fake containers of dangerous items

[+jwblaylock]

I have seen on sites to buy items that there is rattlesnakes that are fake in the strike position. Is this really a good idea since there are people of all ages. I would hope that Geocaching would remove any posting of things that can give an elderly person a heart attack

[+BarbVA]

My thought is that a cache like that is only for the brave soul. I don't think it is just the elderly we have to worry about, but the young ones as well. I constantly tell my 5 year old to be on the look out for snakes, but if she actually encountered something like that her geocaching days would most likely be over. I would hope that anything that could potentially frighten a cacher away from the sport would be ranked with an appropriate difficutly level. I would consider a snake cache to be no less than a 3. I wouldn't take my 5 year old on a 3 difficulty cache. If I went out on a 1/1 and my child was frightened away from the sport I'd be a little ticked off. While I think such caches are cool and fun, they need to be given an appropriate rating, and maybe even a hint of the potential fright.

[+OpenTrackRacer]

It's not against the guidelines so there would be no basis for removing the listing.

 

The difficulty ratings are just that, difficulty, not fright factor or age limitations.

 

A hint is not a bad idea, but if it's too overt it wouldn't be much of a surprise.

[+PhxChem]

I would hope that Geocaching would remove any posting of things that can give an elderly person a heart attack

 

There's probably a couple of micros that might also cause a stroke!!

[+russellvt]

I remember reading a funny thread at some point, where someone joked of having a snake cache and suddenly see a cacher log a DNF with a message like, "Couldn't find the cache, but were startled by a snake which we were able to grab and throw over the side of the cliff!"

 

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I remember reading a funny thread at some point, where someone joked of having a snake cache and suddenly see a cacher log a DNF with a message like, "Couldn't find the cache, but were startled by a snake which we were able to grab and throw over the side of the cliff!"

 

Ouch! In my state (Maryland) and in most states in which I have lived, it is against the law to harm snakes, and for good reason.

[+scorpio_dark]

I have seen on sites to buy items that there is rattlesnakes that are fake in the strike position. Is this really a good idea since there are people of all ages. I would hope that Geocaching would remove any posting of things that can give an elderly person a heart attack

 

I've suggested before that there should be kidcaching.com or some such. Now I guess we need to add geri-caching.com or pacemakercaching.com?

 

But for a real answer to the OP. Yes, IMO it's a fine idea.

 

<snip> I would hope that anything that could potentially frighten a cacher away from the sport would be ranked with an appropriate difficutly level. I would consider a snake cache to be no less than a 3. I wouldn't take my 5 year old on a 3 difficulty cache. If I went out on a 1/1 and my child was frightened away from the sport I'd be a little ticked off. While I think such caches are cool and fun, they need to be given an appropriate rating . . <snip>

 

(Sounds like another blip on the need for kid-caches listings.) No, difficulty is difficulty as in puzzling issues. Not difficulty caused by a frightening event.

 

and maybe even a hint of the potential fright.

 

I see where this is appropriate. My first thought was whatever. But that's where I need to allow for the fact that this is for all

[+sbell111]

We should be looking out for real snakes, spiders, etc. Since we don't try to keep caches away from those, necessarily, why would we need to take special action against rubber imitations?

[+nthacker66]

I was talking to a fellow cacher who is a veteran and she was telling me about a cache that her daughter hid that caused a stir with another cacher who was mainly a troublemaker who complained about every cache. This particular cache was archived (not due to the container type) because of the argument and the cache went missing. The container itself was a manequin head hanging from a tree with a micro placed inside. The name of the cache was something to the sort "head of the class" though I am not sure of the exact name. Back to the point, the person who claimed it was an inappropriate container I think had a right to complain, but I am on the side of the cache being "appropriate" with subtle clues about the cahce type. I think that should be listed but as far as it offending someone, as long as they are warned beforehand that it may be offensive, nothing is inappropriate. It is just like the level of danger a cache location may reside in. If people are warned, they do not have to attempt it.

 

I do not think the rubber rattler container is offensive or inappropriate at all.

[+Polarbz]

I would hope that GS would not even consider removing caches based on their ability to frighten or scare someone - anyone. How many caches require a good hike (that may be detrimental to an older person)? How many are dangerous to someone who doesn't know what they are doing? There is no requirement to find all the caches, or even to attempt them. At some point, it is incumbent upon the cacher to know his or her limits.

 

Now, a little hint that something snakey might be afoot would be good, but removing cachers that might scare people is silly.

[+sbell111]

How silly would it be to warn someone that the cache container might be 'scary'. That's almost a guarantee that it won't be scary.

[Scamp]

People have varying definitions of scary too. I know that when I was a kid, I wouldn't have been scared of a snake, plastic or otherwise. I'd have thought it was neat. On the other hand, as a little girl I was terribly afraid of heights, so some of the caches I've done that were up on the sides of mountains would have been scary as heck to me back then. It would kind of be silly to label all those caches as potentially scary because some people are scared of heights. It's just as silly to label a cache as scary because some people are afraid of snakes.

 

Whenever you're dealing with any activity outdoors, there are unknowns that can pop up-- wildlife among them. If a kid is frightened by snakes, or spiders, or scorpions, it isn't going to do much good sheltering them from pretend ones, since they're very likely to spot the real thing one day if they really enjoy hiking and mucking around outside. Better to just tell them how to behave respectfully around real ones, and how to avoid dangerous situations with them. If they made the mistake of reaching into a dark crevice and finding a rubber snake, it could easily have been a real one, and the situation would have been much more frightening. That can be used as a teaching opportunity.

 

As far as the elderly cachers among us are concerned, I bet their hearts are much stronger than the average person's due to all the activity and a healthy sense of adventure. /salute the old folks.

Edited May 5, 2008 by Scamp

[+NeoAddict]

A strenuous hike can cause a person of age to go into cardiac arrest. Should we be making notes on our cache listings for the geriatric to carry Lifelink buttons while out in the woods? Now that'd be just silly.

 

I've never personally come across any of those cleverly hidden caches, and I don't live in snake country. From what I've gathered, most people hiking in snake country carry walking sticks with them, so when they do encounter a snake or think that it is a snake, they can rustle the leaves around it with their stick rather than their arm or leg. A simple poke test with the walking stick is all that is needed to see if it is alive or not.

And people usually hint to what the cache is on the log page anyway, without giving it all away.

[+Zop]

I would hope that GS would not even consider removing caches based on their ability to frighten or scare someone - anyone. How many caches require a good hike (that may be detrimental to an older person)? How many are dangerous to someone who doesn't know what they are doing? There is no requirement to find all the caches, or even to attempt them. At some point, it is incumbent upon the cacher to know his or her limits.

 

Now, a little hint that something snakey might be afoot would be good, but removing cachers that might scare people is silly.

 

Amen.

 

We all agree that we geocache at our own risks. To me, that means that I need to consider what is and what is not safe for me to attempt. If that means poking a possible fake with a stick then so be it.

 

Common sense everyone!

Edited May 5, 2008 by Zop

[+Mule Ears]

Here in Arizona, real snakes just up and volunteer for the job of scaring Geocachers. Don't know how they feel about rubber snakes horning in on their fun.

[+Confucius' Cat]

Here in Arizona, real snakes just up and volunteer for the job of scaring Geocachers. Don't know how they feel about rubber snakes horning in on their fun.

Not to mention the trouble from the local RCoA union- Rattlesnakes and Copperheads of America

[danoshimano]

... that can give an elderly person a heart attack

 

Elderly? I'm 46 and that would give me a heart attack. Then again, maybe that is elderly (to an 8 year old).

 

I once kayaked to a cache and found one of those wooden articulated snakes in it. I left a few other cool things and took the snake. Back at my kayak, I dropped the snake in on the seat, had a drink, then went off to explore a bit. When I came back to my kayak half an hour later I almost jumped out of my skin when I saw this snake on the seat. Doh!

[+JohnnyVegas]

I have seen on sites to buy items that there is rattlesnakes that are fake in the strike position. Is this really a good idea since there are people of all ages. I would hope that Geocaching would remove any posting of things that can give an elderly person a heart attack

I have a few caches that are designed to surprise the finder. I had one person include a comment that he thought my cache might be to much for a person with a weak heart. Ha! I say, if someones heart is so week that a cache could kill them chances are that person of to week to go geocaching anyway.

As far as a fake ralltesnake, we have lots of real rattelsnakes in my area, I have seen one so far this year.

Most cacher around here know to watch for rattlesnakes when thet are out, a fake one would not surprise them until they realized it was fake.

[+meralgia]

Okay, I have a rubber snake wired to the outside of a "small", but I'm also not in snake country. Not to mention, the name of the cache is "slippery, slimy snake". Can't make it any more obvious!! ; )

[knowschad]

In my three years of geocaching and hiding caches, I've only had three people succumb to heart attacks from fear after finding my caches. I don't think that one a year is all THAT bad!

 

(The one that looks like a hedgehog holding a GPS is probably the scariest of them all)

[+meralgia]

I dunno--your nearsighted pooch is pretty scary

[+wimseyguy]

I_might_just own a cache or three that are intended to provide a slight startle to the finder. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Sometimes getting scared is fun too. Look at all of the other entertainment businesses that exist to give you an adrenaline rush. Why not have a little in our sport too?

 

Besides, I'm more concerned with the finder slipping off the cliff when the snake startles them than a heart attack happening. And if they both happen, at least the EMT's won't have to climb up to get them.

[+mocha monkey]

This is an interesting chain. Makes me wonder at what point and time do alternate caches present danger to fellow cachers. Could there be a potential for someone to think a real snake sleeping on a rock is just a cache and get hurt? Simular to fake electrical boxes not being allowed for safety? Simular to a trend of placing caches clear up in the tops of trees in city parks around here. One fall and we all will loose a great caching resource. Don't get me wrong, I love creative caches, just a thought.

[+Glenn]

This is an interesting chain. Makes me wonder at what point and time do alternate caches present danger to fellow cachers. Could there be a potential for someone to think a real snake sleeping on a rock is just a cache and get hurt? Simular to fake electrical boxes not being allowed for safety? Simular to a trend of placing caches clear up in the tops of trees in city parks around here. One fall and we all will loose a great caching resource. Don't get me wrong, I love creative caches, just a thought.

 

One of the reoccurring discussions here is the proper rating of caches. Some feel that the fake or look alike items shouldn't carry the same difficult rating that the real item would. So one side of the argument would go that because the fake rattle snake cache poses no danger and should be quickly identified as a fake that it should be rated a 1 or 2 in difficulty. While the other side would argue that someone who knew very little about snakes might initially assume that the snake is real and because they would need specialized knowledge to know that the fake snake is fake right off the bat that the cache shouldn't have a difficulty rating of less than a 3. To further bolster their point they would also say that the cache owner used a fake snake to camouflage the cache from the average person so the fake item may seem real to even the average geocache and therefore should have a higher difficulty rating.

 

Here is the difficulty ratings from Clay Jar's geocaching rating system. The geocaching rating system that is link to from the geocaching.com cache submission page.

Difficulty rating

* Easy. In plain sight or can be found in a few minutes of searching.

** Average. The average cache hunter would be able to find this in less than 30 minutes of hunting.

*** Challenging. An experienced cache hunter will find this challenging, and it could take up a good portion of an afternoon.

**** Difficult. A real challenge for the experienced cache hunter - may require special skills or knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days / trips to complete.

***** Extreme. A serious mental or physical challenge. Requires specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment to find cache.

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

I've found caches that have had a 'surprise factor' to them. That 'surprise' has made them memorable, and distinguished them from the many I've found that have blended together in my memory. I do not think that a 'surprise' should add to the difficulty of a cache. Both GC.com and ClayJar (and other) have ratings systems to determine the difficulty of a cache, however if the 'surprise' also acts as camo, the camo should be considered in the difficulty rating.

 

That being said, as someone who lives in an area with rattlesnakes, caches in an area with rattlesnakes, and who works outside and frequently finds rattlesnakes, finding one would not surprise me. However, when I see a rattlesnake, I don't hesitate for a moment to see if it's a fake. It quickly gets multiple hits with whatever stick, shovel, or sidearm I have in my hand. The hitting doesn't stop until I see multiple pieces of snake, or possibly in this case, McToys, flying through the air.

 

If the cache is hidden in a fake snake, it may make good camo, and an embarassing (or entertaining) cache log.

 

- Kewaneh

[ckoralsps]

About Scary caches or any other types we would like to label as a for warning. I wonder if GS could have a preference sheet in your account that you could check boxes, like Notify me if a cache is scary. That way, people who don't want to be scared will not, and people who do will. Seems like an easy fix to me.

 

Many preferences could be added this way.

[+OpenTrackRacer]

Except you'll know if its scary and that sort of defeats the purpose.

 

About Scary caches or any other types we would like to label as a for warning. I wonder if GS could have a preference sheet in your account that you could check boxes, like Notify me if a cache is scary. That way, people who don't want to be scared will not, and people who do will. Seems like an easy fix to me.

 

Many preferences could be added this way.

[+Let's Look Over Thayer]

That being said, as someone who lives in an area with rattlesnakes, caches in an area with rattlesnakes, and who works outside and frequently finds rattlesnakes, finding one would not surprise me. However, when I see a rattlesnake, I don't hesitate for a moment to see if it's a fake. It quickly gets multiple hits with whatever stick, shovel, or sidearm I have in my hand. The hitting doesn't stop until I see multiple pieces of snake, or possibly in this case, McToys, flying through the air.

Really? Why do you kill rattlesnakes? There is no need for this -- especially not to determine whether it is real or not.

 

I see lots of rattlesnakes too. When I see them I take a picture or two but otherwise I let them be. They weren't hurting me. Why should I hurt them? If they were attacking me for their dinner, I might see it otherwise but I've found that snakes are smart enough to realize that I'm too big to eat and all they want is for me to leave them alone.

 

[+meralgia]

Cool cache!!!

(just kidding)

[+Totem Clan]

Really? Why do you kill rattlesnakes? There is no need for this -- especially not to determine whether it is real or not.

 

I see lots of rattlesnakes too. When I see them I take a picture or two but otherwise I let them be. They weren't hurting me. Why should I hurt them? If they were attacking me for their dinner, I might see it otherwise but I've found that snakes are smart enough to realize that I'm too big to eat and all they want is for me to leave them alone.

 

I agree. I was born and raised in rattler country. I think they are beautiful creatures. They do more to help us than they have ever done to hurt us.

 

By the way that's a great photo of a red rattlesnake Crotalus ruber

[+KG1960]

I see lots of rattlesnakes too. When I see them I take a picture or two but otherwise I let them be. They weren't hurting me. Why should I hurt them? If they were attacking me for their dinner, I might see it otherwise but I've found that snakes are smart enough to realize that I'm too big to eat and all they want is for me to leave them alone.

 

Exactly my thoughts, too.

[+Wacka]

I have seen on sites to buy items that there is rattlesnakes that are fake in the strike position. Is this really a good idea since there are people of all ages. I would hope that Geocaching would remove any posting of things that can give an elderly person a heart attack

I have a few caches that are designed to surprise the finder. I had one person include a comment that he thought my cache might be to much for a person with a weak heart. Ha! I say, if someones heart is so week that a cache could kill them chances are that person of to week to go geocaching anyway.

As far as a fake ralltesnake, we have lots of real rattelsnakes in my area, I have seen one so far this year.

Most cacher around here know to watch for rattlesnakes when thet are out, a fake one would not surprise them until they realized it was fake.

 

You do a good job too. One of yours I could determine the camo from the title, but still poked it with my hiking stick to be sure it was fake. We had to throw it back in it's hiding spot without the log because a muggle was coming by and there was no way we could explain why we were holding that. Grabbed it after they left and put back the log.

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

That being said, as someone who lives in an area with rattlesnakes, caches in an area with rattlesnakes, and who works outside and frequently finds rattlesnakes, finding one would not surprise me. However, when I see a rattlesnake, I don't hesitate for a moment to see if it's a fake. It quickly gets multiple hits with whatever stick, shovel, or sidearm I have in my hand. The hitting doesn't stop until I see multiple pieces of snake, or possibly in this case, McToys, flying through the air.

Really? Why do you kill rattlesnakes? There is no need for this -- especially not to determine whether it is real or not.

 

I see lots of rattlesnakes too. When I see them I take a picture or two but otherwise I let them be. They weren't hurting me. Why should I hurt them? If they were attacking me for their dinner, I might see it otherwise but I've found that snakes are smart enough to realize that I'm too big to eat and all they want is for me to leave them alone.

 

The point I was making with my post was not anti-snake, or even anti-rattlesnake. The OP was concerned about a cache disguised as a fake snake scaring someone; his concern was with the cacher. My point was that one person's fright might have a detrimental affect on that cache; my concern was with the cache. I thought my comments about flying McToys and the embarassing/entertaining cache log would identify my post as relatively tounge-in-cheek without the use of a little smiley icon.

 

Now, I don't have anything against snakes. The ARE very interesting creatures and I DO enjoy looking at them. I do take pictures of them when I have a camera available. I can immediately tell the difference between a rattle snake and a king snake and a rat snake and a gopher snake, and most other native snake species. I've had snakes as pets (if you can call a snake a pet). My kids know to watch for snakes and my older kids can tell the difference between the good ones and the bad. I will, generally, leave snakes alone.

 

I live in an area with snakes. I work outside, sometimes in areas infested with snakes. I give them their space as long as they give me mine, but sometimes a rattle snake needs to be taken care of. Like it or not, sometimes there IS a need to kill them. When I find a rattle snake on my property (I have), or in my yard (I have), or on my porch (I have), I WILL kill it. If I don't, the next person to find it might be my three year old. I don't feel guilty about getting rid of hornets or black widows, and I don't feel guilty about getting rid of rattle snakes either. "Live and let live" is a good code to live by, but I also know the nature of the beast, and I'm not going to pretend that any spider or snake is living by the same code. People don't get bit by rattle snakes because the snake is hungry, and while a snake may be "smart" enough to know that I'm too big to eat, my younger kids aren't so big, and snakes aren't that smart.

 

- Kewaneh

Edited May 9, 2008 by Kewaneh & Shark