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Please allow me to vent


Geo Quest
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Just because it's in a Wal-mart or something, doesn't mean that it doesn't have permission. You can't assume.

I dunno. That's a pretty easy assumption for me to make. One of the advantages to being in law enforcement is that I am frequently speaking with the management of various big box stores, (Sir, do you want to prosecute? Sign here.), and our conversations have often lead into caching as a general topic, without "outing" any specific cache. Out of over a dozen conversations I've had, the only answer I've received is "No". That list includes, but is not limited to, Walmart, Kmart, Target, Big Lots, Ace, Publix, Starbucks and, (you guessed it), Cracker Barrel. I am at a 100% "No" rate.

 

My other reason for making such a broad sweeping assumption is the conversations I've had with my fellow cachers regarding these types of hides. Every single cacher I've spoken with about their commercial property cache stated that they did not get specific permission for them.

 

(Edit: I take that back. I know of two exceptions. :laughing: )

 

These observations lead me to suspect that the vast majority of commercial property caches have been hidden under the guise of "adequate" permission, I.e: the belief that, because Joe Public is allowed to be at a particular place, and there are no rules specifically prohibiting it, a cache can be hidden there. While I am a proponent of the adequate permission theory for public lands, my interpretation of the guidelines doesn't allow me to include private property in that assessment.

 

Thats along the lines of what I was talking about. There are some in locations that when I approached the management about geocaches on their property they also said no, yet there are caches there already.

 

Are cache placers usually receptive to comments along those lines, or is there someone else who should be contacted?

 

Just wondering the etiquette for improperly placed caches (as in, put in private property without permission).

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I really don't think that the reviewers want to be told every time you suspect that a cache on commercial property may have been placed without permission, especially if you suspect that almost all of them are. If the reviewer was fine to list the cache, then perhaps you shouldn't worry too much about it. If you see that it is a major issue, or get a warning while searching for the cache, or the police are called on you :laughing: , then by all means - say something.

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Just because it's in a Wal-mart or something, doesn't mean that it doesn't have permission. You can't assume.

I dunno. That's a pretty easy assumption for me to make. One of the advantages to being in law enforcement is that I am frequently speaking with the management of various big box stores, (Sir, do you want to prosecute? Sign here.), and our conversations have often lead into caching as a general topic, without "outing" any specific cache. Out of over a dozen conversations I've had, the only answer I've received is "No". That list includes, but is not limited to, Walmart, Kmart, Target, Big Lots, Ace, Publix, Starbucks and, (you guessed it), Cracker Barrel. I am at a 100% "No" rate.

 

My other reason for making such a broad sweeping assumption is the conversations I've had with my fellow cachers regarding these types of hides. Every single cacher I've spoken with about their commercial property cache stated that they did not get specific permission for them.

 

(Edit: I take that back. I know of two exceptions. :laughing: )

 

These observations lead me to suspect that the vast majority of commercial property caches have been hidden under the guise of "adequate" permission, I.e: the belief that, because Joe Public is allowed to be at a particular place, and there are no rules specifically prohibiting it, a cache can be hidden there. While I am a proponent of the adequate permission theory for public lands, my interpretation of the guidelines doesn't allow me to include private property in that assessment.

 

I'll bet if you had conversations with those SAME managers of big box stores and asked if they'd be willing to give specific permission for someone to do a cartwheel in their parking lot, you'd get a 100% "No" rate too.

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...our conversations have often lead into caching as a general topic, without "outing" any specific cache. Out of over a dozen conversations I've had, the only answer I've received is "No"....

 

I wonder how many who have the authority to sign and prosecute would actually lack the authority to allow a cache.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Some people just enjoy finding caches, some people really like to hide caches, and some people like to do both. They key is that finders, hiders, and "both'ers" are having fun and all are contributing to the game. Imagine, placing a cache and having nobody look for it. Imagine, going out caching and having no caches to find. The key here is having fun. If one no longer finds it fun, they should stop.

 

Perhaps the person starting this thread should think about creating some of the best cache hides within something like 25 miles from his base...maybe that would start the renewal process. Or again, if it's not fun, take up something different, like video games :D (that sure to make one miss the wide opens spaces...) :laughing: .

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I personally don't find any fun in the "hunt" when I have to walk around a wal-mart or k-mart parking lot. I would much rather hunt for a crappy cache on public land than find a good one on a business's premises.

 

Also, if Willox 96 and crew come upon a cache that is dirty or full of junk, we clean it up and replace junk with a couple of nicer things. After all, isn't that what being part of the geocaching community is all about?

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So, what I am getting is that there really is nothing that can be done if someone didnt follow the rules with placing a cache. As soon as its 'approved' by the admin here and listed as a cache, its a cache, until the owner finds it and removes it?

 

I am still kinda new to this, so I am not trying to make a fuss.. but doesnt that seem a little irresponsible as an organization? We have rules (like get permission before putting a cache on private property) but no way to enforce those rules, and even going so far as to check on them is discouraged?

 

Doesnt make sense to me. I guess the only thing I can do is make sure I am following the rules for placing a cache myself when the time comes to start doing that. Guess the 'honor system' means different things to different people.

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So, what I am getting is that there really is nothing that can be done if someone didnt follow the rules with placing a cache. As soon as its 'approved' by the admin here and listed as a cache, its a cache, until the owner finds it and removes it?

 

I am still kinda new to this, so I am not trying to make a fuss.. but doesnt that seem a little irresponsible as an organization? We have rules (like get permission before putting a cache on private property) but no way to enforce those rules, and even going so far as to check on them is discouraged?

 

Doesnt make sense to me. I guess the only thing I can do is make sure I am following the rules for placing a cache myself when the time comes to start doing that. Guess the 'honor system' means different things to different people.

 

Sadly, there are adults who don't follow the honor system as well as others. If the adults can't follow the rules, what are they teaching the young cachers that accompany them?

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I feel the same as YOU. This "GAME" has degraded big time. And What the hell is muggle??????

 

You're a charter member, you've been around since 02... you have 7 forum posts and you don't know what a muggle is? :laughing::D

 

Something's not adding up here.

 

when did the word muggle start to be used. i was away from caching for a year and i remember thinking this year when i came back, where did that word come from. could be i didn't spend enough time in the forums before.

 

another old-timer

rsg

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I personally don't find any fun in the "hunt" when I have to walk around a wal-mart or k-mart parking lot. I would much rather hunt for a crappy cache on public land than find a good one on a business's premises.

 

Also, if Willox 96 and crew come upon a cache that is dirty or full of junk, we clean it up and replace junk with a couple of nicer things. After all, isn't that what being part of the geocaching community is all about?

 

yep! i quite enjoy cleaning out a junky cache and leaving new fun stuff, usually in zip locks to protect the items. i probably spend too much time in "swag" stores. :laughing:

 

but i do miss the days when the "high tec treasure hunt" really meant some form of treasure.

 

i love the things i have found in caches, good quality army knife, drill bits (now where did i hide that drill?)

face wipes, sunscreen wipes, first aid kits etc.

 

rsg who hates micros unless they are very special or in the way of another normal size cache.

Edited by RedShoesGirl
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A cache was hidden in a hollow stump and had blackberry bushes nearby? That sounds like a very good cache, to me.

 

You wonder why they hid it where they did. Perhaps it was to tell you where to get free blackberries.

 

love that line!

 

:laughing:

 

On a different note: I had no idea my avatar looked like an elephant to people! HA! HA! (That's my old fashioned way to LOL)

Ridiculous. It's obviously a walrus.

 

 

funny, I thought it was a rhino. :D

Edited by Bumplett
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One thing I'd like to point out is that most 'big box' stores or chain stores (where these commercial caches are so frequently placed) do not actually own the land they are located on, or the parking lots. These are typically leased long term from the land owner/builder/developer. Not saying that it's right... just sayin.... the Walmart corporation (for one example) doesn't 'own' the area, they lease it. So technically, you don't need permission from them, but the actual land owner. If you have questions as to who owns a certain property, go to your county's tax accessor website, it's public info.

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I'll bet if you had conversations with those SAME managers of big box stores and asked if they'd be willing to give specific permission for someone to do a cartwheel in their parking lot, you'd get a 100% "No" rate too.

I'll have to get back with you on that. As I am physically unable to do a cartwheel, it never came up in conversation.

 

I wonder how many who have the authority to sign and prosecute would actually lack the authority to allow a cache.

From a Central Florida LEO perspective, anyone who represents the store's interests can request prosecution on the store's behalf. Once we submit the report with the State Attorney's Office, they'll dig deeper into the chain of command if the criminal opts against taking a plea bargain. as far as who has authority to approve a cache, I would think the same logic would apply. If I were to find myself stuck into the decision making process, (publish/don't publish?), I would accept any member of management as an authority. Others might want someone higher up, others might accept any employee as a Representative.

 

So, what I am getting is that there really is nothing that can be done if someone didnt follow the rules with placing a cache.

Groundspeak's guidelines require "adequate" permission, without offering their interpretation of the term. What constitutes adequate? Here in Florida, (as well as most of the United States), our criminal justice process is designed around the English system of law, which specifies that anything not specifically prohibited by law, must be legal. Now apply that to hiding caches on commercial property: The game itself is inherently legal. Our presence in a big box parking lot is also legal, within posted limits such as the signs declaring "No Skateboards, Bicycles, etc". Ergo, you could not be prosecuted for hiding or seeking a cache on a commercial property.

 

Under Groundspeak's Tips for hiding a cache is states, "Will it be on private or public land? - If you place it on private land, please ask permission before putting it there!". However, the Guidelines are a little softer, stating only, "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location.". Until the term "adequate" is defined by TPTB, the reviewers will continue to publish caches on commercial properties unless told otherwise, such as with Cracker Barrel. If you were to find a cache on a commercial property, and determine that the management does not want it there, you could shoot off an E-mail to the reviewer who published it, including contact information for that store.

 

One thing I'd like to point out is that most 'big box' stores or chain stores do not actually own the land they are located on, or the parking lots. These are typically leased

You are correct. However, when you lease a property, (at least here in Florida), you get certain rights, one of them being what kind of activities are allowed on the property. Kinda like renting a house. Even though the yard doesn't belong to you, you can still dictate, to a degree, who can set foot on it.

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I work for one of the national development companies. The typical deal is that the larger "anchor" store actually own their parcels of land. It's more cost effective that way. However, the small secondary stores are almost ALWAYS owned by private developers.

 

With all that being stated, my kids and I enjoy the P&G as much as anyone. We have a difficult time though being "steatlthy" as my partners are usually screaming as loud as they can "I'VE FOUND IT".

 

The point is to the OP, is that you're spending quality time with your child. That's the best present you can give her. Your time. :laughing:

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"The point is to the OP, is that you're spending quality time with your child. That's the best present you can give her. Your time. "

So did you stop to have an ice cream cone at the local dairy freeze or skip rocks at the local pond to see who could get the most skips or gather a bouquet of wild daisies for mommy? You're not limited to just caching.

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So, what I am getting is that there really is nothing that can be done if someone didnt follow the rules with placing a cache. As soon as its 'approved' by the admin here and listed as a cache, its a cache, until the owner finds it and removes it?

 

I am still kinda new to this, so I am not trying to make a fuss.. but doesnt that seem a little irresponsible as an organization? We have rules (like get permission before putting a cache on private property) but no way to enforce those rules, and even going so far as to check on them is discouraged?

 

Doesnt make sense to me. I guess the only thing I can do is make sure I am following the rules for placing a cache myself when the time comes to start doing that. Guess the 'honor system' means different things to different people.

 

Groundspeak is a listing site. They have no authority to tell people where they can or cannot place little boxes. The DO have the authority to delist any cache that breaks their guidelines. Groundspeak is not the police but they say what goe son thier site.

 

Now, if you find you need to, you can be the cache police if you like. But just remember how other kids felt about the hall monitors. But if it's that important to you......

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I work for one of the national development companies. The typical deal is that the larger "anchor" store actually own their parcels of land. It's more cost effective that way. However, the small secondary stores are almost ALWAYS owned by private developers.

 

With all that being stated, my kids and I enjoy the P&G as much as anyone. We have a difficult time though being "steatlthy" as my partners are usually screaming as loud as they can "I'VE FOUND IT".

 

The point is to the OP, is that you're spending quality time with your child. That's the best present you can give her. Your time. :laughing:

 

Cool stat lists! I might have o try that myself! :D

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I immediately remembered why I quit caching. This area was supposedly historic but there was absolutely nothing at the cache site to demonstrate this fact. To me, it was just a friggin' stump in the middle of the stickers, with cars whizzin' by.

 

Ever thought of taking up board games?

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There is a local cache hidden by a person who is a very prolific hider. The cache is in a strip of trees between a grocery store and a large commercial building. The cache page makes no mention of permission, just calling it a park and grab. I'm sure when the approver OK'd the cache they either assumed the owner had permission because they checked the box or if the approver asked, the cache owner lied. The strip of trees is not owned by the grocery store. It is owned by the company I work for who happens to own the large commercial building. Not that it really matters, but the grocery store actually leases the space from a real estate investment firm so the store manager is in no position to give permission for a cache at their location.

 

The facility where I work contains a significant R&D operation. They take security very seriously including cameras and other measures to determine if someone is entering the property at any point. When I noticed the cache on GC.com, I went and spoke with the facility manager who called a meeting with the safety manager and the head of security. None of them were aware of geocaching or had given permission for the cache. I was not aware but they were already having an ongoing discussion because the security systems had picked up an unusual number of people entering the property at one location, particularly during the evenings and weekends. This was at the spot where the cache was located. The next day I brought in my GPS and the 4 of us went to check out the site. We confirmed the cache is in fact on company property. I was also able to review some of the security tapes and recognized several local cachers. The facility manager decided to let the cache stay figuring that pulling it might result in unwanted bad publicity and that it is very difficult to keep people away from that part of the property. He's not really happy, nor has he given permission, but he figures he has the situation contained. He decided that if there were problems with cachers wandering further onto the company property, he'd yank the cache. So far, only a few cachers have wandered closer to the building and have been greeted by security and escorted back to the property line.

 

In the past month the cache was found for the 100th time. That means at least 100 people have unknowingly trespassed because of the cache owner. I've often been suspicious of some of the hides of this particular owner. They hide a lot of caches on the grounds of commercial properties, and only rarely do they mention permission. If they don't specifically mention permission, I skip the cache.

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.... In the past month the cache was found for the 100th time. That means at least 100 people have unknowingly trespassed because of the cache owner. I've often been suspicious of some of the hides of this particular owner. They hide a lot of caches on the grounds of commercial properties, and only rarely do they mention permission. If they don't specifically mention permission, I skip the cache.

I believe it is unreasonable to blame a cache owner for any illegal trespassing or other illegal activity on the part of those who seek his cache.

 

You are wise to bypass any cache hide that makes you uncomfortable, but you have no grounds to blame the cache hider when those who seek his cache trespass on your boss's private property. The cache hider was perhaps guilty of trespassing when he placed the cache. Those who choose to seek his cache, however, are responsible for their own behavior.

 

As with you, there are times when I have chosen to skip a cache hunt out of discomfort concerning the surroundings, or out of concern for my legality or my safety. Of course there have been other cache hides where I probably should have said no thanks, but I hunted them anyway. That was, of course, my choice, and I made it freely.

 

Other than your own excellent judgment, nothing about this hobby or this website guarantees your comfort, your safety or your legality when seeking a cache. The guidelines for hiding a cache represent only one layer of the common-sense filter. Your judgment as a cache seeker stands as another layer of the filter, possibly the most important one.

 

This entire hobby is amateur-powered; Groundspeak does not create the geocaches. It is very important to keep that in mind as you decide how far to proceed in your quest for each cache hide. Every cache hider has a different idea of what makes an appropriate location for a geocache – and there will always be a few at the lower end of the common-sense scale who use very poor judgment. The reviewers can’t catch ALL the bad ones; their filters are good, but they are not perfect. Do you really want to depend, then, on thousands of amateur strangers (cache hiders) to do your decision making for you? Or don’t you think it’s more reasonable to let each cache seeker be responsible for his own behavior?

 

Surely you’ve seen the disclaimer that is linked at the top of every Geocache page? It says, in big honkin' bold letters:

 

Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache.

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Well, all things considered, I'm still going after the P&G's. I'm also going to pursue all the other caches out there because it's a hobby that my entire family enjoys. It's not necessarily the cache that matters, it's spending the time with the family whereas everyone including the dog on occassion can enjoy themselves.

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I work for one of the national development companies. The typical deal is that the larger "anchor" store actually own their parcels of land. It's more cost effective that way. However, the small secondary stores are almost ALWAYS owned by private developers.

 

With all that being stated, my kids and I enjoy the P&G as much as anyone. We have a difficult time though being "steatlthy" as my partners are usually screaming as loud as they can "I'VE FOUND IT".

 

The point is to the OP, is that you're spending quality time with your child. That's the best present you can give her. Your time. :anicute:

 

Cool stat lists! I might have o try that myself! :anicute:

 

Thanks Willcox. Not as difficult as I thought it'd be. If I can do it, any old dark sith lord can! :)

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I think your experience is probably true across the board and around the country. I'm in law enforcement as well and new to this sport. I have read the logs on three caches that are located around a local mall's property with an eye at going after them. In each of the logs there are repeated accounts of run-ins with the mall security patrols and many negative mentions of being warned about trespassing. Can you imagine that?...being warned about prowling about on private property in the middle of the night by the people paid to protect that property. :anicute:

 

I have placed those caches on the back burner and will certainly not go after them after business hours - if I go after them at all. It boils down to how much respect we owe to the mall owners...we are certainly not "up to no good" and we probably won't do damage or cause harm, but these caches were obviously placed without property owner permission and we are openly acknowledging that in the log posts. How does our responsibility to be "Law Abiding Citizens" square with that? Just a thought from a newbie. :)

Edited by CrippledBlindSquirrel
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I think your experience is probably true across the board and around the country. I'm in law enforcement as well and new to this sport. I have read the logs on three caches that are located around a local mall's property with an eye at going after them. In each of the logs there are repeated accounts of run-ins with the mall security patrols and many negative mentions of being warned about trespassing. Can you imagine that?...being warned about prowling about on private property in the middle of the night by the people paid to protect that property. :anicute:

 

I have placed those caches on the back burner and will certainly not go after them after business hours - if I go after them at all. It boils down to how much respect we owe to the mall owners...we are certainly not "up to no good" and we probably won't do damage or cause harm, but these caches were obviously placed without property owner permission and we are openly acknowledging that in the log posts. How does our responsibility to be "Law Abiding Citizens" square with that? Just a thought from a newbie. :)

 

These are good examples of caches that need to be reported to a reviewer.

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All I can say is that very few people are like Walt Disney. I'm sure we've lost a lot of first timers because their first experience wasn't fun at all, but they likely didn't know that you had to do research before heading out.

 

The reality is that it will never change. So if you want to find better caches, you must do some research. It's the same thing as fishing or hunting. You just can't go fish or hunt anywhere and expect success. Use the cache maps and see where the caches are located with the satellite view. Look at people's favorite lists. You can find them posted on the better caches. Talk to people at events or in your local forums. The website recognizes the need for enhanced filtering and is adding an awards feature later this year.

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Ok I'm sorry. I don't usually vent but............

I found a lamp-post cache today that was in a zipper bag!

Yes a zipper bag, no container just a freaking bag!

Oh! and on top of that someone (other than the cache owner) had replaced the cache log with small legal pad sheets and the first one had a bunch of button glues to it!

There was a cop watching us and after I pulled away, he parked near it and stared at the lamp

for a second or two, then went into the store!

 

I wondered if he was going to look for it, then track me down!

I'm sorry but if a cop sees you pull a plastic baggie out from under a lamp post cover he might think you are making a drug pick up!

 

AAAAAAAAH got that of my chest!

 

Edited: because I typo a lot. Some times I think Miss Jenn is my long lost sister!

Edited by hockeychik.com
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Ok I'm sorry. I don't usually vent but............

I found a lamp-post cache today that was in a zipper bag!

Yes a zipper bag, no container just a freaking bag!

Oh! and on top of that someone (other than the cache owner) had replaced the cache log with small legal pad sheets and the first one had a bunch of button glues to it!

There was a cop watching us and after I pulled away, he parked near it and stared at the lamp

for a second or two, then went into the store!

 

I wondered if he was going to look for it, then track me down!

I'm sorry but if a cop sees you pull a plastic baggie out from under a lamp post cover he might think you are making a drug pick up!

 

AAAAAAAAH got that of my chest!

"Just say no" to LPCs...(sorry but I couldn't resist) :)
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I think your experience is probably true across the board and around the country. I'm in law enforcement as well and new to this sport. I have read the logs on three caches that are located around a local mall's property with an eye at going after them. In each of the logs there are repeated accounts of run-ins with the mall security patrols and many negative mentions of being warned about trespassing. Can you imagine that?...being warned about prowling about on private property in the middle of the night by the people paid to protect that property. :anicute:

 

I have placed those caches on the back burner and will certainly not go after them after business hours - if I go after them at all. It boils down to how much respect we owe to the mall owners...we are certainly not "up to no good" and we probably won't do damage or cause harm, but these caches were obviously placed without property owner permission and we are openly acknowledging that in the log posts. How does our responsibility to be "Law Abiding Citizens" square with that? Just a thought from a newbie. :D

 

These are good examples of caches that need to be reported to a reviewer.

 

Watch out, you might get in trouble with the other kids for being a 'cache police hall monitor'. :anicute:

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... I'm sure when the approver OK'd the cache they either assumed the owner had permission because they checked the box or if the approver asked, the cache owner lied. ...
You might review the guidelines. Take special note of the necessity for adequate permission. I would argue that no one 'lied'.
Not that it really matters, but the grocery store actually leases the space from a real estate investment firm so the store manager is in no position to give permission for a cache at their location.
Please take a read of Clan Riffster's post, just a few posts above yours. He does an excellent job of explaining why a store leasing space would be in a position to be able to give permission.
The facility where I work contains a significant R&D operation. They take security very seriously ...

 

... The facility manager decided to let the cache stay ...

 

In the past month the cache was found for the 100th time. That means at least 100 people have unknowingly trespassed because of the cache owner. ...

No one trespassed. The facility manager is aware of geocaching. He knows about the geocache on the property. He made the decision to allow the geocache to remain. He has given explicit permission.

 

That being said, your post makes a good argument for why explicit permission is not necessarily necessary.

I think your experience is probably true across the board and around the country. I'm in law enforcement as well and new to this sport. I have read the logs on three caches that are located around a local mall's property with an eye at going after them. In each of the logs there are repeated accounts of run-ins with the mall security patrols and many negative mentions of being warned about trespassing.

 

... we are certainly not "up to no good" and we probably won't do damage or cause harm, but these caches were obviously placed without property owner permission ...

That is not necessarily true. There have been a number of threads which discussed mall-type security chasing people away from caches which were placed with explicit permission.
Ok I'm sorry. I don't usually vent but............

I found a lamp-post cache today that was in a zipper bag!

Yes a zipper bag, no container just a freaking bag!

While those caches might not be your cup of tea, the cache owner would no doubt argue that the zipper bag WAS the container. While it's true that the definition of 'container' is kind of in flux, I suspect that a zipper bag would qualify.
Oh! and on top of that someone (other than the cache owner) had replaced the cache log with small legal pad sheets and the first one had a bunch of button glues to it!
Good on them. I wish more people would be willing to do a bit of maintenance when they see that a cache needs it.
There was a cop watching us and after I pulled away, he parked near it and stared at the lamp for a second or two, then went into the store!

 

I wondered if he was going to look for it, then track me down!

I'm sorry but if a cop sees you pull a plastic baggie out from under a lamp post cover he might think you are making a drug pick up!

Ummm, if he found it, he would know that it isn't a drug stash. The absense of drugs would be his clue.

 

With the possible exception of Chicago, baggies are still legal to own and use.

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:D Ahhhh, that is one of many great things about venting in a forum, it allows one to blow off some steam. Plus it usually creates some nice conversations - as long as the pitchforks, torches, tar, feathers and explosive devices are kept in check. In any case I usually get a good read from a vent.

 

Sounds like you just had a bad day and that's a shame. I have no idea what caching was like years past but I do know it is wide open to possibilities. If someone wants to go for numbers then there are a gazillion micros out there to do so. If you like deep hikes in the woods then there are a gazillion ammo boxes waiting to be found. The point is they are out there waiting to be discovered. How can any body gripe about all the multitudes of the types of caches they don't like when in most cases there are so many they can like?

 

Is there crap in caches, sure, the upkeep for many caches makes me think they have been abandoned. So if one can't go out every 6 months and restock then put them up for adoption. Heck I have a storage container in my trunk filled with dollar store goodies I bring with me to anything bigger than a micro and fill as I go. How many times have I read - would loved to have traded but didn't bring anything with me? Well if people have reached the point not to put the effort to bring swag then quit bi*ch'n about not having anything good in caches.

 

Be prepared - if you don't do research on the caches or at least bring the notes about the caches you are going after then quit griping about what you find or don't find. The formula is simple - Do reasearch and have you usually have multitudes of smileys. Don't do research and you have a frustrating time wasted looking for a cache that has 4 DNF's and hasn't been seen since 2006. You do the math...

 

I have had more fun taking my 12 year old with me caching. Don't throw the experiences you can share away on a bad day.. Do the homework first, plan the route or area and I bet you will see things differently.

 

Oh My ;) Look who's venting now???? B)

Edited by Headhardhat
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If I were to find myself stuck into the decision making process, (publish/don't publish?), I would accept any member of management as an authority. Others might want someone higher up, others might accept any employee as a Representative.

And this is precisely why the "adequate permission" debate will never end.

 

Actual "adequate" verification of the person granting permission's authority to grant said permission is itself very subjective and therefore certain verification by GC would be virtually impossible.

 

Furthermore i would think that GC's acceptance of the alleged authority figure COULD lead to more liability on their part.

 

As it is now, GC can deflect the verification responsibility back to the cache owner by saying "the cache owner gave us hisher written assurance (by checking the box) that heshe had adequate permission."

 

With any kind of GC verified permission scheme, if GC made a mistake as to whether the permission granter had the authority to grant, I would think they would be in a less advantageous position. (This opinion is not intended as legal advice. For a valid legal opinion please seek the services of a qualified attorney or your state attorney general.)

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