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What is and what is not a commercial cache?


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I have recently seen a cache where the cache setter (who found a grand total of three caches before setting) has the same caching name as their own business and their profile page links straight to said business.

 

Is that commercial or coincidence?

 

Will we soon find Tesco setting up and account, setting a cache and then linking directly to their home shopping page? :(

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Cacher nicknames can be a business. They can have links to their business on their profile pages. You just cannot do any thing of that sort on the cache page itself. There are two good discussions regarding commercial content on cache pages here and here. That forums is the appropriate area for the discussion.

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I have recently seen a cache where the cache setter (who found a grand total of three caches before setting) has the same caching name as their own business and their profile page links straight to said business.

 

Is that commercial or coincidence?

 

 

We don't usually look at cachers homepages so the info on it would not have come to our notice ,

but it has now :(

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Cacher nicknames can be a business. They can have links to their business on their profile pages. You just cannot do any thing of that sort on the cache page itself. There are two good discussions regarding commercial content on cache pages here and here. That forums is the appropriate area for the discussion.

Dare I ask, is this the future?

If post on here are not directly related to UK Geocaching then we will be sent packing to the main forums :( .

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Cacher nicknames can be a business. They can have links to their business on their profile pages. You just cannot do any thing of that sort on the cache page itself. There are two good discussions regarding commercial content on cache pages here and here. That forums is the appropriate area for the discussion.

Dare I ask, is this the future?

If post on here are not directly related to UK Geocaching then we will be sent packing to the main forums :( .

 

looks like it

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Please don't think I'm criticising, or whatever, I'm not, this is a GENUINE question...

 

As a regular event organiser, I need to know the answer to this:

 

Cachers can have links to their businesses on their account pages, and indeed they could have the name TESCO (or similar) but we can't state which pub we want to have an event in cos it's "advertising that pub"????????

 

Am I right?

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Please don't think I'm criticising, or whatever, I'm not, this is a GENUINE question...

 

As a regular event organiser, I need to know the answer to this:

 

Cachers can have links to their businesses on their account pages, and indeed they could have the name TESCO (or similar) but we can't state which pub we want to have an event in cos it's "advertising that pub"????????

 

Am I right?

 

From the posts I've been reading in the other part of the forum, it would appear the answer is yes.

 

One post I've seen from a moderator points out that as Geocachers, all we should need to work from are the coords and the time and date.

 

So this would be breaking the stricter guidelines (assuming you don't ask for prior permission)

"We are holding an event on May 1st at the Nags Head, here is a link to their website where you can view the menu" (2 infringments)

 

This would be fine (as far as I can see)

"We are holding an event at the pub found at N53 53.354 W002 34.234, the pub serves food and Children are welcome. For more info on the location, either do a bit of research on Google, or contact me"

 

It would seem it is also acceptable to omit any commercial info on the cachepage, but link to your own private website which contains more details.

 

Put simply, a cache page which could be seen as an advert or endorsement for a commercial company is out. So if the cache series that is hidden near a well known supermarket chain actually mentioned the name of the company, that would be seen as an advert or endorsement of that supermarket.

 

Linking to a website that sells goods is also out, but I'm not so clear on where Groundspeak sits on linkng to sites that use Banner ads.

Many local Geocaching community sites, such as my own, use banner ads to help pay for the hosting costs, and as such aren't really a for-profit venture.

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Cacher nicknames can be a business. They can have links to their business on their profile pages. You just cannot do any thing of that sort on the cache page itself. There are two good discussions regarding commercial content on cache pages here and here. That forums is the appropriate area for the discussion.

Dare I ask, is this the future?

If post on here are not directly related to UK Geocaching then we will be sent packing to the main forums :( .

I did answer the question, but in case anyone wanted more of the detailed history behind that answer, it is best to read those topics. When there are active topics that answer the question you ask, I think linking you to those discussions seems to make sense. It isn't that you cannot discuss it here in this sub-forum, it is that it is already being discussed at this time in another part of the same forum in a different, more applicable sub-forum.

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Cacher nicknames can be a business. They can have links to their business on their profile pages. You just cannot do any thing of that sort on the cache page itself. There are two good discussions regarding commercial content on cache pages here and here. That forums is the appropriate area for the discussion.

Dare I ask, is this the future?

If post on here are not directly related to UK Geocaching then we will be sent packing to the main forums :( .

I did answer the question, but in case anyone wanted more of the detailed history behind that answer, it is best to read those topics. When there are active topics that answer the question you ask, I think linking you to those discussions seems to make sense. It isn't that you cannot discuss it here in this sub-forum, it is that it is already being discussed at this time in another part of the same forum in a different, more applicable sub-forum.

 

But with all due respect... I simply do not have time to read every forum on here. I never veer out of the UK forum, cos I know that people I know, and who know me, can generally answer my questions. Failing that, a friendly reviewer will answer.

 

We're not being awkward, it's simply that we have busy lives, and just don't have the time to check all forums.... sorry!

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I'm completely confused too. I was about to sort out an event for end June but am seriously put off now.

 

mtn-man - could you perhaps provide links to the appropriate threads to save me searching? I tend to only visit the UK threads, so if I'm missing something elsewhere it would help if I knew where to look.

 

Many thanks in advance.

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Cacher nicknames can be a business. They can have links to their business on their profile pages. You just cannot do any thing of that sort on the cache page itself. There are two good discussions regarding commercial content on cache pages here and here. That forums is the appropriate area for the discussion.

Dare I ask, is this the future?

If post on here are not directly related to UK Geocaching then we will be sent packing to the main forums :( .

I did answer the question, but in case anyone wanted more of the detailed history behind that answer, it is best to read those topics. When there are active topics that answer the question you ask, I think linking you to those discussions seems to make sense. It isn't that you cannot discuss it here in this sub-forum, it is that it is already being discussed at this time in another part of the same forum in a different, more applicable sub-forum.

Thank you for the clarification and reassurance, in these uncertain & unsettled time I jumped to the conclusion that

That forums is the appropriate area for the discussion.
was suggesting that this discussion should be moved to the appropriate place.
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For the camping events.... are we allowed to link to the campsite website?

You need to ask Groundspeak by emailing the contact address with the information you want to add to the cache page.

 

Keep in mind that this is a GPS based game. The GPS will get you to within 10 meters (30 feet) of a target for the most part, many times closer for parking lots. I've been co-hosting monthly events for years now (including the very first geocaching event) and we have always used coordinates. Any road directions are encrypted into the hint. Since we are geocaching, it is more fun to me to find the location using the GPS anyway. I was even late once after turning down a wrong road! :(

 

So this would be breaking the stricter guidelines (assuming you don't ask for prior permission)

"We are holding an event on May 1st at the Nags Head, here is a link to their website where you can view the menu" (2 infringments)

 

This would be fine (as far as I can see)

"We are holding an event at the pub found at N53 53.354 W002 34.234, the pub serves food and Children are welcome. For more info on the location, either do a bit of research on Google, or contact me"

 

It would seem it is also acceptable to omit any commercial info on the cachepage, but link to your own private website which contains more details.

Correct for the most part. Still, for the last paragraph, check with Groundspeak first.

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This is an absolutely barking mad state of affairs, upon looking at the cache rules page it appears that it isn't allowed to post the name of a pub or other place of meeting as it would be an indirect, non-intentional way of drumming up business for that said business and would be classified as a commercial cache - :(;)

 

Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services. If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial.

 

Some exceptions can be made. In these situations, permission can be given by Groundspeak. However, permission should be asked first before posting. If you are in doubt, ask first. If you do not have advance permission, your reviewer will refer you to Groundspeak.

It would probably be best to approach Groundspeak with a copy of the text that you plan to use for clearance before posting the cache page for an event as it looks like the reviewers would just refer you to Groundspeak anyway.

 

I know its absolutely barking mad as most event caches meet up somewhere that offers refreshments but according to the rules above it would be using the geocaching.com website to solicit customers.

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By the way, for now, I don't mind answering some of the questions here. Those two topics I linked to are somewhat long and confusing in spots. I don't mind helping out here.

 

I seriously doubt the mega events would be archived. Too important. I'll look at them. Read my post above and fill in some questions here. (I am at work, so be patient with me. :( )

 

Greg

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If we're not able to mention the name of a pub for an event listing then Groundspeak are missing the point of one of the differences between British culture and American culture. A pub, whilst having its drinks supplied by a large multi-national company, is not run by the large multi-national company. It run by the landlord. A man and / or a woman, known to everyone in the local area. Known by name. Perhaps a Dave and a Sue. Or a Danny and a Claire. We know them. We don't say we're going to N53 blah blah W3 blah blah, we say we're going to the Rose and Crown (if we go really often, we might even say we're just going to the Rose!). We say we're going to the Red Lion. We say we're going to The Ship.

 

Hell - we even give road directions by pubs! :(

 

This is why the forums and the caches need to have proper local moderation and lee-way provided for local customs and traditions. Pub names just being one of them but I am sure that there are many many more.

 

We have a lot in common with the States. Same language, similar history. We have a lot in common. But 230 years as separate countries also brings about differences. And those need to be recognised.

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I seriously doubt the mega events would be archived. Too important. I'll look at them. Read my post above and fill in some questions here. (I am at work, so be patient with me. :( )

 

Greg

But others might be ;) ?

Would that not mean applying double standards?

This is absolutely nuts :)

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Just seems from reading the various threads and posts around the resignations of our two reviewers that Groundspeak just don’t care.

 

They are only paying lip service to the UK and there is no understanding of the UK, its ways or the caching community.

 

This usually happens as a business expands

 

A very sad day :(

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Blimey.... 1984!!!!

 

I have amended my cache page as necessary and emailed those people I know locally that don't use the forums so that they are aware.

 

For the camping events.... are we allowed to link to the campsite website?

Don't bother emailing me Hazel, I don't care! My camping event is setup and ready to run next weekend. The bull in thorn looks like an ace pub too, shame you can't make it for some camping. I see there's some harleys and triumphs making an appearance along with all the Jap technology. Should be a right old bash. The cat and fiddle looks ace too, I bet parking a car is gonna be tight at that one. IAm sure I put the coords somewhere, forgive me for mentioning the pubs name Doh!

 

I won't be making any ammendments to the event page because it's already been reviewed by the best we had!

 

Happy Caching

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I know its absolutely barking mad as most event caches meet up somewhere that offers refreshments but according to the rules above it would be using the geocaching.com website to solicit customers.

Events are the exception there. You can post the coordinates, meet up and have food and a drink and good old geo-chat.

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shame you can't make it for some camping.

I won't be making any ammendments to the event page because it's already been reviewed by the best we had!

 

Happy Caching

 

Ha ha ha..... No, I won't be camping cos I am a wuss.... but I WILL be coming!!!

 

Will you be coming to the coords, or will you be coming to the PUB? I ask only because I couldn't get a good fix for the BAR, so you will be OUTSIDE in the cold with no beer if you stick to the caching guidelines. I am thinking you're a rule breaker though, mines an ale and make it a pint, none of this quart business here!

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I seriously doubt the mega events would be archived. Too important. I'll look at them. Read my post above and fill in some questions here. (I am at work, so be patient with me. :( )

 

Greg

But others might be ;) ?

Would that not mean applying double standards?

This is absolutely nuts :)

Sorry, but I was not clear. Maybe adjustments might be requested, but I don't see them being archived. They might be considered "grandfathered" at this point too. It isn't my decision to say frankly, but I don't see them being archived.

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I know its absolutely barking mad as most event caches meet up somewhere that offers refreshments but according to the rules above it would be using the geocaching.com website to solicit customers.

Events are the exception there. You can post the coordinates, meet up and have food and a drink and good old geo-chat.

so pub names and menu linking on a cache page is accepted? Yes/No?

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Just seems from reading the various threads and posts around the resignations of our two reviewers that Groundspeak just don’t care.

 

They are only paying lip service to the UK and there is no understanding of the UK, its ways or the caching community.

 

This usually happens as a business expands

 

A very sad day :(

 

From what I have been reading elsewhere, I fear you have hit the nail on the head. I think they would prefer us to shut up and do what we are told, do things the American way. ;)

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If we're not able to mention the name of a pub for an event listing then Groundspeak are missing the point of one of the differences between British culture and American culture.
We are more alike than you think.

 

Hell - we even give road directions by pubs! :(
We do too. Here in Atlanta, we do the same thing. When on my side of town, we tell people to "go to the Big Chicken and turn left to go to downtown Marietta" and so forth. People around Atlanta know that it is when you say it. No wonder when you see what it is!

 

thebigchicken_2_2.jpg

 

This is why the forums and the caches need to have proper local moderation and lee-way provided for local customs and traditions. Pub names just being one of them but I am sure that there are many many more.

 

We have a lot in common with the States. Same language, similar history. We have a lot in common. But 230 years as separate countries also brings about differences. And those need to be recognised.

People in the US have "pizza and beer nights" or "wings and beer nights". I would imagine that similar things happen around the world. Many of the local cachers know these gathering places by name. As I mentioned above, we are playing a GPS based game. The GPS will get you there. Part of the fun is the discovery, even with locations for event caches. The rest of the world has been doing event caches like this for a long time now. Keep in mind that this is not doing it "the American way", it is doing "the global way".

 

Sorry, but without further clarification from Groundspeak or without emailing them first, the link to the pub menu and the pub name would probably have to be left off of the event cache page. Coordinates should get them there. Descriptions of the types of food and drinks served will let them know what to expect. You need to email Groundspeak directly for any clarifications for any specific event or cache page.

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I know its absolutely barking mad as most event caches meet up somewhere that offers refreshments but according to the rules above it would be using the geocaching.com website to solicit customers.

Events are the exception there. You can post the coordinates, meet up and have food and a drink and good old geo-chat.

so pub names and menu linking on a cache page is accepted? Yes/No?

 

what a completely ridiculous situation. Since I assume we can refer to other cachers on the cache page, then I for one will be creating a sockpuppet account called 'The Sportsman' and then say that we're all meeting at The Sportsman's place, or words to that effect....

 

TPTB seem to be doing their level best to kill of geocaching in the UK, rather than promoting and encouraging it, which is a crying shame.

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If we're not able to mention the name of a pub for an event listing then Groundspeak are missing the point of one of the differences between British culture and American culture.
We are more alike than you think.

 

Hell - we even give road directions by pubs! :)
We do too. Here in Atlanta, we do the same thing. When on my side of town, we tell people to "go to the Big Chicken and turn left to go to downtown Marietta" and so forth. People around Atlanta know that it is when you say it. No wonder when you see what it is!

 

thebigchicken_2_2.jpg

 

This is why the forums and the caches need to have proper local moderation and lee-way provided for local customs and traditions. Pub names just being one of them but I am sure that there are many many more.

 

We have a lot in common with the States. Same language, similar history. We have a lot in common. But 230 years as separate countries also brings about differences. And those need to be recognised.

People in the US have "pizza and beer nights" or "wings and beer nights". I would imagine that similar things happen around the world. Many of the local cachers know these gathering places by name. As I mentioned above, we are playing a GPS based game. The GPS will get you there. Part of the fun is the discovery, even with locations for event caches. The rest of the world has been doing event caches like this for a long time now. Keep in mind that this is not doing it "the American way", it is doing "the global way".

 

Sorry, but without further clarification from Groundspeak or without emailing them first, the link to the pub menu and the pub name would probably have to be left off of the event cache page. Coordinates should get them there. Descriptions of the types of food and drinks served will let them know what to expect. You need to email Groundspeak directly for any clarifications for any specific event or cache page.

 

Firstly, thank you to mtn-man for taking the time to reply. We may not agree with what he is saying, but at least someone is saying something.

 

Secondly, in the very common situation at UK events where you need to book food directly with the pub at which the event is being held, how are attendees supposed to do that without a menu, a link to the pub, the phone number of the pub, or even the name of the pub? Telepathy?

 

This is a very real situation and I can't see any way around it without insisting that event hosts use their own web site for this, which is something the majority of people aren't able to do.

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If as has been said all we need is the co-ords there is no need to pay to be a Premium member and run pocket queries anymore as the co-ords are available with a LOC file for free :)

 

Also does that mean that any waymark on the waymark site that is a commercial premises i.e McD's or even a museum etc has to be archived ?

Edited by Matrix
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For nearly 5 years I (or rather my alter ego) reviewed caches knowing the "Commercial" guideline. I also knew the British way of life and the place that pubs held in community affairs. I regularly and routinely allowed mentions of pubs, local cafes, tearooms etc. knowing full well that they were not solicitations, rather they were passing on useful and interesting information to other cachers, in much the same way you might recommend a viewpoint or an interesting monument.

 

This was a recognised and accepted regional interpretation of the guidelines and everyone seemed happy. Indeed, it was partly due to the "pub question" that the first UK reviewers, including Tim & June and the currently absent Moss Trooper, were appointed.

 

I am dismayed that a perfectly workable situation has now been done away with. I think it is a very sad day, not only for the UK, but everywhere else where cultures are different from our own. It is such a shame that differences are not recognised and accommodated.

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Can I just throw in that several of us Americans find these new interpretations overly strict. It's not a UK/US culture thing...it's a Groundspeak has made the decision thing.

 

A lot of our events have always said we're meeting at "XYZ Restaurant" for a night of geo-chat.

 

And now it looks like they won't any more.

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If we're not able to mention the name of a pub for an event listing then Groundspeak are missing the point of one of the differences between British culture and American culture.
We are more alike than you think.

 

 

not neccesarily true there are loads of differences that are cultural - when a moderator mentions a pitchfork does she know how derogatory it is to someone from the south west - it is to call them village idiots!

 

so many differences

 

I spent a fortnight touring greece with another family from Boston and immense differences some in language and some in culture Please do not make the mistake of assuming we are the same because we are not!

 

My kids and the american kids thought each other were SO rude - my boys would not dare say Fanny English Female reproductive organ), when we offered to knock up the americans we got weird looks (To wake up in english)

 

It was once said that we are 2 nations seperated by a single language and maybe neither side has yet learnt the truth of that

 

Bob

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The Waymarking site is as wide open as it gets. You can feel free to post what ever you want as long as there is a category for it. If there is not a category at this time, all you have to do is get three people together to manage the category and submit it for acceptance. Just about every category is accepted, so soon you would have your own category.

 

Right now, there is a category for Pubs and Inns. I see locations from the UK, Ireland, the US, Canada and China right on the main page. You can also cross-list any location across multiple categories. The sky is the limit with Waymarking!

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Now theres a thought. Waymark the venue (complete with web address, menu etc), and post a link to the waymark on the cache page. In fact it would show up in the nearest waymarks bit anyway.

 

Or do GS have another "guideline" for this ?

As far as I know, that would work.

 

UPDATE -- Groundspeak has just told me that you are still allowed to put the name of the pub and the address in your event cache pages, so cache on as you have been before!

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The Waymarking site is as wide open as it gets. You can feel free to post what ever you want as long as there is a category for it. If there is not a category at this time, all you have to do is get three people together to manage the category and submit it for acceptance. Just about every category is accepted, so soon you would have your own category.

 

Right now, there is a category for Pubs and Inns. I see locations from the UK, Ireland, the US, Canada and China right on the main page. You can also cross-list any location across multiple categories. The sky is the limit with Waymarking!

 

I am aware of Waymarking and the categories (I have a few), but my question was can you the say on the CACHE PAGE, that the venue details can be found at WMxxxx ?

 

Edit, answered in cross posting, thanks

Edited by The Royles
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mentions a pitchfork does she know how derogatory it is to someone from the south west

Well, I didn't and I'm - depending on where you draw the boundaries- less than 50 miles from the south-west.

 

Which proves the point quite succinctly, I think :)

 

Is most definitely from the South West... and the pitchfork quote is very "Country Bumbkinish"... I took it to mean that we're still all out in the fields doing "rural" things...

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Can I just throw in that several of us Americans find these new interpretations overly strict. It's not a UK/US culture thing...it's a Groundspeak has made the decision thing.

 

A lot of our events have always said we're meeting at "XYZ Restaurant" for a night of geo-chat.

 

And now it looks like they won't any more.

 

Thank you!

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Keep in mind that this is not doing it "the American way", it is doing "the global way".

 

No, its an American way, clearly no consideration has taken place on a global scale. This is the entire problem in a nutshell. An idea is formed at GS and pushed upon the rest of the world, whether they like it or not. This is thoughtless!

 

Thanks for being here to talk to us though, happy happy :)

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Secondly, in the very common situation at UK events where you need to book food directly with the pub at which the event is being held, how are attendees supposed to do that without a menu, a link to the pub, the phone number of the pub, or even the name of the pub? Telepathy?

 

 

Well thats just bu**d the Mega event.... you try organising a Mega event where 800-1000 people are going to turn up on the day without pre-organising food

 

The manager of the hotel (nb Hotel name withheld to stop 800 cachers turning up !***) in question will just think we are crazy not getting everyone to look at the menu beforehand and pre-book !

 

Oh yes lets just turn up on the day and expect the hotel to serve 800 meals in two hours !

 

This is just turning common sence into a farce !

 

*** by the way how are 800 people going to find a venue now they dont know the name of the place having to use a GPS when we are not allowed to drive on UK roads using them.... I think there will be some major accidents around harrogate in August !

 

Come on Groundspeak, this is another Wherigo farce... try thinking major decisions through before opening your mouth !

 

May I please make a comment that these are my thoughts as Harrogate Hunters and not at all related to the UK Mega committee !

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UPDATE -- Groundspeak has just told me that you are still allowed to put the name of the pub and the address in your event cache pages, so cache on as you have been before!

 

Event pages only or cache pages as well ?

 

I think he means carry on as we did before, things are back to normal. The glitch in the cache time thingy has been repaired :)

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when a moderator mentions a pitchfork does she know how derogatory it is to someone from the south west - it is to call them village idiots!

Blimey, I've lived in the south-west of England all my life and I've never heard of the term said like that :) (but I know what one is of course)

 

UPDATE -- Groundspeak has just told me that you are still allowed to put the name of the pub and the address in your event cache pages, so cache on as you have been before!

 

Excellent, common sense prevails, thank you for passing on the good news. :)

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UPDATE -- Groundspeak has just told me that you are still allowed to put the name of the pub and the address in your event cache pages, so cache on as you have been before!

 

Event pages only or cache pages as well ?

 

I think he means carry on as we did before, things are back to normal. The glitch in the cache time thingy has been repaired :)

I am only talking about event caches. For regular caches, you probably need to email Groundspeak.

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So the way I read all this is :

 

If you mention that you had a great pint and meal at the nearby "The Dog and Duck" on a cache page it would have to be approved by Groundspeak themselves and not our local guys ?

 

So, if every new cache page did that they would all have to be reviewed by the USA. I wonder how many caches are submitted on a daily basis and I wonder if they could cope over there.

Edited by Tim & June
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