Jump to content

Geocaching Australia


Recommended Posts

I remember a lot of effort was put into a project to do exactly that, the last time an issue like this cropped up. It seems to have died a death though. I wonder if there is anyone here who knows anything about it?

 

Lisa

I remember it well, there was even a site created, http://geocaching.org.uk/ now dead. Not sure what or why though, but I would imagine it would have something to do with one or more of the following:

 

money

support

expertise

time

Link to comment

If you check out the Australia sub-forum you will find it has very little use. This is not because the Australians don't communicate, it is because they use there own forums. We of course already have our own at GAGB but how do we get it to be used almost exclusively?

 

I would have thought that was easy enough. We just all agree to discuss Geocaching on the GC Uk site.

 

I for one have just created an account.

Link to comment

If you check out the Australia sub-forum you will find it has very little use. This is not because the Australians don't communicate, it is because they use there own forums. We of course already have our own at GAGB but how do we get it to be used almost exclusively?

 

We don't post here - we post in the GAGB Forum? Simple...

Only works if everyone moves as per Australia.

How did they manage the break?

How do new Australian Geocachers know where to go?

Link to comment

Is it time for the UK to follow the Australian model?

Either in full or parts of it, what are your views?

Most definitely but, as has been said, this is not the place to discuss it. The last time this came up the majority of the discussion was on the GCUK forums, which don't seem to be around at the moment.

 

IIRC the Australian software is freely available. All that would be needed is the host, the expertise and err.. the money.

Link to comment

We don't post here - we post in the GAGB Forum? Simple...

Err.. no, because not all of us want to be members of the GAGB.

Well if there's to be a UK based Geocaching Listing site then there needs to be some sort of UK based forum/listings site/organisation. If that's the GAGB or some new body then that's open to discussion.

 

I was merely saying that the GAGB Forum already exists - anyway - I was just trying to start a discussion.

Link to comment

Is it time for the UK to follow the Australian model?

Either in full or parts of it, what are your views?

Most definitely but, as has been said, this is not the place to discuss it. The last time this came up the majority of the discussion was on the GCUK forums, which don't seem to be around at the moment.

 

IIRC the Australian software is freely available. All that would be needed is the host, the expertise and err.. the money.

But there is GAGB where it is currently being discussed at the moment.

Link to comment

Well if there's to be a UK based Geocaching Listing site then there needs to be some sort of UK based forum/listings site/organisation. If that's the GAGB or some new body then that's open to discussion.

Absolutely, but the GAGB commitee themselves said last time that they didn't want to be (more accurately, couldn't be, within the constitution) a listing site. Nor, for the same reason, did they want to be seen to be approving or recommending any particular listing site.

 

I was merely saying that the GAGB Forum already exists - anyway - I was just trying to start a discussion.

Sure, though there are other forums. The problem with the GAGB forums is that to post you have to be a member of the GAGB.

Link to comment

Well if there's to be a UK based Geocaching Listing site then there needs to be some sort of UK based forum/listings site/organisation. If that's the GAGB or some new body then that's open to discussion.

Absolutely, but the GAGB commitee themselves said last time that they didn't want to be (more accurately, couldn't be, within the constitution) a listing site. Nor, for the same reason, did they want to be seen to be approving or recommending any particular listing site.

 

I was merely saying that the GAGB Forum already exists - anyway - I was just trying to start a discussion.

Sure, though there are other forums. The problem with the GAGB forums is that to post you have to be a member of the GAGB.

 

To post on most forums you have to be a member.

 

GAGB membership is open to all cachers, its not a listing site, it is there to help with landowner negotiations.

 

Most folk just join to use the off topic forum :(

Link to comment

If we were to break away from GS and setup our own UK site and I am sure it would work well, I can't see how GS would be interested in sharing cache info with matey boy who goes out there on business trips two or three times a year with bugs and coins to deliver. Would we end up paying USA and UK?

 

Surely the sensible thing to do would be for GS to accept that wherever you go in the world, people have different cultures and customes. So, the right thing to do would be to have a UK GS team that could implement rules for the benefit of the UK, not be told to implement rules that only affect a US cacher? Where's the sense in that?

 

I dunno, I could be wrong? I think GS need to acomodate different cultures and customs, before telling us what we shall and shall not do. I think GS will probably like to work with us on this one to sort it out, because the alternative is a massive loss in revenue for J and the lackeys!

 

Happy caching!

Link to comment

I think you're right fraggle.. I'd just posted the following in the GAGB forum.. and seems appropriate here...

 

Something just crossed my mind... in a previous life, I worked for The Scout Association at National level..

 

Each Country ran it's own affairs, but still stuck to the same basic fundamental principles... and all belonged to the World Organisation of the Scout Movement based in Geneva.

 

Maybe Geocaching has reached a stage where larger Countries need to be given some autonomy in running their own affairs yet still belonging within some International Geocaching Framework.

 

Just a thought.

 

Otherwise I think larger Countries will break away and set up their own sites... and thast going to be a shame.

Link to comment

Something else that may have implications on UK cache placement is rules regarding cache placement on/near bridges, railways etc. These have not been an issue as yet but with the tightening of the interpretation of the rules it may be that caches in such places will be baned!

Link to comment

I think you're right fraggle.. I'd just posted the following in the GAGB forum.. and seems appropriate here...

 

Something just crossed my mind... in a previous life, I worked for The Scout Association at National level..

 

Each Country ran it's own affairs, but still stuck to the same basic fundamental principles... and all belonged to the World Organisation of the Scout Movement based in Geneva.

 

Maybe Geocaching has reached a stage where larger Countries need to be given some autonomy in running their own affairs yet still belonging within some International Geocaching Framework.

 

Just a thought.

 

Otherwise I think larger Countries will break away and set up their own sites... and thast going to be a shame.

The problem with this is that Groundspeak are a commercial concern, with the objective of making money and I cannot see them allowing this unless their services are paid for.

The Scout Association is a charity, so this is therefore not a problem.

 

Edit:

Oops am I allowed to mention The Scout Association?

Could this mean the demise of another thread?

Edited by Phillimore Clan
Link to comment

The problem with this is that Groundspeak are a commercial concern, with the objective of making money and I cannot see them allowing this unless their services are paid for.

The Scout Association is a charity, so this is therefore not a problem.

 

Edit:

Oops am I allowed to mention The Scout Association?

Could this mean the demise of another thread?

 

 

I think that managing to get both of the C words in one posting will get you banned :)

Link to comment

Who in the UK decides whether to follow the Aussie model or go back to GS to try to find some common ground through negotiation?

Is there some kind of UK umbrella committee?

 

If we went the Aussie route & managed our own forum, could we persuade the 2 reviewers back?

And if we went the Aussie route would it have to be through GAGB? It's not exactly buzzing. There're plenty of vibrant Regional forums around with some good skills behind them. Could one of those be expanded to the national level?

 

IMHO this situation presents us with an opportunity rather than a problem. I'm interested to know how the UK best capitalise on it. :)

Link to comment

To post on most forums you have to be a member.

They require you to give basic details - often as little as a working email address - but most forums don't require you to also be a member of the club which is hosting the forum.

 

I don't know about you, but when I registered with the GAGB forum many years ago it wasn't very taxing. I don't think I needed to pledge an allegiance to the GAGB, donate a pint of blood, or have a GAGB tattoo for example :)

Link to comment

I think you're right fraggle.. I'd just posted the following in the GAGB forum.. and seems appropriate here...

 

Something just crossed my mind... in a previous life, I worked for The Scout Association at National level..

 

Each Country ran it's own affairs, but still stuck to the same basic fundamental principles... and all belonged to the World Organisation of the Scout Movement based in Geneva.

 

Maybe Geocaching has reached a stage where larger Countries need to be given some autonomy in running their own affairs yet still belonging within some International Geocaching Framework.

 

Just a thought.

 

Otherwise I think larger Countries will break away and set up their own sites... and thast going to be a shame.

 

I think Groundspeak have a lot to learn from the scouts. Nail on Head birdman!

Link to comment

The problem with this is that Groundspeak are a commercial concern, with the objective of making money and I cannot see them allowing this unless their services are paid for.

The Scout Association is a charity, so this is therefore not a problem.

 

Edit:

Oops am I allowed to mention The Scout Association?

Could this mean the demise of another thread?

 

 

I think that managing to get both of the C words in one posting will get you banned :)

 

There's your answer, Groundspeak should be a charity! Geohunting was never meant to be a business right? Always meant to be FREEE, in every aspect!

Link to comment

Who in the UK decides whether to follow the Aussie model

We do :)

 

Is there some kind of UK umbrella committee?

Unfortunately not. The closest we have is GAGB.

 

If we went the Aussie route & managed our own forum, could we persuade the 2 reviewers back?

That's for Peter and Dave, but I have no doubt that the great mutual respect which exists between them and the UK caching community - along with a few beers - would ensure that they'd give it consideration :)

 

And if we went the Aussie route would it have to be through GAGB?

Unless GAGB have changed their minds, GAGB would definitely not be the UK listing site.

 

IMHO this situation presents us with an opportunity rather than a problem.

I agree. The same situation occurred a few years back and there was much discussion about a UK listing then. Sadly nothing came of it. Perhaps this latest issue will provide the necessary impetus.

Link to comment

I don't know about you, but when I registered with the GAGB forum many years ago it wasn't very taxing. I don't think I needed to pledge an allegiance to the GAGB

I'm prepared to be corrected, but as you cannot post to the GAGB forums without being a member of GAGB, and you cannot be a member of GAGB without agreeing to their constitution, then you do indeed need to "pledge an allegiance to the GAGB".

 

This is fine if you agree with the aims of GAGB. If you don't then you can't post to their forums. And that's also fine, but suggesting that we have a discussion about the future of UK caching in a place which excludes cachers who don't agree with GAGB is not going to further the debate.

Link to comment

I don't know about you, but when I registered with the GAGB forum many years ago it wasn't very taxing. I don't think I needed to pledge an allegiance to the GAGB

I'm prepared to be corrected, but as you cannot post to the GAGB forums without being a member of GAGB, and you cannot be a member of GAGB without agreeing to their constitution, then you do indeed need to "pledge an allegiance to the GAGB".

 

This is fine if you agree with the aims of GAGB. If you don't then you can't post to their forums. And that's also fine, but suggesting that we have a discussion about the future of UK caching in a place which excludes cachers who don't agree with GAGB is not going to further the debate.

 

No Idea what your on about No pledge

 

may I take it that you may now wish to retract your comments.

 

(Personal message not in my GAGB guise)

Edited by mongoose39uk
Link to comment

IMHO this situation presents us with an opportunity rather than a problem. I'm interested to know how the UK best capitalise on it. :)

 

The thing is though is that whilst we're chatty and vocal and opinated and most of the time we just chat drivel in these forums :) we ARE NOT the geocaching community. We forget that. I don't know how many thousands of cachers there are in the UK, but any more than 100 people who regularly contribute to the forums? I think not.

 

Our opinions do NOT reflect the geocaching community as a whole and to suggest any form of break away etc without the UK geocaching community at large being involved just smacks of the minority being strict and overbearing and enforcing the rules on the majority.... and where has that happened very very recently? (Nobody mention Zimbabwe, that's a really sad state affairs and we need to keep this geocaching related) :P

Link to comment

we ARE NOT the geocaching community.

Of course we are. Yes, not every UK cacher posts to or frequents this forum (largely because of the sort of problems that provoked this discussion) but that does not mean those who do are not the community.

 

to suggest any form of break away etc without the UK geocaching community at large being involved just smacks of the minority being strict and overbearing and enforcing the rules on the majority

So what do you suggest? That we contact every UK cacher and ask them what they think? Sorry, that isn't the way to make progress.

 

In any case, no one has suggested that there be a "break away". The suggestion is that we have a UK listing site along the lines of Australia and other countries. It would, as now, be up to cache owners to decide whether to list their caches on GC.com, the UK listing site, Navicache, Terracaching, or a combination of them.

Link to comment

Exactly, you join a forum, nothing more, no pledge.

And joining the forum makes you a member of GAGB.

 

I think we're going round in circles and detracting from the much more important points which we should be discussing so, unless GAGB decides to become the UK listing site, that's all I have to say.

Link to comment

we ARE NOT the geocaching community.

Of course we are. Yes, not every UK cacher posts to or frequents this forum (largely because of the sort of problems that provoked this discussion) but that does not mean those who do are not the community.

er - but it certainly does not make us the community. We're just a visible part. A noisy vocal visible part - but a very small part of the bigger picture.

 

to suggest any form of break away etc without the UK geocaching community at large being involved just smacks of the minority being strict and overbearing and enforcing the rules on the majority

So what do you suggest? That we contact every UK cacher and ask them what they think? Sorry, that isn't the way to make progress.

 

I have to admit Alan that I don't have an answer or a suggestion to your question. But I disagree with you. I recognise the impracticability of contacting everyone. And just like politics, I'd bet most people would not be bothered at all. They just want to have a walk, in the countryside, and find a plastic box. Whether that's on geocaching.com, gc.com, or ilikeammoboxes.co.uk doesn't matter. The vast majority of people are the silent majority (just like with British politics) and will just want to go out and have fun and not get involved with the dirty politics.

 

I note that geocaching.com does have new caches still being published in Australia so I question the hard work that people have had to put in. All Garmin kit points you to geocaching.com. Articles in walking magazines push people to geocaching.com. I'm not saying it would be impossible, but it will be one helluva an uphill battle to get it an alternative site up and running!

 

I've had a look at navicache. 3 caches within 50 miles. What a great alternative.

 

Hope I got the quote thing right! :)

Link to comment

er - but it certainly does not make us the community. We're just a visible part. A noisy vocal visible part - but a very small part of the bigger picture.

Sure, but that's how life is. Some lead, everyone else follows.

 

I note that geocaching.com does have new caches still being published in Australia

The last time I looked - not extensively admittedly - many Australian caches were listed on both sites. It's up to the cache owner where to list their cache. Many UK caches are listed on more than one site.

 

All Garmin kit points you to geocaching.com. Articles in walking magazines push people to geocaching.com.

Yes, Groundspeak have been very successful commercially. They have become by far the dominant player in the cache listing market, so much so that they are able to determine how the hobby itself - rather than just the cache listings - progresses. Is that good?

 

I'm not saying it would be impossible, but it will be one helluva an uphill battle to get it an alternative site up and running!

No-one should underestimate the commitment and resource necessary to start a listing site. When this was last discussed a few years ago I was one of the most vociferous opponents of it, not because I disagreed with the suggestion but because it was obvious from the discussions that those suggesting it had entirely underestimated the work and money involved and as a result the project would have fallen flat on its face. That would have made the UK caching community look very foolish and would have given Groundspeak even more power.

 

I've had a look at navicache. 3 caches within 50 miles. What a great alternative.

NaviCache pre-dates my involvement in caching (Sep 03) so I'm not sure why Groundspeak took off and NaviCache didn't. Perhaps some of the "older" cachers could comment, as there may be lessons to be learnt. It's true that the Navicache UI is a little quirky, but one often gets used to these things. And there are caches local to me listed on NaviCache as well as GC.com.

 

I have no doubt that the UK caching community could, if it wanted, build, maintain and manage a UK listing site run not-for-profit for the benefit of the community rather than as a commercial venture. This was the proposition a few years ago and it gained widespread (though perhaps not by your definition) support then. But it has to be built first. It would then become a GC.com or a NaviCache :)

Link to comment

This is (an edited) version of a note I just posted on the GAGB forum. I'm reposting it here for the benefit of those who don't visit there and to try and gauge a wider opinion.

 

As the person who finds himself swept up in the middle of this storm (in a teacup?!) permit me to add my two penn'orth. people have commented about how Groundspeak operates and I have sympathy with some of the criticisms. With this talk about adopting a local database, possibly based on the Aussie model I would point out the quality of the site itself and the value of its database. With the best will in the world I can't see anyone coming up with anything comparable locally, at least not in the near future.

 

My personal preference would be to concentrate our efforts to trying to change what we see is wrong with the way Groundspeak operates. I have seen mention of the worldwide scouting organisation with an overarching set of general principles but with regional bodies responsible for developing and operating locally relevant guidelines. To my mind this is what Groundspeak ought to be working towards and if it had shown a willingness to consider this sort of thing I might never have left my volunteer position. As Lactodorum I felt unable to voice such thoughts but as a regular geocacher now I hope now I may be permitted to offer what is intended to be constructive criticism.

 

Although there are some very insular and self important people around I believe that given persistence and logic those who matter can be persuaded to change. I personally believe this would be of great benefit to the development of geocaching around the world. Of course it would be a great benefit to the business of Groundspeak corporation too. For all practical purposes our hobby depends upon them being successful in the long term so it's to everyone's mutual benefit to create an acceptable model.

 

This needs to be done in a cool and calm way and without resorting to some of the xenophobic insults that I've seen from time to time.

 

We'll see.

Link to comment

My personal preference would be to concentrate our efforts to trying to change what we see is wrong with the way Groundspeak operates. I have seen mention of the worldwide scouting organisation with an overarching set of general principles but with regional bodies responsible for developing and operating locally relevant guidelines. To my mind this is what Groundspeak ought to be working towards and if it had shown a willingness to consider this sort of thing I might never have left my volunteer position. As Lactodorum I felt unable to voice such thoughts but as a regular geocacher now I hope now I may be permitted to offer what is intended to be constructive criticism.

 

There are a lot of good things for which we gain benefit from Groundspeak. Yes we pay a fee but its not a huge amount.

For this reason, trying to iron out differences with Groundspeak should be the priority before considering a breakaway.

Geocaching as a pastime has grown at a phenomenol rate and sometimes organisations can't adapt to the speed of growth. It feels like a case in point here.

So Groundspeak perhaps need to consider whether their controlled approach is still appropriate or needs to be adapted.

UK need to discuss their needs with them to find some common ground.

 

As a relative caching newcomer, the question I still want to know is, who speaks on behalf of the UK?

GAGB? Deceangi? Whoever comes forward?

Or is this an opportunity for the UK to also re-look at the way its organised?

Its all very well airing views in the forum but is anyone from the UK going to act on them in a coordinated way?

 

Sorry it sounds a bit business like, but its the language a commercial organisation like Groundspeak will recognise.

Link to comment

My personal preference would be to concentrate our efforts to trying to change what we see is wrong with the way Groundspeak operates. I have seen mention of the worldwide scouting organisation with an overarching set of general principles but with regional bodies responsible for developing and operating locally relevant guidelines. To my mind this is what Groundspeak ought to be working towards and if it had shown a willingness to consider this sort of thing I might never have left my volunteer position. As Lactodorum I felt unable to voice such thoughts but as a regular geocacher now I hope now I may be permitted to offer what is intended to be constructive criticism.

But Peter, have you not been doing that from the inside for years with varying degrees of success? You know better than the general caching community how difficult that has been. The rest of us have seen how Groundspeak have presented themselves in their public announcements, not once but many many times. A competitive company which treated its customers with such disdain would not last very long. If a company can't be persuaded to change by those most closely working within it then I don't think it likely that it can be so persuaded from outside. History shows that Groundspeak simply does not listen to the views of its customers.

 

However, I do agree that we should not see discussions with Groundspeak and setting up a UK listing site as being mutually exclusive. A big reason why it would be difficult to set up a UK listing site now is because of the strength of Groundspeak's database, which is about three times as large (with UK data) as it was when we last discussed our own site. If you - and I see on GAGB that DaveP agrees - thinks there's value in further discussions with Groundspeak then of course that should happen. But it should not be our only action: we should also encourage a UK listing site. That way we provide an alternative. Many other countries have done that: why not the UK?

Link to comment

I think this would be an appropriate time for people who do have the knowledge and ability to contribute to a listings site to make themselves known. The issue as far as I see it is the time it will take to maintain such a site and the cost involved. It'll be a full time job for someone and may even require a dedicated server on which to run the database (which costs money).

 

Personally I don't want to see a separate listings site. I would like to see the UK caching community given greater autonomy by Groundspeak to help develop the sport in ways more appropriate to our country. I mean, how easy would it be to include OS Trig Points as benchmarks, for example?

However, if our concerns are not being listened to and our needs are not being met then I for one am prepared for the long march.

 

Yours,

Che Muttoneer.

Link to comment

Having met up with a visiting Aussie cacher last night, I had the "Australian model" in mind. He said that they don't tend to use the Groundspeak forums (and that's it).

The .au site appears to be a front-end to geocaching.com and I have no idea what problems that would solve for the UK. Although it looks very nice!

 

If anyone is considering a UK Listings independent from geocaching.com, my feeling is that it's dead in the water already. I also have a feeling (which may well not be backed up with evidence, although I've checked a few profiles), that the ones who are calling for a "breakaway" listings site for the UK tend to be those that cache in the UK all the time.

 

For those of us that are just as likely to seek caches in Europe and/or America, and for those that have already logged a fair number of UK caches, having the UK split over two sites would be a right royal PITA. You only have to think about it for a minute to realise how impractical it would be, even with lots of resources. And I suspect that there would be only a few thousand pounds available to develop it - which wouldn't even get it off the ground.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...