Unpublished Caches

May 1, 2008

I just recently discovered something interesting while tracking the whereabouts of some of my geocoins. Apparently, there are geocachers that maintain an unpublished cache in order to 'hide' geocoins and TBs in order to separate these treasures away from their profiles. When I had a coin picked up by somebody visiting from another state and he posted that he was taking the coin to his home-state, I sent him an email, pointing out that the coin's mission (on its traveler card and web page) was to stay in our state. I received no reply from the cacher and a couple of months later, I received an email from Groundspeak that the coin had been placed in a cache. When I clicked on the link in the email, the cache is not available for viewing and this message pops up: "Sorry, you cannot view this cache listing until it has been published".

So, I figured that I would wait until it is published to see who would pick up the coin when the cache is published. I then checked the rest of my travelers and found a coin that was placed in a cache in January, but hadn't moved since then. I clicked on the link for the cache that is on the geocoin's webpage, and 'Bingo!', I get the same, "Sorry, you cannot view this cache listing until it has been published". I thought it was strange that this coin was placed in the cache back in January, but it hasn't been published yet. I decided to get in touch with a reviewer, local to the area where this unpublished cache is and it turns out, this unpublished cache is used by the cacher who opened it to store coins in, that others can't get to. That's when I checked futher on the first unpublished cache I mentioned above and I discovered that I can't see who owns the unpublished cache, but when I checked the profile of the cacher who dropped my coin in this unpublished cache, it looks like he is using it as a geocoin 'dump', as quite a few coins from others have been cycled through this unpublished cache over a span of a couple of months...

Maybe I'm talking out of turn, but whenever I've opened an application for a new cache placement, I was of the opinion that I should craft it and send it in for publishing as soon as reasonably possible. But using an unpublished cache as a holding pen of sorts doesn't seem to hold up to the spirit of creating caches. Perhaps there should be a time limit of say, a month to complete the process and if it isn't submited for publishing by then, the GC number is cancelled, the application is voided and the GC number is recycled back into the pool. This way, coin hoarding wouldn't be cataloged by an unpublished Groundspeak geocache page and the position won't be locked-in by a cache that isn't intended to be published...

Any thoughts?

Edited May 1, 2008 by GodinDraak

May 1, 2008

Many people also hold their Geocoins/TB's in archived caches. People with many coins/bugs in hand tend to keep them in the list on an archived or unpublished cache page so their inventory isn't all cluttered up.

I recently discovered the idea and I'm not so sure about it yet.

Edited May 1, 2008 by NeoAddict

May 1, 2008

Well, I can understand that kind of use for an archived cache, since it isn't locked out from public viewing and the cache no longer acts as a place holder on the playing field. No problem there...

22k · May 1, 2008

I would rather see gc.com develop a better solution. Apparently people have a need and they are going to use this unpublished cache thingy since it does pretty much what they want.

I don't think it has much to do with the improperly handling of a traveler. That's a cacher issue not a system one.

May 1, 2008

Granted, this is a cacher issue, but this would be a good way to make travelers disappear, leaving the traveler's owner with no recourse. Unless some computer forensics and 'social engineering' is performed, there is no way for the less technically inclined cacher to be able to find out more about what happened. You're locked out and have no way of finding out anything about it.

Besides, I would believe the intent of the application process is to place a cache, not to hold the application open indefinitely for personal storage. As mentioned above, using an archived cache would be just as suitable, in order to maintain personal inventories.

May 1, 2008

Also, keep in mind that unpublished caches are not on a reviewer's list, so it is not holding a location up. When a cache is submitted for review, then it is "taking up" the space.

May 1, 2008

Oops, my bad. I was under the mistaken impression that it held the position based upon the coordinates entered into it. So, since it doesn't place-hold until it is sent to the reviewer, the only real issue is that of making things in accessible to others.

7.2k · May 1, 2008

Granted, this is a cacher issue, but this would be a good way to make travelers disappear, leaving the traveler's owner with no recourse.

You basically have no recourse at all. Once you release a traveler, regardless of form, you're at the whim of others. Make the traveler something of value like a coin then you're only inviting it to disappear.

Coins are good only for collecting. I've heard of some folks having better success with traveling coins by marring them in a way to make them less attractive to collectors. I'm sure YMMV.

It's a hard lesson to learn.

2.2k · May 1, 2008

Also, keep in mind that unpublished caches are not on a reviewer's list, so it is not holding a location up. When a cache is submitted for review, then it is "taking up" the space.

Not quite.

I come across these every now and then, when a cache gets placed too close to these fictional coordinates (fictional because there's not actually a cache there, though the location obviously exists) If the cache I'm reviewing is flagged as too close to another, I look to see what that cache is. Sometimes it's this situation, and I know that the cache is not intended for publishing, I'll go ahead and list the one that was actually submitted.

If the coin-holding cache is just disabled, it will show up. If the person who created it archived it, then it won't raise the proximity flag. It's an extra step sometimes, but not all that often.

The reason this is the case is for those who are setting up a cache for an event (and holding it until the event to list it), or they're getting permission for placement but have created the cache page while they're awaiting a reply, etc. It doesn't show up in the queue, but does indeed "take up the space". It's up to me to determine whether it should take up the space (an actual cache to list at some point) vs one that shouldn't (one that's merely holding a stash of geocoins/TBs)

/Q

2.2k · May 1, 2008

Oops, my bad. I was under the mistaken impression that it held the position based upon the coordinates entered into it. So, since it doesn't place-hold until it is sent to the reviewer, the only real issue is that of making things in accessible to others.

You were correct.

22k · May 1, 2008

Granted, this is a cacher issue, but this would be a good way to make travelers disappear, leaving the traveler's owner with no recourse. Unless some computer forensics and 'social engineering' is performed, there is no way for the less technically inclined cacher to be able to find out more about what happened. You're locked out and have no way of finding out anything about it.

Besides, I would believe the intent of the application process is to place a cache, not to hold the application open indefinitely for personal storage. As mentioned above, using an archived cache would be just as suitable, in order to maintain personal inventories.

For the less technically inclined sure, but it's an open book to a reviewer. It's really not a very good hiding place. The majority of stolen coins simply disappear, lost bugs are held by cacher who never respond. Logging them and then dropping them into a cache tied to your account leaves quite a trail to be followed.

May 1, 2008

Ah, I'm a bit wiser now.

By the way, this isn't a "My coin is missing!" thread. As I'm well aware that they will roll off the geocaching map, as it were. It's something of a social barometer to me and I find it interesting to see how people treat them, taking pictures of their exploits, telling neat stories, etc. I've had a few go away, but I've also had two of them mysteriously reincarnate themselves (one of them twice). I understand that people will always covet somebody else's item and off it goes... I drop them because I have faith in (most) people.

I was just thinking that I found yet another strange way to work your geocaching experience, and unfortunately, it is causing some collateral issues.

22k · May 1, 2008

By the way, this isn't a "My coin is missing!" thread

Okay good. I was just about to give some advice about the coin. (took a bit of digging to find it)

May 1, 2008

Thanks for the work, BlueDuece but I've put the wheels in motion and I'll see if anything come of it. Besides, I was more interested in the inner-workings of how long-term unpublished caches were existing and how they may affect the playing field. I have thusly been educated, thanks to all whom have responded so far.

18.9k · May 1, 2008

I've seen a few different reasons for why cachers sometimes do this. Ranges from a way to unclutter pages to a way to hide a coin to using such a page to track any number of things. I really don't understand it or the odd obsession to create and collect geo-coins.

May 1, 2008

I have an unpublished cache near my home coordinates, but I don't store anything in there. I use it to "dip" my own personal geocoins and travel bugs in it to start the mileage count before I send them out into the world. I never would hold/hide anyone else's trackables in it so I could hoard them. That's just not nice.

May 1, 2008

Yes, hoarding of the coins & TBs of others would be considered improper, as might be expected. For myself, I use one of my caches for dipping (and launching) near my house. I guess I kind of figure the owner won't mind...

Edited May 1, 2008 by GodinDraak

24.7k · May 1, 2008

...Any thoughts?

People are creative at solving problems.

The problem being they need a 'home parking lot' for various reasons. Since they can't use their home coods as the parking lot they use an unpublished or archived cache for that purpose.

I am not sure how hard it would be for this site to create for each player a Parking lot. Then you would see something like "Renegade Knight - Parking Lot" 3 TB's one Geocoin. Then links to each. Since some folks don't like showing their home coords and since it's a parking lot you could actually not list the coords for the lot. Just a cache page for it so inventory can be viewed.

1.7k · May 1, 2008

...Any thoughts?

People are creative at solving problems.

The problem being they need a 'home parking lot' for various reasons. Since they can't use their home coods as the parking lot they use an unpublished or archived cache for that purpose.

I am not sure how hard it would be for this site to create for each player a Parking lot. Then you would see something like "Renegade Knight - Parking Lot" 3 TB's one Geocoin. Then links to each. Since some folks don't like showing their home coords and since it's a parking lot you could actually not list the coords for the lot. Just a cache page for it so inventory can be viewed.

I think this is an excellent idea.

May 1, 2008

I have an unpublished cache that I use to hold my own coins. Occasionally I will dip somebody's bug into it, pull it back out and send it on its way with the improved mileage. The cache infringes on no one's likely location, it is called by its actual location, "Under the Desk". So far as I can tell I'm the only cacher in the village and I don't think anybody has the neighbor's fence under his list of possibles. Other than one number in a base 31 numbering system it's not anything but a place holder so that my inventory doesn't get unreadable and unwieldly.

hairball

May 1, 2008

*waves to local cacher* Hi, GodinDraak!

There's a lot of odd, crazy and strange things that people do and no sense of logic behind it. I can see why people would use unpublished caches as a personal storage of THEIR coins, but it does leave a bread crumb trail for those trying to "keep" other people's coins - so I don't see why they'd do that. Some unforseen circumstance or a mistake perhaps. Good luck getting it back, though.

Edited May 1, 2008 by PyrateWench

1.4k · May 1, 2008

I have an unpublished cache that I use to hold my own coins. Occasionally I will dip somebody's bug into it, pull it back out and send it on its way with the improved mileage. The cache infringes on no one's likely location, it is called by its actual location, "Under the Desk". So far as I can tell I'm the only cacher in the village and I don't think anybody has the neighbor's fence under his list of possibles. Other than one number in a base 31 numbering system it's not anything but a place holder so that my inventory doesn't get unreadable and unwieldly.

hairball

Another use for an unpublished page is to upload photos on it in order to host your photos that you put up on your active cache pages. This keeps them clear of all those icons that can stretch the page out so much. I find it is easier and faster than using Flicker or Picasso. It prevents broken links to images too because if GC.com is up, so are your images.

2.2k · May 1, 2008

Until gc.com comes up with a better method of separating personal TBs out of a person's inventory, I don't mind the idea. In fact, I'm thinking of setting one up myself. I activate all of the geocoins that I own because I have no interest in trading them but I like to take them to events and allow the icon hunters of the world to discover them if they choose. That means my Inventory is always full and sometimes a "legitimate" traveler gets lost in the clutter.

However, I don't think I would drop someone else's trackable into that cache.

May 1, 2008

I've seen alot of that here in Utah, it can be frustrating when you want to know what's up with your traveler and they leave it there for months, or forever... lol

22k · May 1, 2008

Until gc.com comes up with a better method of separating personal TBs out of a person's inventory, I don't mind the idea. In fact, I'm thinking of setting one up myself. I activate all of the geocoins that I own because I have no interest in trading them but I like to take them to events and allow the icon hunters of the world to discover them if they choose. That means my Inventory is always full and sometimes a "legitimate" traveler gets lost in the clutter.

However, I don't think I would drop someone else's trackable into that cache.

And of course you know you can move them to an Unknown Location to get them out of your drop inventory. People can still Discover them.

May 1, 2008

I keep my coins in an archived (unpublished cache) just to keep them separate from TB's and coins I have picked up along the way. However I never ever put anything in that cache that I don't own. If it is a traveler I keep it in my personal visible inventory as a reminder to move it.

It is quite full at the moment, but starting tomorrow these travelers will be dropped at various locations in Arizona.

May 1, 2008

*waves to local cacher* Hi, GodinDraak!

Hi there, Pyrate Wench! Gotta meet up sometime...

Yeah, I'm not too worried about the coin because it's the odd, crazy things that happen to them that interests me. As for me starting this topic, I was just wondering how an unpublished cache could remain in stasis for so long. So far, the concensus seems to be that an unpublished cache can be used for more than just a stash spot, but for other things too. Seems like there might be a way to fill the need with a tool specifically designed to accomplish the different ways of putting an unpublished cache to use.

May 2, 2008

I keep my coins in an archived (unpublished cache) just to keep them separate from TB's and coins I have picked up along the way.

I think ( and there's always a chance I'm wrong ) that we're talking about caches that have never been reviewed or published, an archived cache is different, to me, because it's "Viewable," the times I've coem across a cache being used as "Virtual traveler storage" it's been an unreviewed unpublished cache that nobody except Cache owner and reviewer can see.

Also a few people have said "I never do that with other people's bugs" but some people do, and I think that's the original problem mentioned here.

1.7k · May 2, 2008

I just mark my Geocoins as "missing". They stay on my profile but off the list of travel bugs/Geocoins in my possession.

May 2, 2008

I try not to drop bugs or coins into a new cache listing since most of mine take about 3 or more months for the land managment to approve. interesting to know that when I write up the page and mark no to sending to reviews that they still know there's a possible something out there.

I have dropped all my coins and bug (my dog is a travel bug) into an archived cache to keep them out of inventory.

1.1k · May 2, 2008

An unpublished cache is not viewable even if it is archived. Those of you that are using an unpublished cache please archive them also. If they are only unpublished then they do show up when the reviewer checks for proximity. Make it easier on your reviewer and archive it too so that it doesn't show up in proximity checks, please.

6.1k · May 3, 2008

I would think using an unpublished cache for storing coins that belong to that person is ok, but for storing other peoples coins is just not right.

As the owner of the coin, you can edit the title of your missing coin to "STOLEN", and/or move it to an unknown or different location, if they wont release it or answer your e-mails.

Edited May 3, 2008 by 4wheelin_fool

2.4k · May 3, 2008

The reason this is the case is for those who are setting up a cache for an event (and holding it until the event to list it), or they're getting permission for placement but have created the cache page while they're awaiting a reply, etc. It doesn't show up in the queue, but does indeed "take up the space". It's up to me to determine whether it should take up the space (an actual cache to list at some point) vs one that shouldn't (one that's merely holding a stash of geocoins/TBs)

Thanks for this little tidbit of information -- I never knew that that was the case. It will change my cache-page-creation habits from now on.

I've had several cache pages that took well over a year to go from concept to publishing -- often I'll have an idea, create the cache page, and then it takes me a while to find just the right spot, or create the right container. All this time I was under the impression that the coords I had temporarily put on the page were meaningless -- I had no idea that they could actually show up in a proximity check for other caches under review, causing extra work for the reviewer.

21.9k · May 3, 2008

This happens often enough that I have a form letter for it:

What are your intentions regarding this cache? Someone else has hidden a cache less than 528 feet away and it is ready for review. But, your cache page was entered in our system first. If your cache will be ready for review in the near future please let me know, and it will be given priority over the later submission. If it won't be ready for six months then it is not fair to hog the spot.

Please get back to me as soon as possible via e-mail through my profile page. Do NOT leave a note here on the cache page. I need to provide an answer to the hider of the other cache.

Thank you,

Keystone

Geocaching.com Volunteer Cache Reviewer

When I see these caches, I *do* look at the inventory of trackables. If I see a bunch of geocoins with the cache owner's name in the title (Billy's Pennsylvania Geocoin, Billy's Ohio Geocoin, etc.), then I know it's just a personal trackables dropoff. If I see a bunch of random travel bugs and one of every color jeep, I take a closer look and... ahem... I customize my form letter appropriately. It would then include phrases like "So you thought you could hide in this dark corner, you miserable thieving cockroach? Guess again."

2k · May 3, 2008

This happens often enough that I have a form letter for it:

What are your intentions regarding this cache? Someone else has hidden a cache less than 528 feet away and it is ready for review. But, your cache page was entered in our system first. If your cache will be ready for review in the near future please let me know, and it will be given priority over the later submission. If it won't be ready for six months then it is not fair to hog the spot.

Please get back to me as soon as possible via e-mail through my profile page. Do NOT leave a note here on the cache page. I need to provide an answer to the hider of the other cache.

Thank you,

Keystone

Geocaching.com Volunteer Cache Reviewer

When I see these caches, I *do* look at the inventory of trackables. If I see a bunch of geocoins with the cache owner's name in the title (Billy's Pennsylvania Geocoin, Billy's Ohio Geocoin, etc.), then I know it's just a personal trackables dropoff. If I see a bunch of random travel bugs and one of every color jeep, I take a closer look and... ahem... I customize my form letter appropriately. It would then include phrases like "So you thought you could hide in this dark corner, you miserable thieving cockroach? Guess again."

I say you let us know who these cretins are. Then we can form an angry mob and go after them.

By the way, I'm having a special on pitchforks and torches, by one get the other half price. If we get a decent sized mob together I can get us a bulk rate. Strictly a cash deal.

Edited May 3, 2008 by gof1

May 4, 2008

Well, the cause for opening this thread just reached fruition.

I was contacted by the last holder of the coin in question. The coin was lost, so the cacher in question had tucked it in his 'stash-cache' to take it out of his inventory. He responded, after I contacted a reviewer local to his area, with an offer to replace the coin and was remorseful about it. I just told him that I wanted to know why it stalled for so long, then simply marked it as missing. I did decline his offer of a replacement coin because I was only interesting in knowing its whereabouts, not in getting something out of it. So, this one is resolved as far as I'm concerned, but unfortunately, this is what I was talking about. Somebody can use their 'stash-cache' as a way to conceal an 'oopsie'. Unless a geocacher knows how to do a bit of legwork like this, he will be left not knowing what happened to his traveler and unsure of what to do about it because the cache page it is residing in is inaccessible to him.

So, in conclusion, unpublished caches are being used for a warehouse of sorts for moving travelers in and out of a cacher's inventory and they are also used for other myriad ways. But the downsides are that it creates more work for the local reviewers because the unpublished cache holds a coordinate placemark, and they are a closed box to the general geocaching public which means we have to ask a reviewer (adding more work load) to peek inside or contact the cacher for us.

Perhaps this might be an opportunity to look at the merits of creating a 'stash-cache' or such, that can be operated by a cacher, but will not hold a position on the playing field, be so cloak-and-dagger in it's accessibility and can lessen the work load on the reviewer.

21.9k · May 4, 2008

Nearly a year ago, in this post, Jeremy spoke of plans to introduce a "collection list" feature, separate from one's inventory of bugs and coins available to drop in caches. This would seem to fit the bill better than parking extra OWNED trackables in an unpublished or archived cache listing.

I don't know the status of this feature but I haven't heard anything contradicting the prior favorable mention.

May 5, 2008

After reading Jeremy's musings on a similar subject, it looks like that would be just the thing. Hopefully, Jeremy hasn't let it die by the wayside. At the risk of revealing my fondness for the animated movie, 'Robots'; "See A Need, Fill A Need".

May 6, 2008

I think people have got the jist - GC.com needs a more inventive solution.

I have a cache that was never activated AND I archived that I store my personal geocoins in, I also use it to kick start my travelling GC/TB's mileage and to upload photos that aren't related to any particular cache.

This cache, "Kifcog's geocoin piggybank" is my home coordinates, but nobody can see it because it has never been activated. I would love people to be able to browse the GC's I hav ein it and to view some of the photos, but they can't!

I would love for a solution, perhaps a "home cache" (with the coordinates hidden) or a section on the profile where you can drop things - GC.com already has my home coordinates for calculating my nearest caches, surely it can't be that difficult to have all TB's and GC's set of from them.

As for the original post, I think this is a simple case of somebody mishandling your TB. I would NEVER log somebody elses TB into my cache as it is inaccessable!

May 8, 2008

Rather than making a single 'personal collection list', i'd suggest implementing a more-flexible set of user-defined folders.

So, by default, you'd have these folders

Inventory

Personal Collection <Folder> <Checkbox to Show this folder on your profile page>

<Subfolder - custom name, 2007 coins, whatever) <Checkbox to show this folder in public>

Coins to Drop <Folder> <Checkbox to Show this folder on your profile page>

... Additional custom folders addable by user, all with the option to show the list on your profile page.

-Ben

Edited May 8, 2008 by benh57

Unpublished Caches

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