I'm excited about the GPS-enabled iPhone

[+jtomason]

Believe or not, this phone is not a truely GPS, It's assisted GPS. Just read the Apple tech specs.

 

May I suggest that you go back up and read post #9?

[raxxal]

Believe or not, this phone is not a truely GPS, It's assisted GPS. Just read the Apple tech specs.

 

May I suggest that you go back up and read post #9?

 

Well, post # 9 is refering to how assisted GPS works. My garmin GPS works fine when I fly, I love to see speed, direction, the estimated time to destination(ETA), estimated distance to destination(EDD), etc. These assisted GPS phones will not work at 30 thousand feet up in the air.

[Wintertime]

Well, post # 9 is refering to how assisted GPS works. My garmin GPS works fine when I fly, I love to see speed, direction, the estimated time to destination(ETA), estimated distance to destination(EDD), etc. These assisted GPS phones will not work at 30 thousand feet up in the air.

Post #9 refers to a Wikipedia article that says this: "Some A-GPS solutions require an active connection to a cell phone (or other data) network to function, in others, it simply makes positioning faster and more accurate, but is not required."

 

So why would a device in the latter category not work at 30,000 feet? Or at ground level, outside of cell/WiFi coverage?

 

BTW, the rumors are strong that the iPhone GPS receiver is from Broadcom--specifically, the BCM4750 chipset, which supposedly has performance even better than SiRF III. Anyone here got more info?

 

Patty

[+joinsmith97]

You may be able to use the new iPhone for Geocaching but the latest SDK license agreement states "applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes."

[Wintertime]

You may be able to use the new iPhone for Geocaching but the latest SDK license agreement states "applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes."

Ah, okay. But I think the comment "raxxal" made about iPhones not working at 30K feet wasn't a licensing or software issue, but rather a conclusion that iPhones need a server to obtain location information. I've never used Assisted GPS myself, but from what I understand from the discussions of the Broadcom chipset and the Wikipedia article, there should be no technical reason why an iPhone can't obtain GPS information solely from its embedded GPS receiver. As I mentioned before, I'm hoping that someone here has more definitive information. But maybe no one outside of Apple will until July 11th.

 

Patty

[lewis82]

Well it's the same a in every OS contract where they state that their Operating System can't be used in planes or in nuclear facilities.

 

They do it only so that if something happens (like a nuclear acident), it won't be their fault.

 

However unless a 747 pilot wants to use his iPhone as an on-board GPS, I guess nothing really important will happen. Is it really justified? I guess not. Apple is just taking some extra precautions.

 

And anyways, TomTom will be releasing an app for the iPhone, and through the app store. They said it was already working.

[+35mm]

35MM... can you expand a little on what hardware/software you are using?

 

OFF TOPIC

 

I have a Spirnt Mogul (HTC PPC 6800) with AGPS enabled. I use TomTom 6 to navigate to where I am going, Google Earth to get an idea of where the cache is on a map and I use Bee Line GPS to import and organize my waypoints. You can create several different databases with as many waypoints as you want (around 1000 waypoints in one database and it gets sluggish). I also use Bee Line GPS when searching for caches, it is very accurate and has a ton of nice features, like looking at cache information and hints offline. I also can go to GC.com to log entries etc. My batteries last a long time using this set up (longer than most hand held GPS units it seems). This truly is a one unit paperless solution. I am surprised more people don't go this route.

 

The biggest drawback to my setup in my opinion is it is not as durable as a hand held unit. However I am very tough on phones so I have Sprints $7 a month insurance plan that replaces a broke, lost or stolen phone no questions asked, I tend to use this about 3 times a year. As an extra bonus when your model of phone is outdated they will upgrade you to the new one when yours breaks.

 

If you are thining about going this route you may want to wait a little while because my phone is being replaced by the HTC Diamond (no keyboard) and the HTC Raphael (keyboard). You may also want to wait to see what aps come out for the new iPhone.

 

BACK ON TOPIC

 

AGPS is as accurate as GPS and does work with the phones radio (cell, data, bluetooth and wifi) turned off. It does not NEED cell towers, it just uses them for assistance.

[+Merge!]

Believe or not, this phone is not a truely GPS, It's assisted GPS. Just read the Apple tech specs.

 

Actually, that is incorrect, the iPhone 3G has GPS and A-GPS when GPS isn't available. So it's even better than just GPS. From the iPhone 3G webpage:

 

---------------------------------

How it works.

GPS (Global Positioning System) technology uses information from earth-orbiting satellites to find locations. A receiver estimates the distance to GPS satellites based on the time it takes for signals to reach it, then uses that information to identify its location. But the A-GPS (Assisted GPS) solution on iPhone 3G goes a step further, using a unique approach to find the closest satellites and more quickly identify your position. That gives you a faster fix on your location than with regular GPS.

 

Get the signal.

In addition to A-GPS, iPhone 3G uses signals from GPS satellites, Wi-Fi hot spots, and cellular towers to get the most accurate location fast. If GPS is available, iPhone displays a blue GPS indicator. But if you’re inside — without a clear line of sight to a GPS satellite — iPhone finds you via Wi-Fi. If you’re not in range of a Wi-Fi hot spot, iPhone finds you using cellular towers. And the size of a location circle tells you how accurately iPhone is able to calculate that location: The smaller the circle, the more accurate the location.

---------------------------------

 

Unfortunately, someone found this statement in the iPhone SDK (Software Developer Kit) User Agreement:

 

Applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes.

 

So using the iPhone 3G for geocaching may be dead on arrival.

 

-Merge!

[+sgarrand]

 

Unfortunately, someone found this statement in the iPhone SDK (Software Developer Kit) User Agreement:

 

Applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes.

 

So using the iPhone 3G for geocaching may be dead on arrival.

 

-Merge!

 

One could split hairs on that statement and say that on foot is not a "route" in the sense of on road driving and also being on foot is not mechanical in nature. I would definitely not classify the on foot path to a cache as a structured "route". Maybe we'll see a loophole in this rule? Hope so. If TomTom has software ready for the iPhone that may be route guidance right there.

 

Scott

[Wintertime]

You may be able to use the new iPhone for Geocaching but the latest SDK license agreement states "applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes."

GPS Business News has a theory about that restriction. They think it only prevents developers from using Google Maps APIs in their iPhone apps, and that developers would simply have to license map data from Navteq and/or TeleAtlas directly. GBN also points out that navigation software is one of the options developers can select when they download the iPhone SDK, which hardly makes it look as though Apple is banning the development of navigation apps.

 

Patty

[+RAMversal]

The line in the iPhone SDK is the same as the Google Maps API terms of service:

 

1.4 Appropriate Conduct and Prohibited Uses. The Service may be used only for services that are generally accessible to consumers without charge.

 

In addition, except where you have been specifically licensed by Google to do so, You may not use the Service with any products, systems, or applications installed or otherwise connected to or in communication with vehicles for or in connection with: (a) real time route guidance (including without limitation, turn-by-turn route guidance and other routing that is enabled through the use of a sensor); ( any systems or functions for automatic or autonomous control of vehicle behavior; or © dispatch, fleet management or similar applications.

 

http://code.google.com/apis/maps/terms.html

[+Renegade Knight]

You may be able to use the new iPhone for Geocaching but the latest SDK license agreement states "applications may not be designed or marketed for real time route guidance; automatic or autonomous control of vehicles, aircraft, or other mechanical devices; dispatch or fleet management; or emergency or life-saving purposes."

 

In short, they are locking down the GPS functionality. I'm betting subscription based. You pay for the GPS then pay again to use it. However I could be wrong (and hope that I am).

[+Renegade Knight]

The line in the iPhone SDK is the same as the Google Maps API terms of service:

 

1.4 Appropriate Conduct and Prohibited Uses. The Service may be used only for services that are generally accessible to consumers without charge.

 

In addition, except where you have been specifically licensed by Google to do so, You may not use the Service with any products, systems, or applications installed or otherwise connected to or in communication with vehicles for or in connection with: (a) real time route guidance (including without limitation, turn-by-turn route guidance and other routing that is enabled through the use of a sensor); ( any systems or functions for automatic or autonomous control of vehicle behavior; or © dispatch, fleet management or similar applications.

 

http://code.google.com/apis/maps/terms.html

 

One major difference.

Googls is a mapping solution. They are saying "don't use your maps as the base for your maps"

 

Apple is saying "don't even use our customers GPS for your own maps".

[Wintertime]

One major difference.

Googls is a mapping solution. They are saying "don't use your maps as the base for your maps"

 

Apple is saying "don't even use our customers GPS for your own maps".

So what kinds of navigation software might Apple be expecting people to create, if they are indeed prohibiting those applications from using maps?

 

Patty

[mjar81]

There must be a software developer that loves geocaching! One of them should create an application for the iPhone that specifically integrates with Geocaching.com. If I had that knowledge, I would!

 

I found this link on another post. I think this guy is 1/2 way there. Thanks to jbhodj & Drake!

 

http://www.ayefon.com/geo/index.cfm

 

Brettwurst, this guy's app is a web application which is inherently different. I think I remember him saying he was working on a native application, but I am as well

 

I'm not going to give a timeframe because I don't have a 3G phone (obviously) to test the CoreLocation services API. The iPhone simulator in the SDK has its coordinates locked at 37.3317° N, 122.0307° W (Apple's home campus in Cupertino, CA).

 

Hopefully in the next version of the SDK there will be a way to simulate movement. I've poked around the plist, app support, and binary files for the simulator but can't find a reference to how (or even if you can) change this at the moment.

 

I also haven't shelled out the $99 to test on a physical unit, so as time gets closer and we've got some better tools to integrate into the A-GPS CoreLocation framework and I actually get some code in decent shape, I'll apply for the developer/debug ability.

 

What features would you guys want in an iPhone Geocaching App?

 

[+KI4AOA]

My starter wish list:

 

1. Offline cache data

2. Compass with sun/moon indication

3. Offline maps - googlemaps -- both map and satellite views.

4. Easy PQ import from email

5. Easy PQ creation (i.e. one tap and auto setup a pq for caches 2 miles from current lat/long)

6. Ability to send logs to geocaching.com

[mjar81]

My starter wish list:

 

1. Offline cache data

2. Compass with sun/moon indication

3. Offline maps - googlemaps -- both map and satellite views.

4. Easy PQ import from email

5. Easy PQ creation (i.e. one tap and auto setup a pq for caches 2 miles from current lat/long)

6. Ability to send logs to geocaching.com

1. That will be handled with the application's SQLite database model that is built into the SDK and supported on every iPhone. Import them and they're there.
   
2. I'm thinking of a really cool 3-D rotating compass type graphic in its own screen for when you're hunting the cache.
   
3. This will depend on Apple's implementation of the mapping system. My app would probably hand this off to the iPhone app for navigation by placing a "pin" in the google map app and let it do its thing. You'd then need to switch back to my app when you're near the site.
   
4. Accessing the iPhone MobileMail.app email database shouldn't be an issue. So my app would just pull in the gpx file from your email (probably the most recent one or give you a selection if multiples are found) and store them in the database.
   
5. We'll see
   
6. Again, this will probably be handed off to safari or a WebKitView inside my app that uses your saved cookies from MobileSafari.app (if you're not logged in, you'll need to at that point)
   

[+KI4AOA]

The reason I am requesting offline capabilities is that ATT has poor coverage in many of the places I geocache. I understand it would be more complicated to do offline maps. The most important features would be offline cache data, and simple on the fly PQ integration.

 

I like to be able to spontaneously geocache. Right now it takes a little planning since most mobile browsers that I have tried balk on the PQ generation page.

 

I will be coming from the Windows Mobile world. I have juggled between GeoScout, Cachemate, and Smache for the past 3 years. Currently I use my pda/phone and the above apps to get the cache listings, and use my Garmin gpsmap60 to actually hunt the cache.

 

Since switching over to a mac, I would LOVE to see a mac-like app for geocaching. i.e. Something that just works. something that is EASY and just WORKS!

Edited June 17, 2008 by ki4aoa

[+Renegade Knight]

One major difference.

Googls is a mapping solution. They are saying "don't use your maps as the base for your maps"

 

Apple is saying "don't even use our customers GPS for your own maps".

So what kinds of navigation software might Apple be expecting people to create, if they are indeed prohibiting those applications from using maps?

 

Patty

 

Good question. We will have to wait and see.

With most handheld and automovitve GPSs I buy the map (often included with the GPS) and I can route, and/or see my position on the map. No more purchases. No more fees.

 

With Nokia on the N95 you pay a fee to route. With other cell phone makers you do the same. Apple looks like they are setting themselves up to follow Nokia and not follow Garmin, Magellan, Lowrance and others.

[mjar81]

... since most mobile browsers that I have tried balk on the PQ generation page....

 

I have tested the PQ page on MobileSafari.app and it works great. No Javascript incompatibilities or anything. PQ generation and management works beautifully on the iPhone.

[+northernpenguin]

Another issue for those planning to use the iPhone 3G as a geocaching appliance. Don't answer the phone while you are caching - the iPhone 3G does not permit multitasking for 3rd party applications. If you answer the phone, or change screens, the application will quit. Means the app developer better be REAL good at preserving state between screens.

 

Link with story

 

List of applications/types that are unlikely to ever make it into the App Store (note the GPS entry)

 

Link to story

[+DENelson83]

Believe or not, this phone is not a truely GPS, It's assisted GPS. Just read the Apple tech specs.

Uh, you can't have "Assisted GPS" without "GPS" on its own. If the assistance signals aren't available, the unit will just use the GPS satellites on their own.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_GPS