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mtn-man wrote:

There are landowner policies in place on the GAGB site here, but there is no mention of any railway exceptions on that web page. In addition, seeing that the site was just hacked, it would probably be good for this information to be stored directly on the Groundspeak database and not just linked to the site.

My understanding, and Alan has said much the same above, is that under English law it would be illegal for GAGB to release personal data without the express permission of everyone whose details are in there. With all respect, our database contains rather more information than you, or indeed most people, are seeing. The web pages are just extracts from the database. There's a lot of personal contact information in there that's only visible to our committee, and most if not all of the agreements have been made on that understanding.

This is not a public collection of information. It is simply an internal reference area that reviewers themselves contribute to so there would be no public disclosure. Trust me, I won't be adding a thing based on the negative reactions generated here. :D:D

 

I apologize for attempting to help current and future reviewers in the UK. Any errors made by not knowing about this information would of course not be the fault of any geocaching.com reviewer I suppose.

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It seem pretty clear it is a charity event. I hope that clarifies things and helps with your questions.

 

 

Of course it doesn't, as I feel you know full well.

 

So let me re-ask the point you did not consider..........and since I cobbled the quotes up so badly last post I'll cut and paste :D

 

"Point 2:

 

I do not understand how a charity can be described as a commercial venture.

 

I fully understand and agree with the GSP forum guideline:

 

"Commercial Postings/Solicitations are not allowed. Commercial content as a direct or indirect (either intentional or non-intentional) attempt to solicit customers through a forum post will be edited or deleted."

 

just as much as I fully understand - and disagree - with the cache listing guideline:

 

"Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda."

 

....but charitable threads are NOT in breach of the forum guidelines as currently published -

 

Which could bring me to another problem I have had with Groundspeak - but one thing at a time eh!"

 

Well????

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Please help me to understand - What is evil and wrong about cachers (or anyone) wishing to raise money for charity?

 

At our last event we held a raffle and raised £120 for the local Childrens Hospice - why do I have to secretly email all participants and tell them? Why is is to so "against the rules" to mention it in these forums.

 

I really really don't understand.

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Unfortunately, we do not plan to issue any further comments or explanations regarding this issue.

 

That was the final quote on my "A Civil Question" thread........and that was from Rothstafari the Vice President and co-founder of Groundspeak, it looks like they meant it.

 

I wrote a polite email asking for an answer to some question and also the GAGB (who carry much more weight than me have emailed too) I received a reply saying that GC do not plan to say any more and I think the GAGB will receive a reply in time, lets step back, breathe and wait for their reply.

 

We are going around in circles and getting nowhere and now some nastiness and mud slinging has started. :D Peter and Dave are not likely to come back and Dece is plodding along, it does not look like anything we can do or say will change anything.

 

:D :D OK I am now used to being slated, beaten with sticks and being dragged across hot coals, so I will ask :D:D

 

 

Is it not time to move on?

 

M :D

Edited by Us 4 and Jess
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No charity begging is allowed because we all have different ideas as to what we consider a worthy cause.

 

To some, an air ambulance service is a worthy charity. To some, killing of animals for ritualistic sacrifice is a worthy charity. To some, working for the enslavement of humans against their will is a worthy charity. To some, raising money to buy bombs for terroristic attacks on US and UK cities is a worthy charity.

 

The site has decided that they will not allow asking for contributions or support for charities.

 

This is not an issue that is open to debate in a regional forum. If you wish to overturn the guidelines on begging for money for charity purposes, they you need to write to Groundspeak directly or open a topic in the Geocaching.com Web Site Forum where it can be debated in the proper place.

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Is it not time to move on?

 

M :D

 

I must admit, the words "brick wall", "banging" and "head" are coming to mind.

 

I'm really disappointed at the selective quoting, insinuations and sniping coming from the 'Groundspeak side' here. It is, however, a good lesson in how to divert a thread into a wide variety of dead-end topics while avoiding the issue. Nothing they've said has dealt with the substantive points, which I think have been well made. I expected something better than this.

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....but charitable threads are NOT in breach of the forum guidelines as currently published -

 

Which could bring me to another problem I have had with Groundspeak - but one thing at a time eh!"

 

Well????

Down at the bottom of the forum guidelines, it says:

Additional Terms: The Groundspeak Forums are further governed by the GEOCACHING.COM SITE TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT, the terms of which are hereby incorporated into these guidelines by reference. The Terms of Use Agreement may be found here: http://www.geocaching.com/about/termsofuse.aspx

Following that link to the terms of use, move down to Section 4, paragraph (e).

4. Use of Publishing Tools and Forums

 

The Groundspeak Forums, accessible through the “Discuss Geocaching” link in the Site’s navigation bar as well as through other links, are governed by this Agreement and are also subject to such additional terms and conditions as Groundspeak may, from time to time, post in the Groundspeak Forums area.

 

You and not Groundspeak, are entirely responsible for all content that you upload, post or otherwise transmit via the Site. You agree not to:

 

(e) Upload, post or otherwise transmit any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, "junk mail," "spam," "chain letters," "pyramid schemes," or any other form of solicitation.

You are advertising for a charity and posting a solicitation asking for charitable contributions. You are not allowed to do that.

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mtn-man wrote:

This is not a public collection of information. It is simply an internal reference area that reviewers themselves contribute to so there would be no public disclosure. Trust me, I won't be adding a thing based on the negative reactions generated here.

I didn't realize, and from their posts I don't think others did either, that you meant an internal reference area. I don't know how English law stands on that. Please don't assume I was being uncooperative with my earlier post or am being so now - I'm simply concerned about GAGB's legal position. Obviously it's in the interests of GAGB to assist reviewers of UK caches to ensure that the conditions of agreements are adhered to.

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No charity begging is allowed because we all have different ideas as to what we consider a worthy cause.

 

To some, an air ambulance service is a worthy charity. To some, killing of animals for ritualistic sacrifice is a worthy charity. To some, working for the enslavement of humans against their will is a worthy charity. To some, raising money to buy bombs for terroristic attacks on US and UK cities is a worthy charity.

 

The site has decided that they will not allow asking for contributions or support for charities.

 

This is not an issue that is open to debate in a regional forum. If you wish to overturn the guidelines on begging for money for charity purposes, they you need to write to Groundspeak directly or open a topic in the Geocaching.com Web Site Forum where it can be debated in the proper place.

 

Who the 'uck was BEGGING.????

 

There was no BEGGING in the closed threads......

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shame really that Miss Jenn made such an effort to get a picture of a cacher carrying the olympic torch on the front screen but hey mustn't mention that the real reason was about "Dogs for the disabled"

Was it?

 

Personally, I'm disappointed that this whole thing has kicked off about perceived commercial advertising/soliciting and the first thing you see when logging in is the adverts on the right hand side of the main page :D

Edited by The Klever Boys
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This is not a public collection of information. It is simply an internal reference area that reviewers themselves contribute to so there would be no public disclosure.

The fact that only a few people may be able to see the data is irrelevant. Publication is publication, whether it's seen by one person or 6bn. In any case, the offence is exporting personal data beyond the EEA without the express permission of the data subject.

 

But as I said, IANAL (haven't used that acronym for a while :D). If you, Groundspeak or GAGB were seriously contemplating doing anything in this regard - and I make no comment about whether the suggestion itself is good or bad - then you would be well advised to obtain proper legal advice.

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I didn't realize, and from their posts I don't think others did either, that you meant an internal reference area. I don't know how English law stands on that. Please don't assume I was being uncooperative with my earlier post or am being so now - I'm simply concerned about GAGB's legal position. Obviously it's in the interests of GAGB to assist reviewers of UK caches to ensure that the conditions of agreements are adhered to.

Alan White continues to post regarding it. I did not think you were being uncooperative though. You seem to have some pretty level posts and I did not take it that way. I appreciate your follow up. He and others can drop this issue, I've apologized and I will probably not comment any further about it.

 

No charity begging is allowed because we all have different ideas as to what we consider a worthy cause.

 

To some, an air ambulance service is a worthy charity. To some, killing of animals for ritualistic sacrifice is a worthy charity. To some, working for the enslavement of humans against their will is a worthy charity. To some, raising money to buy bombs for terroristic attacks on US and UK cities is a worthy charity.

 

The site has decided that they will not allow asking for contributions or support for charities.

 

This is not an issue that is open to debate in a regional forum. If you wish to overturn the guidelines on begging for money for charity purposes, they you need to write to Groundspeak directly or open a topic in the Geocaching.com Web Site Forum where it can be debated in the proper place.

 

Who the 'uck was BEGGING.????

 

There was no BEGGING in the closed threads......

It has been said that the word "solicitation" is not appropriate, so I chose another word. Feel free to give me a better way to phrase what these sites do and I might use it. I am not against charities and give money and time to some, but I don't feel the need to advertise that in the forums.

 

is this a joke as well Greg?

Mtn-Man. Forum moderator when Keystone lets me

Well, I guess in light of the part that proceeds it... :D:D Maybe it was a little more recent than 1891. :D

 

I also thought the "approver of all trades" comment was funny at the time and has been a part of my signature line since it was written. The last line regarding my favorite caches and the bookmark lists for them is serious though. Some of the places people have brought me to with geocaches are remarkable.

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It has been said that the word "solicitation" is not appropriate, so I chose another word. Feel free to give me a better way to phrase what these sites do and I might use it. I am not against charities and give money and time to some, but I don't feel the need to advertise that in the forums.

 

I must say when I was told I was soliciting (the UK meaning) my calendars I was horrified :D ........OMG I thought I am a married woman with kids I dont do soliciting :D

 

I must admit the word begging is unpleasant, some one "might" ask for a donation for charity but more than likely (like my own calendar) they would advertise they are making/doing something and say they are being sold/sponsored to do this and a donation to charity would be welcomed.

 

I do not ask people for money and I definitely dont beg people for money, I say I am doing this and the money is going towards this and if you would like one please contact me. :D

 

Do you have anything for nettle rash :D:D

 

Mandy :D

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Quick question...(please a simple response would be appreciated)

 

Can the forum have a thread discussing a gathering of geocachers running/walking/crawling/rolling through mud...discussing no money/no charity and with no links to external sites that do discuss money or charity, without fear of getting it locked down?

 

This is a closed ended question, requiring a one word answer.

 

Many Thanks

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It has been said that the word "solicitation" is not appropriate, so I chose another word. Feel free to give me a better way to phrase what these sites do and I might use it. I am not against charities and give money and time to some, but I don't feel the need to advertise that in the forums.

 

I must say when I was told I was soliciting (the UK meaning) my calendars I was horrified :D ........OMG I thought I am a married woman with kids I dont do soliciting :D

 

I must admit the word begging is unpleasant, some one "might" ask for a donation for charity but more than likely (like my own calendar) they would advertise they are making/doing something and say they are being sold/sponsored to do this and a donation to charity would be welcomed.

 

I do not ask people for money and I definitely dont beg people for money, I say I am doing this and the money is going towards this and if you would like one please contact me. :D

 

Do you have anything for nettle rash :D:D

 

Mandy :D

 

Although...looks like at least some people in the UK use the same definition that Groundspeak is applying here:

 

Charity Commission for England and Wales

 

They use the "S" word quite a bit.

 

A professional fundraiser is any person (apart from the charitable institution or a company connected with such an institution) who carries on a fundraising business for gain which is wholly or primarily engaged in soliciting or otherwise procuring money or other property for charitable purposes; or any other person who solicits for reward money or other property for charity apart from:

 

* any charity or connected company;

* any officer or employee of a charity or connected company;

* any charity trustee;

* any public charitable collector - other than promoters;

* people who solicit funds on TV or radio; or

* any commercial participator.

 

In addition, the definition of professional fundraiser does not apply if the fundraiser receives £500 or less by way of remuneration in connection with a particular campaign or £5 per day or £500 or less per year where there is no specific venture.

 

A commercial participator is any person who carries on a business for gain, and which is not for fundraising, but who in the course of that business engages in any promotional venture (ie any advertising or sales campaign or any other venture undertaken for promotional purposes) in the course of which it is represented that contributions are to be given to or applied for the benefit of a charity.

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Oh my. Can we not forget the technicalities and let the reviewers make an informed, common-sense decision, instead of descending into a bottomless pit of more and more blurb?

 

The issue - I believe - is whether reviewers should be allowed discretion or not. Again, the above post and references to monetary values etc is esoteric... common sense would account for all eventualities.

 

It certainly worked in the past :D

Edited by PopUpPirate
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It has been said that the word "solicitation" is not appropriate, so I chose another word. Feel free to give me a better way to phrase what these sites do and I might use it. I am not against charities and give money and time to some, but I don't feel the need to advertise that in the forums.

 

I must say when I was told I was soliciting (the UK meaning) my calendars I was horrified :D ........OMG I thought I am a married woman with kids I dont do soliciting :D

 

I must admit the word begging is unpleasant, some one "might" ask for a donation for charity but more than likely (like my own calendar) they would advertise they are making/doing something and say they are being sold/sponsored to do this and a donation to charity would be welcomed.

 

I do not ask people for money and I definitely dont beg people for money, I say I am doing this and the money is going towards this and if you would like one please contact me. :D

 

Do you have anything for nettle rash :D:D

 

Mandy :D

 

Although...looks like at least some people in the UK use the same definition that Groundspeak is applying here:

 

Charity Commission for England and Wales

 

They use the "S" word quite a bit.

 

A professional fundraiser is any person (apart from the charitable institution or a company connected with such an institution) who carries on a fundraising business for gain which is wholly or primarily engaged in soliciting or otherwise procuring money or other property for charitable purposes; or any other person who solicits for reward money or other property for charity apart from:

 

* any charity or connected company;

* any officer or employee of a charity or connected company;

* any charity trustee;

* any public charitable collector - other than promoters;

* people who solicit funds on TV or radio; or

* any commercial participator.

 

In addition, the definition of professional fundraiser does not apply if the fundraiser receives £500 or less by way of remuneration in connection with a particular campaign or £5 per day or £500 or less per year where there is no specific venture.

 

A commercial participator is any person who carries on a business for gain, and which is not for fundraising, but who in the course of that business engages in any promotional venture (ie any advertising or sales campaign or any other venture undertaken for promotional purposes) in the course of which it is represented that contributions are to be given to or applied for the benefit of a charity.

 

Where did that come from? :D

 

mtn-man asked a question about a nicer word to use than "begging" and I gave a reply, there was definitely no need for all that blarb, we were not even discussing raising money :D

 

Mandy :D

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Well I have just read through both of the threads that kicked all of this off, and for the life of me I cannot find anywhere were anyone has solicited/begged/asked/etc for anything that could in anyway be regarded as charitable donations.

 

What I have seen is a group of cachers discussing how to get fit for a significant challenge, light hearted banter about getting very muddy and taking cold showers :D and organising a Geocaching event :D.

 

Could someone please point out the bits I missed?

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I had three emails explaining to me in detail why my "doggie" thread was closed, and as I understood what I had done wrong I have never once questioned the closure, but even in that thread I never asked/begged for money.

 

M :D

Perhaps you were unlucky enough to have one of the Groundspeak friendly charity google ads on your thread. It appears that they are happy making money off charity link clicks as they have not chosen to prevent the showing of that category of links. :D

 

charitydx7.jpg

 

Edited - I seriously need to learn to spell.

Edited by studlyone
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To some, killing of animals for ritualistic sacrifice is a worthy charity. To some, working for the enslavement of humans against their will is a worthy charity. To some, raising money to buy bombs for terroristic attacks on US and UK cities is a worthy charity.

 

It appears that they are happy making money off charity link clicks as they have not chosen to prevent the showing of that category of links.

 

The way GoogleAds picks up on the content of a page and tries to place relevent ads I'm just waiting for the ads to appear relating to mtn-man's post :D

 

P

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Well I have just read through both of the threads that kicked all of this off, and for the life of me I cannot find anywhere were anyone has solicited/begged/asked/etc for anything that could in anyway be regarded as charitable donations.

 

What I have seen is a group of cachers discussing how to get fit for a significant challenge, light hearted banter about getting very muddy and taking cold showers :D and organising a Geocaching event :D.

 

Could someone please point out the bits I missed?

Toward the top of this page I posted:

The site is very up front about the fact that this is a charity endeavor. Forum participants in one topic even indicate that it is a charity event here and that you collect money and bring it to the charity event here. In the first post in the other closed topic, the poster also states that it is a "charity based event" and boasted about how much money was raised last year for charity.

The first post I linked to said: "Having just re-checked the Commando Challenge website I can confirm that its aim is to 1. raise money for charity and 2. have fun getting muddy - my précis not theirs." ("précis" means a precise summary)

 

The second post I linked to said: "Aaaaaah no..... you collect the money before you do the Challenge - you have to hand it in when you register."

 

The third post I linked to said: "In glorious Devon there is a thing called a commando challenge which is a charity based event held over the week of the 11.10.08 and 12.10.08. Everyone can join in and last year we had a geocaching team that raised over £500 for charity."

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Neither of the threads were actually about fundraising at all..!!!

Ironically, the second quote above is from you giving direction to someone on how to properly collect donation funds for the challenge.

 

"Aaaaaah no..... you collect the money before you do the Challenge - you have to hand it in when you register."

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To some, an air ambulance service is a worthy charity

 

As this is a comment directly due to comments I made elsewhere, maybe you'd like to quote me in full. As the reference to the Air Ambulance, was to not being allowed to be mentioned as a thank you by any unfortunate UK cacher having to use their services and the inability to link to their web site as they are a Charity and as such mention about Donations on their websites which might generate a couple of donations from UK Cachers. No Charity Solicitations but as it's a charity they can't mention it.

 

Please do not use what I post else where in your arguments against the UK Caching Community. Oh and I did mention a UK cacher who had to use the services of another UK Charity which again can't be mentioned now for the same reason.

 

Yours and Groundspeaks view of the Commando thread is at opposite ends of the opinions on it from those of the UK Community. And to be honest neither side is going to agree that the other side is right.

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To some, an air ambulance service is a worthy charity. To some, killing of animals for ritualistic sacrifice is a worthy charity. To some, working for the enslavement of humans against their will is a worthy charity. To some, raising money to buy bombs for terroristic attacks on US and UK cities is a worthy charity.

With the exception of the first I doubt that any of those would be a charity under UK law. The last would be illegal under anti-terrorism law. A charity must be defined for a particular purpose and survive a public benefit test. See Charities Act 2006. In return a charity gets certain taxation and other benefits.

 

Is this perhaps why there's a misunderstanding? Are charities not so regulated in the USA?

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And not once has anyone

solicited/begged/asked/etc for anything that could in anyway be regarded as charitable donations

We're just going around in circles here :D so please don't bother to respond as you do not seem able to respond to the questions asked.

Time for bed said Zebedee :D

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transitive verb

1 a: to make petition to : entreat b: to approach with a request or plea <solicited Congress for funding>

2: to urge (as one's cause) strongly

3 a: to entice or lure especially into evil b: to proposition (someone) especially as or in the character of a prostitute

4: to try to obtain by usually urgent requests or pleas <solicited donations>

 

intransitive verb

1: to make solicitation : importune

2: of a prostitute : to offer to have sexual relations with someone for money

 

I think what John (Phillimore Clan) and myself are both trying to say is (in Mandy simple terms) that yes the Commando thread and yes my calendar threads do mention charities and do hope to raise money for them but we do not push any of the things mentioned above in bold, so how can we be soliciting, as the above say you have to do those to solicit.

 

Simply put we do not ask for any money, and to solicit you have to ask/request/urge or plead for money.

 

M :D

Edited by Us 4 and Jess
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Good morning.

 

All things being equal, the GAGB forum will be up again later today may be the evening though.

 

It will have a new home and software but the last back up was pretty recent so there should not be too many postings lost.

 

Cheers

 

Tony

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To some, an air ambulance service is a worthy charity

 

As this is a comment directly due to comments I made elsewhere, maybe you'd like to quote me in full. As the reference to the Air Ambulance, was to not being allowed to be mentioned as a thank you by any unfortunate UK cacher having to use their services and the inability to link to their web site as they are a Charity and as such mention about Donations on their websites which might generate a couple of donations from UK Cachers. No Charity Solicitations but as it's a charity they can't mention it.

 

Please do not use what I post else where in your arguments against the UK Caching Community. Oh and I did mention a UK cacher who had to use the services of another UK Charity which again can't be mentioned now for the same reason.

 

Yours and Groundspeaks view of the Commando thread is at opposite ends of the opinions on it from those of the UK Community. And to be honest neither side is going to agree that the other side is right.

Actually, it wasn't at all. I have no idea what post you are talking about. It is in reference to the fact that the Commando Challenge has two charities it is raising money for this year, one being "Devon Air Ambulance". Sorry if you were offended, but clearly that was not the intent.

 

Alan White, again your thinking is local and not global. While my examples are extreme, you do have to remember that there are caches in the Middle East. Say there are cachers that are part of a group of what we consider extreme terrorist, but what they would consider part of their heritage. They could argue that their charity is also a valid one and could cry foul just as some UK cachers have. Your link is to a UK link and is valid in one of 250 + total countries. My point is that by not allowing charity topics or caches in any case, you don't even have to consider a UK site for clarification, a US site or any other site that names and says what is an acceptable charity and what isn't. You have to stop thinking UK centric and focus on the fact that geocaching is a world wide game.

Edited by mtn-man
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Neither of the threads were actually about fundraising at all..!!!

Ironically, the second quote above is from you giving direction to someone on how to properly collect donation funds for the challenge.

 

"Aaaaaah no..... you collect the money before you do the Challenge - you have to hand it in when you register."

I was not giving anybody direction on how to collect anything - I was telling them when to collect and hand in any money they had raised!

Odd that you should quote that post to demonstrate soliciting........neither I nor the poster I was responding too were asking for money from anybody in this or any other forum, or suggesting that anybody reading that thread contribute any money.....

Edited by keehotee
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I think what John (Phillimore Clan) and myself are both trying to say is (in Mandy simple terms) that yes the Commando thread and yes my calendar threads do mention charities and do hope to raise money for them but we do not push any of the things mentioned above in bold, so how can we be soliciting, as the above say you have to do those to solicit.

I really do understand that. Still, the "intentional or unintentional" parts of the guidelines prohibit it since it is hard to qualify.

 

PopUpPirate, as I have said, the pub issue shows that asking for permission for an exception might garner approval. All they have to do is just communicate these issues to Groundspeak, such as in the case of the RR guideline that does not apply to the UK. All Groundspeak asks is that they are made aware of things as the reviewers deem such things need to be applied and not act on their own. That seems to me to be a reasonable request.

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I was not giving anybody direction on how to collect anything - I was telling them when to collect and hand in any money they had raised!

Neither belong in this forum. That's the whole point. If the topic of the charity event was never posted, you would not have to tell anyone how or when or where to deal with the contribution they were making to the charity. This type of hair-splitting is exactly why no charity topics are allowed. I for one hope this continues to be the policy to avoid future hair-splitting of this nature.

Edited by mtn-man
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In all honesty people I think we're fighting a lost cause. Although Groundspeak think it's OK to solicit opinions on; what guns to carry (not quite sure how that's directly relevant to caching, but never mind, TPTB obviously do), what GPS to buy, what stores to buy tupperware in, and what software is or isn't worth paying for - the only replies we have had from Groundspeak or their (unpaid) representatives have made it quite clear that even mentioning charity is enough to get a thread locked.

 

 

Last one out remember to shut the door........

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I was not giving anybody direction on how to collect anything - I was telling them when to collect and hand in any money they had raised!

Neither belong in this forum. That's the whole point. If the topic of the charity event was never posted, you would not have to tell anyone how or when or where to deal with the contribution they were making to the charity. This type of hair-splitting is exactly why no charity topics are allowed. I for one hope this continues to be the policy to avoid future hair-splitting of this nature.

 

This type of hair-splitting is exactly why no charity topics are allowed. I for one hope this continues to be the policy to avoid future hair-splitting of this nature.

 

I am sorry Greg but this is not true, I got permission for my two calendars this year, I dealt in a very friendly and respectable way with Groundspeak, I explained what I did and why and where the money raised would go, to be quite honest they were really nice folks to deal with, :D all Groundspeak is asking is if you would like to do something charity related then go to them first and ask their permission, and ask permission to post a charity related thread on this forum, and as I think you quoted earlier (I could be wrong I usually am :D ) I think that is a reasonable request, they might say no but then again they might say yes.

 

Quoted from my calendar thread:

 

I would urge if you would like to do something charity related that will benefit Geocaching drop them an email and ask permission, they aren't savage :D they are almost "normal" :D:D they can only say yes or no after all.

 

Mandy :D

Edited by Us 4 and Jess
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I'm sorry Mandy. I posted that, but it was out of exasperation I suppose. I walked away for a few minutes to play golf on the Wii to get a break from this. The "not how but when" argument is absurd to me. It is still dealing with the charity. I do appreciate those that do go about things the right way and ask for permission as you have. Perhaps more should follow your lead and example in asking for permission. Bravo.

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I think this has already been clarified but just in case.

 

Any future reviewers for the UK can access the agreements details on the GAGB website just like any other cacher just by logging on. They will not be able to get the personal details of the negotiator or the landowner and there isn't a reason I can think of that would mean they would need to.

We have always worked with the reviewers of the UK to assist in the reviewing process where we can.

 

It would be our pleasure if representatives from Groundspeak became members of the GAGB site.

 

And I would again like to offer to record the specifically negotiated guidelines for the UK on the GAGB site so that UK cachers can easily see them.

 

I would agree that this thread is going around in circles and again I would like to remind everyone that the fundamental request is that we are allowed to think locally about local problems and restrictions. I have said several times that there are plenty of reasons that one size will not fit all guidelines are not a good way forward.

 

I know the objections but they are not valid due to the no precedence rule. The objections would lose even more credibility if Groundspeak would only clearly agree to the amended guidelines and state so.

 

The world may well be a small place these days but it is still very diverse ( which means different).

 

I am trying to help things move on and settle down to aid the new reviewers as otherwise there is going to be this confusion and resentment left to fester. Do you really want a situation where every cache placed near a railway line is referred to Groundspeak for approval? Or are the reviewers allowed that local amendment but no other? And if that one is ok then why not others? I am not calling for a free for all just a reasoned discussion between informed people.

 

The charity issue is never going to be resolved so can I ask that the matter is dropped and I presume that we will not be seeing any similar adverts appearing.

In future post an event and then list any details on the GAGB site where it will cause no offence.

 

I'm sure you will be able to dissect bits of this Greg but please try and see the whole picture and realise that I am not trying to be a divisive force or a heretic. The GAGB are not rivals we are not trying to do anything other than assist in the smooth operations of Groundspeak within the UK. Working together locally we can strengthen the hobby for everyone in a global perspective.

 

I hope that this helps matters and that we can start to move forward to a sensible compromise.

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Alan White, again your thinking is local and not global.

Sorry, I don't see your point. We're discussing issues of local (to the UK) import, in a forum which is established for discussion of caching in the UK, in a topic set up to explain what the local caching organisation (GAGB) is doing to help resolve the current problem. This is very much about local, not global, issues.

 

The reason we have different laws in different countries is because different countries are err... different. Groundspeak needs to understand that what works in one country will not necessarily work, or even be necessary, in another. That, surely, is why there are local reviewers.

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Alan White, again your thinking is local and not global.

Sorry, I don't see your point. We're discussing issues of local (to the UK) import, in a forum which is established for discussion of caching in the UK, in a topic set up to explain what the local caching organisation (GAGB) is doing to help resolve the current problem. This is very much about local, not global, issues.

 

The reason we have different laws in different countries is because different countries are err... different. Groundspeak needs to understand that what works in one country will not necessarily work, or even be necessary, in another. That, surely, is why there are local reviewers.

 

indeed - surely it would be better all round to have locally 'enforced' guidelines... (oxymoron I know...) For example, dry stone wall caches are not allowed in the UK, but are allowed in many other countries (including the USA) but no one is suggesting they should be banned across the world merely because they are not approporiate in one country... I'm sure there are many many other examples as well - In some countries it may not be appropriate to have caches in the grounds of religious buildings, or close to railway tracks, due to local rules and customs. By the same token, UK charities are HIGHLY regulated, and I can't think of any charities that right-minded people would find offensive or contentious.

 

There is a very well known global bank advertising on UK TV, to the effect that it is clued up on local customs, and despite being a global corporation, local customs are important - how come Groundspeak can't do this as well?

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To some, an air ambulance service is a worthy charity

 

As this is a comment directly due to comments I made elsewhere, maybe you'd like to quote me in full. As the reference to the Air Ambulance, was to not being allowed to be mentioned as a thank you by any unfortunate UK cacher having to use their services and the inability to link to their web site as they are a Charity and as such mention about Donations on their websites which might generate a couple of donations from UK Cachers. No Charity Solicitations but as it's a charity they can't mention it.

 

Please do not use what I post else where in your arguments against the UK Caching Community. Oh and I did mention a UK cacher who had to use the services of another UK Charity which again can't be mentioned now for the same reason.

 

Yours and Groundspeaks view of the Commando thread is at opposite ends of the opinions on it from those of the UK Community. And to be honest neither side is going to agree that the other side is right.

 

Where on earth do people get the idea that they are representing the the views of the UK Caching Community, when they quite clearly fail to appreciate the views of sections of that community.

 

For me the commando challenge posts were irritating. We all have hobbies outside caching BUT a geocaching forum is not the place to chat about them, it's all the more irritating when these activities are fund raisers and you're left with the niggling suspicion that it is a ploy to advertise the event or solicit sponsorship.

 

Views differ within the UK. Will those who claim to represent UK views please make the effort to understand all the views within our own country before they start arguing about UK/US divisions? All they are doing is damaging our hobby based on the opinions of just one small clique within it!

 

If you must discuss non-caching things maybe we need a "UK chat" forum on here to remove clutter from the UK forum itself. It works on other forums and allows those who don't like the non relevant chit chat to view and partake in relevant discussions and easily filter out the non-relevant stuff if they wish to do so.

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STOP STOP STOP

 

This is a nightmare. We have well respected UK geocachers ( who should know better ) joining GC.COM Moderators (who should know better) dancing on the pointy bits of pinheads. This is truly truly destructive. Before anyone posts again - THINK, what is the effect on everyone else of what I am about to write!

 

STOP STOP STOP

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I'm truly sorry but I have just had enough of this discussion running round in circles because one side knows all the story but wont reveal it.

 

What has not been revealed about the closing of the Commando Challenge, is the following.

 

Keystone who is a Global Moderator with admin powers in every forum. Has admitted that he argued against just coming and using those powers to close the topic. Instead he argued about using the report to a Mod facility. When Peter replied to this report he gave genuine reasons as to why he believed it should remain open. On this refusal Keystone then discussed the issue with Groundspeak, which resulted in Miss Jenn stepping in and closing the topic. I personally believe the time has now come for Groundspeak to publicly explain why direct contact was not made by them to the UK Mods, with instructions to close the topic.Especially as discussions had already taken place directly with those concerned. So Groundspeak was fully aware of the feeling of the UK Volunteers.

 

And I would point out that what is happening will affect the whole of the UK, as there are more issue than just a discussion about a closed topic. The whole issue involves caches as well.

 

Deceangi

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And I would point out that what is happening will affect the whole of the UK, as there are more issue than just a discussion about a closed topic. The whole issue involves caches as well.

 

 

Could you help us by summarising the issues. Most of us seem to be stuck with information surmised from some rather heated forum posts :lol:

 

If we are looking purely at "solicitation" issues, such as pub names and charity mentions I'm sure we can survive and I'd suggest we let it rest awhile. I suspect that "normal service" will resume. If the issues are deeper we need to know the facts and not just the vague collection of insinuations that are flaoting around.

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I've just spent an hour trying to find out what happened originally.

 

I've had an email from another UK cacher who explained the basics. Thank you to that person for taking the time.

 

It looks like it's degenerated into a slanging match which appears to be (a minority in) the UK vs the Rest of the World.

 

All this will do is get the UK, in general, seen in a bad light.

 

Seems to me, from the small amount of posts I have read (having not been on the forum for a while, and don't have the time to plough my way through the entire forum searching out the relevant posts), that there's a few who think they can speak for the entire UK caching community.

 

Please don't speak on my behalf - I have a voice of my own, if I choose to use it.

Not to mention the rest of the UK cachers who never come on the forum, but are being represented by it.

 

As previously suggested, chill, and let those who can, and need to, sort it out without filling the forum up with a slanging match and witch hunt.

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I'm sure you will be able to dissect bits of this Greg but please try and see the whole picture and realise that I am not trying to be a divisive force or a heretic.

Na, good post. I wish all would look at the big picture like you do. purple_pineapple's comments about the dry stone walls is another good example of something that one country cannot do that others throughout the globe can (I saw that on the GAGB web site).

 

Thanks for your work and patience nobby.nobbs.

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By the same token, UK charities are HIGHLY regulated, and I can't think of any charities that right-minded people would find offensive or contentious.

 

There are all sorts of people around with widely differing views. I believe you wouldn't have to look far to find a charity that someone objects to! Assuming everyone (right-minded or otherwise) sees the world the same way is always dangerous.

 

Some contentious charities might include: Private Schools - why should Eton get a tax break? Health charities that provide abortion advice - not contentious to some? Health charities that offer contraception advice? What about churches, who get similar treatment to charities, if you are a strong humanist? What about the RSPCA - some animal rescue charities think they don't do a very good job at prosecuting offenders? What about Battersea Dogs Home - an organisation that puts huge numbers of dogs 'to sleep' each year. The Air Ambulances - some political minded folk are outraged that stuff like this isn't funded by the state as a necessary service. Charities that help asylum seekers - or are they economic migrants? Driving lessons and education for prisoners was in the news a while back. Some people think charities generally are appalling - encourages dependence instead of self-reliance.

 

I'm not making any statements about any of these things but some people would certainly object to each one of them. I think Groundspeak is right to restrict caches and forum discussions that have an agenda. This site is about geocaching, a fairly harmless bit of fun and it should stay that way.

 

Whether the forum topics at the heart of the matter are 'solicitation' or some other word, they are certainly about a charitable cause. Whether they were OK to leave running is a judgement call and the reviewers had their reasons for their decision. I don't have a problem with the threads but the way it appears the reviewers were summarily overruled seems rather harsh and I'm not suprised they felt they had to resign. :lol:

 

PS. You know a discussion has reached the (useless) argument stage when people start reaching for the dictionary! Arguing about exact definitions never achieves much I find; as KewFriend said: "dancing on the pointy bits of pinheads"

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