Getting coordinates from geo-referenced PDFs?

[Wintertime]

Klemmer just brought my attention to the new section of the USGS online store that offers free downloads of geo-referenced PDF files. The URL for the specific page often has redirect errors and seems to be tied to session IDs, but if you go to this page and click on the image that says, "Map Locator & Downloader Try It Now!", you will (with luck) reach the download page. (If you get a redirect error, click the Try Again button.)

 

My question is, what software is available to take advantage of these geo-referenced PDF files? The download page only mentions one: "Optional free GeoPDF Toolbar provides more ways to interact with USGS topo maps." There's a link to the website of TerraGo Technologies to get that toolbar for Adobe Reader. (BTW, the download page says it's for Windows only, but doesn't say which versions. And their System Requirements document isn't forthcoming.) The phrase, "provides more ways to interact with USGS topo maps" implies that GeoPDF Toolbar is not the only software that works with geo-referenced PDFs. Does anyone here know of other tools for those files?

 

Patty

[AZcachemeister]

Klemmer just brought my attention to the new section of the USGS online store that offers free downloads of geo-referenced PDF files. The URL for the specific page often has redirect errors and seems to be tied to session IDs, but if you go to this page and click on the image that says, "Map Locator & Downloader Try It Now!", you will (with luck) reach the download page. (If you get a redirect error, click the Try Again button.)

 

My question is, what software is available to take advantage of these geo-referenced PDF files? The download page only mentions one: "Optional free GeoPDF Toolbar provides more ways to interact with USGS topo maps." There's a link to the website of TerraGo Technologies to get that toolbar for Adobe Reader. (BTW, the download page says it's for Windows only, but doesn't say which versions. And their System Requirements document isn't forthcoming.) The phrase, "provides more ways to interact with USGS topo maps" implies that GeoPDF Toolbar is not the only software that works with geo-referenced PDFs. Does anyone here know of other tools for those files?

 

Patty

 

Not familiar with this product.

Edited May 2, 2008 by AZcachemeister

[+Klemmer]

I've installed the GeoPDF Tool Bar in my office Dell with XP Professional SP2, and it works well with the 3 topo maps I tried on it:

SoCal area 7.5 minute, 30X60 minute, and 1X2 degree

 

The price is right, and it works for me. I'm covered in California with all the Delorme stuff (including USGS 7.5 min topos), but this geo.pdf deal looks good for me out of CA when on the road, with my laptop.

 

I also just installed it at home om XP Home SP2. Both are using Adobe Acrobat Reader 8 (which may be required by the GeoPDF Toolbar). I was a little surprised when it found an older version, and I guess I vaguely remember installing it, but geo referenced pdf files were very new, few and far between. Now that USGS seems to be going that way, for free even, I'm good with GeoPDF Toolbar. Still exploring features.

 

WHOA! Check this out: It imports .gpx, .kml, .kmx, .shp and .csv files. Cool! It will also read current position from an attached GPS receiver. WOW! Is USGS behind this? Not good for Delorme's software business.....

 

I say - worth looking at! Got to go play with it more now..... Uh... GeoPDF Toolbar that is.....

 

Sorry, Patty, looks like no MAC support. Write your congress person, especially if USGS behind it, which I think they must be.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

I have been working with them some.

 

I am sure if you want to know more about this you can contact them.

This is one I got a while back.

Greetings,

My name is Jesse Hardin. I work for TerraGo Technologies as a GeoSpatial Business Development Specialist.

TerraGo Technologies is the exclusive provider of the GeoPDF® file, the only geospatial data distribution and collaboration format that leverages the Adobe® Portable Document Format (PDF), giving users powerful mapping functionality and capabilities via an application already installed on over 900 million computers worldwide.

Using Map2PDF software within a desktop or server environment, you can quickly and easily convert both vector and raster layers into GeoPDF files that can include advanced security options such as 128-bit and public-private key encryption, allowing file distribution via Internet download, email or CD.

Users who have the free Adobe Reader® and the free GeoPDF Toolbar can view, manipulate, and update GIS maps, which is especially helpful for those working in the field.

Feature Overview:

Turn layers on and off

Query attribute data

View multiple coordinate displays

Measure distances, area, and bearings

Export comments and markups as a shapefile or kml

Connect to a GPS and track the current location

Google Map a position from the GeoPDF file

Import GPX, CSV, KML, KMZ, or Shapefiles

I invite you to view a GeoPDF sample by clicking on the link below (you must “save as” to your desktop to experience full capabilities):

http://www.terragotech.com/Peachtree-Park_GME.pdf

Note that each individual parcel has embedded data which is searchable in Adobe and our GeoMark toolbar is active.

If you’d like me to help you get started streamlining the distribution of your Geospatial Data, give me a call at 678-391-9765. You can also reach me via email.

Best regards,

Jesse Hardin

TerraGo Technologies, Inc.

1600 Parkwood Circle, STE 300

Atlanta, GA 30339

(W)678-391-9765, ©404-944-1829

(F)678-391-9701

jhardin@terragotech.com

 

P.S. For more information, visit www.terragotech.com.

 

This was the last one and I missed it.

 

 

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[+Klemmer]

Sample image from Klemmer's area, with NGS BM's uploaded from a .gpx file (converted from NGS .dat file).

Good solution (only one with free nationwide USGS Topos?) when you are not on the net. If on the net (wideband), Scardeycat Film's Benchmark View would be my preference.

[Wintertime]

So I guess the answer to my question about other georeferenced PDF software is "No"?

 

I don't care which platform the other solutions run on; I have a fine topo solution for myself. I'm just trying to find out whether there are any. The USGS's statement implied that there were, but maybe, even though the statement was on a page for downloading digital maps, they were referring to non-digital maps.

 

Patty

Edited May 1, 2008 by Wintertime

[+Klemmer]

I'm not aware of any others, Patty. Maybe ESRI might, they are the big boys in GIS. I'll ask my daughter Kim; I think she might work with some of ESRI's programs.

Edited May 1, 2008 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

[Mesa Mike]

GeoPDF toolbar and geo-referenced PDFs of official USGS topo maps!

 

Way cool. I've almost gotten over the loss of Topozone.

[+Klemmer]

I'm waaay over it.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

So, just what is a "geo-referenced PDF files"?

 

John

[+Klemmer]

John:

In a nutshell, they are maps (in this case USGS topos of various scales), which have been accurately aligned in software, in pdf format, in terms of Lat/Long & UTM. So they give you detail mapping capability, using GeoPDF Toolbar in Acrobat Reader (or other software, if ever in the future).

 

After more learning with it, I am even more impressed with it. Capabilities are similar to Delorme Topo Quads, but can be anywhere in the US, for free. Good deal for laptops on the road, if you like the details of USGS topos, IMHO. With wide-band internet access, there are other good options (Google Earth, Benchmark Viewer, USAPhotoMap, etc). Also Delorme or NatGeo USGS topos, at about $100 per State, if you prefer. Or I suppose, paper maps & pencil / ruler, should you like the old school approach.

 

Klem

Edited May 1, 2008 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

[Wintertime]

Note that georeferenced topo maps are already available for free download in most states (e.g. from CASIL here in California), but the great thing about the new USGS downloads is that they cover all states. (At least, I assume so; I haven't looked at the downloader map in detail yet.)

 

Now we just need a viewer that works in UNIX! Although, as I stated in my original question, I'd also like to know about other software available for any platform.

 

Patty

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

I guess I need to see where to find the value here for me. I used to collect maps, but not now with everybody and his/her brother/sister providing on-line (free) services that provide seamless areas across the US with different zoom levels which generally include topo map tiles from the USGS (Terraserver).

 

I use Google Maps with Topo tiles supplied from the Terraserver. I can go anywhere in the US with ease and zoom, pan etc. As for supporting gpx files KML, XML, etc. it's all there with a little work. ScardeyCat's maps are great for Browsing, and I use mine for reporting.

 

So why do I need to download umpteen large files and still not have the ones I need when my wife says "We're visiting the in-laws in Iowa". There's a lot of excitement here from posters I highly respect so maybe I'm missing something - please educate me.

 

I downloaded the toolbar and a quad from Maine I had been to last fall. I made a couple of screen shots comparing the maximum zoom supported with Google Maps/Terraserver, and with the PDF Viewer, adjusting the later to produce (about) the same resolution. Observe below, the PDF has much more bleeding, and also it uses polyconic projection rather than Mercator which is pretty standard with on-line maps. I like it when north is up and east is right (locally). See for yourself:

 

Station PD0690 "Quoddy" with the PDF Viewer:

 

 

Station PD0690 "Quoddy" with the Google Maps with tiles from Terraserver:

 

[+Klemmer]

Papa Bear:

For me, it is the capability to put the USGS Topos from other states on my laptop when I travel (business, vacation, etc). Very often (usually?) I can't get decent wide-band internet connections. If you have good internet (not wireless), then BM Viewer, GE, Terraserver, etc, are fine. I'm tired of slow wireless in hotels. And forget internet in some places. I don't do dial-up. Maybe I need better hotels/motels (?). The price for the maps & software is right, also.

 

BTW: Educate me on Polyconic vs Mercator? Are they not all raster scanned USGS topos? My CA 7.5' quads say Polyconic...... Where would you get Mercator from? and why?

 

P.S. Here's my "standard" reference on projections.

Edit: OK, reviewed the how & why of projections. Are some (more recent?) USGS 7.5 min quads topos mercator? I thought they were all polyconic? anyone?

 

You may have a point on the bleeding. Gotta look into that. Some pdf compression is flakey at times.

Edit: The geo.pdf looks a lot better than the BM Viewer's (GE based, right?) USGS topos, at the same screen scale. And the geo_pdf can zoom waaaay lower than the BM Viewer. Just a quick comparison.

Edit2: I can definitely get a better quality map (no bleed at all, really) using the 25MB xxx.tif file from CASIL which I have used sometime (CA source for USGS topos), comapred to the 14MB xxgeo.pdf. But no georeference on the tif, and harder to work with. I guess you pays you money (or e-time) & takes your choice.

 

Klemmer

Edited May 2, 2008 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

[Wintertime]

Edit2: I can definitely get a better quality map (no bleed at all, really) using the 25MB xxx.tif file from CASIL which I have used sometime (CA source for USGS topos), comapred to the 14MB xxgeo.pdf. But no georeference on the tif, and harder to work with. I guess you pays you money (or e-time) & takes your choice.

Okay, maybe I don't understand the term "georeferenced." I thought, as you referred to earlier, that it meant they were aligned. In other words, you can click anywhere on the map, and it will display accurate (to some level of "accurate") coordinates.

 

If that's correct, then in what sense aren't the CASIL maps georeferenced?

 

Patty

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Projection: Mercator ve. Polyconic

 

The projection is done by the map server software. The source of the maps (the paper USGS maps) is the same. These are polyconic. Look carefully and you'll see the top of the map is narrower than the bottom. The PDF files seem to reproduce this. So right angles on the ground are not right angles and north may not be straight up. But they do reproduce the real world (where meridians do converge as you move north) rather well. They preserve areas (I think), but not angles, so things are the right size. Unfortunately, with a curved surface being portrayed on a plane, you can't have everything.

 

Mercator is a projection that preserves angles. So right angles are still right angles. On a large scale this produces bad distortions (Remember how Greenland looked the same size as South America on certain maps), but when you divide things up in small pieces it gives a more "natural" look and feel and it's better when you are checking angles for property lines, reference marks, etc.. Besides the standard for Web maps is a type of Mercator (called 4326), so you have to have all your tiles the same projection.

 

UTM is also a variation on Mercator (Universal Transverse Mercator). When the UTM grid lines are shown on a polyconic map, you will see how the two don't line up.

 

In the case of a 1:24000 map (7.5 minute series) you are just about at the point where you can see the difference. If you take my two images and switch back and forth, you'll see that one maps is rotated slightly from the other.

 

The map server software "fixes" the projection by realigning each tile slightly (you will see occasional dislocations going from one original map to the next). You could also distort the whole thing by stretching it slightly, but I don't think they do that.

 

Should we care? Probably not. On the ground or looking at a small area you will not see a difference, so it's no big deal.

[Wintertime]

FWIW, the California topos (of various scales) that are provided on CASIL use Albers Equal Area Projection.

 

Here's their description of it: "A conic projection that distorts scale and distance except along standard parallels. Areas are proportional and directions are true in limited areas. Used in the United States and other large countries with a larger east-west than north-south extent."

 

There's also this sentence about how the maps were made: "The source maps for DRGs were georeferenced to the UTM grid, but images DRGs for California are available in Albers equal area projection..."

 

Patty

[+Klemmer]

PapaBear: Thanks. As usual, a nice description & conclusion. I didn't know the on-line guys were changing the projections. As you concluded, probably doesn't matter for most of our purposes.

 

Patty: Your understanding of georeferenced seems right, to me. Yes, I understand that the CASIL topo "packages" (more than one file typically needed, I believe) are georeferenced, but what software do you use them on that give you "cursor position"? Then there are also other functions I like (dropping on waypoints from files, changing them, making measurements, etc,). Nothing I have or normally use in the PC world will do that for the .tif (and other) files from CASIL. I think that they are designed for ESRI ARCGIS series of software. There is a free "viewer only" from ESRI that I looked at several years ago, but it was difficult (for me) to use, and didn't do half of what I need. The full-up versions are very seriusly priced. There are also Mr. Sid files on CASIL last I looked, but ditto on their stuff. My bottom line, best of my knowledge, the CASIL stuff (and maybe other states?) may be georeferenced, but is designed for "professional level" GIS software. On the other hand, it seems almost everyone with a computer has Acrobat Reader, and can use it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (as does happen regularly).

 

I guess one problem might be that you can't use / see the GeoPDF Toolbar on your Mac. I understand. Darn PC world anyway. I started off as an Apple person (Apple II even), but got dragged into the PC world by business use.

 

Re Albers Equal Area Projection. Well, there's another projection we can not worry about. I dunno, something about getting the "real" USGS topos appeals to me. Just a traditionalist, I guess. I saw on the USGS website that even they are bailing out on the polyconic projections for future maps. That still leaves a gazillion 7.5 quads and other USGS maps out there with polyconic projections. Hmmm... now I wonder what Delorme uses! I'll have to check tonight. Oh well.

Edited May 2, 2008 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

[Wintertime]

Patty: Your understanding of georeferenced seems right, to me. Yes, I understand that the CASIL topo "packages" (more than one file typically needed, I believe) are georeferenced,

Whether you need more than just the .TIF file depends what software you use. Some software needs the external georeferencing information contained in the .TFW files, some is able to calibrate the map from the data built into the .TIF file.

 

but what software do you use them on that give you "cursor position"?

MacGPS Pro. That's exactly how I've been getting benchmark coordinates that are so accurate. (Much more accurate than the scaled coordinates in the NGS datasheets.) Oh, and I also recently used it to calibrate a JPG map of Walt Disney World, then I clicked on the locations of some survey points to derive coordinates that allowed Nick to find some new marks. (I had to calibrate that map semi-manually, by giving MacGPS Pro the locations of a few adjusted NGS benchmarks. But once it had calibrated the map, I was able to click on any other location to get that location's coordinates.)

 

When I first got MacGPS Pro, it needed the .TFW files. (Although it used them automatically when I imported a newly downloaded .TIF file; I didn't have to do anything with the .TFW file except download it.) But 2-3 years ago, MacGPS Pro was upgraded to get the calibration info directly from the .TIF file, so I no longer have to download the accompanying .TFW files. (I don't know what the .AUX files are for.)

 

Then there are also other functions I like (dropping on waypoints from files, changing them, making measurements, etc,). Nothing I have or normally use in the PC world will do that for the .tif (and other) files from CASIL.

Other functions of...?? GeoPDF Toolbar? Oh, I never realized that you hadn't had those capabilities until now and thus hadn't been able to take advantage of the CASIL files. No wonder you're excited! I guess because we've only met up at Disneyland, where the benchmark locations are known and the marks themselves easy to find, you and I have never sat down and used MacGPS Pro. I use it on all my Yosemite trips, so you'll see it if we benchmark there this summer! It lives on my MacBook, along with all the Yosemite-area topos, the benchmark waypoint files I've made from them, and of course the NGS .dat files for the relevant counties.

 

My bottom line, best of my knowledge, the CASIL stuff (and maybe other states?) may be georeferenced, but is designed for "professional level" GIS software.

I'm sure there is professional software that can use the CASIL files. In fact, I imagine that's why the files were uploaded in the first place: for professional and research users who have something like ESRI's products. Luckily, I can do everything I want with consumer-grade software!

 

I guess one problem might be that you can't use / see the GeoPDF Toolbar on your Mac.

It's true that I can't use GeoPDF Toolbar, but I don't perceive that as a problem! It sounds like it wouldn't give me any more capabilities than I already have. In fact, unless the toolbar allows Adobe Reader to connect directly to a GPS receiver, it probably doesn't do everything I can do already.

 

Patty

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

"In fact, unless the toolbar allows Adobe Reader to connect directly to a GPS receiver, it probably doesn't do everything I can do already."

 

It does allow you to hook up to your GPS.

Thats what I like about them.

[+Klemmer]

Interesting stuff, Patty. Good for Mac!

Right, I haven't had "stand-alone" (non-internet) georeferenced USGS topos before. No one else seems that excited, so I guess it's just a Klemmer thing.

 

As Geo said, the GeoPDF Toolbar does have GPS direct connections. Haven't tried it yet, but I will.

[Wintertime]

I didn't think I was imagining things about there being Windows software that can work with georeferenced DRGs and other digital map formats (including scanned maps). At least, I think the two products mentioned in this thread can take advantage of the georeference information. There's mention of uploading and downloading waypoints, so the software must know where each point on the map is. I don't know whether they need the .tfw file in order to calibrate, but if they do, it should be easy to incorporate the .tfw with the main .tif file.

 

Patty

 

p.s. My friend Bob bought Fugawi, but we had a lot of trouble using it. So if anyone here has it or decides to get it, and you figure out how to use it, please let me know. :-)

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

If I remember you can also load KML files and GPX files.

 

It has been a while since I have tinkered with it but I was using it some when doing the 911 City Map for a town.

I have other programs that I prefer and are much faster and easier to use.

 

I am reading up and I need to get back on one of those on-line conferences again.

It is cool how a whole bunch of you can get together and interactivly work on a document.

And talk all at the same time.

 

I just can't seem to get any of the "Officials" around here to look into on-line collaboration and interactivty.

I have an idea of getting all the County mapped out and interactive within the County document system.

It is rather cumbersome to have to look all that up from Old Plats and books.

It would be awesome and if I could get the idea out there to have the Plat Maps Interactive so that when one went in to look for an area they could use a multitude of search options to see their property or other property mapped out.

 

They have started using computers to do the more recent work but have no plats or maps with it yet.

Just some rambling ....