that met our requirements for support, doc, code quality, testing, etc. it wouldn't meet any particular resistance. It's just a matter of someone wanting it enough to make it happen.

 

It doesn't have to be me...

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We recognize that our initial transfer protocol documentation and follow-up API haven't been picked up by some of the third party geocaching tools.

 

Our cross platform effort that I've mentioned here will work with GPX files directly... from gc.com or from the third party geocaching tools that support the GPX format so you won't have to wait for them to pick up support for the DeLorme format.

 

As I said in my previous post, we're early in the project, no dates to share yet... but the comments that appear here, in our DeLorme forum, and elsewhere help when we try to balance this project against all of the parallel development going on with our other projects.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

 

Chip :

I'm reading this as; very little, if anything, beyond GPX transfer. No maps, none of all the really cool stuff

(adding trails to maps, importing maps & satellite imagery) that makes DeLorme stand out will be

addressed in this cross-platform implementation.

 

Is that correct?

 

I'd like to know sooner than later. I'm not enthralled w/Parallels, and even less so w/Windows.

As dodgey as it is (CO/Bobcat) right now, without a complete package (Topo, and all the ancillaries) from

DeLorme, i'll have to give the edge to Garmin.

SO!?!? . . . I guess I'm saying : ""Go big, or go home" . . . just the little fiddlies doesn't cut it!"

 

I really don't like waiting for something and getting something else. So please, if you can, try to spell out

just how big this party is gonna be. That is, . . . if there's gonna be one at all.

 

Norm

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I'll be motivated on Monday :D

Posted here as well.

 

With the 3DTQ's, I like the hybrid turned off.

tn_hybrid3DTQ.jpg

 

With the .sid, it really helped. I just did a 300 mile motorcycle trip with the PN-20 and had some of these on and it was easy to read while riding.

tn_hybridsid.jpg

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Chip :

I'm reading this as; very little, if anything, beyond GPX transfer. No maps, none of all the really cool stuff

(adding trails to maps, importing maps & satellite imagery) that makes DeLorme stand out will be

addressed in this cross-platform implementation.

 

Is that correct?

 

I'd like to know sooner than later. I'm not enthralled w/Parallels, and even less so w/Windows.

As dodgey as it is (CO/Bobcat) right now, without a complete package (Topo, and all the ancillaries) from

DeLorme, i'll have to give the edge to Garmin.

SO!?!? . . . I guess I'm saying : ""Go big, or go home" . . . just the little fiddlies doesn't cut it!"

 

I really don't like waiting for something and getting something else. So please, if you can, try to spell out

just how big this party is gonna be. That is, . . . if there's gonna be one at all.

 

Norm

 

You're right; we're not porting Topo USA to the Mac with this effort. While I'm not going to lay out the design doc here in a public forum, we are looking at some geocaching specific features that go beyond basic GPX support. We know there are a lot of great tools out there and want to offer something of value to the Mac audience... more details will become available later. This post was intended to answer the general question of DeLorme's intentions when it comes to cross-platform support.

 

I appreciate your recommendation to go big and avoid little fiddlies and definitely don't want you to get something other than what you waited for. I'll be in touch with you privately to invite you to the party, we are always looking for enthusiastic testers and your activity level here makes me think you'd be a good fit!

 

Thanks for the active inquiries about the new device and our intentions for cross-platform support.

 

Chip Noble

Team DeLorme

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Don't know if it can be said yet or not, but I didn't see anyone else ask yet.

What are the paperless geocaching abilities? Same as the PN-20, improved?

Any chance of full Wherigo support? If so, will that include sound?

Good paperless geocaching and Wherigo support (especially if it supports sound) would probably lock me into waiting for the PN-40 (well, if its price will be in a good range for me anyhow).

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Hmmm Paperless geocaching . . .

Down grading a GPSr equipped with more robust hardware? Garmin tried that, I don't

think it's turning out like they wanted it to w/the CO, time will tell. I think that's why

they're being so vague about usable space, . . . gotta save room for features & fixes.

If customers don't know what they have, how can they whine when it gets smaller?

If they put back the more technical features they pioneered in earlier models it's gotta

go somewhere.

I'm thinking Wherigo is proprietarily locked to Garmin and Groundspeak, or licensing is

prohibitively expensive. Also the build software seems to be enmeshed w/Windows, I don't

find XP very intuitive so Vista may or may not be just as much fun, and developing the

cartridges would be half the fun, not just gaming, but say training new employees doing field

work, or zoo tours, heck even shopping for real-estate could be examples of commercial

potential, the mind boggles.

 

"(well, if it's price will be in a good range for me anyhow).

 

The PN-20 has been from it's inception (even @ full retail) one of, if not the best values ...

read : bang for buck, available in the recent market. Their customer support should be a

model example for the competition, and their participation in this, as well as their own forum

are prime examples. They have the trust in their customer base to grant them 'bellwether',

within reasonable expectations. I would be surprised if that philosophy were to change w/the

introduction of a new model. Improvement can be interpreted many ways, w/ DeLorme you

KNOW when your feedback is acknowledged, that says a lot. I got burned by Maggie, Garmin's

trying to do too much too fast, DeLorme's still near the top of my 'front runner list' for my

replacement GPSr. These are interesting times, paradigm shifts in the economic, computer,

recreation, transportation . . . ad infinitum worlds, I'm liking the straight forward, "from the

hip" direction they are demonstrating. Considering Macintosh is enough for me to lift my

glasses, I can focus REALLY GOOD . . . at 4- 5". . . ;^)!

 

Norm

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Does anyone know if:

 

1) the Barometer records pressure data when the unit is turned off? Is it an option?

2) is there an alarm clock feature?

3) Waypoint Averaging?

 

I know these aren't essential features but nice ones to have for my uses. If these features are present It's bye bye Colorado (and all the problems, drift, innacuracy, bugs, non-working features ;) ), hello PN-40!!!! ;)

Delorme appears to be much more responsive and proactive about issues regarding their units. Sometimes talking to Garmin feels like an excercise in futility.

Edited by yogazoo

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Delorme has announced the PN-40 release date and price: October 15, $399.95.
For comparison, that's $200 less than the similarly equipped Colorado 400T or Oregon 400T, obviously no High Res display. Not possible to make an apples to apples comparison, but I'll bet its readable in bright sunlight w/o the backlight.

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