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Protocol for Bomb Squads


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DUDE! Sorry the forum community didn't agree with your assertion that all should be good. The facts would indicate that you placed an ill concieved camoed container under a bridge and someone decided that wasn't a good idea. Namely the local law enforcement community. Don't try to beat up on everyone else just because your hide had a problem. The fact is that we ALL have to deal with the fallout from your hide. Wake up and admit to yourself that you might have made a mistake. It's ok. Don't blame the rest of the World because you weren't perfect. I hope everything works out ok for you.

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DUDE! Sorry the forum community didn't agree with your assertion that all should be good. The facts would indicate that you placed an ill concieved camoed container under a bridge and someone decided that wasn't a good idea. Namely the local law enforcement community. Don't try to beat up on everyone else just because your hide had a problem. The fact is that we ALL have to deal with the fallout from your hide. Wake up and admit to yourself that you might have made a mistake. It's ok. Don't blame the rest of the World because you weren't perfect. I hope everything works out ok for you.

Are you kidding me??? Are you freakin kidding me??? Where in the heck are you comming from? Why did you even post???

 

I am in absolute disbelief here...I dont want you to feel attacked so I wont go any further, but just gotta say WHOA! :huh:

 

I will not defend myself any more, its not what it was about from the beginning- But I am telling you, there are people reading this that have just got to be thinking what I am right now- I am just amazed at people. It is posts like this that have absolutley turned this topic upside down and inside out...I am truly amazed!

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I don't want to enter into any criticism of the cache owner, who appears to have had a very hard time of it (even though it could easily have been worse...). I have to say that I regard this hide as a mistake (although surely it should have been spotted by the reviewer), but the OP has been brave enough to face the geocaching community and to suggest ways of improving the response to similar incidents in the future. And there will be some.

 

The problems with these suggestions have been detailed well enough above, but there still seems to be an element of misunderstanding.

 

The reason for clearly labelling a cache is not to assure a bomb squad that it's safe. The label will make no difference at all: why should anyone believe what's written on the outside of a suspect package? But, once the cache is confirmed to be harmless, the label does indicate that the cache placer was not intending fake bomb mischief-making.

 

There's a similar problem with informing the officials that the item is on the site of a known geocache. Even if it looks like a geocache, who's going to stick their neck out and declare it safe on the grounds that it appears to be at a geocache location?

 

Recently, this happened in the UK. Cachers were turned back from a geocache area by the bomb squad. the cachers' protests that the "bomb" had to be a cache (as it was EXACTLY where the "bomb" lay) were turned away. If I remember correctly, even the cache owner turned up to reassure the officers, who blew it up anyway. Funny thing was - it WAS a bomb (an old wartime one which had been sitting right against the cache ever since it was placed). The remains of the cache were returned to the owner after the officers signed the log...

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This was not meant to mock a bomb or in any way resemble a bomb...did you read the cache page???

Maybe you missed my post. It was my job to train folks to make such devices. Having looked at the pictures of your box I would have to say it look suspicious enough to me to have prompted me to pump a few rounds into it to find out what it was or wasn't.

 

As far as making it public, any protocol like that would be public the first time it was used or taught. If you think criminals and terrorist don't study LE tactics in depth you are sadly deluded.

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The bomb squads don't have a choice. They don't have time to look up caches on the website, and always err on the side of caution.

 

One way to prevent it, is to have the local law-enforcement well informed of geocaching, as they are the ones that use the discretion to contact the bomb squad. The more cops that geocache, the better. Once the bomb squad is called, it really doesn't matter if they all are geocachers, the cache is toast. At that point you have 2 different forces against you; the person that called the police, and the cops. The bomb squad also has no idea if the initial caller was some crackpot who modified some device(geocache?) just to see what would happen. Plus, if they are geocachers and they get called out to a cache under a highway bridge, they might destroy it out of enjoyment due to it's poor placement.

 

BTW I really liked your cache container, as it looks pretty cool :).

 

The location, well... :)

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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Boy Im not exactly sure where to go with all this! :)

 

For one, half of you have got it all wrong...there is no way in hell that I would have ever wanted this public!...in any way! No way was this started for attention!!!- I didnt even really want to post it, at least so soon, but I thought it seemed feasible...Guess I am Naieve-Sheesh!

 

This was not meant to mock a bomb or in any way resemble a bomb...did you read the cache page??? Not one single person in this forum has any factual logisitics of the hide, the cache or my intentions. You have no idea of where it was placed in relation to the bridge, or the location of the bridge...It was actually in the middle of nowhere on hwy 101 with the closest town being a town of 1400, 15 miles away! being absolutley nowhere near a support!

 

If ANY container was found and reported, THE SAME THING WOULD HAVE HAPPENED!!!...(listen to yourselfs) if its a bomb call, action will be taken!...That is what this topic was started for, not for any other reason.

 

Think what you want, you think I should be banned, well thats plain silly! ...Makes me think aswell as some of you sound that This place is full of egotistical drama junkies that thrive on this crap and so call "speak their minds" just because its easy to sit behind your keyboards and knock whatever actions arise and can get joy from talkin down a guy to build yourself for whatever reason from what I see! Cause you are DEFINATLEY not gettin the big picture here!

What if the topic was started by someone else??? I think it would have gotten alot further!

 

Dang...I just dont get it! Nor do I even care any more, Im doin what I can do get the results I hoped for when I started this topic and for all you to just sit there and bash away- Keep it up, your makin yourself look REAL GOOD! :)

 

Actuall on-topic post to follow...

Let's be honest here okay? It doesn't matter what the cache was intended or not intended to be. The placement was ill conceived as perceived not just by the geocaching community, but also by the local law enforcement. There's a reason for the guidelines... they were put there after these very incidents in the first place.

 

That being said, if you had expected to rally support in these forums... I really don't know what to tell you. Perhaps you should back up a couple of steps and really take a look at what can be considered poor judgement and take the time to rethink why you thought the placement was a good idea versus why everybody else disagrees.

 

I hope everything works out for you, but for every action, there is a reaction. It just doesn't necessarily translate to something good. Treat this as a life lesson and move on.

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...Are you really serious? Like law enforcement and bomb sqauds don't have anything better to do with their time than keep track of or search to see if what looks like it might be a bomb is really just a cache.

 

Even as a geocacher, I'd rather my tax-dollars didn't go to such a ridiculous idea.

 

It always gets back to basics.

The bomb squad exists to deal with bombs. Because we have bombs and because the system relies on regular Joe's to call things in, the bomb squad is also in the business of being able to tell the false reports from the real ones.

 

It may not be pratical to have them track every potential object that could be reported as a bomb. However it's well within their job description to learn how to quickly identify the real from the fake (and err on the side of caution). As a taxpayer and enjoyer of freedom in my activities and purchases...I'd rather they accept this as their job than have politicians start banning all the activities and harmless objects that get a bomb squad responce.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I think that if I decided I wanted to place a cache in an area that could be potentially sensitive to this kind of a situation....

 

Some areas are more sensative than others, but all areas have the potential.

A couple of weekends ago my town called in an out of town bomb squad to respond to a flashlight. Was that a bad call? I don't know. Was it in a bad spot? Probably not, any place humans go can see a bomb, or generate a call that demands the authorities respond.

 

For what it's worth the Federal Government is now aware that geocaching is harmless but can resemble activites that aren't. They are warning key agencies that they may need to be aware of the difference.

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I agree that informing law enforcement of cache locations is a logical, sensible thing to do. Unfortunately, this endeavor would be a continuous one, given that caches are always coming and going. I also agree with those who feel that it's a bit silly for the bomb squad officers to have "check GC.com" as an item on their checklists.

 

What I feel is the saddest truth, and many will disagree, yes, maybe I am wrong, that these guys who find their way into these bomb squads are macho-tripping pyros who will close down a whole metropolis and blow up an altoids tin just to get off on the explosion and wrap their actions up in the flag and post 911 hyper-vigilance.

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Let's see... if I were to bomb a place... I might create a GC listing with the coordinates of the bomb. Then, if the bomb squad looks it up, they'll either leave it alone or just go and open the container. Both results are what I would have wanted, right?

 

I think bomb squads are not willing to risk their lives based on a "non-regulated" index of coordiantes. Would you open a package that someone reported as a potential bomb if you looked it up on the internet to find something that says it isn't?

 

They have to follow their protocol and be safe. "Everybody goes home."

 

While I won't go as far as say it's a "stupid" idea like some posters who hide behind their computers, I will say that I doubt this would be a widely-recognized resource for concluding a package isn't a bomb. I will also say it was a good thought!

 

Kojones

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I have not even had a chance to review any of the recent posts, but I am home for lunch and have recieved several emails of which are great news!

 

I will elaborate in the later today, but so far the ball is rolling and I am right behind it!- You wont believe it! My day has just gone 180! Dont know what to expect from all this, but so far so good! :)

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This was not meant to mock a bomb or in any way resemble a bomb...

Exactly what does "resemble a bomb" look like? Maybe the old cartoon version of 3 red tubes tied together with wires and a clock? Or maybe a round black ball with a fuse?

Anyone can make a bomb to look like anything. I've seen them disguised as an ink pen. How powerful was that bomb? If it was carried in your shirt pocket when it went off it would have cut a person in half, except most of the half could have been scattered hither and yon. Seen them the size of a credit card that would take out abank vault door.

 

It was actually in the middle of nowhere on hwy 101 with the closest town being a town of 1400, 15 miles away! being absolutley nowhere near a support!

Do you think because it's "in the middle of nowhere" that a person won't find a bomb? Just to educate you some on bombs and bomb makers. The statistics on the bomb makers is they will make on average 15 practice bombs trying to fine tune their product before they ever place the bomb intended for their victim. They practice with these bombs in secluded areas "in the middle of nowhere". Of the on average 15 practice bombs they attempt over 1/2 do not go off as planned and are abandoned "in the middle of nowhere". So using the statistics if a bomb is placed in a populated area and goes off then there are 8 bombs laying around "in the middle of nowhere" waiting for someone to stumble upon. That means you have at least 8 times better chance of finding a bomb "in the middle of nowhere" than you do in a populated area.

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Are you really serious? Like law enforcement and bomb sqauds don't have anything better to do with their time than keep track of or search to see if what looks like it might be a bomb is really just a cache.

 

Even as a geocacher, I'd rather my tax-dollars didn't go to such a ridiculous idea.

 

Are you really serious? How much time and money does it take to call out the bomb squad and all their equipment, compared to doing a quick web search and using a little common sense? Yeah, let's call out a dozen cops, pull them away from the real problems, and let them focus for an hour or two on how to disarm a piece of tupperware.

 

Even as a taxpayer, I'd rather my tax-dollars didn't go to such a ridiculous idea.

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Everyone has to face a few important facts...

 

- The general public tends to be ill-informed.

- Ill-informed people tend to be afraid of things they don't understand.

- Government officials are ALWAYS in CYA mode.

- Placing a cache on a bridge is against the guidelines and a bad idea in general.

- Placing a cache on a bridge that has electronics (gasp) visible and no label is a VERY bad idea.

 

We're in a society that freaks out when someone puts electronic signs of cartoon characters flipping the bird around a city. Common sense and judgement have gone south for the winter and every geocacher needs to remember that.

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DUDE! Sorry the forum community didn't agree with your assertion that all should be good....

 

All should be good. When my cache was reported it was reported as a drug stash and got investigated for narcotics. None fone. All good.

 

What control did I have over it being reported for one thing vs. another? Zero.

 

The reality is that other people make decisions that impact the response.

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....You do realize you are going to be one VERY lucky person if you walk away from this without legal trouble? Sound crazy? It happens all the time now a days. Government is losing their patience for niave behavior at an expontenial rate.

 

Here in my state they are now charging fisherman out ice fishing when they get stranded on an ice flow and have to be rescued by a helicopter. Helicopter rides aren't cheap.

 

Remember the guys in New York with the little "Blinky" sign that people thought was some bomb scare. They basically tried to hang them. They DID end up in court....

 

In Seatttle the blinky lights were just taken down. No problem. Boston chose to throw a hissy fit over a prank. Two cities. Two choices.

 

Your fishermen are being rescued. The helicopters are not black, and not phoned in by somebody else saying "I saw these guys doing things inside funny looking shacks on the ice, I think they are terrorists". If somebody busts down my fishing shack door and blows up my tackle box I'm not going to be a happy camper. I'll be less happy if they then try to bill me for their "accidental" response.

 

IF they started banning everything the naive public (that's the public they are trying to protect with minimal disruption to their lives) uses in daily life that gets blown up because of protocol (remember protocal came about because there are real bombs). then get ready for a boring life. No flashlights, no exotic foods, no personal effects, no whoopie cushions, no ammo cans, no star wars toys, no laptops, no FAKE bombs for training bomb squads, no golf ball speed trackers, no traffic counters, no blinkie lights, no easter presents, to name a few things that have caused a response.

 

You should be throwing a hissy fit and helping sponsor an attorney to prevent the authorities from being anything but helpful. That you want to blame the guy for the response of others is amazing. It's how civil liberties are lost. Caching is a civil liberty. Yes we can be smarter about it but that's an ongoing education process.

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DUDE! Sorry the forum community didn't agree with your assertion that all should be good. The facts would indicate that you placed an ill concieved camoed container under a bridge and someone decided that wasn't a good idea. Namely the local law enforcement community. Don't try to beat up on everyone else just because your hide had a problem. The fact is that we ALL have to deal with the fallout from your hide. Wake up and admit to yourself that you might have made a mistake. It's ok. Don't blame the rest of the World because you weren't perfect. I hope everything works out ok for you.

Are you kidding me??? Are you freakin kidding me??? Where in the heck are you comming from? Why did you even post???

 

I am in absolute disbelief here...I dont want you to feel attacked so I wont go any further, but just gotta say WHOA! :)

 

I will not defend myself any more, its not what it was about from the beginning- But I am telling you, there are people reading this that have just got to be thinking what I am right now- I am just amazed at people. It is posts like this that have absolutley turned this topic upside down and inside out...I am truly amazed!

 

Right. And thanks for the email. I didn't feel at all attacked by that. When you first posted on the other thread you were very humble and took responsibility for what happened. Since then you have moved into attack mode with anyone who disagrees with you, while repeatedly saying it "isn't about you."

 

You made the choice to bring this to the forums and to state your premise in a manner suggesting the system is stupid and you have the perfect solution. Your concept wasn't well received here for a variety of reasons. Rather than paying attention to the feedback, which YOU requested, you choose to respond with "Are you freakin kidding me???" My answer? No, I am not kidding you.

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DUDE! Sorry the forum community didn't agree with your assertion that all should be good....

 

All should be good. When my cache was reported it was reported as a drug stash and got investigated for narcotics. None fone. All good.

 

What control did I have over it being reported for one thing vs. another? Zero.

 

The reality is that other people make decisions that impact the response.

 

Was your cache placed in a manner that violated the GC.com guidlines? Had it already been opened by whoever reported it so the responders didn't need to worry that it might be a bomb?

 

I agree that you had no control over it being reported for something it was not. You did have control over the appearance and placement of the container.

 

We are playing a game that most people just don't know about. We have the ability to influence certain factors that can minimize the possible negative response when someone comes accross one of our game pieces. Sometimes we don't do that. None of us is perfect but we should try to learn from our mistakes and those of others.

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Boy...what a crazy rollercoaster topic this has been...Its like ive been stuck upside down for most of it!

 

I have indeed heard back from one of the contacts of who is the incident comander of the CHP, I sent several emails out and so far Ive only heard back from him on this matter. Let me take a snip-it of what he said in reference to geocaches being found by accident and suspected to be a bomb upon discovery.

 

"One of the firefighters suspected it to be a geocache, he contacted one of his friends to run the location, however he did not come up with a hit. I don't think we had a long. lat on it so he didn't run it by location. I'm not sure of the details. But if Geocache would allow any 911 operator to access the site to locate devices, that would help immensely."

 

Well, waddya know? The first guy I get a response back from! Hmmm, this isnt sounding so naieve afterall now is it! Its still too early to say, but he is helping me on his end and I am doin what I can from this end, so it will still be some time, but Id really like to persue untill I have been told NO this wont work from someone who can stand behind a geobomb himself while trying to figure what it is and how to deal with it...i.e. The bomb squad and other authorities that actually deal with these circumstances.

 

If it requires me to push the fact that officers need GPS units in their car (which I suspected they did) which would be highly usefull for them, then thats what I will do! So they are able to know and give their location for a hundred other reasons aswell as to give coords to ID a location of a potential geobomb.

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"Im sure Groundspeak would issue premium memberships to authorities such as these, but I cant speak for them!"

 

You think Groundspeak would consider giving free premium memberships to the THOUSANDS of law enforcement departments worldwide to prevent a gecache that was poorly placed from being blown up? :)

 

Kay...heres an email I got directly from Groundspeak today when I arrived home for lunch when I asked about authorities being able to access geocaching and all premium aspects of it.

 

"For the past many years, we have offered free premium membership

> upgrades to law enforcement and other agencies of that sort in order

> to better provide them with access to our information. We completely

> agree that it is a valuable tool."

 

Hmmm... Well, another point that I only suspected they would, they have been doing for years! Doesnt sound so lame commin from the man himself now does it?

 

Have relayed this info on to my contact, but would like to get a few things cleared up even further before I start exchanging names with oneanother. But EXCELLENT NEWS! :)

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I agree that it would be a valuable resource for the officers to have GPS units in their patrol cars. In fact this has recently been proposed in the Seattle area and, you will love this, the UNION is against it because they don't want the department to be able to monitor the activities of the officers. Granted the scenario is different but it does provide a bit of insight on the topic.

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I agree that it would be a valuable resource for the officers to have GPS units in their patrol cars. In fact this has recently been proposed in the Seattle area and, you will love this, the UNION is against it because they don't want the department to be able to monitor the activities of the officers. Granted the scenario is different but it does provide a bit of insight on the topic.

 

WHOA!!!... Thats NUTS! :) I wonder how many other agencies are like that?

 

I just assumed they had em in their cars already...then found they didnt! WAIT...I know whats up- They know geocaching is addictive and know that if all these officers have GPS units in their car, they will be out finding caches all day. If they get caught, they'd just be like "Um No, I was just checkin this um suspicious container here" (rubber ball and travel bug in hand) :)

Edited by 007BigD
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Just got another email from the head of the Bomb squads wife... :)

 

Actually she just wanted to let me know that he wouldnt be able to respond to me till Fri/Sat so I should have more info at that point. She could tell I put some effort into explaining what I was after and didnt want to leave me hangin! :D

 

If all this can actually fly, I wonder whats next? Where will I go from here to take it up a notch- I think it will have to be these guys that help me there. No higher ups wanna hear from a loley ol geocacher.

 

Anyone got any other ideas as to how we can make this idea get out to more agencies? I think it should probably be up to the guys im in contact with, but I wonder if there is anything else we can do?...Eh, Ill wait to hear from him first!

 

So far so good- I am happy and appologize for any toes I may have stepped on, but gotta say- MY FEET FREAKIN HURT! :) ... :D

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DUDE! Sorry the forum community didn't agree with your assertion that all should be good. The facts would indicate that you placed an ill concieved camoed container under a bridge and someone decided that wasn't a good idea. Namely the local law enforcement community. Don't try to beat up on everyone else just because your hide had a problem. The fact is that we ALL have to deal with the fallout from your hide. Wake up and admit to yourself that you might have made a mistake. It's ok. Don't blame the rest of the World because you weren't perfect. I hope everything works out ok for you.

Are you kidding me??? Are you freakin kidding me??? Where in the heck are you comming from? Why did you even post???

 

I am in absolute disbelief here...I dont want you to feel attacked so I wont go any further, but just gotta say WHOA! :)

 

I will not defend myself any more, its not what it was about from the beginning- But I am telling you, there are people reading this that have just got to be thinking what I am right now- I am just amazed at people. It is posts like this that have absolutley turned this topic upside down and inside out...I am truly amazed!

 

Right. And thanks for the email. I didn't feel at all attacked by that. When you first posted on the other thread you were very humble and took responsibility for what happened. Since then you have moved into attack mode with anyone who disagrees with you, while repeatedly saying it "isn't about you."

 

You made the choice to bring this to the forums and to state your premise in a manner suggesting the system is stupid and you have the perfect solution. Your concept wasn't well received here for a variety of reasons. Rather than paying attention to the feedback, which YOU requested, you choose to respond with "Are you freakin kidding me???" My answer? No, I am not kidding you.

Well golly. How many times should people be allowed to take a poke at the guy before he's allowed to get defensive? I don't even understand why you all have been allowed to continue to discuss that specific issue in this thread rather than keeping it in the other thread and sticking to this thread's topic.
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I agree that it would be a valuable resource for the officers to have GPS units in their patrol cars. In fact this has recently been proposed in the Seattle area and, you will love this, Granted the scenario is different but it does provide a bit of insight on the topic.

Has the union actually stated "the UNION is against it because they don't want the department to be able to monitor the activities of the officers" as the reason?

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...Was your cache placed in a manner that violated the GC.com guidlines? Had it already been opened by whoever reported it so the responders didn't need to worry that it might be a bomb?

 

I agree that you had no control over it being reported for something it was not. You did have control over the appearance and placement of the container.

 

We are playing a game that most people just don't know about. We have the ability to influence certain factors that can minimize the possible negative response when someone comes accross one of our game pieces. Sometimes we don't do that. None of us is perfect but we should try to learn from our mistakes and those of others.

 

The cache was placed near a pond, about 1000' from a rest area, in a sportsmans access area. I have no idea if the folks who reported it opned it.

 

There are two tracks in this thread. First as you point out, we can work to minimize the chances of a responce we don't want to have. You are right in this angle. We should learn.

 

The second track is what should happen when regular people doing normal things (there is nothing sinister about caching) get caught up in a responce. That's when it's important for LEO's and Politico's to remember the true goal of a bomb squad is to minimize the harm from real bombs. That means minimizing alll their backlash because they wasted their time. They need to remember the problem is real bombs, not daily life. Their message should be education. "Don't leave your laptop in the police station, don't leave your baggage unattended at the airport" etc. Not "You evil SOB's who FORCED US TO WASTE OUR TIME!"

 

Alas some folks get caught in the track of bashing anything that creates a false alarm, when the false alarm is a side effect of having a bomb squad and a vigilant public. In other words it's part of the job. Yes we would like to minimize it. But why should we hang out brothers out to dry because it was their turn to be the guy who through no fault of their own and certainly no intension of their own got caught up in a responce?

 

If his cache was approved it met guidelines.

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.... Anyone got any other ideas as to how we can make this idea get out to more agencies? I think it should probably be up to the guys im in contact with, but I wonder if there is anything else we can do?...Eh, Ill wait to hear from him first!...

 

The single best way is for officers to have geocachers in their midst. Everything else falls short of what you want. I know of a couple of cases that didn't rise to crisis level because a responding officer knew it was a cache from direct hands on experience.

 

Bomb squads do know best how to do their jobs. I give kudos to them when they respond by saying "it wasn't a bomb, come on folks pay a little attention to where you place these things" and dislike when they say "We wasted our time and are going to look into bringing Joe Public up on charges for being so rude as to go about his daily life"

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I'm not sure it is feasible to have every single posted cache reported to the local LE Agencies, nor for every patrol officer to have a GPS unit until the agencies determine it is in their best interests. Over 200 new cache listings have been published in North Carolina just this month already.

 

I'm glad to hear that Groundspeak is open minded enough to offer the complimentary memberships to the officers and agencies who request them. It doesn't really make sense for Groundspeak to contact every single agency worldwide and make that offer though.

 

What is feasible, and a very good idea, is for the organizers of any large event to contact the local LE Agencies and explain geocaching and the event to them in a press release/bulletin format. We did just that for Geowoodstock 5 last year, and it produced some very positive results.

 

But once the bomb squad gets called, something is getting blown up. :)

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To tell you the truth...I dont even want to participate in this thread anymore, I really have a hard time beleiving where it has gone...really dissapointed! To those who have given their constructive ideas- Thank You...for those who cant help but critisize, please refrain from posting here. I would just like to stay on topic.

Really tired of the ones who know absolutley nothing of the situation or who I am...YOU HAVE ABSOLUTLEY NO IDEA!

When you post a topic and ask what people think, you have to accept that you'll get both positive and negative responses. Although negative posts really should be polite and not personal, you can't tell people to refrain from posting criticism. Criticism of an idea is still on topic.

 

But good luck with your current situation.

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Bomb squads in Europe are still finding bombs, shells, mines etc from WWI and WWII, usually rusty metal buried in the ground, found during excavations for new buildings / roads etc, but also washed up on beaches, especially when dislodged from a stash dumped at sea between Northern Ireland and Scotland, and sometimes nice shiny brass tubes that have been kept as door stops or in lofts since a previous or present owner was discharged from the armed forces. Also, it's not so long since the IRA was leaving bombs in Northern Ireland or Great Britain - I saw a lot of examples in the royal Engineers museum, where items such a dishwashing cloths and 8oz biscuit packets were used as packing and counter weights. I'm perhaps more aware of this than others, having done my MSc research into chemical incidents in Northern Ireland in 1998, the summer of the Omagh bomb, which killed 30 people from Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland and Spain. So, I reckon that any bomb squad has to play safe, assume a suspicious package is a bomb and act accordingly.

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Bomb squads in Europe are still finding bombs, shells, mines etc from WWI and WWII,...

 

The other day I saw a show on this. The numbers of finds are astounding. It may be one reason that Europe in general has a better attitude about false reports in general than the USA. We are just now learning to cope with what Europe has dealt with for generations.

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What is feasible, and a very good idea, is for the organizers of any large event to contact the local LE Agencies and explain geocaching and the event to them in a press release/bulletin format.

I know on at least 3 separate occasions since 9/11 that nationwide informational teletypes have been sent to all law enforcement agencies explaining Geocaching. The nationwide broadcast goes to all LEAs so they've all gotten it. That's how I found out about Geocaching a couple of months after 9/11.

Geocaching has also been written about in at least 1 LE magazine.

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What is feasible, and a very good idea, is for the organizers of any large event to contact the local LE Agencies and explain geocaching and the event to them in a press release/bulletin format.

I know on at least 3 separate occasions since 9/11 that nationwide informational teletypes have been sent to all law enforcement agencies explaining Geocaching. The nationwide broadcast goes to all LEAs so they've all gotten it. That's how I found out about Geocaching a couple of months after 9/11.

Geocaching has also been written about in at least 1 LE magazine.

I'm aware of a similar thing with the FBI, the TSA, and DOHS in the past couple of months.

 

It's probably like everything else. You remember what you use. We think of caches all the time. I'm sure LEO's see a much wider variety of reports and caches are just one they may encounter lost in the magnitude of all things reported and evaluated for a response.

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After the recent mishap with a “really Local cache” :D ... :)

 

I am thinking to myself “it coulda been so easy”... sure there are rules in place to avoid situations like this, but do they stop? No

 

I mean it’d be so easy as to somethin like a memo to every bomb squad in the country to make it protocol to give coords as to the whereabouts of the suspicious package, take the 1.5 minutes to type it into the Coordinate search of the GC website and find out if its a cache or a bomb!...Really though- Think about it!

 

It would save so much time, so much money, the heartache of the unfortunate one who has his cache destroyed, anyone who may be afflicted by it such as the Hwy 101 drivers held up in the recent ongoing and the people taking their time reading about such nonsense that has caused such a stir...Over and Over and Over again!

 

Sure it gives the paper somethin to write about, but how much trouble does one geocache have to be!

 

It really is an easy task that should be completed before any action is to be taken!...I have read these things goin on these forums since I started geocaching and isnt it time there was someting done? Doesnt it sound to easy to be true though??? :D

 

Shouldnt it be protocol??? :D

 

Instead of making caches so hard to identify with the naked eye, what is wrong with having the outside of the cache clearly marked as being a cache? Also let’s not forget that gc.com ISN’T the only “game” in town. To do what you suggest law enforcement would have to check gc.com, nc.com, tc.com as well as ALL of the local and regional databases to see if something suspicious is or isn’t a cache before taking action.

 

By the time that they get down checking a ¼ or so of the various on-line databases if it is a bomb it could explode. And what about the cache that has been hidden, but not yet submitted to gc.com, nc.com, tc.com or some other database?

 

No, it is better in the long run for law enforcement to treat ALL suspicious packages as suspicious packages unless it is clearly marked as being a cache.

 

And here’s something to think about, what’s to keep a terrorist from creating a bomb that adheres to all of the requirements of a cache, placing it, and getting it approved???? Has anyone give thought to that possibility????

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Are you really serious? Like law enforcement and bomb sqauds don't have anything better to do with their time than keep track of or search to see if what looks like it might be a bomb is really just a cache.

 

Even as a geocacher, I'd rather my tax-dollars didn't go to such a ridiculous idea.

Are YOU really serious??? Really now...come on!

 

What costs more money here? :

 

A suspicious device is found right? Someone comes to check on it, because they have to...Here are the scenarios that could take place... and then that do take place. Read on

 

Officer arrives or Bomb Squad...Radios to base "Ive located the odd looking container, that may resemble a bomb"... "I am at N123* 13.637 W39* 16.785... "Would you check on this with the GC website before any further action?"

 

Dispatch says..."Looks like there is a geocache within 30 feet of your devices location, heres the details" check the cache and on with the day.

 

OR

 

Officer arrives..."That does look suspicious! Better call the bomb squad!"

 

Bomb squad arrives 2 hours later from Eureka, shuts down busy Hwy 101 while setting up base at a nearby rest stop...It occupies a crew of busy Cal-Trans workers, the CHP, The Bomb Squad and busy Hwy 101 travelers for 5 1/2 hours...Backing up traffic, causing a stir, Blowing up the device, only to dicover its a freakin Geocache! Then the follow up with 4 officers involved tracking down where the box came from and contacting its owner, then the report! All this resulting in Thousands and Thousands of dollars! Not to mention whording the front page of the paper 3 days in a row from actual events that should have been on the front page!

 

Now you tell me what was money well spent with that scenario??? Its a Freakin Bomb Squad...All suspicious containers could be checked within minutes and varified whether or not the container is at least a geocache! Its not like our Bomb Squads go on calls every day!...It should be Protocol!...Its happened too many times- Way more than is even listed on this forum!

 

Really Now, I am sure there are agencies that send out memo's and other info to these outfits on a weekly if not daily basis!

 

The problem is that GC isn't the only one's keeping a database of caches. There are hundreds of thousands IF not millions by now. On sites OTHER then GC. Should law enforcement check them ALL before taking action???

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The problem is that GC isn't the only one's keeping a database of caches. There are hundreds of thousands IF not millions by now. On sites OTHER then GC. Should law enforcement check them ALL before taking action???
I suspect that the OP would think so. :D
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The problem is that GC isn't the only one's keeping a database of caches. There are hundreds of thousands IF not millions by now. On sites OTHER then GC. Should law enforcement check them ALL before taking action???
There are other cache sites with millions of caches? GC.com only has half a million or so worldwide. What are these other big cache repositories?
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Shouldnt it be protocol???

The geocaching community should be policing itself. There are protocols for us to follow. Mainly, in this case, it was the one where one shouldn't be putting caches under main traffic bridges. Oops!

 

The cache looked creative and imaginative. However, IMHO, placing such a cache where it was placed was a mistake. It could have very easily been an offset.

 

I'm curious on how it got past the reviewer.

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I think that if I decided I wanted to place a cache in an area that could be potentially sensitive to this kind of a situation I would contact the local enforcement folks and let them know it was there. If I wasn't comfortable doing that I don't think I would place the cache.

 

This is an extract from the "Hiding your first cache" section on the gc.com website:

 

Whatever the container, make sure to mark your cache so that someone who doesn't play can figure out what it is. Most folks mark the container with Geocaching.com, the name of the cache, and any contact information they feel is necessary. More info is better than less.

 

Based on the pictures from your cache it doesn't appear that you did this. I have empathy for your current situation but not a lot of sympathy.

 

Forget about me...Its not about me

 

Its gonna happen again and again, no matter how many rules are in place! Sure things should have been done differently...But I KNOW many caches out there have the potential of something like this happening again, whether it will or not!

 

Its gonna happen again!...Do ya wanna bet by this time next month- there will be another topic of this nature? 2 geocoins...waddaya say? (not really because betting isnt allowed on the forums, but you can contact me) :huh:

 

DUDE- It would save so much time, money and frustration! Its so easy!

 

“DUDE” I saw the pictures that you posted of your blown-up cache, and to me they looked suspicious. IF I wasn’t a cacher and I came across something that looked like that you’d better believe that I’d be calling the local law enforcement to have it investigated.

 

The bottom line “DUDE” is that it is YOUR fault for the way that you camouflaged your container.

 

And unlike those who posted to your description I do hope that you got into trouble over it.

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Lemme propose this scenario to you:

 

Someone constructs a small bomb, disguises it as a geocache, and places it in a similar position.

 

What now?

 

 

It is a very sad day for the geocaching community as FTF is LTF. Unlikely scenario, but that would suck and would be a very bad ordeal!

 

No, I don’t see that as being an unlikely scenario, I see that as being a very real scenario. Terrorists know about geocaching, so it makes sense that they’re going to start constructing their bombs to resemble caches.

 

Lemme propose this scenario to you:

The simple solution is not to have large suspicious-looking caches near high-traffic public places.

 

They are out there...they just havent been discovered by bomb squads yet!

 

Or anyone else, and as soon as they are, they’ll be a black eye for cachers everywhere.

Edited by Digital_Cowboy
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People keep bringing up the "but there are so many sites they'd have to check them all" argument...

 

Have you ever heard of a search engine? While it would require someone to actually get off their a** and program it, once done they just type the coordinates in and then it searches a huge list of every single site out there, 30? 40? 600? 8 million?

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Near as I can tell, something is done each time. The cache is officially muggled destructively. People should know better and I'll have no sympathy for lost caches when they are so foolishly hidden.

Its not about that...it shouldnt get to that point...Not for the sake of the cache, but for the sake of the time, money and energy spent!

 

Its not about the cache or sympathy for the idiotic hider! They're are idiotic hiders all over...its about when the next one will be payed a visit by the bomb squad and spent thousands of dollars destroying it- It all could be avoided!

 

Im tellin ya, its gonna happen over and over again and there is nothing any reviewer, cacher, or bomb squad tech can do, unless it was necessary protocol to check the coords~ Its so easy...Is any body with me???

 

Totally forget about me...Can ya see past that?

 

Yes, there is a VERY simple easy way to not avoid (as sadly this is something that's going to happen again) this but, to limit it's happening again. Outlaw ALL forms of GeoCaching, except virtual/locationless caches. Do you really want to see that?

Edited by Digital_Cowboy
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People keep bringing up the "but there are so many sites they'd have to check them all" argument...

 

Have you ever heard of a search engine? While it would require someone to actually get off their a** and program it, once done they just type the coordinates in and then it searches a huge list of every single site out there, 30? 40? 600? 8 million?

 

Everything is easy to someone who doesn't have to do it or maintain it.

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All right I’ve got it figured out now. My guess is you are one VERY niave person. However, you seem like a very nice person. I want to give you some advice that I hope you take. I’d would go to the SMARTEST person you know. Someone you respect. Someone you know who makes a lot of good decisions.

 

Explain this whole ordeal to them. Show them the threads you’ve posted. Arm them with all the information you can provide and then listen to their advice.

 

You do realize you are going to be one VERY lucky person if you walk away from this without legal trouble? Sound crazy? It happens all the time now a days. Government is losing their patience for niave behavior at an expontenial rate.

 

Here in my state they are now charging fisherman out ice fishing when they get stranded on an ice flow and have to be rescued by a helicopter. Helicopter rides aren’t cheap.

 

Remember the guys in New York with the little "Blinky" sign that people thought was some bomb scare. They basically tried to hang them. They DID end up in court.

 

You’ve already admitted that the local papers ARE trying to hang you.

 

The simple fact is you put a device that 99.9999999999% of the world would suspect to be a BOMB in a public place. If you disrupted just one single persons live in a negative manner and they get an itch to sue you...would you be at ALL suprised? We live in a society today that loves to rally behind the fact that they think you should be punished for your innocennce.

 

Listen to what EVERYONE is telling you. The idea is grandiose and has some merit but it just won’t work.

 

I hope you get out of this one with as little problems as possible. Good luck to you.

 

Naieve?...maybe to a point...but on the low scale, and not many can admit that! I can definatley hold my own when it comes to circumstances that require a bit to realize if its a bad deal, scam or a dangerous situation.

 

As far as prosecution goes...Actually, I have been told there is no action going to be taken against me in every circumstance so far...every contact has understood 100%.

 

The paper was just dead wrong in what they published...They had no right to list my place of work or use one of my pictures. They were on the idiotic side of things much as many of the posters in this topic (I mean in reference to the guy who placed it and the nature of it being an idiotic act)...They really exagerated it too!

 

I will only talk to the officer on Sunday, just to give him my report. As far as I know, he still has the cache with a hole in it and the incident commander told me they actually want to give it back to me...The log is fine!

 

Ill try to let ya’ll know what becomes of this and what they say about such a Protocol being in place...as far as the smartest person to talk to- Heck, that’d be me! :huh:... :huh: Ill share what I find.

 

The newspaper was doing it’s job, reporting the facts as given to them from the police. As the individual who planted the “bomb” and caused hours of mayham and inconvenience to untold thousands of people. What would you have done, IF because of what you’d done someone stuck in the traffic jam died? Or the next time police gets a report of a suspicious device they do nothing and it turns out to be a bomb.

 

A bomb that explodes killing everyone around it. Also stop and think about this your cache in question appeared to have been an ammo can of the M-16 variety. Pack that half-full of explosives, fill the remainder with ball-bearings. And you know what you have? A VERY large claymor mine.

 

Trust me when I tell you that regular claymor mine does enough damage. One made from an ammo can is something I don’t want to think about.

 

The bottom line is you caused the problem by not reading the guidelines. Had you RTFG, YOU could have avoided everything that happened. If you don’t want to RTFG. Before placing your next creative cammoed container show it to a non-caching friend and ask them how they’d react if they stumbled across it out in the “wild” as it were.

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The problem is that GC isn’t the only one’s keeping a database of caches. There are hundreds of thousands IF not millions by now. On sites OTHER then GC. Should law enforcement check them ALL before taking action???
There are other cache sites with millions of caches? GC.com only has half a million or so worldwide. What are these other big cache repositories?

 

A) I meant that count figuratively/the sum total of all caches

B) besides the national/international databases there are local and regional databases

C) there are caches ”published” in/on news groups, mailing lists

D) there are people who are sharing cache locations without the use of The Net

 

Can anyone really know how many caches there are world wide? Or for that matter how many databases there are cataloging caches?

Edited by Digital_Cowboy
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People keep bringing up the "but there are so many sites they'd have to check them all" argument...

 

Have you ever heard of a search engine? While it would require someone to actually get off their a** and program it, once done they just type the coordinates in and then it searches a huge list of every single site out there, 30? 40? 600? 8 million?

 

Yes, I've heard of search engines, have you heard of firewalls? Or private networks that aren't hooked to the Internet? Or people who actually put pen to paper, and place said pieces of paper into envelopes put a stamp on said envelope and drop it into the mailbox?

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People keep bringing up the "but there are so many sites they'd have to check them all" argument...

 

Have you ever heard of a search engine? While it would require someone to actually get off their a** and program it, once done they just type the coordinates in and then it searches a huge list of every single site out there, 30? 40? 600? 8 million?

 

Yes, I've heard of search engines, have you heard of firewalls? Or private networks that aren't hooked to the Internet? Or people who actually put pen to paper, and place said pieces of paper into envelopes put a stamp on said envelope and drop it into the mailbox?

I understand their point. What's yours?

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People keep bringing up the "but there are so many sites they'd have to check them all" argument...

 

Have you ever heard of a search engine? While it would require someone to actually get off their a** and program it, once done they just type the coordinates in and then it searches a huge list of every single site out there, 30? 40? 600? 8 million?

 

Yes, I've heard of search engines, have you heard of firewalls? Or private networks that aren't hooked to the Internet? Or people who actually put pen to paper, and place said pieces of paper into envelopes put a stamp on said envelope and drop it into the mailbox?

I understand their point. What's yours?

 

My point is that NOT all resources are going to be searchable by a search engine. As there is code that one can add to their site/page to keep search engines from indexing it.

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