"Reserved" First to Find

[Dinoprophet]

I don't understand what is wrong in honoring any request they might make.

Some folks can't help being childish. It's how their parents raised them. The best you can do is pity them for their hollowness.

 

wait, wait! i can't tell which side of the debate you're on! it's hurting my head!

 

i was raised by parents who didn't let kids win games just to let them win. my dad used to offer to stop and teach me what i could have done differently, but anytime i beat either of my parents, i knew i'd earned it.

 

when i play games against kids, i give them the option of having me play hard or not. almost all of the time they want me to play hard. they know they're probably going to lose, but they cherish the idea that they might beat me on even footing. there's an honor and respect to earning your wins the hard way.

 

a twelve-year-old stands a little taller when you take him on as an equal and he kicks you from one end of the field to the other.

 

I think most of us agree with the sentiment of your post, but many of us see it as a non-sequitur. The birthday cake (or the less-childish wedding cake) is the best analogy this thread has produced, and it keeps getting ignored by those who insist there be a winner on every cache.

 

But you're right, it's hard to tell what is meant when there's a cry of "childish". It could refer to:

- letting someone win (though my view is still, you can't win if there's no contest involved)

- complaining it's not fair that you didn't get a chance to find the pretty box first

- overturning the gameboard because you don't like the game

[+BlueDeuce]

FTF brings a different image to different people.

 

To some, it's a race to see who can get there first. This image carries the assumption that the race is open to all and should not be "rigged" for any specific person. After all, is it a race if someone has an unfair advantage? The honor comes from getting there before anyone else.

 

To others, FTF has nothing to do with a race, and it merely means that someone signed the log book first. In this version, the honor can come from having friends that will let you log the cache before the general community.

 

So, there are lots of ways these two definitions clash. Once a person is locked in on one of the views, its tough to see the other one.

 

Different people play the game differently.

 

If you keep trying to bring some sense into this topic there won't be anything to discuss.

 

[+flask]

I don't understand what is wrong in honoring any request they might make.

Some folks can't help being childish. It's how their parents raised them. The best you can do is pity them for their hollowness.

 

wait, wait! i can't tell which side of the debate you're on! it's hurting my head!

 

i was raised by parents who didn't let kids win games just to let them win. my dad used to offer to stop and teach me what i could have done differently, but anytime i beat either of my parents, i knew i'd earned it.

 

when i play games against kids, i give them the option of having me play hard or not. almost all of the time they want me to play hard. they know they're probably going to lose, but they cherish the idea that they might beat me on even footing. there's an honor and respect to earning your wins the hard way.

 

a twelve-year-old stands a little taller when you take him on as an equal and he kicks you from one end of the field to the other.

 

I think most of us agree with the sentiment of your post, but many of us see it as a non-sequitur. The birthday cake (or the less-childish wedding cake) is the best analogy this thread has produced, and it keeps getting ignored by those who insist there be a winner on every cache.

 

But you're right, it's hard to tell what is meant when there's a cry of "childish". It could refer to:

- letting someone win (though my view is still, you can't win if there's no contest involved)

- complaining it's not fair that you didn't get a chance to find the pretty box first

- overturning the gameboard because you don't like the game

 

here's why the wedding cake is a poor analogy at best.

 

is there ever a race to see who gets it first?

 

ah, no, i thought not. i've NEVER seen a wedding that involved a race to the cake, so the idea that one would honor the happy couple by letting them eat the first bites of cake instead of racign them to it is just silly.

 

maybe the FTF is like the droit de seigneur....

[+ArtieD]

I don't understand what is wrong in honoring any request they might make.

Some folks can't help being childish. It's how their parents raised them. The best you can do is pity them for their hollowness.

 

Again with the sweeping generalizations and insults.

 

Have you already forgotten what Moose Bob said?

 

Different people play the game differently.

 

If what Moose Bob said is true (and it is) then isn't it petty and childish to call people who don't play the way you want them to play childish?

 

What you espouse is much like the kid in the sandbox directing the other kids to build a sand castle their way and if they don't...then well...they're a big doo-doo head!

 

Edited June 11, 2008 by Arthur & Trillian

[+Sioneva]

 

I agree. I also think it is childish and frankly very mean to start insulting the person being honored by implying that they are stupid and need to have their hand held or their shoelaces tied for them, because someone else chooses to honor them this way. If you can ignore the cache, why can't you ignore this thread, rather then outright insulting the hider or the finder?

 

Oops, time to call Vinny again...

 

what i'm doing HERE is having a great deal of fun with this issue. happily, this addlepated practice hasn't reached my neighborhood.

 

with a few well-placed jabs, maybe people will think twice about bringing it in.

 

you've heard of hyperbole, right?

 

Nope, I'm too stupid.

 

(That's called sarcasm, by the way.)

[+WRASTRO]

I don't understand what is wrong in honoring any request they might make.

Some folks can't help being childish. It's how their parents raised them. The best you can do is pity them for their hollowness.

 

Again with the sweeping generalizations and insults.

 

Have you already forgotten what Moose Bob said?

 

Different people play the game differently.

 

If what Moose Bob said is true (and it is) then isn't it petty and childish to call people who don't play the way you want them to play childish?

 

What you espouse is much like the kid in the sandbox directing the other kids to build a sand castle their way and if they don't...then well...they're a big doo-doo head!

 

Who the heck is Moose Bob? No wonder I can't remember what he said.

[Clan Riffster]

Again with the sweeping generalizations and insults.

Hi Pot. My name's Kettle. You're looking kinda blackish today.

[Dinoprophet]

I don't understand what is wrong in honoring any request they might make.

Some folks can't help being childish. It's how their parents raised them. The best you can do is pity them for their hollowness.

 

wait, wait! i can't tell which side of the debate you're on! it's hurting my head!

 

i was raised by parents who didn't let kids win games just to let them win. my dad used to offer to stop and teach me what i could have done differently, but anytime i beat either of my parents, i knew i'd earned it.

 

when i play games against kids, i give them the option of having me play hard or not. almost all of the time they want me to play hard. they know they're probably going to lose, but they cherish the idea that they might beat me on even footing. there's an honor and respect to earning your wins the hard way.

 

a twelve-year-old stands a little taller when you take him on as an equal and he kicks you from one end of the field to the other.

 

I think most of us agree with the sentiment of your post, but many of us see it as a non-sequitur. The birthday cake (or the less-childish wedding cake) is the best analogy this thread has produced, and it keeps getting ignored by those who insist there be a winner on every cache.

 

But you're right, it's hard to tell what is meant when there's a cry of "childish". It could refer to:

- letting someone win (though my view is still, you can't win if there's no contest involved)

- complaining it's not fair that you didn't get a chance to find the pretty box first

- overturning the gameboard because you don't like the game

 

here's why the wedding cake is a poor analogy at best.

 

is there ever a race to see who gets it first?

 

ah, no, i thought not. i've NEVER seen a wedding that involved a race to the cake, so the idea that one would honor the happy couple by letting them eat the first bites of cake instead of racign them to it is just silly.

That's exactly why the analogy is right! The point of the analogy is "It is possible to honor someone with the first <something> and it has nothing to do with racing". Why can't you make the tiny leap from "Wedding cakes aren't for racing" to "Honorary caches aren't for racing"? You're so close!

 

But despite your assertion, it seems some people here do want to race to the wedding cake. They're not satisfied to stick with cake walks, with cakes that can be won.

 

I'll expand the wedding analogy. This is like complaining that because there was a competition to catch the bouquet, and there was a karaoke contest, and there was a dollar raffle for the first dance with the bride, then letting the bride and groom have the first piece of cake is childish and a lame gimme that's going to ruin the nation.

 

(P.S. The cake is a lie)

[+sbell111]

El Diablo, it is you who do not get it and do not patronize me. I get it quite well, thank you very much.

 

We know people want to honor others. Fine. We get it.

 

We know that people would like to have said honoree find it first. Fine. We get it.

 

However the point is, when a cache is published it is fair game for anyone to find (and possibly get that FTF) and no amount of whining, claiming boorish behavior will change that fact. It does not make that cacher a bad person in any way. They were having fun and found the cache before the honoree. If having their fun somehow spoiled what others wanted, too bad...they should have thought of other ways to hand that cache to the person they honor.

Here's the problem that I have with your position:

 

The cache owner did two things: He honored someone and he gave a gift to the community (the cache). He could have simply honored the person by taking him out to dinner or even having an event, but those wouldn't pay long-term respect to the individual, like creating the cache in his honor, so he created a cache to honor the person. This cache not only honors the individual, but allows all of us to have a bit of fun finding and logging it.

 

The cache owner, in return for the gift to all of us, makes one simple request. "Please allow the honoree to find the cache first." He clearly identifies this cache as not being part of the FTF race. Given that the cache owner was kind enough to give the community this gift, can't we show him the respect of honoring his simple request? After all, if he didn't place the cache, we wouldn't be running out to get a FTF. Therefore, we lose nothing by not trying for FTF on the cache.

 

It is not the end of the world, despite what people like you would have us think. It seems to me that people like you are the uptight ones...we are having fun and it is you all who are crying about being "polite" in cache hunting.

I don't think that it's too much to expect adults to honor simple requests when presented a gift.

 

oooh, oooh! i've just had a BRILLIANT idea!

 

my next cache is going to have a reserved FTF in "honor" of someone i'll choose for their particular quality of finding a cache months after it comes out, if at all. someone who doesn't check their email, preferably.

 

the FTF will then have the right to name who the second finder will be, and so on down the line. if you find the cache out of turn, your log will not only be deleted, but you will have to verify a subsequent visit IN YOUR TURN!

 

this'll be fun.

Interesting idea, but I doubt that it would be approved without some serious tweaking. As it sits, I suspect that it has about as much chance of being approved as a cache that is only loggable by specific friends of the cache owner or a cache that includes a list of people who are not allowed to log it. These hypothetical caches are exclusionary and would likely not be approved. Also, the idea is rife with the potential for abuse. I could hide a cache that ignores the guidelines, but exclude cachers that might 'turn me in'.

[Mr.Yuck]

I don't understand what is wrong in honoring any request they might make.

Some folks can't help being childish. It's how their parents raised them. The best you can do is pity them for their hollowness.

 

Again with the sweeping generalizations and insults.

 

Have you already forgotten what Moose Bob said?

 

Different people play the game differently.

 

If what Moose Bob said is true (and it is) then isn't it petty and childish to call people who don't play the way you want them to play childish?

 

What you espouse is much like the kid in the sandbox directing the other kids to build a sand castle their way and if they don't...then well...they're a big doo-doo head!

 

Who the heck is Moose Bob? No wonder I can't remember what he said.

 

Don't ask me, I have Moose Bob on ignore. He tends to annoy me. Sponge Bob, he's OK.

[+ArtieD]

The cache owner, in return for the gift to all of us, makes one simple request. "Please allow the honoree to find the cache first." He clearly identifies this cache as not being part of the FTF race. Given that the cache owner was kind enough to give the community this gift, can't we show him the respect of honoring his simple request? After all, if he didn't place the cache, we wouldn't be running out to get a FTF. Therefore, we lose nothing by not trying for FTF on the cache.

 

There is the crux of the problem. He cannot say that this particular cache is not part of the FTF race if it was indeed published as a simple cache.

 

Once published, any cache is fair game.

 

I'll be danged if I sit there for possibly days to let someone find it in their own sweet time while both I and possibly a half a dozen others have to twiddle our thumbs.

[+sbell111]

The cache owner, in return for the gift to all of us, makes one simple request. "Please allow the honoree to find the cache first." He clearly identifies this cache as not being part of the FTF race. Given that the cache owner was kind enough to give the community this gift, can't we show him the respect of honoring his simple request? After all, if he didn't place the cache, we wouldn't be running out to get a FTF. Therefore, we lose nothing by not trying for FTF on the cache.

There is the crux of the problem. He cannot say that this particular cache is not part of the FTF race if it was indeed published as a simple cache.

 

Once published, any cache is fair game.

 

I'll be danged if I sit there for possibly days to let someone find it in their own sweet time while both I and possibly a half a dozen others have to twiddle our thumbs.

Why?

 

Why must you rush out and find that cache immediately? Why can't you not look for it for a few days?

 

Does it drive you crazy to see the presents under the tree, but not be able to open them until after breakfast on Christmas morning?

Edited June 11, 2008 by sbell111

[+ArtieD]

Why?

 

Why must you rush out and find that cache immediately? Why can't you not look for it for a few days?

 

Does it drive you crazy to see the presents under the tree, but not be able to open them until after breakfast on Christmas morning?

 

Why? Many others and I choose to, that's why.

 

You may not see the point of the FTF race as it were, but we do. It's fun...an adrenaline rush, so to speak, to go after that cache, hoping to be able to sign that #1 spot.

 

Why do you feel that others must play the game in the way you like?

[+Stargazer22]

I don't see anything wrong with a polite request to let an honoree find a cache first.

 

Requests like these are seldom and may happen on a small handful of caches.

Out of all the thousands and thousands of caches out there.

I believe that if anyone is too caught up in themselves and the entitlement they must feel in order to ignore a polite request, they need to have their OCD treated.

 

The ones on the other side of the fence on this seem to have lost sight of one aspect of this type of request. They seem to feel that it's a "race" and that someone MUST "win" the race.

How about all the other folks in the area that are honoring that simple request?

Doesn't that remove the competition for the "race" for that particular cache?

Now the folks who feel that they have to be first to find under any circumstances are the ones that are giving themselves a hollow "victory".

Oh yeah, I'm gonna run out and find that one as a FTF right away! Since everyone else is being polite and holding off, I'll have a great chance to "beat" them all, as they politely wait.

 

Not much of a victory. More of a demonstration of how entitled the finder feels.

In this case, finders who feel that they must have the FTF no matter what are the ones that are putting themselves in the position that they are winning a hollow victory. The very thing they think is wrong with the request in the first place. Kinda ironic.

[CoyoteRed]

I honestly don't know what is the big deal. A person puts out a cache in honor of someone, requests the honoree have first crack, and folks are up in arms? I simply don't get it.

 

Sure, the owner could send out the coords so the cache could be found privately, but doesn't that butt up against the "only real finds are those after the cache listing has been published" mantra to which some adhere? (...and I don't agree with.) Isn't a big draw of this site the community aspect? This dovetails nicely with placing a cache to honor someone--publicly. It would be kind of hollow if you show up at an award banquet and find you don't get the chance to see the honoree get the award.

 

Anyway, I don't get it.

[+ArtieD]

How about all the other folks in the area that are honoring that simple request?

 

Not everyone reads the cache page before hunting the cache, so your theory is bunk.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Arthur & Trillian

[+ArtieD]

Anyway, I don't get it.

 

It's quite simple, really. Publishing a free and open cache then telling others to hold off until Person X finds it is restricting other the people's game.

 

That is wrong.

 

No one has the right to do that.

[Dinoprophet]

Why?

 

Why must you rush out and find that cache immediately? Why can't you not look for it for a few days?

 

Does it drive you crazy to see the presents under the tree, but not be able to open them until after breakfast on Christmas morning?

 

Why? Many others and I choose to, that's why.

 

You may not see the point of the FTF race as it were, but we do. It's fun...an adrenaline rush, so to speak, to go after that cache, hoping to be able to sign that #1 spot.

 

Why do you feel that others must play the game in the way you like?

I see the reverse -- you're saying that people should not do anything that impedes the FTF game, which is peripheral to geocaching, not an essential part. You're telling other people that they can't do it the way they want because it prevents you from doing it the way you want.

 

I agree with you that unpublished caches are a better way to do this, but I do not agree that all cachers are beholden to FTF chasers.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Dinoprophet

[+ArtieD]

I see the reverse -- you're saying that people should not do anything that impedes the FTF game, which is peripheral to geocaching, not an essential part. You're telling other people that they can't do it the way they want because it prevents you from doing it the way you want.

 

I agree with you that unpublished caches are a better way to do this, but I do not agree that all cachers are beholden to FTF chasers.

 

Touché, but in the end if someone finds the cache intentionally or not before the person expected to, there's really no reason to complain.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Arthur & Trillian

[CoyoteRed]

Anyway, I don't get it.

 

It's quite simple, really. Publishing a free and open cache then telling others to hold off until Person X finds it is restricting other the people's game.

 

That is wrong.

 

No one has the right to do that.

Actually, the owner does have the right to restrict another person's game in relation to the caches he places. Owners do it all the time. I can place caches you might not be able to find simply because it would be beyond your abilities either physically or mentally. No one that I've heard of is so smart, physically able, or financed well enough to find every cache. This should be a clear-cut demonstration of owners being able to restrict the finders' "game."

 

Additionally, there are caches that restrict cachers is a number of ways. These are ALR's because the restrictions aren't requests, but requirements. This site had given cache owners the right to do that. No, any cache requesting the honoree be FTF is not a mystery because of the ALR as it is a request, not a requirement.

 

Third, the placement isn't, in fact, "free and open." The request is simple: let the honoree find the cache first.

[CoyoteRed]

Touché, but in the end if someone finds the cache intentionally or not before the person expected to, there's really no reason to complain.

I'm wondering if you wouldn't be happier if the cache were an ALR. "You must not find this cache before [Honoree], otherwise you are ineligible to log a find."

[+ArtieD]

I'm wondering if you wouldn't be happier if the cache were an ALR. "You must not find this cache before [Honoree], otherwise you are ineligible to log a find."

 

That would at least make the "request" a legit one.

[CoyoteRed]

I'm wondering if you wouldn't be happier if the cache were an ALR. "You must not find this cache before [Honoree], otherwise you are ineligible to log a find."

That would at least make the "request" a legit one.

Actually, the request--in this case actually a requirement--is already legitimate, but with an ALR the owner has the "hammer" of legitimately deleting your log if the request is not honored.

 

It would certainly be sad that owners would have to take such measures.

[+hukilaulau]

there's really no reason to complain.

Exactly! And that's the point you keep refusing to accept. NO...ONE...IS...COMPLAINING!

But This thread has given me an idea. I'm going to name you the "honorary" FTF on my next cache. It will be a cheap, hollow victory that you can't refuse!

[+Moose Mob]

This thread has gone full circle and folks are getting a bit nit picky here. If you have a NEW point to add, please feel free/. Otherwise, let's stop making these persoanl little stabs at each other.

 

[+ArtieD]

Exactly! And that's the point you keep refusing to accept. NO...ONE...IS...COMPLAINING!

But This thread has given me an idea. I'm going to name you the "honorary" FTF on my next cache. It will be a cheap, hollow victory that you can't refuse!

 

[jmythng]

my two cents: WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP! so what , there's the privileged cacher and the rest of us are the bottom of the barrel scum. i'm not allowed to have a FTF because someone is more special then me. what if that is the only available cache in my area, i have to wait for GOD to find it first.

 

since i joined two months ago, this is the third thread in this forum i consider a negitive image to a fun, interesting sport. as a newbie it tells me i'm not worthy to be here because i may never get to enjoy that thrill of have a FTF. WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!

 

now, that being said, maybe, just maybe, if they won it in a raffle then that would be acceptable. they paid to have that right.

 

who's gonna reserve a FTF for me and help me get more finds? huh? no one thats who. i want to earn my finds and that includes FTF. i sitting here wondering just how many people are out there helping each other with they're FTF, or regular finds?

 

sorry if i seem annoyed, but that's putting it mildly.

[+sbell111]

You will still get to find the cache. That's where the fun is. That's the point of the game. If all the fun was being FTF, we wouldn't need the 'permanence' guideline. We'd just place the cache and archive it as soon as it had been found.

[+Castle Mischief]

...since i joined two months ago, this is the third thread in this forum i consider a negitive image to a fun...

 

This forum and the actual activity of looking for Tupperware in the woods often differ greatly. Don't let the forum darken your mood when caching. This thread is a dead horse Möbius strip of two differing positions and two different viewpoints- a common sight on the interweb.

 

Don't let it get to you.

[+bflentje]

One day hopefully you will discover this is a game of fun. It's not a life or death matter, just fun.

 

Which is exactly why losing respect for someone who does pick up the "reserved" FTF, inadvertently, on purpose or otherwise, is childish.

[+ArtieD]

One day hopefully you will discover this is a game of fun. It's not a life or death matter, just fun.

 

Which is exactly why losing respect for someone who does pick up the "reserved" FTF, inadvertently, on purpose or otherwise, is childish.

 

That is a good point.

[Clan Riffster]

since i joined two months ago, this is the third thread in this forum i consider a negitive image to a fun, interesting sport.

Please don't confuse what you read in these forums as having much to do with real life caching. Consider this place a sounding board for the vocal minorities. In this particular instance, someone made a polite request on a cache page as an accolade to another cacher. Kinda quirky, but otherwise, no worries. Judging by the flavor of your post, I must assume that you didn't bother reading anything posted here, by either side. That's often helpful for folks who want to chime in on a subject. For instance:

 

1 ) WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!,

2 ) privileged cacher,

3 ) the rest of us are the bottom of the barrel scum.

4 ) i'm not allowed to have a FTF,

5 ) i have to wait for GOD to find it first.

6 ) it tells me i'm not worthy

7 ) who's gonna reserve a FTF for me and help me get more finds?

8 ) sorry if i seem annoyed,

 

1 ) Careful with your choice of verbiage. There are rules regarding harsh language in here. While it is certainly OK to express your opinion, you might wish to tone it down a bit so you don't run afoul of the rules. Your choice.

 

2 ) You do know how to use a dictionary, right? You should look up "Privileged", then look up "Honored". You should see a difference.

 

3 ) I hunted all through this thread for the post that called you "bottom of the barrel scum", even resorting to the search function. I can't seem to find it. Could you post a link? Unless, of course, your claim was just another overly exited exaggeration by someone who can't find it in their heart to honor simple, polite requests.

 

4 ) Did someone say you weren't allowed? I seem to recall it was a politely worded request, not an order. Perhaps I read it wrong?

 

5 ) Assuming there is some Omnipotent, omniscient Deity watching our every move, don't you think (s)he's already found it?

 

6 ) Brother, if a polite request to the caching community is all it takes to make you feel unworthy, you've got problems far larger than what can be fixed by rational discussion.

 

7 ) I don't know. Maybe someone who wants to honor something you did? Know anyone like that? No? Sorry.

 

8 ) Dude, it's OK. No need to apologize. You honestly don't seem annoyed, just bristling with entitlement. You'll find a couple like minded people in here.

[+the hermit crabs]

1 ) WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!

1 ) Careful with your choice of verbiage. There are rules regarding harsh language in here.

and

2 ) You do know how to use a dictionary, right?

There is nothing wrong with the word "crap". (Why people insist on typing "carp" is eye-rollingly beyond me.)

 

Here's what my dictionary says about it:

"crap n. Slang 1.Nonsense; bunk. 2.Worthless or shoddy material or work. 3.Junk; clutter. 4. Insolent talk or behavior. [< ME crappe, chaff.]"

 

Using the word "crap" should not be running afoul of any rules. It's just a regular word.

 

 

err, sorry for the topic drift. this "carp" thing is just one of zillions of tiny little things that irritate me

[+Moose Mob]

This dead horse thread needs to go away for awhile. Let's give it a few days rest, shall we?