Do you cache for "the stats" or for "the love of it".

[+CapeDoc]

I appreciate comments that this is a false division, and as suspected most of us cache a little for both reasons. I acknowledge too that doing it for the stats is what some "love" about geocaching and that my terminology wasn't brilliant.

What I didn't expect is that no one has really said that:

Logging their own caches as finds, double logging finds, logging finds without actually finding the container, logging finds that your group did without you, etc did not annoy those to whom statistics are important.

Lastly no one has mentioned any nicknames for the cachers that have a less even weighting towards either of these (somewhat artificial) camps. No "geo-tickers" or "geo-jollies" (I know I am being facetious!)

[+Snoogans]

What I didn't expect is that no one has really said that:

Logging their own caches as finds, double logging finds, logging finds without actually finding the container, logging finds that your group did without you, etc did not annoy those to whom statistics are important.

 

I personally tend my own garden when it comes to this stuff.

 

However, it tickles me to death what some folks find to get wound up about.

 

Lastly no one has mentioned any nicknames for the cachers that have a less even weighting towards either of these (somewhat artificial) camps. No "geo-tickers" or "geo-jollies" (I know I am being facetious!)

 

I have coined the term "AGC" for the "Anal Geocachers Club."

 

I mean really, with everything else there is in real LIFE to worry about, why tax a brain cell to worry about some other person's logging ethics in the make-believe world of geocaching.

 

When someone else's questionable logging starts to erase my own finds, I'll be moved to care, but until then, I'll just be entertained by those that do already.

[+NYPaddleCacher]

it's a spiritual experience for me.

 

it is a leap of faith to simply go where the hider sends you. i always appreciate it if the hider takes me somewhere pretty or interesting, of if they give me a clever hide or some historical information. i care that each cache is a unique experience, and i prefer each log i read to be one in which the writer takes the time to write even a few words.

 

i've earned every find i've logged, but i don't give a wet slap if you hire a team of dedicated "hiders" to precede you everywhere you go and place caches every 528 feet along your path. of course, if you play like that, i won't care to meet you on the trail or anywhere else on the premise that you lack integrity, but if you play with a lack of integrity, the bottom line is that it affects my game not one bit.

 

i don't care if you play "cleared my radius", or "FTF attention whore" or "i'll place a micro every .2 mile and everyone will love me for giving them so many smilies" or "PULL! mark the coordinates, that's a micro" or "i'll fly to JAX and find one cache every six seconds" or "everybody see how many caches i've found!"

 

none of these things really changes my game.

 

i'm likely to abandon searching altogether if something catches my attention:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...a2-f9e5998909fa

 

One of the aspects of the game that I am enjoying more and more is reading the logs of others. I was surprised to find that the log in the link above was for a cache that I own (I adopted it from a popular local

cacher that left the area). I read the series of flask logs the other day and was inspired to try to link all my logs (I don't have actual links yet) when I spent an entire day caching on fathers day.

[+briansnat]

When someone else's questionable logging starts to erase my own finds, I'll be moved to care, but until then, I'll just be entertained by those that do already

 

When "questionable" logging gives other geocachers the impression that the cache is in place and okay, when it in fact isn't, that's where I start to care because it can affect me. If that entertains you, so be it. Glad I can keep you amused.

[+Snoogans]

When someone else's questionable logging starts to erase my own finds, I'll be moved to care, but until then, I'll just be entertained by those that do already

 

When "questionable" logging gives other geocachers the impression that the cache is in place and okay, when it in fact isn't, that's where I start to care because it can affect me. If that entertains you, so be it. Glad I can keep you amused.

 

Brian,

 

How often is that really an issue in your caching experience?

 

You and I both average a little over a hundred caches a year and for ME the issue hasn't come up once. I've been to nearly 120 geocaching events in 6 states from coast to coast and I've never heard this issue brought up in person. Not once.

 

You must have some real problems in your community if this is a real issue. I too would find it irksom if it were happening here.

 

So, what percentage of the time does the questionable logging in your area "give other geocachers the impression that the cache is in place and okay, when it in fact isn't?"

[+sgarrand]

I think I'm in the minority here but I am in it for the love of it only, not numbers at all. I have a life outside geocaching and I'm not hooked to the point where I need to have thousands of finds. At the moment I have 114 and I've been doing it since 2005. I don't cache in the winter (we have a 3 year old) and when I do go on the weekends we'll get anywhere from 1 to 10 if we go at all. I don't think my life or the sport would be any more rewarding if I had 5000 finds instead of just over 100. I have enjoyed each and every cache we've found.

 

Scott

[Mushtang]

I'm only into geocaching for the prizes you get for winning.

 

And the chicks.

[+DanOCan]

I suspect there are are large group who have a foot in both camps.

 

Yeah, that's me. Most times I cache for the fun of seeing interesting places, but there are times when I go purely for numbers.

 

However, regardless of what mood I am in I have to admit that my numbers matter to me. Not necessarily "how many" but "how accurate". I want my numbers to be a realistic reflection of my caching experiences.

 

When I see others do things that I consider "odd" such as logging a Find when only the magnet from a bison tube remains or logging an event multiple times it annoys me merely because the way I cache is the right way. (If I didn't think my way was right, why would I do it that way?) I don't really care because it does affect my stats at all, but it's like going to a BBQ and seeing someone only eating salads -- it's a sort of "what the heck is wrong with you?" sort of thing.

 

It's why I am happy I can always reject your reality and substitute my own.

[+CurmudgeonlyGal]

I have far too much to worry about without getting anal over their fun.

 

Ain't that the truth? (Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be true of everyone!)

 

 

 

 

 

michelle

[+tozainamboku]

When someone else's questionable logging starts to erase my own finds, I'll be moved to care, but until then, I'll just be entertained by those that do already

 

When "questionable" logging gives other geocachers the impression that the cache is in place and okay, when it in fact isn't, that's where I start to care because it can affect me. If that entertains you, so be it. Glad I can keep you amused.

 

Brian,

 

How often is that really an issue in your caching experience?

 

Briansnat has told many times the story of a friend who drove 100 miles to find a cache based on a false report of a find. Like the the twicher who drives hundred of miles based on a false report of a bird sighting I can imaging that this isn't much fun. It is also part of the game if you are twicher (or someone who plans geocaching trips based solely on others' reports of finding a certain cache). In reality there are few geo-twichers. Most people plan cache outings to find multiple caches and expect to get some DNFs. False logs may cause them to spend more time searching for a cache that isn't there but is unlikely to be the cause for wasting a tank full of gas. In the event that someone is trying to find a particular cache, they aren't going to go based on one suspicious looking find. People outright lying about finding a difficult cache is extremely rare. Generally it will be a log that says "We found where the cache used to be so we're claiming credit". If briansnat's friend drove 100 miles based on this log, perhaps they should take up twiching and drive a lot further to see if the reports of that Ivory-billed woodpecker are true

[+CurmudgeonlyGal]

I'm only into geocaching for the prizes you get for winning.

 

And the chicks.

 

Me too.

 

Oh, and the secret decoder ring.

 

 

 

michelle

[+doingitoldschool]

My most satisfying caching experiences have been when the cache is a bit hard to get too, the location is significant and the hide well placed, without being a bushcrawl or nano in a tree trunk. That is what keeps me in the game. I don't mind the numbers and easy caches, but they are like the snacks inbetween meals.

[+Totem Clan]

I cache for both.

 

I cache for the love of it first and foremost. I like the hunt. I also like cachers. I spend a lot of my "caching" time organizing events and/or classes or deal with other group related issues and preparing my next hide(s). It seems as though I almost have to plan to go caching to actually get time in the field hunting. Not that I'm complaining about that because I love all the other aspects of geocaching also. In fact it seems to make the time in the field hunting even better.

 

As far as the stats well the comes in afterwards. I can't say I cache "for" the stats, but I like looking at them afterwards. I've never gone after a cache just to add a stat to my account, but I always go back to look and see what I have done as far as stats go.

 

The things that bother me. Folks not logging DNFs when they should. Even that is not too big of deal to me for the most part.

[+flask]

 

 

One of the aspects of the game that I am enjoying more and more is reading the logs of others. I was surprised to find that the log in the link above was for a cache that I own (I adopted it from a popular local

cacher that left the area). I read the series of flask logs the other day and was inspired to try to link all my logs (I don't have actual links yet) when I spent an entire day caching on fathers day.

 

glad to be of service to you, or at least of entertainment.

 

thank you for your maintenance of some of the fine caches in ithaca.

 

as for brian, although i am not as vigilant as he is, i appreciate that he cares enough to maintain integrity of logs on the caches he owns.

 

while there may be some grey areas that maybe we oughtn't get het up about, claiming caches you did not find does not fall into any grey area and it cheapens everybody's log just a little to allow clear non-finders to claim founds.

 

each cache has its own personality, its own history, and the whole of the game is based on people actually going to those locations and logging in.

 

i like to think that at some point the boom of the giddy number-whores and sloppy placement tossers will pass and when the dust settles the solid parts of the game will come to the fore again.

 

before every poison-ivy-infested guardrail had a micro on it, i used to think a guardrail micro was funny. before there was a micro in every wal-mart parking lot, i used to think it was clever to stick one in every now and then. it was even funny to find one next to the dumpster behind the burger king, because at the time it was a joke.

 

nowadays people put these things out without the slightest trace of irony, because i's a cache and every cache is a gift to the community.

 

it ain't so. they only serve to instruct the new people that we do not expect better. more and more i find that the caches i loved are disappearing and they are not being replaced with anything of their caliber.

 

i rely on people like brian to hold the line and preserve the integrity of the game, if not the players.

[+infiniteMPG]

i'm likely to abandon searching altogether if something catches my attention:http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...a2-f9e5998909fa

Reading that log and checking out the pictures was a spiritual experience for me..... and purdy entertaining. But here in Florida the only ice we see in the lake is where we spilled our Captain and Coke....

[+Renegade Knight]

When someone else's questionable logging starts to erase my own finds, I'll be moved to care, but until then, I'll just be entertained by those that do already

 

When "questionable" logging gives other geocachers the impression that the cache is in place and okay, when it in fact isn't, that's where I start to care because it can affect me. If that entertains you, so be it. Glad I can keep you amused.

 

Brian,

 

How often is that really an issue in your caching experience? ...

 

Yearly in my area. We have to figure out what's bogus and what's not.

[+infiniteMPG]

When "questionable" logging gives other geocachers the impression that the cache is in place and okay, when it in fact isn't, that's where I start to care because it can affect me. If that entertains you, so be it. Glad I can keep you amused.

This was beaten up many times before.

 

If someone logs a find on a cache it's basically impossible to determine if the cache went missing BEFORE or AFTER they logged their find as there is no log to validate the potentially bogus entry with. If the cache is missing it's impossible to tell when it went missing. So really it's a physical impossibility to determine if the log was bogus if the cache is actually missing unless the log was entered after the owner validated that it was missing.... and if that was the case then it's back on the owner for not logging that fact online.

 

If someone enters a bogus log on an existing cache it can be validated that it's a bogus log but on a missing cache it's impossible to determine if the log was bogus (entered after the cache went missing) since there is no way to validate exactly when the cache went missing and the evidence went missing with it.

 

So what's the difference if you looked for a cache that went missing after the last person logged a find or before the last person logged a bogus find? You'd still be searching for a missing cache and that's the problem and it happens all the time. And unless you have a webcam or evidence when it went missing then it's debating something that pretty much impossible to prove...

[+derangedlunatech]

 

If someone logs a find on a cache it's basically impossible to determine if the cache went missing BEFORE or AFTER they logged their find as there is no log to validate the potentially bogus entry with. If the cache is missing it's impossible to tell when it went missing. So really it's a physical impossibility to determine if the log was bogus if the cache is actually missing unless the log was entered after the owner validated that it was missing.... and if that was the case then it's back on the owner for not logging that fact online.

 

 

I think the point is, though, that if I see someone logged a find on a particular cache yesterday, then I have a pretty high expectation that the cache will be there today when I look for it. However, if the last find is 6 months ago, there's a greater chance the cache may be gone.

 

Might not make much of a difference in some areas - but in more urban/heavily trafficed areas, I can see where it might make a bigger difference.

[+Team GeoBlast]

 

Brian,

 

How often is that really an issue in your caching experience?

..

 

It was an issue twice so fare this weekend in my area.

[jmythng]

[color=#33CC00i can see both sides of the (geo)coin. since i am new to this game i do want to build my stats. i, too, want to show that i'm improving my abilities to cache. that i'm getting good enough to eventually be able to sit on the porch with the dogs. a ftf, tb or even a geocoin would go a long way to building up my self esteem towards become a better cacher.

 

on the flip side, after spending a day out with someone who is in it for the love of the game it takes on a whole new meaning. when your in it for the love of the game there is no stress factor. i loving the game too but after 20-30 minutes of searching i'm freaking, they're smiling. i'm trying to find one and get it up on the boards(stats) and move on to the next. when you in it for the love of the game your not pushed for time. i'm trying to find one and am thinking about the next one. the cacher in it for the love is enjoying the hunt more

 

after spending that day with someone who doesn't log their caches because they love the game and the hunt, i completely understood the concept. when i feel comfortable enough, and i'll know when, my mind will have cleared enough that i be able to see the cache instead of just looking for it.

 

when your in it for the love of the game you seem to have more fun and loving it instead of just racking up numbers. someday i, too, hope to elevate myself to loving it instead of playing it

[+KBI]

I am amazed by those who insist on seeing competition where there is none.

 

The word “cheating,” as it applies to a cacher’s total number of caches found, is meaningless. There can be no cheating without competition, and Geocaching is not a competition.

 

I understand that a bogus log can cause practical problems in specific situations, but I do not believe that is what the OP was talking about. He seems to be referring instead to anguish over inflated ‘scores’ as they compare to others’ ‘scores,’ not inconvenience caused by misinformation.

 

As I understand the generally accepted definition of the word “competition” it is impossible to compete with another person unless that person has willingly agreed to participate. It’s like the teenager who revs his engine next to you at the stop light, then peels out, claiming he won a ‘race;’ it’s like two next-door neighbors mowing their grass, where one guy starts yelling “I’m winning! You’re SLOW! IN YOUR FACE!!” while the other neighbor rolls his eyes and goes back to enjoying the afternoon.

 

There is nothing to prevent two or more willing participants from creating an unofficial geocaching competition among themselves, of course, and that’s fine with me; I, on the other hand, don’t give a flying [handshake] about anyone else’s geocaching ‘score’ – and I care even less what they think about mine.

 

To be sure, another cacher’s bogus log might possibly cause me to suffer practical frustrations if it were to contain misinformation. Aside from that, another cacher’s questionably-inflated find-count tally can never “cheapen” my own find-count tally until and unless I actively choose to see it that way – and I see no reason to choose such a silly thing.

 

If Geocaching via this website were intended to be a competition, then the Powers That Be would have published carefully written and very explicit official rules defining what counts as a find, etc. There are no such rules; therefore there is no competition. The website owner himself has said as much, and it is intuitively obvious to most folks anyway.

 

If Geocaching via this website were intended to be a competition, then some system would have been created to equalize the smiley value. This system would account for the fact that some caches are so easy as to be findable at a rate of ten per hour, while other caches take an entire day or more to complete. This system would also account for the fact that some caches are so easy as to be spotted right away, while other hides require patient tedious searching, clever insight, or other mental talent. There is no such equalization system; therefore there is no competition. The website owner himself has said as much, and it is intuitively obvious to most folks anyway.

 

I have my own standards as to what constitutes a loggable find. My standards only apply to me. If anyone out there has a problem with the way I log my finds due to some imaginary ‘unwritten’ rules, then I say their quarrel is not with my behavior; their quarrel is with their own imagination.

[+derangedlunatech]

I am amazed by those who insist on seeing competition where there is none.

 

The word “cheating,” as it applies to a cacher’s total number of caches found, is meaningless. There can be no cheating without competition, and Geocaching is not a competition.

 

Competition is everywhere. Just because there is no competition to you doesn't mean that there's no competition in the eyes of others.

 

Personally I happen to agree with you. I really don't care what your numbers are, or whether you even found any of the ones you claim. Heck, I don't even really care what my numbers are (aside from, as I mentioned, wanting to see that I am getting better at finding those pesky caches!). But I fear you're falling into the trap of thinking that "my way of playing is the only way" - and that's just not true. Some people do set challenges for themselves (and heck - there are even "challenge caches"). Some people like to race for FTFs. Some people may actually be in competition with others (granted, that's a side thing to the main game itself). These are all forms of challenges, and there very well can be "cheating" going on in the eyes of those people playing that way.

 

It's like this (and pardon the implication - I mean no comparison aside from the basic concept) - I just wrapped up a short season of coaching t-ball for a group of 4-6 year olds. The rules of the game were very loosely applied as compared to anyone even playing softball in a bar league. If your focus was on competition, then there was tons of "cheating" going on. But that wasn't the focus of most of us - the focus was to teach the kids the basics of the game (like running to first base instead of third when you hit the ball).

 

Same kinda concept here I think. Whether there is cheating or not depends on what your focus is.

[+Crid]

Largely because caching gives me an excuse to go walking in the countryside and also because it encourages me to visit new places that I didn't know about. Prior to geocaching my walks in the countryside were pretty much in the same places. Now geocaching (and geomapping) has changed that and I'm regularly digging out the map to look for new places to go (or visiting the GC.com map to see what places have good caches to visit).

 

I've been geocaching for just over a year and have 78 finds so far. That's hardly a breakneck pace. Yesterday I did a cache in a wood that I've never visited before and that hasn't been mapped on OpenStreetMap. The cache was only about 3/4 mile from the car park, but I followed the trail to the cache and then followed in on as it looped around and eventually got back to the car park. A little over 4 miles in all. If I was in it for the numbers, I would have been in and out and on to the next cache.

 

That's not to say I won't do a happy little dance when I get my 100th find.

[+KBI]

I am amazed by those who insist on seeing competition where there is none.

 

The word “cheating,” as it applies to a cacher’s total number of caches found, is meaningless. There can be no cheating without competition, and Geocaching is not a competition.

Competition is everywhere. Just because there is no competition to you doesn't mean that there's no competition in the eyes of others.

 

Personally I happen to agree with you. I really don't care what your numbers are, or whether you even found any of the ones you claim. Heck, I don't even really care what my numbers are (aside from, as I mentioned, wanting to see that I am getting better at finding those pesky caches!). But I fear you're falling into the trap of thinking that "my way of playing is the only way" - and that's just not true.

Fear not. I have nothing against competitive geocaching.

 

If other cachers want to willingly compete with each other, that’s fine with me. I even said so in my post – maybe you missed it.

 

My gripe is only against those who attempt to impose competition-type standards upon EVERYONE, including those of us who do NOT wish to participate.

 

Cachers are always enhancing their experience by adding artificial or arbitrary challenges: Some cache only at night; some attempt to clear out a certain arbitrary area; some ignore the online descriptions and logs; some compete against themselves; some compete against fellow cachers.

 

In each case the self-imposed added challenge is voluntary. Any “cheating” that takes place is therefore only voluntarily observed, as it is otherwise purely fictitious.

 

In other words: a night-only cacher has no more right to accuse me of cheating because I cache in the daylight than a coords-only cacher has any right to accuse me of cheating because I prefer to read the cache page than a number-competitive cacher has any right to accuse me of cheating because I claimed a find he might not have claimed.

[+KBI]

Some people do set challenges for themselves (and heck - there are even "challenge caches"). Some people like to race for FTFs. Some people may actually be in competition with others (granted, that's a side thing to the main game itself). These are all forms of challenges, and there very well can be "cheating" going on in the eyes of those people playing that way.

The key phrase being “... in the eyes of those people playing that way.”

 

Geocaching is not a competition. The people you describe are doing things in which geocaching plays a part, but strictly speaking they are NOT “geocaching” – they are each playing a fun, yet artificially contrived game. They are competing against each other in a way that merely happens to utilize geocaching.

 

Anything can be turned into an unofficial competition, but only if the participants are willing – and for that matter, aware. If my next-door neighbor decides to behave as if he’s racing against me to see who can mow his lawn the fastest, and I happen to take a couple short cuts that he does not feel are “proper,” then that’s his problem if I never agreed to comply with whatever arbitrary standards he wants to push on me. I'm just trying to cut my dadgum grass.

 

Geocaching is only a competition for those who choose to make it a competition. If there is no competition then there is no cheating. I do not choose to compete; therefore any actions of mine can only be viewed as “cheating” by others if they choose to impose fictitious, unwanted and irrelevant rules on me. My personal logging standards are probably about the same as most folks, but so what if they were different? As long as those busybodies leave me alone they are welcome to gnash their teeth, wring their hands and call me names amongst themselves while I continue to mind my own business hiding and seeking hidden containers with my GPS.

[+KBI]

I fear you're falling into the trap of thinking that "my way of playing is the only way"

Actually, I had the same fear about you when I read this portion of your earlier post:

 

Things that annoy me:

• Caches where it seems like the COs decision to place the cache seems to be "Hmmm - there's no other cache within .1 mile, I better put one here!"
  
• Pointless micros (where there was ample room to put a larger cache to allow trading)
  

These seem to be two clear examples of trying to imply that your preferences are superior to the preferences of others.

 

... but then I felt MUCH better when I read the rest of your post. In fact, I think the remainder of your post is one of the most convincing and well-written essays I’ve ever seen on the subject of why folks should be left alone to play their own way, and why there is no reason to worry about so-called "cheating."

 

Good work.

[+KBI]

It's like this (and pardon the implication - I mean no comparison aside from the basic concept) - I just wrapped up a short season of coaching t-ball for a group of 4-6 year olds. The rules of the game were very loosely applied as compared to anyone even playing softball in a bar league. If your focus was on competition, then there was tons of "cheating" going on. But that wasn't the focus of most of us - the focus was to teach the kids the basics of the game (like running to first base instead of third when you hit the ball).

 

Same kinda concept here I think. Whether there is cheating or not depends on what your focus is.

Now it’s my turn to fear. I fear you're falling into the trap of thinking that “some people out there view this hobby as a competition, therefore I need to be careful how they perceive my caching activities lest I be accused of ‘cheating.’”

 

Baseball IS a competition. T-ball for 4-6 year olds is merely a variation of baseball. Sure, it is a far LESS competitive version of baseball, but one of the goals is nevertheless to score more points than the opponent – or at least to learn how to do so. You’re also teaching them the rules of competition. If any of those kids tried to shortcut a base run, claim a hit on a foul ball or stay on base after being called out, wouldn't you, as their coach and instructor, gently explain that breaking those rules is considered “cheating?” I certainly would. Cheating is frowned upon, even in friendly competition.

 

There is NO such competition inherent to Geocaching.

 

Geocaching is no more inherently competitive than piano playing, nose picking, shoe tying or sunset watching. Even if I were to choose to keep a running tally of the times I have successfully participated in those activities, that number in itself is not inherently competitive either. If some insecure yay-hoo decides on his own, without my consent, to race against me in his efforts to rack up successfully viewed sunsets or successfully mined boogers – and further decides to judge the accuracy of my own records and accuse me of “cheating” because I counted a moonset as a sunset, or counted a fly as a booger – then where does it say that I have to care what he thinks?

 

I’m not arguing with you. I’m fairly certain you and I are in almost 100% agreement. I just wanted to clarify.

[+Renegade Knight]

...It's like this (and pardon the implication - I mean no comparison aside from the basic concept) - I just wrapped up a short season of coaching t-ball for a group of 4-6 year olds. The rules of the game were very loosely applied as compared to anyone even playing softball in a bar league. If your focus was on competition, then there was tons of "cheating" going on. But that wasn't the focus of most of us - the focus was to teach the kids the basics of the game (like running to first base instead of third when you hit the ball)....

 

The focus was to teach the basics. Things out side those basics would be either cheating or playing something other than T-Ball.

 

Caching is the same. There is a lot of variation and there is room for a lot of variation. However there is a generally accepted set of rules that if you are not following them, you are doing something,but it's not caching.

 

Take T-Ball. The batter drops the bat runs up to the ball, head buts it to the ground, then dribbles it as he runs backwarda around the bases, body slamming those who try to stop him. After rounding home he does his victory dance and proclaims that the other team gets -1 point since he ran backwards. Same equipment. Some other game.

[+derangedlunatech]

Now it’s my turn to fear. I fear you're falling into the trap of thinking that “some people out there view this hobby as a competition, therefore I need to be careful how they perceive my caching activities lest I be accused of ‘cheating.’”

 

You would be grossly mistaken in thinking that. I "play" this based on my own preferences and enjoyment within the confines of the guidelines. Whether anyone considers anything I do to be "cheating" or not I really don't care about.

 

There is NO such competition inherent to Geocaching.

 

Again - for you perhaps not. Many people are competitive by nature, so the look for competition in whatever they do.

 

Geocaching is no more inherently competitive than piano playing, nose picking, shoe tying or sunset watching. Even if I were to choose to keep a running tally of the times I have successfully participated in those activities, that number in itself is not inherently competitive either. If some insecure yay-hoo decides on his own, without my consent, to race against me in his efforts to rack up successfully viewed sunsets or successfully mined boogers – and further decides to judge the accuracy of my own records and accuse me of “cheating” because I counted a moonset as a sunset, or counted a fly as a booger – then where does it say that I have to care what he thinks?

 

Who says anyone is comparing themselves to you? Where was it claimed that you were somehow cheating? You obviously care enough about the matter to step into the thread to state conclusively that your opinion is the correct one, that anyone playing any other way is wrong, and to declare to the world that you don't care what anyone else thinks. Well - some people may see the game differently, and might think that you are some "insecure yay-hoo" and they don't care what you think. Just think about it.

 

I’m not arguing with you. I’m fairly certain you and I are in almost 100% agreement. I just wanted to clarify.

 

I think we are in how we play. But I think the difference is that I realize and understand that the guidelines of this "game" leave a lot open for people to adapt it to make it the way they want it to be. And I personally wouldn't want it any other way. I know I sure wouldn't want someone who's style of cache planting is yelling "PULL" as they throw a magnetic key box out their window every .1 mile telling me that I am playing the game wrong because I choose not to do the same, and try to minimize my time spent looking for such "hides." (And yes, I know I have no hides yet. I have 6 made up and ready to place, but I am being very selective and doing a lot of legwork to try to make the locations where I plant them worthwhile). I know I wouldn't want anyone telling me that I am playing wrong because I don't drop everything and run out to get a FTF every time someone posts a new cache. (Yes, I have 1 FTF - I didn't trumpet it in the logs, as the best part of it for me was being the firs to sign the log and see what the CO put in it initially) And I know I certainly wouldn't want someone telling me that I'm playing wrong because I don't have enough finds. (It has only been a couple of weeks - I mostly cache with my family, and we try to take the time to enjoy the hunt and the scenery. Most rewarding to me so far is seeing all the little parks right near me that I didn't even know existed) I would expect that sort of consideration - and therefore I hold myself to the standards of extending the same consideration. In other words, if it isn't against the rules - who am I to tell someone else that they are doing it wrong?

Edited June 22, 2008 by derangedlunatech

[+KBI]

There is NO such competition inherent to Geocaching.

Again - for you perhaps not. Many people are competitive by nature, so the look for competition in whatever they do.

Again – and for the third time – if others choose to compete with each other, that’s fine with me. It is a good thing.

 

Again – and for the third time – that doesn’t mean I have to participate. That doesn’t mean I have to even care if one of them looks at my numbers or my cache logs and questions whether I’ve been “cheating.”

 

Geocaching is no more inherently competitive than piano playing, nose picking, shoe tying or sunset watching. Even if I were to choose to keep a running tally of the times I have successfully participated in those activities, that number in itself is not inherently competitive either. If some insecure yay-hoo decides on his own, without my consent, to race against me in his efforts to rack up successfully viewed sunsets or successfully mined boogers – and further decides to judge the accuracy of my own records and accuse me of “cheating” because I counted a moonset as a sunset, or counted a fly as a booger – then where does it say that I have to care what he thinks?

Who says anyone is comparing themselves to you?

The people in this thread who have expressed concern over the legitimacy of other cachers’ stats. The people in this thread who have implied that logs which do not comply with their personal standards somehow ‘cheapen’ the game for everyone else.

 

They’re not just comparing themselves to me. They’re comparing themselves to you, me, and everyone else. That is their right, of course; I just don’t understand the urge to try to compete with non-competitors, or to insist on seeing cheating where there is none.

 

Where was it claimed that you were somehow cheating?

No place. I never said anyone claimed I was cheating.

 

You obviously care enough about the matter to step into the thread to state conclusively that your opinion is the correct one, that anyone playing any other way is wrong, and to declare to the world that you don't care what anyone else thinks. Well - some people may see the game differently, and might think that you are some "insecure yay-hoo" and they don't care what you think. Just think about it.

Wow. Where did all that come from? You’ve apparently got me confused with someone else.

 

I never said anyone claimed I was cheating.

 

I never claimed my opinion is the correct one.

 

I never said anyone playing any way different from me is wrong.

 

If you believe I DID say any of those things, please correct me by linking or quoting one of my posts.

 

Better yet: if you're looking for a debate, why not counter some of the things I actually posted, instead of making things up?

[+flask]

i'm reading along, and i'm laughing.

 

i am not, however, addressing any of the points in the discussion at this time.

[MikeB3542]

I have to admit it...I cache for the numbers. It is the prime motivator to find the next hide.

 

That said, I have always been delighted on the places that I have discovered and the people I have met along the way.

 

Not really too concerned about "cheaters". They are only ruining it for themselves is how I look at. Besides, I suppose there are folks that would not like some of my logging.

1. I have logged temp caches from events,

2. Bonus caches where permitted by CO,

3. Waypoints for multi's where permitted by CO,

4. Archived caches left in place (got coords before hide was archived).

5. Premium cache finds where cache was upgraded to premium and I just have a basic subscription, where allowed by CO

6. Caches where the log/cache was not recoverable (frozen, fallen into hazardous location)

7. Muggled cache where allowed by the CO (I was out of town).

 

If the cache owner ever has a problem (no problems yet), then I would like to think that things can worked out. If that means the log gets deleted and I have to come back, then so be it.

 

If you are not the CO, it really is none of your biz. Of my 1400+ finds, the vast majority were found and logged by the book, but if my numbers bother you, maybe you need to ask yourself why they bother you. .

 

I would hate to see this all become a deal where you get dis'd if you have the wrong motivation, or don't have enough of the "right kind" of finds. There are days when an LPC or a big old ammo box under a pile of sticks is just what the doctor ordered!

[+KBI]

Not really too concerned about "cheaters". They are only ruining it for themselves is how I look at. Besides, I suppose there are folks that would not like some of my logging.

1. I have logged temp caches from events,

2. Bonus caches where permitted by CO,

3. Waypoints for multi's where permitted by CO,

4. Archived caches left in place (got coords before hide was archived).

5. Premium cache finds where cache was upgraded to premium and I just have a basic subscription, where allowed by CO

6. Caches where the log/cache was not recoverable (frozen, fallen into hazardous location)

7. Muggled cache where allowed by the CO (I was out of town).

Some of those I would log too. Some of those I would never log. But you know what? Somehow I just don't feel cheated by your logs. I can't seem to get worked up about it. None of those listed logging behaviors of yours takes even the slightest bit of caching enjoyment away from me.

 

If you are not the CO, it really is none of your biz.

Precisely.

 

... if my numbers bother you, maybe you need to ask yourself why they bother you.

They don't bother me at all. The fact that they might bother anybody is something I find very entertaining.

[+derangedlunatech]

Again – and for the third time – that doesn’t mean I have to participate. That doesn’t mean I have to even care if one of them looks at my numbers or my cache logs and questions whether I’ve been “cheating.”

 

And again - you care enough to post about it...

 

Who says anyone is comparing themselves to you?

The people in this thread who have expressed concern over the legitimacy of other cachers’ stats. The people in this thread who have implied that logs which do not comply with their personal standards somehow ‘cheapen’ the game for everyone else.

 

If they think someone is "cheating" then it may indeed cheapen the game for them. If you are not playing their game, then where is there grounds for concern?

 

They’re not just comparing themselves to me. They’re comparing themselves to you, me, and everyone else. That is their right, of course; I just don’t understand the urge to try to compete with non-competitors, or to insist on seeing cheating where there is none.

 

What do I care if someone is comparing themselves to me? How does it affect me or my enjoyment of caching at all? The simple answer is that it doesn't. But it is pretty apparent that it bothers you quite a bit. What I don't understand is why it should bother you if you haven't been challenged, called out, or even accused? If someone accuses me of somehow "cheating" at this then that is a personal issue between them and me - I don't take kindly to being called a liar, even more so when I have no reason to lie. If someone gets their underoos all knotted up over a find that I made, or the way that I wrote my log - that is their problem, not mine - and maybe I will just choose to solve the issue by disassociating myself from that person. It's them stressing out over it - not me, and personally my enjoyment of this game is not worth risking for someone concerning themselves over my logs or my finds. I know the truth, and that is all that matters to me. I have a pretty decent grasp of the rules, and I don't feel that it is anyone's place (other than TPTB, of course) to institute additional arbitrary rules on me. As such, I will ignore them and continue to play the way that I play, within the confines of the official rules.

 

No place. I never said anyone claimed I was cheating.

 

Then why get so uptight about the issue? If you are not playing the game, and you have not been accused, then this entire thing is really a complete non-issue to you. In legal terms, it would be ruled that you have no standing.

 

My concern in this issue and similar are that some people seem to appoint themselves to be The Official Keepers of The Right Way To Play and feel that they are somehow entitled to tell me (or others) that how I play, or log, or anything else is "right" or "wrong." As long as something is not violating the official guidelines, then it's really none of anyone's concern how I play. And that goes for everyone else playing as well.

 

Wow. Where did all that come from? You’ve apparently got me confused with someone else.

 

Nope - pretty sure I was replying to your post...

 

I never said anyone claimed I was cheating.

 

The previous question stands then. Why get so uptight over it?

 

I never claimed my opinion is the correct one.

 

No, but you made a lot of statements in absolute terms of what exactly geocaching is and is not. for instance, you have several times stated in an absolute fashion that "geocaching is not a competition." As I said before, to you and I and maybe most cachers this is true. But it is certainly not true for all.

 

When you make statements in the absolute, rather than as the expression of opinion, then you are, in essence, saying "this is how it is." And really, the only thing that you can base your "this is how it is" statement on is you preferred way of playing.

 

I never said anyone playing any way different from me is wrong.

Geocaching is not a competition. The people you describe are doing things in which geocaching plays a part, but strictly speaking they are NOT “geocaching” – they are each playing a fun, yet artificially contrived game. They are competing against each other in a way that merely happens to utilize geocaching.

 

In other words, if they are not playing your way, then they aren't really playing. A seemingly very clear statement, although to be fair it may not have come across as intended. Perhaps what you meant to convey was that they are indeed geocaching, but their side competition is not in and of itself geocaching?

 

If you believe I DID say any of those things, please correct me by linking or quoting one of my posts.

 

Done and done.

 

Better yet: if you're looking for a debate, why not counter some of the things I actually posted, instead of making things up?

 

Exactly what I have been doing the entire time.

 

***Edit meh - somehow I screwed up all my quote tags, and I'm too lazy to fix 'em. It's readable enough as it is.

Edited June 23, 2008 by derangedlunatech

[+KBI]

What do I care if someone is comparing themselves to me? How does it affect me or my enjoyment of caching at all? The simple answer is that it doesn't. ..... If someone accuses me of somehow "cheating" at this then that is a personal issue between them and me - I don't take kindly to being called a liar, even more so when I have no reason to lie. If someone gets their underoos all knotted up over a find that I made, or the way that I wrote my log - that is their problem, not mine - and maybe I will just choose to solve the issue by disassociating myself from that person. It's them stressing out over it - not me, and personally my enjoyment of this game is not worth risking for someone concerning themselves over my logs or my finds. I know the truth, and that is all that matters to me. I have a pretty decent grasp of the rules, and I don't feel that it is anyone's place (other than TPTB, of course) to institute additional arbitrary rules on me. As such, I will ignore them and continue to play the way that I play, within the confines of the official rules.

I share that point of view 100%.

 

No place. I never said anyone claimed I was cheating.

Then why get so uptight about the issue?

I’m not uptight. It only sounds that way because I am way too wordy. My father-in-law calls it “verbal diarrhea.”

[+KBI]

My concern in this issue and similar are that some people seem to appoint themselves to be The Official Keepers of The Right Way To Play and feel that they are somehow entitled to tell me (or others) that how I play, or log, or anything else is "right" or "wrong." As long as something is not violating the official guidelines, then it's really none of anyone's concern how I play. And that goes for everyone else playing as well.

Agreed.

 

I never claimed my opinion is the correct one.

No, but you made a lot of statements in absolute terms of what exactly geocaching is and is not. for instance, you have several times stated in an absolute fashion that "geocaching is not a competition." As I said before, to you and I and maybe most cachers this is true. But it is certainly not true for all.

... and as I said before: if geocachers are competing, then they aren’t just geocaching – they are doing something beyond geocaching.

 

I presented several analogies. Among them was sunset-watching: If I’m into viewing sunsets, I probably don’t give a hang if someone else out there wants to both (1) make some kind of competition out of it, pretending that I care that they’re competing against me, and (2) try to shame me into obeying some arbitrary rules in the way I document my sunset-watching experiences.

 

NOWHERE in any of that do I claim that my sunset-watching preferences are the only "correct" ones. All I’m saying is that (1) like you, I do not wish to participate in any unofficial competitions, and (2) like you, I think it is ridiculous, asinine and silly for those who DO choose to compete to criticize and judge the documentation procedures of those of us who choose NOT to compete.

[+KBI]

When you make statements in the absolute, rather than as the expression of opinion, then you are, in essence, saying "this is how it is." And really, the only thing that you can base your "this is how it is" statement on is you preferred way of playing.

For the fourth time: If folks voluntarily choose to compete against each other, that’s fine with me.

 

My position, however, is that Geocaching was never officially intended to be a competition, and that I am therefore not required to comply with anyone's arbitrarily made-up competition-style "rules." As stated before, my reasons for my belief are thus:

(1) The website owner has said as much;

(2) Basic Geocaching is nothing more than someone hiding a container in public, and someone else (hopefully) finding that container and (hopefully) logging their activity. Anything else is a contrived variation (please note yet again that I didn't say "wrong");

(3) There are NO officially published rules designed to regulate any such competition; and

(4) Every cache hide is unique anyway, so how can one person’s find count ever be compared to another person’s find count in any meaningful way?

 

That is how I see it. I never claimed my opinion to be anything more than strictly my opinion.

 

If my statement sounds absolute, then it is only because of the above-listed, very compelling reasons.

 

Your objection to my confidence and certainty, then, leads me to ask the obvious question: Do you, derangedlunatech, disagree with my claim that Geocaching is not intended to be a competition?

 

I never said anyone playing any way different from me is wrong.

Geocaching is not a competition. The people you describe are doing things in which geocaching plays a part, but strictly speaking they are NOT “geocaching” – they are each playing a fun, yet artificially contrived game. They are competing against each other in a way that merely happens to utilize geocaching.

In other words, if they are not playing your way, then they aren't really playing.

No, I didn’t say that at all. That is a grossly incorrect interpretation. I told you that before. Why can’t you accept it?

 

Yes, competitive geocaching is still geocaching – in the same way that nighttime-only caching or never-read-the-cache-page caching is still geocaching. None of those contrived enhancements are of my own personal preference, but that doesn’t mean I think they are improper, inappropriate, or "wrong." In fact, as long as those self-imposed-limitation participants don’t give me any trouble about the way I play, I remain happy to know that they are out there enjoying their own variations of my favorite hobby.

 

As I said before, however: those who choose to make geocaching a part of some other fun game are playing a different game than me. (Hear that? Not a “wrong” game. Just a “different” game.) It therefore makes no sense for them to gripe about the way you or I play -- or to monitor you or me to make sure we're not "cheating" -- when we're not even participating in their contrived version of the hobby.

 

A seemingly very clear statement, although to be fair it may not have come across as intended. Perhaps what you meant to convey was that they are indeed geocaching, but their side competition is not in and of itself geocaching?

Now you’re starting to get it.

Edited June 23, 2008 by KBI

[+CapeDoc]

From where I am sitting you 2 are disagreeing to agree. You really fundamentally APPEAR (please don't shoot me down for my subjective observation) to have the same approach to geocaching and have similar opinions to those who want to play different....variations....of the game.

And, I think I share your collective views...!

[+Radnord]

Different strokes for different folks...

 

While I do to a degree care about my numbers, it is to measure my own accomplishments and level of experience. I do not try to keep up (or ahead) with anyone else, and I couldn't care less how many finds you have, other than to guage your level of experience. The size of your number will not impress me.

 

That being said, what makes me jones to go caching is the thrill of the chase. I love the searching, and of course, the finding. I also love finding new places and trails that I never knew about before; this is what I like the most. I recently completed a map challenge and when doing so I was the eighth to find. That was fine with me. I know the FTF and congratulated him and was very happy for him. But what I enjoyed about the challenge was discovering every nook and crannie of the county and all of the cool places within.

 

That's what caching is all about.

[+Wild Weasels]

na

Edited June 23, 2008 by Goldeylocks

[+24kilo]

I'm in it for the fun of it, The numbers are there for goals. My wife and I have found something that we enjoy together.....and that our teenagers don't like(this is stupid). Which gives us time alone do what we like together.

I do have to admit that the micro spew does get boring sometimes, but we aren't ones to not bush beat on a nice day. weather your into it for the numbers or the fun, One thing about it, your your out there enjoying it.

[Geo Quest]

I do it to find new, interesting places I would not have found otherwise. Finding the cache is actually secondary to the location so I don't care about stats at all.

[+derangedlunatech]

 

Your objection to my confidence and certainty, then, leads me to ask the obvious question: Do you, derangedlunatech, disagree with my claim that Geocaching is not intended to be a competition?

 

 

My disagreement comes only from the way that you assert some of your statements, as I illustrated.

 

And I will restate - there are too many people who seem to be self appointed judges of how the game should or should not be played, and I object to that in and of itself. The rules, such as they are, leave much open to allow for different styles of play - all of them equally valid, and all should be accepted in a "live and let live" way. That's all I'm saying - and I think that is all that you are saying also. You're just saying it more....pointedly.

 

I don't really care if someone is comparing their numbers to mine and laughing. I don't care if someone DNF'd a cache the same day that I found it, and think I'm cheating. I really don't care whether someone likes my log or not. All 3 are completely insignificant to me, and I refuse to get my knickers knotted over them, or even grace their position with any of my time.

[+crockett3663]

Right now, I'm kind of in it for both: numbers and just for the love of it. My wife doesn't really have an interest, and our youngest son is only 4 years old, so he'd too young to grasp the concept just yet. So this is really a hobby for my 9 year old and myself.

 

As a 9 year old boy, he likes to find the ammo boxes filled with little toys that he can take. For me, I get a thrill just out of making the find. When I first started this hobby about a month ago, I heard about micros and how they were nothing more than a tiny container with a log. At first I thought that was kinda lame. Now that I'm finding bunches of them, I'm cool with just logging the find. I haven't come across any coins as of yet, but that's OK since I don't have any to leave yet, so I don't want to be taking those.

 

Right now I want to log as many finds as I can so I don't feel like such a rookie on this and other geocaching boards as well. Maybe when I hit a milestone or two I'll begin to feel different, but for now, it's getting the numbers and making the find.

[+tozainamboku]

From where I am sitting you 2 are disagreeing to agree. You really fundamentally APPEAR (please don't shoot me down for my subjective observation) to have the same approach to geocaching and have similar opinions to those who want to play different....variations....of the game.

And, I think I share your collective views...!

Thanks for replying. I've been reading the "discussion" between KBI and derangedlunatech and wondering what the OP must be thinking. You asked a simple question of whether people are in it for the numbers or if they geocache only for enjoyment. I doubt you thought it would end up with a shouting matching over who is telling others how to play the game. It's pretty clear to me that some people post in the forums because they have something to say while others simply post to get their post count up. But I'm not telling people how they should be using the forums.

[Skippermark]

I cache for the fun of it. Sometimes it's a few harder caches like yesterday that takes all day to complete, and other times it's hopping on a ferry to another state and doing a ton of park and grabs.

 

As others have said, as long as it doesn't effect me, I don't really care what others do as long as they're having fun. I'd rather be out caching than worrying about what types others are finding.

[+KBI]

Your objection to my confidence and certainty, then, leads me to ask the obvious question: Do you, derangedlunatech, disagree with my claim that Geocaching is not intended to be a competition?

My disagreement comes only from the way that you assert some of your statements, as I illustrated.

You didn’t really answer the question ... so in the absence of your response I will assume, based on your comments in general, that the answer is “no,” meaning you agree with my viewpoint that Geocaching is not officially intended to be a competition. Please correct me if that assumption is incorrect.

 

Presumably, then, you also agree with my itemized list of reasons for my belief.

 

Further, you should therefore no longer have any reasonable objection to me wording my opinion, as you somehow perceived it, “in the absolute,” and you should consequently be willing to admit that I am NOT trying to force my “preferred way of playing” on anyone, as you said before:

 

When you make statements in the absolute, rather than as the expression of opinion, then you are, in essence, saying "this is how it is." And really, the only thing that you can base your "this is how it is" statement on is you preferred way of playing.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

And I will restate - there are too many people who seem to be self appointed judges of how the game should or should not be played, and I object to that in and of itself.

I agree completely – and if you are putting me in that category, then you still haven’t understood me.

 

For the ... let’s see, oh what is it now ... the fifth time: If geocachers want to compete with each other, that is fine with me. Nowhere in this thread have I preached how the game “should or should not be played.” I invited you to show me where I have tried to dictate to others how they should play, and you failed to do so. My comments deal only with the stated attitudes of those who take it upon themselves to attempt to tell us (you and me and all the other non-competitors) how to play – NOT with whether or not they should be “allowed” to compete with each other.

 

Five repeats should really be enough ... so in the hope of avoiding a sixth repeat of all this, please allow me to attempt to clarify my point even more clearly:

 

This is what I am NOT saying (even though you keep telling me that I am):

“Geocaching was never intended to be a competition; therefore no geocachers should ever compete with each other.”

“It is KBI’s preference not to compete; therefore no geocachers should ever compete with each other.”

 

I repeat: I have never said those things, and those statements do not in any way represent my point of view.

 

This is what I AM saying:

“Geocaching was never intended to be a competition; therefore those who choose to make it into a makeshift and artificially contrived competition have no logical or legitimate basis for accusing non-competitors of ‘cheating.’”

 

See the difference yet?

 

The rules, such as they are, leave much open to allow for different styles of play - all of them equally valid, and all should be accepted in a "live and let live" way. That's all I'm saying - and I think that is all that you are saying also. You're just saying it more....pointedly.

I suppose so ... so what’s the problem? So what if I’m stating your point of view more pointedly than you might have said it yourself? We’re obviously on the same team, so what say we stop throwing rocks at each other?

 

So what if I post differently compared to you? Please consider tossing a little of that "live and let live" in my direction.

[1Ladybugmom]

Man- I wish I would had been reading the Forums more frequently. Before the thread changed, I was thinking about why I go caching.

 

1. I cache because I spend time with my daughter (1Ladybuggal).

2. We have fun.

3. I get to Talk with her.

4. We have fun.

5. We take along her friends and I get to Talk with them.

6. We have fun.

7. We get to walk around and learn about the areas.

8. We have fun.

 

I try to log my finds; she's gotten tired of writing. Someday, she can look at my logs and write, (if she chooses).

 

1Ladybugmom

[+WebChimp]

A quick look at my stats will tell you that I'm not in this for numbers.

 

Posts: 26,729

Joined: 14-September 01

 

Days since joining: 2,490

Average posts per day: 10.73

 

I'd say you're in it for the numbers.

[+WebChimp]

 

If you are "for the stats" what behavior annoys you? Do others "cheat"?

 

I like seeing my "found" number go up, but not so much so that I alter my behavior to cause it to happen.

 

Not sure how to define cheating in a hobby where there are so few established rules outside of where you can/cannot hide a cache.

 

If you are "for the love" do you care what others do?

 

As long as it doesn't impact me in a negative way, no.

 

Are there any geocaching nicknames for those "for the stats" and "those for the love"?

 

Probably.

 

I suspect there are are large group who have a foot in both camps.

 

I would imagine so.