What does "alter" mean

[+hirtle]

K... so we're relativbely new to geocaching (1 yr, ~250 cache finds)... though we should start placing some. We built and placed our second cache earlier this week, but got some questions back from the reviewer.

 

I replied to the questions (I think). While waiting for a response from the reviewer, I thought maybe some more experienced cachers out there could give me their thoughts. Without divulging too much information, in case the cache gets published... I'm wondering what is generally accepted as a definition for "altering" a structure.

 

Say, hypothetically, one was to use a screw into a piece of wood, which is part of a public outdoor scructure, would that be altering? I've seen some other caches out there similarly attached, but I also know that just because it's there does not mean it's right (referred to as prescedent in the guidelines).

 

Don't get me wrong here, I am simply looking for some giuidance (as this has been on my mind for a couple days); we have full respect for the sport and the rules which make it fair and fun. I guess I'm wondering if I should continue to wait for reviewer feedback or just remove, re-design and relocate the cache now.

 

Any comments or experiences would be appreciated.

[+res2100]

K... so we're relativbely new to geocaching (1 yr, ~250 cache finds)... though we should start placing some. We built and placed our second cache earlier this week, but got some questions back from the reviewer.

 

I replied to the questions (I think). While waiting for a response from the reviewer, I thought maybe some more experienced cachers out there could give me their thoughts. Without divulging too much information, in case the cache gets published... I'm wondering what is generally accepted as a definition for "altering" a structure.

 

Say, hypothetically, one was to use a screw into a piece of wood, which is part of a public outdoor scructure, would that be altering? I've seen some other caches out there similarly attached, but I also know that just because it's there does not mean it's right (referred to as prescedent in the guidelines).

 

Don't get me wrong here, I am simply looking for some giuidance (as this has been on my mind for a couple days); we have full respect for the sport and the rules which make it fair and fun. I guess I'm wondering if I should continue to wait for reviewer feedback or just remove, re-design and relocate the cache now.

 

Any comments or experiences would be appreciated.

 

If you put the screw in using a tool such as a screw driver, that is wrong. If you only used your hands, that's fine. I suppose it also depends on what you put the screw into too. That being said, I see many caches old and new that "alter" things as you say...it's not right, but people do it anyways, it's just that they either don't know it's wrong or they do know it's wrong and do it anyways and just hope no one says anything.

[+hirtle]

K... so we're relativbely new to geocaching (1 yr, ~250 cache finds)... though we should start placing some. We built and placed our second cache earlier this week, but got some questions back from the reviewer.

 

I replied to the questions (I think). While waiting for a response from the reviewer, I thought maybe some more experienced cachers out there could give me their thoughts. Without divulging too much information, in case the cache gets published... I'm wondering what is generally accepted as a definition for "altering" a structure.

 

Say, hypothetically, one was to use a screw into a piece of wood, which is part of a public outdoor scructure, would that be altering? I've seen some other caches out there similarly attached, but I also know that just because it's there does not mean it's right (referred to as prescedent in the guidelines).

 

Don't get me wrong here, I am simply looking for some giuidance (as this has been on my mind for a couple days); we have full respect for the sport and the rules which make it fair and fun. I guess I'm wondering if I should continue to wait for reviewer feedback or just remove, re-design and relocate the cache now.

 

Any comments or experiences would be appreciated.

 

If you put the screw in using a tool such as a screw driver, that is wrong. If you only used your hands, that's fine. I suppose it also depends on what you put the screw into too. That being said, I see many caches old and new that "alter" things as you say...it's not right, but people do it anyways, it's just that they either don't know it's wrong or they do know it's wrong and do it anyways and just hope no one says anything.

 

Thanks. I appreciate the opinion, and will be modifying the "plan"

[+Renegade Knight]

...Say, hypothetically, one was to use a screw into a piece of wood, which is part of a public outdoor scructure, would that be altering? I've seen some other caches out there similarly attached, but I also know that just because it's there does not mean it's right (referred to as prescedent in the guidelines). ...

 

It's going to depend. If the owner helps you screw it in. Great. You are good to go. If you have to drill it out and do it yourself probably not.

[+northernpenguin]

 

Say, hypothetically, one was to use a screw into a piece of wood, which is part of a public outdoor scructure, would that be altering? I've seen some other caches out there similarly attached, but I also know that just because it's there does not mean it's right (referred to as prescedent in the guidelines).

 

Unless you own the structure, or have the owner's permission to alter the structure, it is my understanding this won't be allowed. A lot of the caches hidden this way that you see may be grandfathered listings.

[+The red-haired witch]

It might also depend on what the structure is. Screwing something to an abandoned fence post in the middle of crown land forest is very different from screwing something to a wooden playground structure in a city park. The first is almost certainly ok (much better than screwing to a live tree, too), the second is almost certainly not.

 

One question to ask yourself is : does anyone own this structure and would they have a reason to complain if they found out I did this?

 

Its always best to go with options that don't damage the structure anyway. If you stick a small magnet to a metal post owned by the city and the city complains (or if the reviewer tells you that's not allowed and you have to change your cache setup), you can remove the magnet, no harm done. If you drilled holes in the post to put something there, you might end up with a fine from the city...

[+CacheDrone]

Since I am one of those "follow the guidelines" reviewers, here is my definitive answer that I apply across the province I review in.

 

Scenario = Result

 

If you needed to use a tool to place your cache or item related to your cache = Archived

 

If you used any type of fastener that causes any form of damage = Archived

 

If you used anything that permanently marks something that you do not have permission to = Archived

 

See LG: Off-Limts (Physical) Caches

 

 

You may use your hands, and only your hands to place a cache. Everything that you place must be 100% removable at any time (iced in being the exception).

 

A fence post in the middle of a forest is not abandoned, it is neglected by its owner. You may feel that you have adequate permission to place something there, but writing on it, screwing things into it, drilling holes into it is vandalism and against the listing guidelines.

 

Notice: I did not say to create. You can build a birdhouse yourself and hang it from a loop around a branch, that is fine. Nailing it to the tree is not. Same goes for a sign or marker or label.

 

Edit: For clarity, by place I mean so that it stays. Using a ladder, scuba or climbing equipment, or other personal access tools or equipment for your person is fine. I don't think that I need to spell it our further.

Edited May 29, 2008 by CacheDrone

[+ECplus3]

Since I am one of those "follow the guidelines" reviewers, here is my definitive answer that I apply across the province I review in.

 

Scenario = Result

 

If you needed to use a tool to place your cache or item related to your cache = Archived

 

If you used any type of fastener that causes any form of damage = Archived

 

If you used anything that permanently marks something that you do not have permission to = Archived

 

See LG: Off-Limts (Physical) Caches

 

 

If you own the structure in question, or have explicit permission from the owner, are all three of these scenarios reversed? Or do the first two still hold?

 

In scenario 3, does painting a clue on a rock at a waypoint for a multicache violate the guidelines? What if the rock in question is small enough that I can bring it to the waypoint site rather than using a rock already there?

[+The red-haired witch]

A fence post in the middle of a forest is not abandoned, it is neglected by its owner. You may feel that you have adequate permission to place something there, but writing on it, screwing things into it, drilling holes into it is vandalism and against the listing guidelines.

 

Notice that I said

 

"an abandoned fence post in the middle of crown land forest"

 

Technically crown land belongs to all citizens, so I own it... but so does everyone else in the country. Which is why one is not normally allowed to put up fences on crown land. So if I find an old fence post on such a piece of land, it most probably :

 

1) dates from back when this was private land, and now abandoned, or

 

2) is a fence that was illegally installed years ago.

 

Though I completely agree that placing things in such a way that they can be removed without leaving any trace or damage behind is best, in that particular case if you screwed a cache holder into the post and later had to remove the cache you could remove the whole fence post without breaking any laws... just removing trash from the forest .

[+CacheDrone]

Since I am one of those "follow the guidelines" reviewers, here is my definitive answer that I apply across the province I review in.

 

Scenario = Result

 

If you needed to use a tool to place your cache or item related to your cache = Archived

 

If you used any type of fastener that causes any form of damage = Archived

 

If you used anything that permanently marks something that you do not have permission to = Archived

 

See LG: Off-Limts (Physical) Caches

 

 

If you own the structure in question, or have explicit permission from the owner, are all three of these scenarios reversed? Or do the first two still hold?

 

Yes, all three reverse. But it must be documented.

 

In scenario 3, does painting a clue on a rock at a waypoint for a multicache violate the guidelines? What if the rock in question is small enough that I can bring it to the waypoint site rather than using a rock already there?

 

1) Yes it does.

 

2) How do you think people would know that you brought the rock to the new location? Most would assume that you did not, and even if you did it still isn't a good idea since the rock must of have come from somewhere. Picking up a rock at point A, painting it, then depositing it at point B is basically the same as painting it and setting it right back down again at the same spot.

 

Technically crown land belongs to all citizens, so I own it... but so does everyone else in the country. Which is why one is not normally allowed to put up fences on crown land. So if I find an old fence post on such a piece of land, it most probably :

 

1) dates from back when this was private land, and now abandoned, or

 

2) is a fence that was illegally installed years ago.

 

Still not a good idea Whether it is example 1) or 2), both are assumptions. While I agree that it is unlikely going to cause concern on crown land I don't believe it is accurate to assume that the area is free for any activity. People often make this assumption over conservation areas and provincial/federal parks too. How about we just agree that it isn't required to so in such a location and there are alternatives that provide the same solution?

[+ECplus3]

2) How do you think people would know that you brought the rock to the new location? Most would assume that you did not, and even if you did it still isn't a good idea since the rock must of have come from somewhere. Picking up a rock at point A, painting it, then depositing it at point B is basically the same as painting it and setting it right back down again at the same spot.

 

Not to be picky here, but what is the difference between bringing a rock from my yard that I have painted a number on and bringing a tupperware container with a number in it? At least the rock can be turned number-side down so that it blends in. A tupperware container is garbage to anyone but a cacher!

[+JDandDD]

 

Technically crown land belongs to all citizens, so I own it... but so does everyone else in the country.

Actually, that's one of the great misunderstandings, you don't technically own it, the crown owns it, that means the reigning monarch. Yes, its a technicality but in British common law, and that is the basis of all our laws, the crown bestows rights for our use of the land, we don't have any inherent rights. So we can only do what the crown, or the representatives of the crown (the government) decide we can do.

 

And your two assumptions about an old fence post are not the only possiblities. The managers of the crown land may themselves have installed the fence for any number of reasons. My place of work was on crown land and there were lots of old derelict fences that were placed by the managers of the land (by the way they managed it for the crown).

 

JD

[+CacheDrone]

2) How do you think people would know that you brought the rock to the new location? Most would assume that you did not, and even if you did it still isn't a good idea since the rock must of have come from somewhere. Picking up a rock at point A, painting it, then depositing it at point B is basically the same as painting it and setting it right back down again at the same spot.

 

Not to be picky here, but what is the difference between bringing a rock from my yard that I have painted a number on and bringing a tupperware container with a number in it? At least the rock can be turned number-side down so that it blends in. A tupperware container is garbage to anyone but a cacher!

 

Because bringing a container to a cache site is obviously not in its natural setting (unless you hide the cache in your kitchen ). A properly labeled container with a cache page inside should not be viewed as garbage.

 

When it comes to a rock from your yard, you would know and if you tell the reviewers then they would know, but unless you actually said on your cache listing "I brought the primary item to the cache site from my home" then anyone else would likely think that you wrote on a rock you found on site.

 

Still it comes down to "why do it?" when you could place a keyholder under the same rock. No one would think the wrong thing of you or geocaching in general if you did that. One always must consider how actions involved in our game reflect upon the game itself, the participants and those that allow it to continue unchecked. Tell me, what do you think when you see some spray painted pictures, symbols and words on a building? Graffiti? Or do you give them the benefit of doubt that the store owner commissioned some street artists to add some flair to the exterior walls?