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One more ethical question about geocoins?


tsunrisebey
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Since this seems to be ethical geocoin question week, I'm going to pose another question. I'm not pointing any fingers or giving any names. It seems there is a fine line on acceptable behavior and some of us have some widely varying opinions. I'm curious to see what the majority thinks about this next scenario(s).

 

So here's the question. It has to do with selling coins on ebay. Here's the scenario, so just play along. This is a made up scenario for discussion sake.

 

I've designed a coin for a vendor and let's say that I'm pretty sure that it's going to be very popular because the thread I started about it has received really positive feedback. So, as the designer of the coin, I put up the regular editions of the coin (not artist edition) before they've even shipped to customers. Meaning, the vendor gave me artist editions and regular versions and I sold my regular versions on ebay prior to others even having received their coins? Is this acceptable behavior or is there a line anywhere in the sand?

 

Now let's change the scenario a bit, what if I sold the regular version as the designer receiving my payment in coins before the version was even made available to the public. So my popular coin is up on ebay before the vendor has offered it to the regular public? Is this ok?

 

Now let me change the scenario one more time, now I am the vendor and let's just make the scenario more personal. If I were to sell the Earth Turtles on ebay before I offered them up for sale to the general public, made some big bucks then offered them to the regular public; how would you feel about that? Is this acceptable behavior?

 

What about a vendor deciding to sell their coins on ebay exclusively because the knew they could get more money by selling them one at a time? I've seen people who say they don't like this route but sooner or later they had to have the coin so they bought it. If a vendor switched over to or always sold this way; is this manner of selling is this acceptable?

 

Again, these are hypothetical situations (although I have seen some if not all the actions having already taken place in the past). Answer one question, answer them all, it's up to you.

 

How do these situations influence you as customers?

 

Is it another case of, if you got the coins in hand no matter what the scenario is, you are free to do with the coins as you please? Do we not have to consider the bigger picture? Or is this all a self-serving capitalism at its finest?

 

I'm really on the fence regarding some of these situations because there are so many facets to the scenarios. On one hand, you got the coins, they are yours, do what you feel is best. Yet, on the same hand, I feel that some thought should go into selling a coin when you are going to sell something for personal benefit especially if you're selling something before it's been offered to the customers.

 

One more comment and then I'm done with posing questions, lol. We have a pretty vocal crowd here, some choose to speak up but the majority is silent. I'm of the opinion (even if I don't like yours :D) that if you are silent and don't speak your mind and let people know what you think, you have no right to complain. If you put up with behavior because you are afraid that by speaking your mind that you'll ruin your chances of trades/gifts down the road, then that seems like cowardly behavior (to me). If you don't speak up or take a stand than certain behaviors will not change. I'm not here saying the geocoin world is an evil world :D or is it :drama: I don't know maybe it comes down to a dog eat dog world, screw everyone else. Unfortunately I just can't get on board with that mentality.

 

Ok, let the opinions fly.

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I see no problem for a designer to sell a regular edition before the vendor puts them up for sale. The main reason being is that people copy photos and flavor text (descriptions) which is a no-no on ebay. In order to report someone for copying your text or photo you have to have an existing auction (finished or published first) to direct them to. Therefore, having the first auction makes sense.

 

Is someone were selling a coin and mailing out orders, and at the same time selling them on ebay, I would expect them to get all the orders done in a reasonable amount of time (mailing out orders and ebay winners orders).

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I have helped design coins for vendors and gotten coins in payment. I have gotten AE's.

 

I'm not sure I can answer every thing you've posed, tsun, so I'm just gonna have at and see if it's close.

 

I'll say straight up and it's not necessarily a virtue, that I'm never gonna be a money maker. Never. It must be a gene or sumfin I lack.

 

When I've gotten coins, eBay would be my last thought. Never said I was the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

EBay: I buy from it and I've sold on it. Nearly everything I've sold has been for money that has gone to agencies or events.

 

Sometimes it's the only way I can get a coin I lust for, but I don't really like it. Still, if folks can make money from it, more power to them.

 

However - and it's a BIG however - I do not buy coins that are only on sale on eBay and not sold somewhere else at a general sale. It seems predatory somehow and sticks in my craw.

 

Has this answered any of it?

 

The long and short: I'm a lousy money maker.

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I see no problem for a designer to sell a regular edition before the vendor puts them up for sale. The main reason being is that people copy photos and flavor text (descriptions) which is a no-no on ebay. In order to report someone for copying your text or photo you have to have an existing auction (finished or published first) to direct them to. Therefore, having the first auction makes sense.

Is someone were selling a coin and mailing out orders, and at the same time selling them on ebay, I would expect them to get all the orders done in a reasonable amount of time (mailing out orders and ebay winners orders).

 

I'm sorry and you know I love ya, but I'm not following your logic as to why this makes it ok to be the first to sell before offered to the public/received by the public. So if I put up a coin I designed on ebay first, my photo and explanation of the auction protects me from other ebayers auctions down the road? Is that what I'm suppose to get from that?

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So if I put up a coin I designed on ebay first, my photo and explanation of the auction protects me from other ebayers auctions down the road? Is that what I'm suppose to get from that?

 

Yeah, it means people I can report people using my photos or copying my description text.

Edited by avroair
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I have helped design coins for vendors and gotten coins in payment. I have gotten AE's.

 

I'm not sure I can answer every thing you've posed, tsun, so I'm just gonna have at and see if it's close.

 

I'll say straight up and it's not necessarily a virtue, that I'm never gonna be a money maker. Never. It must be a gene or sumfin I lack.

 

When I've gotten coins, eBay would be my last thought. Never said I was the sharpest knife in the drawer.

 

EBay: I buy from it and I've sold on it. Nearly everything I've sold has been for money that has gone to agencies or events.

 

Sometimes it's the only way I can get a coin I lust for, but I don't really like it. Still, if folks can make money from it, more power to them.

 

However - and it's a BIG however - I do not buy coins that are only on sale on eBay and not sold somewhere else at a general sale. It seems predatory somehow and sticks in my craw.

 

Has this answered any of it?

 

The long and short: I'm a lousy money maker.

 

Ya, you answered a couple questions B) I appreciate your honesty too.

 

Side note: I'm not concerned about AE's on ebay, we've pounded that question of AE's on a ton of threads :drama: A person who is a regular coiner who sells/buys on ebay, no issues there. My thoughts were more along the lines of ethical behavior for designer/vendors and when/what is ok. If I did "this" or "that" what would you think, kinda thing. I bolded the part that was something I was looking for :D Thanks for the opinion. Oh, no worries on not being the sharpest knife in the drawer, I have my days too :D

Edited by tsunrisebey
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Personally, I don't even like to trade my coins until after the vendor has had the chance for the sale and has had a reasonable amount of time to sell them. I also wish that all coins were offered to the geocoin forum community prior to going to ebay. What I mean by making them available to the group is by supporting the vendors who are helping us make all these wonderful coins in the first place and are posting the coins and sales in the forums. It's frustrating when the only way to get that coin you really like is to pay inflated prices of $30-50 or more.

 

Having said all that, I guess if I paid for the coins myself or got payment for a design, I can do with those coins as I wish. How the sales are done though, will influence my future purchases from a vendor or individual no matter how nice or how much I want any future coins It is frustrating as a rather 'noob' to hear all the stories about when coins were made to trade and not sell and then you see the ebay listings by folks you know from the forums. It seems we have a double standard..

 

When my personal coins come out, I will sell some to help with costs - but not on ebay. It would also be nice if we had a way to get more exposure to non-trackable coins so that the only way to buy them wouldn't be ebay.

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Lest I be called a coward, I'll take a few stabs here. :DB)

 

I've designed a coin for a vendor and let's say that I'm pretty sure that it's going to be very popular because the thread I started about it has received really positive feedback. So, as the designer of the coin, I put up the regular editions of the coin (not artist edition) before they've even shipped to customers. Meaning, the vendor gave me artist editions and regular versions and I sold my regular versions on ebay prior to others even having received their coins? Is this acceptable behavior or is there a line anywhere in the sand?

 

It really ticks me off. Why? Because I most likely ordered the coin too, and I want to corner the Ebay market. <--Wow, did I really just say that? Well, you asked for honesty

 

Now let's change the scenario a bit, what if I sold the regular version as the designer receiving my payment in coins before the version was even made available to the public. So my popular coin is up on ebay before the vendor has offered it to the regular public? Is this ok?

 

See answer to first question :drama:

 

Now let me change the scenario one more time, now I am the vendor and let's just make the scenario more personal. If I were to sell the Earth Turtles on ebay before I offered them up for sale to the general public, made some big bucks then offered them to the regular public; how would you feel about that? Is this acceptable behavior?

 

What about a vendor deciding to sell their coins on ebay exclusively because the knew they could get more money by selling them one at a time? I've seen people who say they don't like this route but sooner or later they had to have the coin so they bought it. If a vendor switched over to or always sold this way; is this manner of selling is this acceptable?

 

I lump these two together. If you're the vendor, I could care less as long as that's not your only outlet. Refer to ATMouse post about sticky craws :D

 

How do these situations influence you as customers?

 

Ebay very rarely influences my purchasing choices. They are most influenced by forum demeanor, poor customer interaction (from the vendor and their lackeys), and/or personal meetings.

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As I've never designed a coin I find it hard to answer all the questions asked by tsun. I am of the belief that unless/until I've walked a mile in another person's shoes, I shouldn't form hard and fast opinions about that other person's actions.

 

That being said as an avid buyer of coins (both from vendors and from eBay) I will say this. It feels disconcerting to see a coin that has previously been advertised here as 'coming soon' on eBay prior to the official sale. I get this anxious feeling that I've missed the sale or that the seller has opted NOT to have the sale at all and has instead chosen to sell only on eBay. This has actually happened twice to me now this past week and I've contacted the seller to ask about the planned upcoming sale. The seller in 1 case so far nicely answered my question and reassured me that the coin would still be made available to the masses through a vendor as planned.

 

I realize that these coins are theirs to do with as they please. If they choose to sell them first on eBay, what can I do? Nothing. Do I like it? - not really. But that decision is not mine to make.

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As a buyer, I won't buy a coin if I first see it on ebay. The coin will either end up in the forums for sale or one of the coin seller's site. I don't know how to put it in words but I wouldn't feel good about the seller or myself as the buyer if I paid $20 or more for a coin on ebay and then see them up for sale a week later in the forums for $8 - 10..

 

Just my take as a buyer!!

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The first and second one would tick me off. And I'd probably be the poor person who thought this was the one chance I would have to get my hands on this particular coin (thinking it was sold out and I missed it or something.

 

I'm not to fond of vendors who sell on ebay only. Since each coin of the same design sells for a varying price, the value of it fluctuates. Like I said before I'd probably be the poor person who paid $20 (possibly for a poor quality coin) when everyone else was paying maybe $5.

 

I rarely buy from ebay, but I do browse it often to see what coins are out there to put on my seeking list. I don't buy from ebay, because hey, I'm on a budget and if I really want a coin, I can either wait until it goes on sell to the public and hope I get in on it, or just trade for it.

 

Don't mind me if I don't make any sense :drama:

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I had a lesson in ebay when I did my first personal coin. I paid for 300 coins out of my pocket, and I sold them for a reasonable amount of money in the forums with the intention of making back at least the amount of money or close to it, that I paid to have the coins minted. I really didn't plan to make any profit, but I did hope to make back the cost of minting without selling on ebay. Not many, but a few coins were listed up on ebay by people who purchased coins directly from me, and they sold for close to 3 times what I sold them for. I don't think the coins were even sold out before they hit ebay. I understand that when someone buys a coin from me, they are free to do whatever they want with it, including list it on ebay. What did get me a little bothered was the fact that I had spent MY money to mint these coins, and now someone else other than me was making profits from the coins by selling them on ebay. :drama:

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I'll keep my response short as I think my position on this is well known.

 

In short, I think people are going to do whatever serves them the best. It's sad to even see so many threads about "ethics" in what is commonly referred to by many folks in here as a "community".

 

IMO it went from being a community to a marketplace a long time ago. The occasional cointest and helping out threads being the exceptions to the rule.

 

As for WHY people sell on eBay first. I think a lot of the thinking has to do with "Why should somebody else profit from my work?" Knowing that somebody else is going to put the coin on eBay and get high dollars for it , the seller assumes that they should be the ones to profit from the work of getting the coin made and therefore beats others to the punch. Or, in rare cases they may decide to "flood the eBay market" with the coin so that others cannot drive higher prices.

 

In any case, I hate seeing what it's become. Capitalism at it's best/worst.

 

Edited to add: I see that tadpole379 just described my point above.

Edited by Kealia
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LOL.... I really like Pete's answer!! the first one.

 

Because so many forum buyers end up being Ebay sellers I don't see why the coin maker is the last one to profit (less handsomely at that) from their own coin. But they (the forums and collector sites) get a lot of coins bought and sold.

 

I don't feel good about using the forums to tickle the interest in your coin only to take it away and sell it only on Ebay. That could cause hard feelings, unless you state your intent up front.

 

EDIT: After reading Tadpole's post I have to add that if you sell a considerable percentage of your coins to someone you should know they are buying wholesale and are seeking to profit from your work, your efforts and your capital expenditure. If that bothers you why not limit the number of coins available per customer per logon... or make re-minting a possibility ... or both.

Edited by Droo
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...Ok, let the opinions fly.

You are complicating it.

If they are your coins you are free to sell them as you see fit.

If you have an agreement with the vendor that says otherwise, then you should honor that agreement.

 

If you start thinking about it and start feeling bad about selling yours before others get theirs then by all means make yourself feel better and hold off on selling them. It's not wrong to do that. It wouldn't have been wrong to never even feel bad to begin with though.

 

As a customer, I don't pay attention to eBay unless that's how the orginal seller is handling their sale.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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Personally, I don't even like to trade my coins until after the vendor has had the chance for the sale and has had a reasonable amount of time to sell them. I also wish that all coins were offered to the geocoin forum community prior to going to ebay. What I mean by making them available to the group is by supporting the vendors who are helping us make all these wonderful coins in the first place and are posting the coins and sales in the forums. It's frustrating when the only way to get that coin you really like is to pay inflated prices of $30-50 or more. ..

 

i like this part. if we don't support the vendors, then pretty soon there won't be any more vendors! or they will just sell on ebay.

 

lara

 

correct spelling

Edited by RedShoesGirl
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I hate ebay. I won't buy from it. I won't sell from it. It doesn't exist to me :D

 

I accept that people will clear out their extras by selling on ebay. That, I think is fine, but the ebay only sales and the ebay "pre" sales put a sour taste in my mouth.

 

Selling before a coin goes on sale at the store is pretty unfair. People don't know what the "value" of the coin is going to be. When you minted the first earth turtle did you realize we would crash their servers? :drama:

 

What I mean is, if a coin pops up first on ebay people have no idea if it's going to be easy or hard to acquire when or if it hits the regular market, I'm sure it creates a false sense of urgency... "Oh no, I better get it NOW for $80 bucks or I might never see it again!" and then it sits in a store for weeks and weeks at $10, not really fair. But then... that doesn't affect me, b/c like I said, I don't ebay.

 

b/c i don't ebay, I don't appreciate the ebay only sales, but I'm stubborn. No ones convincing me to make an account :D

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I've designed a coin for a vendor and let's say that I'm pretty sure that it's going to be very popular because the thread I started about it has received really positive feedback. So, as the designer of the coin, I put up the regular editions of the coin (not artist edition) before they've even shipped to customers. Meaning, the vendor gave me artist editions and regular versions and I sold my regular versions on ebay prior to others even having received their coins? Is this acceptable behavior or is there a line anywhere in the sand?

This doesn't bother me, as long as the ebay customers are not receiving the coins before the 'store' customers (assuming I've already paid and am patiently awaiting shipment)

 

Now let's change the scenario a bit, what if I sold the regular version as the designer receiving my payment in coins before the version was even made available to the public. So my popular coin is up on ebay before the vendor has offered it to the regular public? Is this ok?

Again, as long as I still have a reasonable chance of getting one, it doesn't really upset me. I'm just not going to be one of the people (idiots :drama:) spending 10x the price of the coin just to get it in 3 days earlier. I'll never understand that, but maybe I will when I'm a millionaire :D

 

Now let me change the scenario one more time, now I am the vendor and let's just make the scenario more personal. If I were to sell the Earth Turtles on ebay before I offered them up for sale to the general public, made some big bucks then offered them to the regular public; how would you feel about that? Is this acceptable behavior?

Same answer as above :D I don't think it is unreasonable that those involved with designing/creating the coin get first crack at the inflated ebay prices. Again, as long as I still have opportunity to get the coin at a reasonable price.

 

What about a vendor deciding to sell their coins on ebay exclusively because the knew they could get more money by selling them one at a time? I've seen people who say they don't like this route but sooner or later they had to have the coin so they bought it. If a vendor switched over to or always sold this way; is this manner of selling is this acceptable?

This I don't like. If a coin is being sold exculsively on Ebay, I'm out. It's one thing for a creator of a coin to sell some (how many?) on ebay, but when they're only on Ebay... then you're solely out for profit. No question for me. And not that profit is bad, I mean come on, everyone knows that coins don't cost $9 each to make, prices today in the stores still a make a reasonable profit.

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I know I have been one of the quiet ones and that is because I hate conflict. Since this thread is just about asking personal opinions, I feel comfortable saying my piece.

 

I haven't yet minted or designed a geocoin, but if/when I do I definitely have an opinion of how I will handle it.

 

Scenario 1: Designer...ebay...post-retail sale

 

I personally think this is acceptable behavior for the designer; it is an unrestricted beach in my mind :drama: I think the designer deserves to be compensated for their idea and work. Of course, I can say this with confidence because I know I was able to buy this geocoin at retail price from the vendor. Another reason I can say this is because I am not into collecting for the resale value; I have never and will never buy geocoins to turn around and sell them on ebay.

 

I will feel zero ill will toward the designer for this behavior.

 

Scenario 2: Designer...ebay...pre-retail sale

 

I think the designer's behavior is ok. I will admit to being a little unhappy about it since I don't know for sure if I will be able to buy the geocoin directly from the vendor, but for all the other reasons above I don't see any problem. As long as I believe I will be able to purchase the geocoin from the vendor for retail in the future, I will be patient and believe the expression "good things come to those who wait."

 

While I am not going to say I feel zero ill will toward the designer, it is approaching zero.

 

Scenario 3: Vendor...ebay...pre-retail sale

 

This scenario is slightly murky water for me. I believe it is the right of the vendor to handle itself in this way, but in my mind (as a consumer) this is unacceptable behavior. I see a difference in this behavior from a vendor when compared to the designer. The parallel I can draw to this is any hot new item that is being released, most recently iPhones and Wiis. I don't want to imagine AT&T and Toys R Us having ebay auctions for their stock before they were allowed to offer them at retail. I know some manufactures/suppliers have rules about that, think J.K. Rowling and the last Harry Potter book.

 

A vendor should not offer items up for auction prices before its retail release. I will remember the vendor who has done this and I will view them in a negative light compared to a vendor who never sells their pre-releases on ebay.

 

Scenario 4: Vendor...ebay only

 

I will admit it is the right of the vendor to handle itself in this way. I don't feel comfortable saying this is unacceptable, but I am leaning heavily towards this opinion. Part of me is willing to recognize that there may be reasons for only this method of sales, but I am definitely most unhappy with it as a consumer. My issue with this practice stems from my feelings about the vendor's attitude toward their geocoins. I choose not to view geocoins as a money-maker.

 

I will not patronize a vendor's ebay "store" and I have negative feelings toward any vendor who sells all or even only certain editions of their geocoins on ebay. (Vendors NOT designers, because I believe there is a difference.)

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Being still "new" to the whole coin thing....why do so many hate Ebay so much? I also quilt and often buy fabric on Ebay that I can't get anywhere locally, so I'm willing to pay the price.

 

As far as selling on ebay before it goes on sale through the forums or coin shop....

I hear all the time that the people that shop on ebay don't necessarily shop the forums/coin shop so it is really targeting a different market, isn't it? Although I think if I was going to sell my coins on ebay and a coin shop was going to be selling them also, I'd wait to post them until the coin shop did, just to keep things fair. We all know what a coin generally goes for, and if it's going for more than that on ebay it's up to the individual to do the research, which is just common sense for shopping for anything.

 

You do need to beware though. I've seen my silly boys on ebay listed as "sold out", which the purple are not. Curious where they get there info, not from me.

 

Great topic!

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I have designed a few coins for vendors and I would feel bad selling on ebay BEFORE the vendor had the opportunity to sell the coins first. Although our Canadian mail system doesn't generally allow me this luxury to even think about doing that :P I personally would feel bad doing so. The vendor paid for the production of the coin so I feel like they should have first privilege to sell first. But that's just my opinion.

 

I do start arranging trades before they go on sale, not sure why I feel that is different but I am a trade-a-holic. I love trading and cant stop myself. :P

 

Once the coin goes on sale I think it would be ok for the designer to sell their coins as they see fit.

 

I am not sure how I feel about vendors selling coins on ebay prior to selling here in the forums or in their own coin store. As long as I knew there were going to be some available later on I guess I wouldn't mind.

 

But I don't like when coins are only available for sale on ebay. I know people have their own reasons but it bugs me. My perception of it is that they are just trying to gauge people. That may not be the reason at all but to me it appears that way. If it's a coin I really like then I try and trade for it. And if i can't trade for it, once I stop sulking, I realize it just wasn't meant to be. ;)

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Okay I'm one of those people who seldom says much but I have to put in a few cents here.

 

1st I think that any coin put on ebay that has been sold or gifted with the caution of "if you ever want to get rid of me please talk to the designer 1st" is wrong.

 

2nd I would like to ask everyone what they think of the predicament that I am in...I bought a coin from a seller not ebay the first week of February and never received the coin. I have email the person the 1st week of March, the 3rd week of March and the 1st week of April and nothing still. I keep getting a its going in the mail this week. I want the coin but I also think at this point I'd rather buy it from ebay and actually receive it! What should I do?

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I personally do not have any problem with people selling coins on ebay or any other way they want to if they are the owners of the coins. I wish people would make enough coins for me to be able to buy some without participating in some internet timed buying frenzy in the niddle of the night during the work week . I refuse to participate in that kind of BS. I think it is hype of the worst kind and appeals to me much less than ebay selling, but hey, more power to ya! Whatever turns you on. But I do not think it is right to judge people harshly for buying coins and then selling a few on ebay to pay for their own coins. It is a service for those like me who don't have the time or the enthusiasm for the hyperbole of "refresh, refresh, refresh, oh goody I got one" activity. It just seems like alot of cliqish (yeah, I know not a word). Scarcity breeds value. If you are in this for the fun just make more coins. Activate a bunch and release them into the wild. Give a bunch away. Sell them cheap. I have never done the coin deals where you get a few and let the maker sell the rest. I paid for all mine up front and sold them AFTER they were in hand ready to ship that day. I do not want to be known for taking someone's money and not sending them their stuff. That is the worst kind of fraud or at the least bad management. Regarding selling coins made by others, As a rule my practice is to buy five, activate and release one or two into the wild, sell the rest and break even after paying for cache gas. And I pay income tax on any profits! One year I paid a little, this year I lost money. But guess what is coming? I think the biggest damper on ebay sales of geocoins will be the state sales tax audits that will be coming for everyone who sells anything on ebay. Get ready for some howling. All the options, lets see how many were there? are really irrelevant to me. Does any one think there are really any ethics in this or any other enterprise when money is involved? "I only sell for charities" "I don't try to make a profit" yeah yeah keep talkin. In the final analysis people do stuff until it hurts then they stop. Look at how many folks have been cashing in their collections lately. Is the bean baby getting ready to hit the fan or what? Hey guys, smart money stays home. Don't gamble with the grocery money. Time to get on ebay and hock some more iron. cya

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:P Hmmm.. Well. lot's to say but I'll keep it short and hopefully to the point, with no specific person/vendor/company/affiliate in mind. Selling on ebay was once taboo.. no more.. that was old school train of thought.. not that theres anything wrong with that.. if that's your thing.. more power to ya. Just because there are people that don't think that way doesn't make them wrong. ;)

I personally believe that the sale on ebay opens up a purchasing venue for a lot of people that can't sit by the puter waiting on sales to start, or for websites to update their cart, or whatever.. it gives a chance for the acquisition of coins you couldn't have easily otherwise gotten. Buyers happy.. Sellers happy.. Woot... all is well. :P

With that in mind....Sellers.. be it individuals or companies, shouldn't have to worry about when they sell what version or when they put them up for sale... it's a free market, NO ONE is forced to purchase!!! Am I wrong? Choose your purchases wisely grasshopper. :P IMO

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larry739 just in case, this wasn't meant to be about a individual coin customer who gets coins and sells them on ebay, lol. Resale, not an issue here in the is thread :P Just thought I'd mention that so no one else gets the idea that I was talking specifically about resellers, not my intention with this thread.

 

Thanks for the replies so far, interesting thoughts.

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Some very interestnig discussion here. Cache Maine and I recently did a coin. Our market strategy and agreement with the coin company was decided before the contract was signed by me. I had looked at many threads here and decided folks would not be happy to see any on the E-place without a chance here.

 

Our run was limited - 250 - that's it - no more! A blend of several different metals and combos of finishes - 150 were RE and it went down from there. The coin company agreed to take 50 RE to sell and would not release them until our first sale. Our first sale was at an event we co-sponsored.

 

RE and LE were available at the event and interesting more RE were sold than LE. What as left for coins (except the LE - they were kept for special swaps or trades) - were placed here in a thread on the forums for sale and sold out quickly. I limited the purchase to 5 coins each(based on the advice of a person who had previously sold a coin). It was a sure bet - some of those buyers would place a coin on Ebay.

 

The coin vendor had agreed rather than dump all 50 in their site at once to slowly release them. This spread their availablity over time. They also were interactive in posting on the thread here. This allowed a few more people to get in on the purchase of the remaining RE coins.

 

I believed - working closely with the vendor was important. I did not believe they should or we should release any of these coins anywhere or any time for sale without mutual agreement. We were able to reach that agreement and it happened.

 

As for me - I sell on Ebay - have for a long time and pre-geocoins. I would have loved to have just taken my remaining coin inventory (RE & LE) and placed it, a coin at a time on Ebay. It was posts on these forums which convenienced me to refrain from doing it that way.

 

I, also, give credit to someone who purchased off the threads here - and made a major sale on Ebay - as that coiner also donated coins to our event (before they even knew we might have a coin - they did it from their heart). For that, I thank them - truly appreciated.

 

Whatever one does, they have to look themselves in the mirror today and tomorrow. I think working and communicating with those with whom you are doing business is very important. I don't like secrets - everyone knows the playing ground and the plays - and the guy who pays is in control. Fairness is important.

 

Ebay has a place in the market. It's just the "sold out" coins which are listed there which are not "sold out" which eat my craw! Then those who are selling "new, unactivated coins" which indeed are activated - and the sellors still have 100% feedback, allow folks to adopt them and then tell the new owner to erase all the logs.......that's a negative and very unethical! And never - if someone has your coin described wrong be afraid to ask them to correct the listing. I have met a new person over this exact issue recently and it has been a very nice experience.

 

And the coin frenzy on sites - yes, Ebay offers you a way to escape it - sometimes. As I have said many times - to the prudent buyer - Ebay is a clear cut lesson in Economics 101 - supply & demand!

 

Thanks for listening.

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It's interesting to see so many sides of the coin so to speak. I think there are a couple things that are important to note here. First, you'll usually only get one chance to abuse the system before it bites you back and we've all seen it happen a few times around here in the past. So karma works out pretty well. The second thing is that no one forces you to buy a coin. I set a limit the moment I see a coin on what I'm willing to spend for it and if I can't get it for that price, I'll try to trade for it. If I can't trade for it, I'll just pine over it and that's fine, too. :P

 

The only thing that bugs me about anyone selling coins on the internet is when the listed information is patently false. Selling a coin that's never been offered to the public and calling it "Sold Out" is a particularly hated one for me. ;) (edit to add: there were a couple instances when I talked to the sellers and it was an actual listing mistake so I should give credit to the couple that quickly set things right! good karma for good people :P )

 

I think the ideal situation would be to see a coin listed available through all it's venues at the same time or as close as possible. Everyone has their favorite way of getting their paws on a coin, I just don't like to see people being mislead into spending more than they need to. :P

Edited by fox-and-the-hound
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I've designed a coin for a vendor and let's say that I'm pretty sure that it's going to be very popular because the thread I started about it has received really positive feedback. So, as the designer of the coin, I put up the regular editions of the coin (not artist edition) before they've even shipped to customers. Meaning, the vendor gave me artist editions and regular versions and I sold my regular versions on ebay prior to others even having received their coins? Is this acceptable behavior or is there a line anywhere in the sand?

 

I think this is something that should be decided beforehand between the artist and the vendor, that way there will not be any anymosity between the artist and the vendor after the fact. If you have a mutual agreement in advance then there shouldn't be any issues

 

Now let's change the scenario a bit, what if I sold the regular version as the designer receiving my payment in coins before the version was even made available to the public. So my popular coin is up on ebay before the vendor has offered it to the regular public? Is this ok?

 

See answer above

 

Now let me change the scenario one more time, now I am the vendor and let's just make the scenario more personal. If I were to sell the Earth Turtles on ebay before I offered them up for sale to the general public, made some big bucks then offered them to the regular public; how would you feel about that? Is this acceptable behavior?

 

As a vendor you have the right to sell your coins however you choose, IMO you should be clear though to the buyers that the coin will be offered LATER to the general public. That way if they want to pay a higher price to get the coin first it is their decision and they are aware that the coin will be available to the general public later.

 

What about a vendor deciding to sell their coins on ebay exclusively because the knew they could get more money by selling them one at a time? I've seen people who say they don't like this route but sooner or later they had to have the coin so they bought it. If a vendor switched over to or always sold this way; is this manner of selling is this acceptable?

 

As a vendor you have every right to sell the coins via whatever method you choose

 

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Well I think I can now have my say, finally knowing a teensy bit about the whole process :P

 

For the vendor who only sells on ebay - well I dont mind that. You have to be sure of your target purchasers though, otherwise you could have a heap of coins that dont sell, plus ebay fees, plus nowhere else to get rid of the coins. But you can get some good bargains from ebay-only vendors, especially if you wait for the first insane rush to subside.

 

Im not so keen on vendors having a a pre-retail sale on ebay - to me it seems like its being done the wrong way around. I know I wouldn't want to buy coins in this way. I'd prefer a normal sale, and if I missed out, then I would be able to grab one on ebay afterwards if I was really desperate. As a good, smart friend of mine mentioned to me - it gives the people who missed out a chance to get a coin if they really want one.

 

I feel the designer can and should be able to do what they like with the coin. BUT in saying that, I am all for the spreading of the joy. I will be trading and gifting some of my LE coins, and my husband will be selling a couple on ebay. In that way, more people will be able to get my LE coin. It's fair - well at least I think it is!

 

And for the designer having pre-retail sales? Well whatever works for them, but its not my cup of tea.

 

But I think what it comes down to is what designers/vendors want from the coin. Do you want to make money? Do you want your own coins to trade with? Do you want coins to gift to people? Do you want a lasting piece of artwork that is imbued with deep meaning? Do you want a mixture of these things?

 

I have only just yesterday received my Boomerangs, and have already seen 4 or 5 sold on ebay. Did I mind? Nope. Didn't bother me at all. I was really happy that people wanted them so much that they would pay $30+ for them. I was happy that people who didn't get any in the sale were able to get some. I was happy that people who bought a couple were able to sell them for a profit on ebay.

 

If I see a traded LE Gold Boomerang on ebay, I wont mind either.

 

But I wont be happy if I gift my gold Boomerang to someone and they then sell it on ebay. It would be like a slap in the face.

 

It all comes down to intent.

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Let me see if I get this one thing right. When you guys have a coin made, you don't buy the whole bunch of coins? You are only getting part of them back to sell or keep and the vendor "maker" of the coin sells the rest? Why don't you just do like I do and have them all made for yourself? Then they are your coins. You do what you want with them.

 

Now to answer what I think this thread is really about. Is it right to sell a coin that you got as a gift. To me, I'd have to say no. I still have every special coin that I have recieved. I don't care if it was a mystery coin of just a coin that I got for a secert santa, they are all special and I keep them. I think if someone was going the route of selling them later, well they must be screaming to the public not to ever give me a special coin again cause it wasn't that special to me anymore. The only way it would be ok is if you email the person who gave it to you and they said it was all right.

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snip..

If I see a traded LE Gold Boomerang on ebay, I wont mind either.

snip..

 

;) I can't wait to get mine in the post, and it's goin nowhere but in my permanent collection... and that's that!!! Thank you BTW... You Tassies are pretty awesome peeple. :PBAAA!!!

 

Same here...my boomer is going nowhere...much love to my favorite Gouda Swine! :P :P

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... snipped ...

 

Now let me change the scenario one more time, now I am the vendor and let's just make the scenario more personal. If I were to sell the Earth Turtles on ebay before I offered them up for sale to the general public, made some big bucks then offered them to the regular public; how would you feel about that? Is this acceptable behavior?

 

no. not at all. no matter how much i wanted a coin, i would not buy one from this vendor if this was the game they were playing.

 

What about a vendor deciding to sell their coins on ebay exclusively because the knew they could get more money by selling them one at a time? I've seen people who say they don't like this route but sooner or later they had to have the coin so they bought it. If a vendor switched over to or always sold this way; is this manner of selling is this acceptable?

 

if this is their business model, yes. it sucks, but still it is ok. just drives the prices up to where only the well-to-do can afford the coins.

 

rsg

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But I wont be happy if I gift my gold Boomerang to someone and they then sell it on ebay. It would be like a slap in the face.

 

Ebay you say? hmm.gif:P

 

Whether someone choses to sell coins on ebay or other similiar sites to gain a better $$$$, that is their choice IMO. Will i buy them? Maybe/Maybe Not. ;) Why should the coin selling process only be through this forum and/or a flash website? The whole coin collection process is a marketplace now, and if i don't like a process (eg. presales etc) then "I" have the choice not to buy them.

 

If there is money to be made by offering certain coins/versions up on auction sites, then so be it...if i want it (and can afford it) why not i say. :P

 

mm

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I personally do not have any problem with people selling coins on ebay or any other way they want to if they are the owners of the coins. I wish people would make enough coins for me to be able to buy some without participating in some internet timed buying frenzy in the niddle of the night during the work week . I refuse to participate in that kind of BS. I think it is hype of the worst kind and appeals to me much less than ebay selling, but hey, more power to ya! Whatever turns you on. But I do not think it is right to judge people harshly for buying coins and then selling a few on ebay to pay for their own coins. It is a service for those like me who don't have the time or the enthusiasm for the hyperbole of "refresh, refresh, refresh, oh goody I got one" activity. It just seems like alot of cliqish (yeah, I know not a word). Scarcity breeds value. If you are in this for the fun just make more coins. Activate a bunch and release them into the wild. Give a bunch away. Sell them cheap. I have never done the coin deals where you get a few and let the maker sell the rest. I paid for all mine up front and sold them AFTER they were in hand ready to ship that day. I do not want to be known for taking someone's money and not sending them their stuff. That is the worst kind of fraud or at the least bad management. Regarding selling coins made by others, As a rule my practice is to buy five, activate and release one or two into the wild, sell the rest and break even after paying for cache gas. And I pay income tax on any profits! One year I paid a little, this year I lost money. But guess what is coming? I think the biggest damper on ebay sales of geocoins will be the state sales tax audits that will be coming for everyone who sells anything on ebay. Get ready for some howling. All the options, lets see how many were there? are really irrelevant to me. Does any one think there are really any ethics in this or any other enterprise when money is involved? "I only sell for charities" "I don't try to make a profit" yeah yeah keep talkin. In the final analysis people do stuff until it hurts then they stop. Look at how many folks have been cashing in their collections lately. Is the bean baby getting ready to hit the fan or what? Hey guys, smart money stays home. Don't gamble with the grocery money. Time to get on ebay and hock some more iron. cya

 

The bald truth: I have sold 15 things on eBay: four or five were geocoins. The money from those sales went to the Allegany State Park Geobash. Seven or eight were American Red Cross pins that I sold for my chapter, the Allegany County Chapter of the American Red Cross, ONE item was a re-sale: I only wanted part of it and I lost money on the sale.

 

I don't know why trying to to do good for your community is something to be sneered at - for shame.

Edited by ATMouse
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I'm with Kealia, why suddenly so many questions about integrity and such here?

 

I also wonder why so many "commercial" coins lately? It's gone from personal expressions to make anything and see if it'll sell. I'm surprised by this and I feel it'll soon be the end of coins. MAYBE if people stopped worrying about how much a coin is actually worth and remember that it's not a profit-making venture....I see coins going the way of the beanie babies, and it's sad! I remember seeing coins coming out that were proudly displaying the GC logos etc...where'd they all go? Where did the cacher's names all go? Now, if it looks pretty, it's a coin, doesn't matter if it's got anything to do with caching or not. It went south quickly when some realized they could make a living off these...then it became a business instead of a passion.

 

IF I make another coin, it will be without icon and tracking numbers. It WILL be personal and it WON'T be for sale. What it'll be is a gift or a trade!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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I also wonder why so many "commercial" coins lately? It's gone from personal expressions to make anything and see if it'll sell. I'm surprised by this and I feel it'll soon be the end of coins. MAYBE if people stopped worrying about how much a coin is actually worth and remember that it's not a profit-making venture....I see coins going the way of the beanie babies, and it's sad! I remember seeing coins coming out that were proudly displaying the GC logos etc...where'd they all go? Where did the cacher's names all go? Now, if it looks pretty, it's a coin, doesn't matter if it's got anything to do with caching or not. It went south quickly when some realized they could make a living off these...then it became a business instead of a passion.

 

Personally, I am glad there are all the commercial geocoins out there. I love them all...the personals, organizational and the commercial. They all have their own charm.

 

I think the reason why we have them is simple evolution based on customer tastes. If customers didn't want those geocoins then coin manufacturers would not be selling them...basic Economics 101 in play here...no market, no coins. Besides, without those commercial geocoins we'd never have those Great Outdoors, the Morpho Butterflies, the Compass Roses, Carousel Horses or Bushwhacking Pirate Swords for collectors to enjoy. So I ask...are commercial coins really that bad?

 

I don't think that all geocoins MUST deal with caching. Why shouldn't coin designers have a little fun? Obviously the market likes the variety of coins out there or again...they would not buy them.

 

You are right on one point though...I do think coins will evolve. What they will evolve into I do not know...perhaps with rising gas and materials costs they might become smaller...who knows. Will this happen in the near future? I doubt it, but it will happen, I think.

 

Finally, I find it really short-sighted to think that the people who makes these coins don't have a passion for them in general. I have personally seen the collections of a couple coin makers and they have some of the biggest and most varied collections out there. If that doesn't speak of a passion for geocoins, I don't know what does...and if they can make a little money selling them as well, why shouldn't they?

 

All in all, I think all of the coin makers are doing a fine job and the collecting of geocoins and the geocoins themselves are just fine.

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I dissagree. Geocoins have evolved and peaked a few years ago. The variety today I see today is not that great and not like it once used to be.

 

What I find disturbing is the commercial coin makers at geocaching events selling a four dollar coin for an inflated price, with the added "extra" claiming this coin is only available here, only to see it later being sold on ebay by the same people. Kinda reminds me of the Snake Oil salesman from the 1800s.

 

geocoins have become like the cabbage patch dolls from the 80s. Can't get rid of them now.

 

I keep my favorite geocoins and the ones I personnaly recieved from friends. The others I have either sold or given away.

 

 

Personally, I am glad there are all the commercial geocoins out there. I love them all...the personals, organizational and the commercial. They all have their own charm.

 

Besides, without those commercial geocoins we'd never have those Great Outdoors, the Morpho Butterflies, the Compass Roses, Carousel Horses or Bushwhacking Pirate Swords for collectors to enjoy. So I ask...are commercial coins really that bad?

 

I don't think that all geocoins MUST deal with caching. Why shouldn't coin designers have a little fun? Obviously the market likes the variety of coins out there or again...they would not buy them.

 

You are right on one point though...I do think coins will evolve. What they will evolve into I do not know...perhaps with rising gas and materials costs they might become smaller...who knows. Will this happen in the near future? I doubt it, but it will happen, I think.

 

Finally, I find it really short-sighted to think that the people who makes these coins don't have a passion for them in general. I have personally seen the collections of a couple coin makers and they have some of the biggest and most varied collections out there. If that doesn't speak of a passion for geocoins, I don't know what does...and if they can make a little money selling them as well, why shouldn't they?

 

All in all, I think all of the coin makers are doing a fine job and the collecting of geocoins and the geocoins themselves are just fine.

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I dissagree. Geocoins have evolved and peaked a few years ago. The variety today I see today is not that great and not like it once used to be.

 

I can't say I agree with that assessment. There have been many advancements in coins...stained glass...hinged...better quality of production, etc...

 

geocoins have become like the cabbage patch dolls from the 80s. Can't get rid of them now.

 

I beg to differ. Have you seen what coins go for on eBay? It's still quite a strong market.

 

What I find disturbing is the commercial coin makers at geocaching events selling a four dollar coin for an inflated price, with the added "extra" claiming this coin is only available here, only to see it later being sold on ebay by the same people. Kinda reminds me of the Snake Oil salesman from the 1800s.

 

Well, on that note, I have seen individuals come to events and set up shop to sell their own collection at SUPER inflated prices, without even so much as entertaining a single trade offer at all. That sounds like a profit making adventure as well, I'd say. Are they Snake Oil salesmen, as well?

Edited by Arthur & Trillian
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I'm not sure it's neccessary to say that the older crowd is bitter. While that may be true for a few, it's certainly not a blanket statement (maybe it wasn't meant to be that way).

 

As for the actual topic: I don't think selling on eBay or any combination is "unethical" the more I think about it. It's commercial for sure, but unethical to me means "bait and switch" or something like that.

 

So, for me it comes down to whether you're doing something for the purposes of making a personal statement and/or doing something for the community - or doing it for money. Once you involve money people act strange.

 

I've seen it locally when cash started to be offered for completing challenge caches. It started discussions of cheating, verifying things, etc. Money makes people do things they wouldn't normally do.

 

And to avoid general statements: My personal coin has been "in a cache only" up until this point. It has nothing to do with being "better" than anybody else. It's the way I've chosen to make my coin available, just as others have chosen to sell or trade. I've turned down every trade request equally - not because I think my coin is better or worth more, it's just not how I've decided to "distribute" my coin.

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I'm with Kealia, why suddenly so many questions about integrity and such here?

 

I also wonder why so many "commercial" coins lately? It's gone from personal expressions to make anything and see if it'll sell. I'm surprised by this and I feel it'll soon be the end of coins. MAYBE if people stopped worrying about how much a coin is actually worth and remember that it's not a profit-making venture....I see coins going the way of the beanie babies, and it's sad! I remember seeing coins coming out that were proudly displaying the GC logos etc...where'd they all go? Where did the cacher's names all go? Now, if it looks pretty, it's a coin, doesn't matter if it's got anything to do with caching or not. It went south quickly when some realized they could make a living off these...then it became a business instead of a passion.

 

IF I make another coin, it will be without icon and tracking numbers. It WILL be personal and it WON'T be for sale. What it'll be is a gift or a trade!

 

Oh goody and another thread strays off course, lol. At least it stayed on course for a bit ;)

 

I don't personally know anyone who is making a living off coins, please by all means, point them out to me. You don't like the commercial aspect of coins, I get that, you've said a number of times in a number of threads.

 

Let me pose a few questions not necessarily to you RR but to anyone reading (yet I am addressing you since you wrote the above).

 

1. Your personal coin was sold right? For someone so adamant about nontrackable coins, why did you even go this route? Let me guess... it wasn't cheap to make coins was it?

 

2. Why should vendors who put all their time, staying up late, designing, putting their money forward, sell coins at cost?

 

3. Again, coins don't cost $4.00 to make, people seem to think that this is some cheap venture and vendors are making a killing. This is not a cheap hobby (coins), you're just gonna have to deal with this fact. Why does it bother you so much that a vendor is making some money off the money they invested?

 

4. Vendors/Coin Makers are some serious bread and butter for GS. I wouldn't think anyone would have an issue with this, right?

 

5. What caching to you and caching to me is going to mean and represent different things. Just becuase you see no relation to caching doesn't mean there isn't. There are millions of people with millions of interpretations. Even if a coin isn't caching related in any way, how is that hurting you or others? It's still supporting GS right?

 

6. Finding coins and moving them from cache to cache, receiving them as gifts, winning them in cointests, etc. is a great aspect of all this right?

 

On a personal note to you RR; I've seen you posting in threads about how much you love someone's design and what a great job they did on a coin that looked like it had absolutely nothing to do with caching, how come the double standard? You've won coins, been given coins as gifts, you want them for an upcoming event correct? If you don't like the way the coins have gone, then you don't want commerical coins as gifts, donations, etc. anymore right? We'd hate to offend your sensibilities :( I'm not trying to be a jerk but have you honestly thought about what you are saying and then what your actions are really saying? Kind of a 'Do as I say, not as I do' and I've been guilty of the same behavior (as most of us have) :)

 

Before anyone complains you should really look at the larger picture in all this, you don't have to like certain designs or designers/vendors but the fact is they bring an aspect to this hobby that everyone has been a part of one way or the other and has probably brought alot of joy.

 

I think the people who truly don't like what they see, got tired of us new people, just didn't like the way things went with coins, have left for the most part. They walked their talk or they just don't get involved in this aspect of things. They aren't here whining or complaining and asking/buying for coins at the same time.

 

You do your coin thing your way and I'll do my coin thing my way :D I won't complain about you and you don't complain about me (general statement here). AND edit to add: with respect and consideration and all that involves.

 

In the end without vendors and those of us who are willing to put our time and money behinds designs (like them or not), there are no coins to enjoy and less $$$ for GS. If this is fine by you, then you're definitely hanging out in the wrong thread.

Edited by tsunrisebey
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I also wonder why so many "commercial" coins lately? It's gone from personal expressions to make anything and see if it'll sell.

 

The moment someone sell some of their coins to cover the minting costs it becomes a commercial coin, with splits offered by vendors more people are able to afford their own coin... they are still personal expressions, just now with a commercial aspect.

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Why don't you stay on topic and answer the question?

 

Well, on that note, I have seen individuals come to events and set up shop to sell their own collection at SUPER inflated prices, without even so much as entertaining a single trade offer at all. That sounds like a profit making adventure as well, I'd say. Are they Snake Oil salesmen, as well?

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No answer yet, CavScout? I thought not. It proves your statement above was sanctimonious, at best.

 

he moment someone sell some of their coins to cover the minting costs it becomes a commercial coin, with splits offered by vendors more people are able to afford their own coin... they are still personal expressions, just now with a commercial aspect.

 

You make a valid point, Avroair, but I am having the feeling that Roddy was referring to "commercial" geocoins as ones having nothing (in his eyes) to do with geocaching.

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No answer yet, CavScout? I thought not. It proves your statement above was sanctimonious, at best.

 

The moment someone sell some of their coins to cover the minting costs it becomes a commercial coin, with splits offered by vendors more people are able to afford their own coin... they are still personal expressions, just now with a commercial aspect.

 

You make a valid point, Avroair, but I am having the feeling that Roddy was referring to "commercial" geocoins as ones having nothing (in his eyes) to do with geocaching.

 

The term or definition of commercial is used wrongly then. But I understand what you are saying. Maybe 'non-related' coin is a better term. To me, if the coin is sold, it's commercial and I don't distinguish between caching related or non-caching related anymore (I used to), since only a couple of vendors try to relate their coins to geocaching.

 

People who don't like the idea of non-related coins should take up their quibble with Groundspeak they were the ones who approve designs and sell the codes. It a money making gambit for them even more so than those who sell the coins.

 

:(

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QUOTE(Cav Scout @ Apr 24 2008, 10:33 AM)

What I find disturbing is the commercial coin makers at geocaching events selling a four dollar coin for an inflated price, with the added "extra" claiming this coin is only available here, only to see it later being sold on ebay by the same people. Kinda reminds me of the Snake Oil salesman from the 1800s.

 

Well, on that note, I have seen individuals come to events and set up shop to sell their own collection at SUPER inflated prices, without even so much as entertaining a single trade offer at all. That sounds like a profit making adventure as well, I'd say. Are they Snake Oil salesmen, as well?

 

 

This post has been edited by Arthur & Trillian: Today, 08:16 AM

 

 

So Arthur, are you talking about a certain guy sell coins at MOGA for a average price of $10.00 a coin? To me, that don't sound like too bad of a price for older geocoins. There was a spot next to you selling newer coins for the prices of $15.00 to $30.00 a piece. Where was the better deal that day? By the way, that ammo can swag item isn't sold on ebay like you told other people. It's not even the same thing that you was thinking of. :)

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I'm with Kealia, why suddenly so many questions about integrity and such here?

 

I also wonder why so many "commercial" coins lately? It's gone from personal expressions to make anything and see if it'll sell. I'm surprised by this and I feel it'll soon be the end of coins. MAYBE if people stopped worrying about how much a coin is actually worth and remember that it's not a profit-making venture....I see coins going the way of the beanie babies, and it's sad! I remember seeing coins coming out that were proudly displaying the GC logos etc...where'd they all go? Where did the cacher's names all go? Now, if it looks pretty, it's a coin, doesn't matter if it's got anything to do with caching or not. It went south quickly when some realized they could make a living off these...then it became a business instead of a passion.

 

IF I make another coin, it will be without icon and tracking numbers. It WILL be personal and it WON'T be for sale. What it'll be is a gift or a trade!

 

Oh goody and another thread strays off course, lol. At least it stayed on course for a bit :)

 

I don't personally know anyone who is making a living off coins, please by all means, point them out to me. You don't like the commercial aspect of coins, I get that, you've said a number of times in a number of threads.

 

Let me pose a few questions not necessarily to you RR but to anyone reading (yet I am addressing you since you wrote the above).

 

1. Your personal coin was sold right? For someone so adamant about nontrackable coins, why did you even go this route? Let me guess... it wasn't cheap to make coins was it?

 

2. Why should vendors who put all their time, staying up late, designing, putting their money forward, sell coins at cost?

 

3. Again, coins don't cost $4.00 to make, people seem to think that this is some cheap venture and vendors are making a killing. This is not a cheap hobby (coins), you're just gonna have to deal with this fact. Why does it bother you so much that a vendor is making some money off the money they invested?

 

4. Vendors/Coin Makers are some serious bread and butter for GS. I wouldn't think anyone would have an issue with this, right?

 

5. What caching to you and caching to me is going to mean and represent different things. Just becuase you see no relation to caching doesn't mean there isn't. There are millions of people with millions of interpretations. Even if a coin isn't caching related in any way, how is that hurting you or others? It's still supporting GS right?

 

6. Finding coins and moving them from cache to cache, receiving them as gifts, winning them in cointests, etc. is a great aspect of all this right?

 

On a personal note to you RR; I've seen you posting in threads about how much you love someone's design and what a great job they did on a coin that looked like it had absolutely nothing to do with caching, how come the double standard? You've won coins, been given coins as gifts, you want them for an upcoming event correct? If you don't like the way the coins have gone, then you don't want commerical coins as gifts, donations, etc. anymore right? We'd hate to offend your sensibilities :P I'm not trying to be a jerk but have you honestly thought about what you are saying and then what your actions are really saying? Kind of a 'Do as I say, not as I do' and I've been guilty of the same behavior (as most of us have) :)

 

Before anyone complains you should really look at the larger picture in all this, you don't have to like certain designs or designers/vendors but the fact is they bring an aspect to this hobby that everyone has been a part of one way or the other and has probably brought alot of joy.

 

I think the people who truly don't like what they see, got tired of us new people, just didn't like the way things went with coins, have left for the most part. They walked their talk or they just don't get involved in this aspect of things. They aren't here whining or complaining and asking/buying for coins at the same time.

 

 

In the end without vendors and those of us who are willing to put our time and money behinds designs (like them or not), there are no coins to enjoy and less $$$ for GS. If this is fine by you, then you're definitely hanging out in the wrong thread.

 

Must have hit a nerve? Sorry if my post was off-topic, I thought we were discussing aspects of coins which bothered us...I'll add this and crawl back to my hole.

 

COMMERCIAL: NOT PERSONAL! In other words, someone makes a coins purely because they liked the idea and others will buy it. I don't LIKE coins which have very little to nothing to do with caching other than a cacher made them...simple. I never said I'd not buy coins that had nothing to do with caching, some do catch my eye, some are really nice! Some are made by friends and I would ALWAYS try to buy one of my friends' coins (if I can afford them) if nothing more than to help them recoup the cost. Maybe I didn't make myself clear on that (and I see it got me blasted for my efforts)...I don't consider selling a coin as COMMERCIAL...I consider making ANY coins simply to make coins...and profit...as commercial.

 

You mention that coins don't cost $4 to make??? Do you suppose I DON'T know how much a coin costs to make?? Guess again.

 

You asked about my coin. Let me start with this...my coin was made BY the vender, I got a split of the coins and THEY are selling the rest. Did you ever see me sell ANY coins?? No? Mainly because I was having too much fun giving them away to ANYONE who'd take one! When I made my FIRST coin, I was into travel bugs and HAD to have a trackable coin (I merely thought this is what everyone does). I hadn't even SEEN more than a couple non-trackable coins and simply didn't know the ins and outs of coins....how horrid of me.

 

My Lazy Hayes Days coins were made with the trackable because most people who attend events collect coins with tracking numbers...and MOST never set "foot" in these forums so know nothing about the non-trackable/trackable aspect. Hey, one of my best caching friends is a HUGE coin collector, but never wants non-tracks...go figure. Since they want the trackabes, I give them trackables (the cost of the coin would be close to the same anyway as I don't charge enough which is evident by the LOSS I took for making last year's event coin). This year's coin (which, BTW, cost exactly what last year's coin cost) will also have the tracking numbers.

 

As for the boldened part...YOU asked our opinion and even stated somewhere that those who don't comment have no room to complain later...sorry, I thought you asked for opinions.

 

And on the personal note....did I make you mad? Did I do something to upset you and not even know? I'm sorry if I comment with polite remarks about the niceness of a coin (even if it's one I don't want), maybe I should keep my mouth shut about everything? I think I can make nice comment about the work someone did even without wanting the coin...or aren't I allowed to do this? Gee, being polite seemed the proper thing...until this little outburst. AND, just because I wouldn't BUY the coin, I'd never turn one down as a gift...that's rude in my opinion! You once gave me one of your "Chat Happens" coins...why do you suppose I wanted that?? Would it surprise you to know that the ONLY reason I wanted that coin was because it had YOUR name on it and it came from YOU! I THOUGHT it meant something to me... Oh, and do you recall me asking if you'd put your name on one of your coins?? Why do you suppose that was? I love your designs, this is the exact reason I longed for your coins. Even though they didn't have your name, I knew it was YOUR coin and that was close enough.

 

You know what? Never mind...this was way too much for me to handle today. HAVE A NICE DAY!

 

Edit to add: I'm sorry if I'm not meeting up to anyone's expectations here and I'm sorry if I've upset anyone. I'll try to keep my opinions to myself from here on...

 

I have edited my request for donations to reflect that I won't be accepting any and if anyone would like their's back, please let me know!

Edited by Rockin Roddy
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I'm with Kealia, why suddenly so many questions about integrity and such here?

 

I also wonder why so many "commercial" coins lately? It's gone from personal expressions to make anything and see if it'll sell. I'm surprised by this and I feel it'll soon be the end of coins. MAYBE if people stopped worrying about how much a coin is actually worth and remember that it's not a profit-making venture....I see coins going the way of the beanie babies, and it's sad! I remember seeing coins coming out that were proudly displaying the GC logos etc...where'd they all go? Where did the cacher's names all go? Now, if it looks pretty, it's a coin, doesn't matter if it's got anything to do with caching or not. It went south quickly when some realized they could make a living off these...then it became a business instead of a passion.

 

IF I make another coin, it will be without icon and tracking numbers. It WILL be personal and it WON'T be for sale. What it'll be is a gift or a trade!

 

Oh goody and another thread strays off course, lol. At least it stayed on course for a bit :P

 

I don't personally know anyone who is making a living off coins, please by all means, point them out to me. You don't like the commercial aspect of coins, I get that, you've said a number of times in a number of threads.

 

Let me pose a few questions not necessarily to you RR but to anyone reading (yet I am addressing you since you wrote the above).

 

1. Your personal coin was sold right? For someone so adamant about nontrackable coins, why did you even go this route? Let me guess... it wasn't cheap to make coins was it?

 

2. Why should vendors who put all their time, staying up late, designing, putting their money forward, sell coins at cost?

 

3. Again, coins don't cost $4.00 to make, people seem to think that this is some cheap venture and vendors are making a killing. This is not a cheap hobby (coins), you're just gonna have to deal with this fact. Why does it bother you so much that a vendor is making some money off the money they invested?

 

4. Vendors/Coin Makers are some serious bread and butter for GS. I wouldn't think anyone would have an issue with this, right?

 

5. What caching to you and caching to me is going to mean and represent different things. Just becuase you see no relation to caching doesn't mean there isn't. There are millions of people with millions of interpretations. Even if a coin isn't caching related in any way, how is that hurting you or others? It's still supporting GS right?

 

6. Finding coins and moving them from cache to cache, receiving them as gifts, winning them in cointests, etc. is a great aspect of all this right?

 

On a personal note to you RR; I've seen you posting in threads about how much you love someone's design and what a great job they did on a coin that looked like it had absolutely nothing to do with caching, how come the double standard? You've won coins, been given coins as gifts, you want them for an upcoming event correct? If you don't like the way the coins have gone, then you don't want commerical coins as gifts, donations, etc. anymore right? We'd hate to offend your sensibilities :) I'm not trying to be a jerk but have you honestly thought about what you are saying and then what your actions are really saying? Kind of a 'Do as I say, not as I do' and I've been guilty of the same behavior (as most of us have) :D

 

Before anyone complains you should really look at the larger picture in all this, you don't have to like certain designs or designers/vendors but the fact is they bring an aspect to this hobby that everyone has been a part of one way or the other and has probably brought alot of joy.

 

I think the people who truly don't like what they see, got tired of us new people, just didn't like the way things went with coins, have left for the most part. They walked their talk or they just don't get involved in this aspect of things. They aren't here whining or complaining and asking/buying for coins at the same time.

 

 

In the end without vendors and those of us who are willing to put our time and money behinds designs (like them or not), there are no coins to enjoy and less $$$ for GS. If this is fine by you, then you're definitely hanging out in the wrong thread.

 

Must have hit a nerve? Sorry if my post was off-topic, I thought we were discussing aspects of coins which bothered us...I'll add this and crawl back to my hole.

 

COMMERCIAL: NOT PERSONAL! In other words, someone makes a coins purely because they liked the idea and others will buy it. I don't LIKE coins which have very little to nothing to do with caching other than a cacher made them...simple. I never said I'd not buy coins that had nothing to do with caching, some do catch my eye, some are really nice! Some are made by friends and I would ALWAYS try to buy one of my friends' coins (if I can afford them) if nothing more than to help them recoup the cost. Maybe I didn't make myself clear on that (and I see it got me blasted for my efforts)...I don't consider selling a coin as COMMERCIAL...I consider making ANY coins simply to make coins...and profit!

 

You mention that coins don't cost $4 to make??? Do you suppose I DON'T know how much a coin costs to make?? Guess again.

 

You asked about my coin. Let me start with this...my coin was made BY the vender, I got a split of the coins and THEY are selling the rest. Did you ever see me sell ANY coins?? No? Mainly because I was having too much fun giving them away to ANYONE who'd take one! When I made my FIRST coin, I was into travel bugs and HAD to have a trackable coin (I merely thought this is what everyone does). I hadn't even SEEN more than a couple non-trackable coins and simply didn't know the ins and outs of coins....how horrid of me.

 

My Lazy Hayes Days coins were made with the trackable because most people who attend events collect coins with tracking numbers...and MOST never set "foot" in these forums so know nothing about the non-trackable/trackable aspect. Hey, one of my best caching friends is a HUGE coin collector, but never wants non-tracks...go figure. Since they want the trackabes, I give them trackables (the cost of the coin would be close to the same anyway as I don't charge enough which is evident by the LOSS I took for making last year's event coin). This year's coin (which, BTW, cost exactly what last year's coin cost) will also have the tracking numbers.

 

As for the boldened part...YOU asked our opinion and even stated somewhere that those who don't comment have no room to complain later...sorry, I thought you asked for opinions.

 

And on the personal note....did I make you mad? Did I do something to upset you and not even know? I'm sorry if I comment with polite remarks about the niceness of a coin (even if it's one I don't want), maybe I should keep my mouth shut about everything? I think I can make nice comment about the work someone did even without wanting the coin...or aren't I allowed to do this? Gee, being polite seemed the proper thing...until this little outburst. AND, just because I wouldn't BUY the coin, I'd never turn one down as a gift...that's rude in my opinion! You once gave me one of your "Chat Happens" coins...why do you suppose I wanted that?? Would it surprise you to know that the ONLY reason I wanted that coin was because it had YOUR name on it and it came from YOU! I THOUGHT it meant something to me... Oh, and do you recall me asking if you'd put your name on one of your coins?? Why do you suppose that was? I love your designs, this is the exact reason I longed for your coins. Even though they didn't have your name, I knew it was YOUR coin and that was close enough.

 

You know what? Never mind...this was way too much for me to handle today. HAVE A NICE DAY!

 

Ok, calm down.... how many emoticons did I need to use so you didn't take offense? Obviously I didn't use enough. No, you did not hit a nerve. No I am not mad, not even sure why you would think that, nothing in my note was in Caps to even indicate me being upset. I think you took the whole post way to personal. Since you're upset right now, I'll just leave my answer be until you blow off some steam.

 

:DB):):P:P:):) <<<<< See, me not being mad and still not being mad.

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