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Is There Cheating When it Comes to Hunting a Difficult Cache


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Ok, here it goes. I'm here to ask your opinion on the topic.Please don't respond with your opinion on me,my opinion,my state of mind,how I choose to get my point across etc... PLEASE respond to the topic and the topic only.No personal attacks allowed.No ganging up on anybody especially me(us. I'm the writer/logger for our 2 man team).

 

I started this discussion in a local forum and it was BRUTAL let me tell you.We have a local caching site here that's primarily run by 25 or so cachers from the area,board members included and if you're the 26th person to go in there and you don't agree with something they did you better come fully dressed in a suit of armor cuz you are gonna get your butt kicked from here to Sunday !! I'm not kidding, it was a bad scene so PLEASE don't let that happen here.As I've learned in my short forum time today,we all have our opinions and we all have a right to speak. As long as there's no cussing,name calling,or insulting ones race,color,religion etc... we should all be able to speak our minds and we should all be fine right ? So,tighten your forum seatbelts cuz here we go and hopefully the Lord will have mercy on all of us !!

 

We think there should be some new abbreviations for FTF and they are FTFFS and FTFBC.

 

FTFFS means you were the first to find fair and square.

FTFBC means you were the first to find by cheating.

 

Now,here's my story and this story has repeated itself dozens of times for us since we started caching last July. Before I start I'm going to toot our own horn just a bit and say that we are a team of 2 who are exceptional at finding 4 and 5 star difficulty micros,nanos and the new super micro that's even smaller than a nano.We've had only one dnf since we started and that was during our first week of caching.Other than that one,we've found every cache we've hunted. We achieved 300 finds on Sunday and we've found the hardest micros around our area.Micros that the veterans with 2,3,4 and even 7,000 finds are still looking for ! We started caching with micros not ammo boxes and they are our favorite kind of hides.We LIVE for 4-5 star difficulty nanos,LIVE FOR EM'. We just did a multi the other day that has 30 dnf's and 36 finds.All the big wigs(some have 3-4,000 finds under their belts), have dnf'd on it 2,3,4 times.Some only completed it after going back on several different occasions in different years !! They only found it after resorting to what my topic is about. It took us 40 minutes to complete. You can see this multi for yourself at "No Shovel Needed" in Illinois.

 

Here's my story...A certain evil micro hide was published a few weeks back.Now,we have super busy lives outside of caching so we don't sit around waiting for new caches to pop up and then run out to GZ to be the FTF. So we have the general area in our notify preferences and we get the FTF email log for said cache .I read it mainly because the guy it's dedicated to is someone who has put out TONS of caches that we've enjoyed hunting.Anyway,the FTF log goes on to say that the first guy out there spent 4.5 hours at GZ with no luck. He then goes to our local caching site the next day trying to round up a posse to go out there with him. He rounds up I think 5 or 6 other local cachers and they plan the rendevous. THEN he calls the cache owner and asks him for a clue or a hint !!!!! (this is all in his log), THEN to top it all off the owner of the cache goes out to GZ with this guy and his posse !!! They're all out there the next day. The guy who started the whole thing is on his lunch break. He shakes everyone's hand,they all meet and he goes right for the cache ! The rest of em' gather around to admire the find. THEN they all log the FTF together !! Each one of em' logs that they were the first to find !

 

So,another week goes by and nobody's finding this thing so we gotta get out there and check it out,it must be good. We have a group of FTF obsessed cachers in the area who actually admit to setting their alarm clocks for 5am and who have several different methods of receiving new cache notifies so when we don't see the names of all the usual suspects popping up on this cache we know it's a good one and we also know that all the usual suspects have been out there !!

 

We go out.The 2 of us as always and it just so happens we only have 1 gps cuz my team mate left his at his house !! We're lookin' around for about 10 minutes,the gps is literally frozen solid on 15' and won't move.We notice that there's this huge weird tower right there.So I hand off the gps to my mate cuz maybe he'll have better luck. I swear,as soon as I did the compass swung around and took us in a totally different direction. Wow ! We start looking around,he's about 15' from me and says "Hey,check that thing right there", so I do and BAM !! there it is. Thing is it's in a place that most cachers aren't going to check. I'd love to tell you the details but you never know who's watching !! Let's put it this way, I should NEVER,EVER,EVER have found it ! You look up "Evil Nano Hide" in the dictionary and there's a picture of this thing !! Anyway, I freak and I jump on him and almost knock him down!

 

To make my VERY LONG story short I ask you, who should get the FTF honors on this evil micro ? Us or the group that CHEATED and asked for clues and went out to GZ with the owner ???

 

Thus,the new FTF abbreviations. FTF ? Ok. How'd you find it ? Did you find it fair and square or did you cheat ?

 

Know what they said in the forum ? Get a load of this nonsens.... "How could there be cheating if there aren't any rules ??? " All hell broke loose from there and the rest is history !!!

 

OUR OPINION...If you wanna hunt in groups and cheat then stick to the huge ammo cans in the trees or under wood piles and leave the 4-5 star dif nanos to us die hard challenge seekers who don't cheat. There must be 200 hidden ammo cans to every evil micro right ? If you go out in huge numbers then hunt the caches that are in huge numbers. There needs to be a rule on cheating on the hard ones and what the heck is the point of hiding an evil 4-5 dif nano if you're just gonna tell people where it is and then go out to GZ with em' ??? IT MAKES NO SENSE !! Thanks

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Ok, here it goes. I'm here to ask your opinion on the topic.Please don't respond with your opinion on me,my opinion,my state of mind,how I choose to get my point across etc... PLEASE respond to the topic and the topic only.No personal attacks allowed.No ganging up on anybody especially me(us. I'm the writer/logger for our 2 man team).

 

Too much rules. ;)

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Ok...I won't make a comment about that exceptionally long read and the fact that I "think" I have the right idea.

 

The FTF is the first person/group/team/whatever who signed the log. Did they have an easier time of it, sure. Doesn't change the fact that they found it first. Nothing prevented you from calling other cachers to help you look or asking the owner for some help.

 

You chose not to do so.

 

No need for additional acronyms.

 

If it was me, I might put a comment in my log to say we found it without any help and maybe some good natured ribbing to the FTF crew, but I wouldn't call anyone out over it.

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Ya know, there's not really a prize for FTF or anything, so I wouldn't get so worked up over it. You know you found it by doing it the hard way, and that should be good enough. No need for any other acronyms, and I agree with the other poster that you can call out the other finders in your log.

 

I climb mountains, and I see it as something like a first ascent. Yes that first ascent was probably done by aid-climbing it, then someone else came along and free climbed it, then someone solo-free climbed it and then someone else speed-climbed it. The first guy was the first to summit, even though those other guys might have done it in a more difficult way, he was still the first on top. Doesn't matter how he got there, he still gets to have bragging rights as the first guy (or gal) to summit.

Edited by izzyvet
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Ok...I won't make a comment about that exceptionally long read and the fact that I "think" I have the right idea.

 

The FTF is the first person/group/team/whatever who signed the log. Did they have an easier time of it, sure. Doesn't change the fact that they found it first. Nothing prevented you from calling other cachers to help you look or asking the owner for some help.

 

You chose not to do so.

 

No need for additional acronyms.

 

If it was me, I might put a comment in my log to say we found it without any help and maybe some good natured ribbing to the FTF crew, but I wouldn't call anyone out over it.

 

thanks for your reply.We did exactly that ! we put a comment in about how we found it without clues/help and we didn't take the owner with us !! we had to keep it nice like it was ribbing cuz if we didn't we might be blackballed from caching the whole area.

 

As for your comment that "nothing prevented you from calling other cachers to help....." if you read my log you would understand that we didn't need any help and if we would've spent 12 hours out there we would've kept on looking and there would've NEVER come a point where we would resort to calling the owner ! C'mon,get real ! What's the fun in finding a 4-5 dif if you call for help ? We didn't choose to not call for help,we didn't need it,never have. We would go out to GZ for however long it took to find it on our own.Call it pride call it whatever but if you go out one time and you can't find it have some faith in yourself and go back again and again if you need to.Go home and think about things at least.Don't throw in the towel and call for help, c'mon !

 

What happens with cachers who can only find caches in groups is they loose the ability to think for themselves and before you know it they start to share a brain. We see it over and over here where these cachers that have been around since geocaching was invented NEVER log a solo find. They log dnf after dnf and then it's only when they go out as a group they find. That's what I mean by 'sharing a brain'.Each one brings something else to the table,a little piece of the brain,one is no good without the others and once they're all together they have a complete brain and only then do they accomplish the mission at hand. thanks

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Is it cheating when I bring my kids along with me? Is it cheating when you bring your caching partner?

 

I agree that there are some questionable practices that occur in geocaching, things that I wouldn't really consider doing myself, but I make a conscious decision to not dwell on it.

 

Matter of fact, I practice that in almost everything I do.

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Ya know, there's not really a prize for FTF or anything, so I wouldn't get so worked up over it. You know you found it by doing it the hard way, and that should be good enough. No need for any other acronyms, and I agree with the other poster that you can call out the other finders in your log.

 

I climb mountains, and I see it as something like a first ascent. Yes that first ascent was probably done by aid-climbing it, then someone else came along and free climbed it, then someone solo-free climbed it and then someone else speed-climbed it. The first guy was the first to summit, even though those other guys might have done it in a more difficult way, he was still the first on top. Doesn't matter how he got there, he still gets to have bragging rights as the first guy (or gal) to summit.

 

I like your reply and I appreciate it however, I disagree.It does matter how you/he/she/they got there. Let me pose a "got there" scenario to you in a different way ok ?....

 

You're a millionaire.You brag to all your friends that you're a millionaire but you're only a millionaire because you stole another guy's million dollars. Should you be proud that you're a millionaire because you stole another guy's million bucks ? After all, you said it doesn't matter how you got there as long as you got there right ?

 

Now a different scenario. You're a millionaire.You brag to your friends that you're a millionaire. This time you're a millionaire because you busted your butt everyday for years,workin' like a dog and you finally make your first million ! I ask you, would you feel better being a millionaire cuz you stole and cheated or would you feel better being a millionaire knowing you worked for it and earned it yourself ?

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Yeah, I don't quite understand how you can chastise other people for always caching in groups and seemingly not being able to think on their own... when you went caching with a partner? Tell the Family Teams that their 6 year old needs to go cache on their own without help otherwise they're bad parents by diminishing their mental capacity.

 

I am very quite capable of thinking for myself and caching by myself... but it's bloody boring driving around all day alone when I can bring my brother or co-worker and enjoy the company. That's what the game is about - enjoying it - and that's different for each person.

 

Getting past the wall of text of you tooting your own horn... Is it fair that they had hints and went out with the owner and you two found it on your own? In strictly opinions (and that's all it is, not rules), no - probably not. But as you said, you didn't *need* help, but sometimes people do need an extra hint or two. Does it matter in the long run? Of course not. You should feel accomplished that you found it your own way and shrug off how others want to play - at the end of the day, you enjoyed your hunt and they enjoyed theirs and no one got hurt.

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...To make my VERY LONG story short I ask you, who should get the FTF honors on this evil micro ? Us or the group that CHEATED and asked for clues and went out to GZ with the owner ???...

 

The first group is fine and they are FTF. Cheating is closer to you asking the first group for a hint than it is the first group asking the owner. It's the owners discression as to whether not not to give a hint. You had the option to ask and the odds are the owner would have given you a hint as well. Instead you got lucky. Alas, you got lucky second. That's not the other groups fault. They put in the time and effort before you got to the scene.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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*does quick math in my head*

 

They are both millionaires.

 

;)

 

You are brilliant. B)

 

Don't be upset because people aren't jumping on the bandwagon to join your side... Asking for help is not stealing or "cheating". It's help. Why not go rant at the cache owner in that case for giving them help and trying to make it enjoyable for a group that was struggling? Isn't that the real crime here! I could see if you called the owner and they didn't help you - but helped someone else.... But really, where is the harm? Do you want a gold sticker and a pat on the back for FTF with your "team"?

 

You worked hard and found the cache, congratulations! End. Of. Story.

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I stopped reading at "Here it goes."

I got a littler further. To the part about not ganging up on him. Right there I knew he was wrong.

 

I'm like the OP. I like to find things on my own without getting hints from owners. If I log a DNF 15 times before I find something so be it. Sometimes I cache with one of the uber cachers. She is famous for her phone-a-friend list. After a few minutes looking out comes the cell phone and she's calling a previous finder for a hint. Who has more fun? I don't know. I have fun doing it my way, she clearly is having fun doing it her way. The object of the game is have fun - not to claim you found it fair and they cheated.

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To make my VERY LONG story short I ask you, who should get the FTF honors on this evil micro ? Us or the group that CHEATED and asked for clues and went out to GZ with the owner ???

 

The group or person who found it first. FTF = FIRST to find. You were not first so I can't imagine how you could be first anything, except perhaps the first Hungarian to Find (or whatever your ethnic background is).

 

And to call the others cheaters is a bit much. If the owner chose to help them out in any form (if at all) that's between him and the finders and not any of your or anybody else's business.

 

In the end who really cares who found it first? What's the big deal? It's a flippin' geocache, not the Lost Dutchman's Gold Mine.

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I can certainly see why your accusation of cheating, on both forums, as well as your stated harsh opinion of the local geocaching association, would draw flies and flames.

 

You cache your way, others cache their way. 'Different' does not mean 'Cheat'.

 

Calling folks who do things differently than you do cheaters won't

A) make it true

and

2) make you any friends anywhere!

 

What the FTF group did is perfectly legit.

 

If you feel excluded (26th man in a 25-man group, as you say) maybe it's because they don't want to deal with someone that takes these things so seriously? ;)

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Is it cheating when I bring my kids along with me? Is it cheating when you bring your caching partner?

 

I agree that there are some questionable practices that occur in geocaching, things that I wouldn't really consider doing myself, but I make a conscious decision to not dwell on it.

 

Matter of fact, I practice that in almost everything I do.

 

I appreciate your reply too and I learned today (being new to the forum scene),that I don't have to respond to every reply but I think everyone's response to my topic is interesting and I think everyone deserves a response from me since I opened the topic for discussion.

 

I'm glad you said "Is it cheating when you bring your caching partner?" because this became another issue in the forum. We signed up as a team of 2.That's totally different than 5,6,7,10 totally different people from all over the area coming together. We're a team,that's a group. We have other cachers in the area that are a dad and his 2 sons, husband and wife duos etc... their geo names reflect what they are and that's different.I don't "bring" my caching partner,we're a team and we were a team from the get go. I guess it all comes down to the glory of the tough find and how you feel about that "glory" when you call the owner for clues and help. To me/us it's not glory then it's just another number. There's nothing cooler than finding a really hard one that no one else has found and feeling like "wow, we found that,that's pretty cool !"

 

Here's another thought I posed first time around with this issue and I think it's a great idea. If you like to group hunt with your friends or other cachers you meet on the trails then do so but the guy who lays his hands on the cache first is the only guy that gets to log the FTF. Him and only him.Don't you think real friends would say that's ok and let that guy have the FTF honors ? You CANNOT have 10 people log as FTF !! It's ridiculous and if it was me hunting in that group ( would never happen,this is just hypothetical), I would give my friend the high-five for finding the cache and I wouldn't log that cache as a find at all. Cachers are always talking about the journey and the experience which I TOTALLY agree is most important,but then they steal the other guy's/their friend's joy of logging the FTF alone because they want the numbers !!! So, you were with the group and you were there !! If you didn't find the cache,you didn't find the cache,the other guy did so let him have it !! Just because you were wandering around ground zero doesn't mean you should log a FTF !! Get real !

 

I know my logs are long but I need to get it out and get my point across so I'm gonna give you a PRIMO example of what I'm talking about and how we play this game ok ? I'll make it as short as possible...

 

We come off a full day of caching in a preserve,20 finds and we're beat. We decide to grab the famous "one last cache" on the way home.This cache is in this little residential area near the preserve.We get out at GZ and we're lookin' around for maybe 5 minutes when all of a sudden this car comes to a screeching halt and this guy comes running up to us. We're freakin' out cuz we think he's gonna yell at us for poking through the flower beds or something right ? He comes up and he says "What cache are you lookin' for ? " Well there's only one cache there so he knows darn well what cache we're lookin' for and turns out he's the cache owner. We chat a minute and we tell him we've been there all but 5 minutes blah-blah-blah and next thing you know the guy bends down,goes under the lamp post skirt and TOSSES US THE CACHE !!!! We're like "What the heck did you do that for ???" Long story short,we NEVER logged that cache and we NEVER will you know why ? Cuz we didn't find it fair and square and because we don't need numbers like those ! This cache owner actually wrote to us about a week later wanting to know why we didn't log it and we were thinking "Are you kidding ? Is this guy joking ?" We told him we didn't log it cuz we didn't find it !! Hello !! Same thing as asking for clues/hints from cache owners and going out to GZ with cache owners or phoning a friend who found a cache and asking them for clues/help.

 

That's just us.Maybe we're weird I don't know but there cannot possibly be any joy in finding a difficult cache after you ask for clues and/or help. thanks

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There must be 200 hidden ammo cans to every evil micro right ?

Man, where do you live?? I'd move to that area in a heartbeat for that. ;)

 

To me since I really could care less about FTF. I think it should really stand for Found The uh never mind. But really I've got some but have no idea how many and just don't care to take the time to find out. But to each there own. You can use those abbrivations in your if you like and I doubt many will question them. But I do like the light ribbing idea.

 

And I do like the comment for asking the cache owner for a hint and not a previous finder.

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How does their search method change your search method? What effect does it have on you. Be proud, but not too proud. Be humble, but not too humble.

You found a cache! Yay!

 

Now move on.

 

FTF is pretty unimportant. Caching is really not about the numbers, or the difficulty, it is about the fun. (And teasing the FTF hounds does count as fun for some of us.) ;)

 

If you want to make geocaching a competition, you will find that other people may not compete the same way you want too. And trying to force them to play your game will only cause angst for everyone involved.

 

Compete against your self and your friend and enjoy being the First to Find who is currently actually searching for the cache (FTFWICASFTC).

 

Set a goal you can enjoy meeting instead of one that forces you to watch every other cacher and their personal games.

 

For an example, another cacher gave me and my husband a great idea for a goal, and we are currently following it when possible. But we don't hold other cachers to meeting the same goal as they might not have fun doing so.

 

On the subject of group searches- getting together with friends to search for a cache can be a blast. Even our local loners have been known to join forces to find particularly well done caches. It sometimes makes the search easier, but I don't know of a single cache owner who would insist that a line be formed 200 ft from their cache so each searcher would have to find it on their own. Although that would be pretty funny. B)

 

Caches are meant to be found. If the owner doesn't complain, you shouldn't worry too much about a group search and cache.

 

Funniest odd searching method I have encountered- someone placed a cache 30 miles into the back-country here, expecting everyone to hike all 30 miles. Some enterprising cachers chartered a plane to the grass airstrip a few miles from the cache and made the find with a nice short hike. The logs are great and the owner was totally surprised.

-J

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*snip*

 

We come off a full day of caching in a preserve,20 finds and we're beat. We decide to grab the famous "one last cache" on the way home.This cache is in this little residential area near the preserve.We get out at GZ and we're lookin' around for maybe 5 minutes when all of a sudden this car comes to a screeching halt and this guy comes running up to us. We're freakin' out cuz we think he's gonna yell at us for poking through the flower beds or something right ? He comes up and he says "What cache are you lookin' for ? " Well there's only one cache there so he knows darn well what cache we're lookin' for and turns out he's the cache owner. We chat a minute and we tell him we've been there all but 5 minutes blah-blah-blah and next thing you know the guy bends down,goes under the lamp post skirt and TOSSES US THE CACHE !!!! We're like "What the heck did you do that for ???" Long story short,we NEVER logged that cache and we NEVER will you know why ? Cuz we didn't find it fair and square and because we don't need numbers like those ! This cache owner actually wrote to us about a week later wanting to know why we didn't log it and we were thinking "Are you kidding ? Is this guy joking ?" We told him we didn't log it cuz we didn't find it !! Hello !! Same thing as asking for clues/hints from cache owners and going out to GZ with cache owners or phoning a friend who found a cache and asking them for clues/help.

 

That's just us.Maybe we're weird I don't know but there cannot possibly be any joy in finding a difficult cache after you ask for clues and/or help. thanks

 

You have it backwards. A cache is not just about the search and find. It is about where it is and what is happening there and who you meet along the way. You didn't "find" that cache by the way you play, but most cachers would log about how nice it was to meet the owner and hang out and talk. He probably handed you the cache figuring you had already figured out where it must be since you were no longer searching, not thinking that you really wanted him to go away.

Be a purist if you must though. You found something at the coordinates your GPSr took you, you hopefully signed the log and have a fun story to tell online about it. Geocaching isn't always about the search and find. It can be about life too.

 

(I miss Oregone's logs.)

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...f you like to group hunt with your friends or other cachers you meet on the trails then do so but the guy who lays his hands on the cache first is the only guy that gets to log the FTF. Him and only him.Don't you think real friends would say that's ok and let that guy have the FTF honors ? You CANNOT have 10 people log as FTF !!...

In my caching group, I'm bigger, Curse is quicker, and Night Stalker is more treacherous. If Night Shadow comes she's meaner, and if Goldmoon comes she can spot what nobody can see but she's more likely to tell one of us to get it than get it herself. The first to spot may not be the first to touch and the first to touch may not be the first to open and the first to open may not be the first to sign. You can bet your sweet bippy that we share FTF.

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I can certainly see why your accusation of cheating, on both forums, as well as your stated harsh opinion of the local geocaching association, would draw flies and flames.

 

You cache your way, others cache their way. 'Different' does not mean 'Cheat'.

 

Calling folks who do things differently than you do cheaters won't

A) make it true

and

2) make you any friends anywhere!

 

What the FTF group did is perfectly legit.

 

If you feel excluded (26th man in a 25-man group, as you say) maybe it's because they don't want to deal with someone that takes these things so seriously? ;)

 

I appreciate your response but I completely disagree with you and here we go again. I said from the get go "Please don't respond to the topic with your opinion on me or my views etc... and that's EXACTLY what you did. I asked for your opinion on the topic and the topic only but you went off on a tangent about me personally ! Check yourself, you did.

 

Cheating is cheating is cheating PERIOD and it does matter how you get there. C'mon, am I alone here again ? Isn't there anybody out there who agrees with me ? It's like cheating on homework or a test ! If you do what do you learn ? When finals come along and you don't have anybody sitting next to you that you can copy off of, what then ? You fail that's what ? You cheated and you didn't learn a thing all the way to the finals !! So what ?

 

I'm full of examples and here's a good one that pertains to EXACTLY what I've said above. One of these "group" guys goes out by himself to hunt a particular multi. He dnf's on it 3 times right ? The 4th time out he takes the other "group guys" with him who also have dnf'd on it several times. Only then as a group do they FINALLY make the find. This is after a total of maybe 16-18 dnf's between em'. So this guy ( who is by the way, the dnf king of the entire area), logs his log and he actually says this "We found it.Great group effort blah-blah-blah and then he says "but I still don't get how we got to the final,I'm still confused." Do you know why he's confused ? Because he didn't do any part of it on his own and what's fun about getting to the end if you have no clue how you got there ? Yeah he got to the final and he finally logged it as a find but so what ? If you asked him about the journey or how he got there he would say " I dunno." So he added another multi to his score,so what ? If he was sitting around with a bunch of cachers who actually found it the right way and they asked him anything about it he would be clueless and sitting there looking stupid !

 

Yeah !! I got the end of a tough multi but I have no clue how I got there. Ya,that's real fun ! This multi has 30 dnf's and almost the same number of finds and it's actually really easy if you can follow directions and use your head. Could this guy ever converse about this cache ? No,cuz he never really found it, he just went along.

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FTF = 1st cacher or group that finds the cache (by whatever means at hand) and signs the log.

 

That and $3.36 will get you a gallon of gas (today anyway).

 

If you want FTF - go sooner.

 

If you want to find the cache - go anytime before it gets archived and/or muggled. You did - rejoice in that.

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...f you like to group hunt with your friends or other cachers you meet on the trails then do so but the guy who lays his hands on the cache first is the only guy that gets to log the FTF. Him and only him.Don't you think real friends would say that's ok and let that guy have the FTF honors ? You CANNOT have 10 people log as FTF !!...

In my caching group, I'm bigger, Curse is quicker, and Night Stalker is more treacherous. If Night Shadow comes she's meaner, and if Goldmoon comes she can spot what nobody can see but she's more likely to tell one of us to get it than get it herself. The first to spot may not be the first to touch and the first to touch may not be the first to open and the first to open may not be the first to sign. You can bet your sweet bippy that we share FTF.

 

I appreciate your response and like the way it was written but let me ask you this...I stated earlier that in group caching everyone brings a different part of the shared brain to the table and when those parts come together they form a full brain that gets the job done. Do you and Curse and Stalker and Shadow and Goldmoon(cool names by the way),ever log solo or do you need eachother to accomplish the mission ?

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....I appreciate your response but I completely disagree with you and here we go again. I said from the get go "Please don't respond to the topic with your opinion on me or my views etc... and that's EXACTLY what you did. I asked for your opinion on the topic and the topic only but you went off on a tangent about me personally ! ...

Here you show that you don't like people judging you.

I'm full of examples and here's a good one that pertains to EXACTLY what I've said above. One of these "group" guys goes out by himself to hunt a particular multi. He dnf's on it 3 times right ? The 4th time out he takes the other "group guys" with him who also have dnf'd on it several times. Only then as a group do they FINALLY make the find. This is after a total of maybe 16-18 dnf's between em'. So this guy ( who is by the way, the dnf king of the entire area), logs his log and he actually says this "We found it.Great group effort blah-blah-blah and then he says "but I still don't get how we got to the final,I'm still confused." Do you know why he's confused ? Because he didn't do any part of it on his own and what's fun about getting to the end if you have no clue how you got there ? Yeah he got to the final and he finally logged it as a find but so what ? If you asked him about the journey or how he got there he would say " I dunno." So he added another multi to his score,so what ? If he was sitting around with a bunch of cachers who actually found it the right way and they asked him anything about it he would be clueless and sitting there looking stupid !

Here you judge another in great detail.

 

If you afforded others the same respect and courtesy that you are asking for, these issues won't crop up.

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...f you like to group hunt with your friends or other cachers you meet on the trails then do so but the guy who lays his hands on the cache first is the only guy that gets to log the FTF. Him and only him.Don't you think real friends would say that's ok and let that guy have the FTF honors ? You CANNOT have 10 people log as FTF !!...

In my caching group, I'm bigger, Curse is quicker, and Night Stalker is more treacherous. If Night Shadow comes she's meaner, and if Goldmoon comes she can spot what nobody can see but she's more likely to tell one of us to get it than get it herself. The first to spot may not be the first to touch and the first to touch may not be the first to open and the first to open may not be the first to sign. You can bet your sweet bippy that we share FTF.

 

I appreciate your response and like the way it was written but let me ask you this...I stated earlier that in group caching everyone brings a different part of the shared brain to the table and when those parts come together they form a full brain that gets the job done. Do you and Curse and Stalker and Shadow and Goldmoon(cool names by the way),ever log solo or do you need eachother to accomplish the mission ?

Night Stalker and I cache solo or together or in other groups. The others only cache with one or both of us. They don't log though two used to log.

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I think people lose the spirit of caching by being obsessed with FTF's, geocaching is not a compatition, a little competing is ok but some people get too carried away, I know a guy how uses his sick days for them, and others who won't bother with a cache if someone logs it before they can get there. I won't place a path tag in my new caches until after the FTF so others get a reward for finding my cache and the FTF just get an acronym typed on a web page.

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*snip*

 

We come off a full day of caching in a preserve,20 finds and we're beat. We decide to grab the famous "one last cache" on the way home.This cache is in this little residential area near the preserve.We get out at GZ and we're lookin' around for maybe 5 minutes when all of a sudden this car comes to a screeching halt and this guy comes running up to us. We're freakin' out cuz we think he's gonna yell at us for poking through the flower beds or something right ? He comes up and he says "What cache are you lookin' for ? " Well there's only one cache there so he knows darn well what cache we're lookin' for and turns out he's the cache owner. We chat a minute and we tell him we've been there all but 5 minutes blah-blah-blah and next thing you know the guy bends down,goes under the lamp post skirt and TOSSES US THE CACHE !!!! We're like "What the heck did you do that for ???" Long story short,we NEVER logged that cache and we NEVER will you know why ? Cuz we didn't find it fair and square and because we don't need numbers like those ! This cache owner actually wrote to us about a week later wanting to know why we didn't log it and we were thinking "Are you kidding ? Is this guy joking ?" We told him we didn't log it cuz we didn't find it !! Hello !! Same thing as asking for clues/hints from cache owners and going out to GZ with cache owners or phoning a friend who found a cache and asking them for clues/help.

 

That's just us.Maybe we're weird I don't know but there cannot possibly be any joy in finding a difficult cache after you ask for clues and/or help. thanks

 

You have it backwards. A cache is not just about the search and find. It is about where it is and what is happening there and who you meet along the way. You didn't "find" that cache by the way you play, but most cachers would log about how nice it was to meet the owner and hang out and talk. He probably handed you the cache figuring you had already figured out where it must be since you were no longer searching, not thinking that you really wanted him to go away.

Be a purist if you must though. You found something at the coordinates your GPSr took you, you hopefully signed the log and have a fun story to tell online about it. Geocaching isn't always about the search and find. It can be about life too.

 

(I miss Oregone's logs.)

 

I appreciate your response too but (what else is new?),we're different kinds of cachers. I'll bet you frequent all of the social events in your area right ? GeoCaching is just one big social event for you,a place to meet people and make new friends ? For us it's a sport not a tea party and I think that's the problem with me getting bashed in these forums. The majority of cachers see caching as a big block party and we see it as a sport with rules written or not written. You're right, most cachers would've logged that cache even though it was handed to them and not because it was "nice to meet the owner blah-blah-blah" but to add another number to their score. C'mon,get real people !!! How do you log a cache that the owner LITERALLY handed to you and go away feeling good about it ?? Where am I ?? I must be dreaming.

 

Bottom line: A handout is a handout period. I don't want to offend anyone here, I could go on and one with this responder and his/her fantasy land view on life in general. This is the first time I've ever seen someone find a halfway point between the search and the find and call it 'life.' Wow, that's a whole new perspective.

Edited by TeamSeekAndWeShallFind
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I appreciate your response too but (what else is new?),we're different kinds of cachers. I'll bet you frequent all of the social events in your area right ? GeoCaching is just one big social event for you,a place to meet people and make new friends ? For us it's a sport not a tea party and I think that's the problem with me getting bashed in these forums. The majority of cachers see caching as a big block party and we see it as a sport with rules written or not written. You're right, most cachers would've logged that cache even though it was handed to them and not because it was "nice to meet the owner blah-blah-blah" but to add another number to their score. C'mon,get real people !!! How do you log a cache that the owner LITERALLY handed to you and go away feeling good about it ?? Where am I ?? I must be dreaming.

 

Ummm, dude. B)

 

Get.... over.... yourself. ;)

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Cheating is cheating is cheating PERIOD and it does matter how you get there. C'mon, am I alone here again ? Isn't there anybody out there who agrees with me ? It's like cheating on homework or a test ! If you do what do you learn ? When finals come along and you don't have anybody sitting next to you that you can copy off of, what then ? You fail that's what ? You cheated and you didn't learn a thing all the way to the finals !! So what ?

It seems to me that you take this fun activity a bit more seriously than a lot of others do. Geocaching is something I do in my spare time for entertainment.

 

To equate asking for hints or caching with a friend to cheating on a test (or stealing a million dollars ;)) is, to me, quite a stretch.

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*snip*

 

We come off a full day of caching in a preserve,20 finds and we're beat. We decide to grab the famous "one last cache" on the way home.This cache is in this little residential area near the preserve.We get out at GZ and we're lookin' around for maybe 5 minutes when all of a sudden this car comes to a screeching halt and this guy comes running up to us. We're freakin' out cuz we think he's gonna yell at us for poking through the flower beds or something right ? He comes up and he says "What cache are you lookin' for ? " Well there's only one cache there so he knows darn well what cache we're lookin' for and turns out he's the cache owner. We chat a minute and we tell him we've been there all but 5 minutes blah-blah-blah and next thing you know the guy bends down,goes under the lamp post skirt and TOSSES US THE CACHE !!!! We're like "What the heck did you do that for ???" Long story short,we NEVER logged that cache and we NEVER will you know why ? Cuz we didn't find it fair and square and because we don't need numbers like those ! This cache owner actually wrote to us about a week later wanting to know why we didn't log it and we were thinking "Are you kidding ? Is this guy joking ?" We told him we didn't log it cuz we didn't find it !! Hello !! Same thing as asking for clues/hints from cache owners and going out to GZ with cache owners or phoning a friend who found a cache and asking them for clues/help.

 

That's just us.Maybe we're weird I don't know but there cannot possibly be any joy in finding a difficult cache after you ask for clues and/or help. thanks

 

You have it backwards. A cache is not just about the search and find. It is about where it is and what is happening there and who you meet along the way. You didn't "find" that cache by the way you play, but most cachers would log about how nice it was to meet the owner and hang out and talk. He probably handed you the cache figuring you had already figured out where it must be since you were no longer searching, not thinking that you really wanted him to go away.

Be a purist if you must though. You found something at the coordinates your GPSr took you, you hopefully signed the log and have a fun story to tell online about it. Geocaching isn't always about the search and find. It can be about life too.

 

(I miss Oregone's logs.)

 

I appreciate your response too but (what else is new?),we're different kinds of cachers. I'll bet you frequent all of the social events in your area right ? GeoCaching is just one big social event for you,a place to meet people and make new friends ? For us it's a sport not a tea party and I think that's the problem with me getting bashed in these forums. The majority of cachers see caching as a big block party and we see it as a sport with rules written or not written. You're right, most cachers would've logged that cache even though it was handed to them and not because it was "nice to meet the owner blah-blah-blah" but to add another number to their score. C'mon,get real people !!! How do you log a cache that the owner LITERALLY handed to you and go away feeling good about it ?? Where am I ?? I must be dreaming.

Frequent them? Dude, I throw them!

 

You don't know me, you don't know my caching style or goals. Yet you have already judged who I am and what I must be like.

 

I have no problem logging a cache I have been handed when I am at the cache site and have gone there for that cache. As far as I am concerned, geocaching is to bring me places and share the joy of exploring a new area. It is NOT always about the search and the find. I have walked away from more caches due to poor placement and cruddy locations than you can imagine. If I enjoy the place and find the cache, great. If I enjoy the place and know where the cache is hidden, but get it handed to me when I arrive by another searcher, great! That means I can spend more time enjoying the area.

 

You and I do not cache alike. And I accept that. It is obvious that you have trouble accepting differences in others and their methods of playing this game. As has been said before when this subject comes up, I play geocaching 1.3, you play geocaching 1.2. Different versions for different cachers. But I am happy playing my version and accept that you would hate every minute of it. (Is that judgmental enough? ;) )

 

If you are letting geocaching anger or annoy you, you may want to think about stepping back from it and reconsidering your reasons for caching before getting deeper into the obsession. B)

 

One of the funnest caches we have ever logged a find on was handed into the vehicle by the cache owner when we pulled into his driveway. He had set the cache up so you could literally do a drive-by on it if you wanted too. We had a blast talking with him and going through the container before heading off to dinner. And it was the 3rd cache of the day where we met the owner and talked for a while.

-J

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I came across this post when Totem Lake linked it in chat. The original poster is from my home town. I understand his frustration. In the short time I have been caching it is clear to me that there are a number of people in our area who are ethically challenged. There are definitely people who over aggressively seek FTFs. There are people who post finds online who never sign the physical logs. There are people who regularly put out new caches and never maintain their existing hides. There are people who only give information with the chosen few. There are people who have no regard for the rights and concerns of the owners and managers of the properties upon which caches are hidden.

 

In short people exhibit the egomaniac personalities that can be commonly attributed to a given percentage of the population of the greater Chicago area. I do not know what that number is, but I suspect it is evenly proportional for cachers and muggles alike. With that said most geocahcers here I have met, are decent people.

 

I seek caches as a form of solace from the rat race. I do not allow the actions of others to infringe on my enjoyment. Venting in forums or chat may feel good at the time, but ultimately only serve to feed aggravation.

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I think people lose the spirit of caching by being obsessed with FTF's, geocaching is not a compatition, a little competing is ok but some people get too carried away, I know a guy how uses his sick days for them, and others who won't bother with a cache if someone logs it before they can get there. I won't place a path tag in my new caches until after the FTF so others get a reward for finding my cache and the FTF just get an acronym typed on a web page.

 

I LOVE this response not only because it sticks to the point and doesn't bash me personally but I also learned something new...C'mon ! There's actually a person who uses his sick days for FTF's and you actually know of people who won't log if someone logs before them ?? Wow, and you folks think I'm a nut ?

 

For the record,if you're saying we're obsessed with FTF's allow me to let you in on a little secret...We couldn't care less about being the FTF and neither of us would ever even think of setting our alarm clocks for 5am to get a FTF.What I'm saying is, get the FTF,God Bless,but DO IT FAIR AND DON'T CHEAT cuz if you do you don't deserve that place in the log !!! Hello ? First or 500th who cares but do it fair cuz if you don't,that's when we get peeved. When we come along and do find it fair but we have to take second chair next to cheaters, that's just plain wrong ! We'll take 2,000th to find next to the guy who was 1,999th to find and everyone else before him any day and be happy as long as HE and THEY ALL FOUND IT FAIR AND SQUARE !

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Cheating is cheating is cheating PERIOD and it does matter how you get there. C'mon, am I alone here again ? Isn't there anybody out there who agrees with me ? It's like cheating on homework or a test ! If you do what do you learn ? When finals come along and you don't have anybody sitting next to you that you can copy off of, what then ? You fail that's what ? You cheated and you didn't learn a thing all the way to the finals !! So what ?

 

 

Considering this is a game without rules, it's not cheating.

 

I don't have a problem with it. I don't fret over FTFs. I don't care how others found them. I care what I do and how I play. That's why I love caching.

 

Therefore, I disagree that more TFTCAKJHFKJJEHGFIUSY and other acronyms should be made. A FTF is the first to find it -- with or without help. That's how it goes. If people share, so be it.

 

The homework analogy doesn't work because that's against the rules. What people did to find the cache is NOT against any rules. I can't say it enough -- it's not cheating.

 

Play your game your way, others will do it their way.

 

I actually like when others find it first. Then it's not a "race" to get to it. I get there when I get there. When I started this, I wanted to get one FTF, just to do it. I have two, which is neat, but I don't care anymore.

Edited by softball29
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And we are trying, each in our own way, to explain that you can't define fair in this activity.

 

From the web:

FAIR:

# free from favoritism or self-interest or bias or deception; or conforming with established standards or rules; "a fair referee"; "fair deal"; "on ...

# impartial: showing lack of favoritism; "the cold neutrality of an impartial judge"

# not excessive or extreme; "a fairish income"; "reasonable prices"

# bonny: very pleasing to the eye; "my bonny lass"; "there's a bonny bay beyond"; "a comely face"; "young fair maidens"

# (of a baseball) hit between the foul lines; "he hit a fair ball over the third base bag"

# average: lacking exceptional quality or ability; "a novel of average merit"; "only a fair performance of the sonata"; "in fair health"; "the caliber of the students has gone from mediocre to above average"; "the performance was middling at best"

# carnival: a traveling show; having sideshows and rides and games of skill etc.

# fair(a): attractively feminine; "the fair sex"

# gathering of producers to promote business; "world fair"; "trade fair"; "book fair"

# clean: (of a manuscript) having few alterations or corrections; "fair copy"; "a clean manuscript"

# a competitive exhibition of farm products; "she won a blue ribbon for her baking at the county fair"

# free of clouds or rain; "today will be fair and warm"

# fairly: in conformity with the rules or laws and without fraud or cheating; "they played fairly"

# bazaar: a sale of miscellany; often for charity; "the church bazaar"

# join so that the external surfaces blend smoothly

# fairly: without favoring one party, in a fair evenhanded manner; "deal fairly with one another"

# (used of hair or skin) pale or light-colored; "a fair complexion";

 

I think I will use the definition of Fair that equates it to "bonny" and only find caches that are fair. ;)

But I'm not going to worry about Square as I rather like oblong and tubular caches in addition to square.

B)

-J

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Snoogans if you ever see my wife cachin you would have to call her dudette. It is something to behold.

 

To the OP. I extend to you a heartfelt invitation to look us up if you ever visit the Columbia River Gorge.

 

I cannot guarantee any FTF's or many difficulty 5 caches but we will show you some wonderful examples of what geocaching has meant to us.

 

Our FTF's have come in a few different ways. Individual, team, and group. They mean to us as much as we care to remember about them. Some a little. Some a whole lot. It is how we play the game.

 

We do not want hints but have been given them and have been happy when they have been offered. That is the type of geocaching community we geocache with.

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You and I do not cache alike. And I accept that. It is obvious that you have trouble accepting differences in others and their methods of playing this game. As has been said before when this subject comes up, I play geocaching 1.3, you play geocaching 1.2. Different versions for different cachers. But I am happy playing my version and accept that you would hate every minute of it. (Is that judgmental enough? B) )

 

 

I'm glad I keep all this wisdom on my clipboard for emergencies... ;)

 

"Everyone plays their own game. There is no sense in trying to police another's mindset as long as it falls within the general parameters of the game." Me (quoting myself from the poll that I posted on 10/23/03.)

 

The hider is playing a game called geocaching. They are evidently playing it right because their cache was approved.

 

You are also playing a GAME (sport/hobby/obsession/etc.) evidently called MY version of Geocaching 1.5, or maybe even 2.O. You seem to be failing at your game if you are not able to enjoy it. (also me - I forget when though...)

 

"Failure is a hard pill to swallow until you realize the only failure you can really have in this sport is the failure to enjoy yourself."

TotemLake 4/26/04

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I appreciate your response too but (what else is new?),we're different kinds of cachers. I'll bet you frequent all of the social events in your area right ? GeoCaching is just one big social event for you,a place to meet people and make new friends ? For us it's a sport not a tea party and I think that's the problem with me getting bashed in these forums. The majority of cachers see caching as a big block party and we see it as a sport with rules written or not written. You're right, most cachers would've logged that cache even though it was handed to them and not because it was "nice to meet the owner blah-blah-blah" but to add another number to their score. C'mon,get real people !!! How do you log a cache that the owner LITERALLY handed to you and go away feeling good about it ?? Where am I ?? I must be dreaming.

 

Bottom line: A handout is a handout period. I don't want to offend anyone here, I could go on and one with this responder and his/her fantasy land view on life in general. This is the first time I've ever seen someone find a halfway point between the search and the find and call it 'life.' Wow, that's a whole new perspective.

 

Interesting. Your "rules to post" say no personal attacks and you did JUST THAT here (and in your other thread). You are being hypocritical and taking this GAME (yes, it's a game, not a sport) way TOO seriously.

 

THERE ARE NO WRITTEN RULES that say anything against what you are complaining about.

 

This is a great social game.

 

Sorry, but you are being way too competitive, especially about this game. You need to take a deep breath and have some fun and stop worrying about other cachers.

 

I'm not attacking personally here, I'm just seeing the same thing in two threads. Deep breath.

Edited by softball29
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*snip*

 

We come off a full day of caching in a preserve,20 finds and we're beat. We decide to grab the famous "one last cache" on the way home.This cache is in this little residential area near the preserve.We get out at GZ and we're lookin' around for maybe 5 minutes when all of a sudden this car comes to a screeching halt and this guy comes running up to us. We're freakin' out cuz we think he's gonna yell at us for poking through the flower beds or something right ? He comes up and he says "What cache are you lookin' for ? " Well there's only one cache there so he knows darn well what cache we're lookin' for and turns out he's the cache owner. We chat a minute and we tell him we've been there all but 5 minutes blah-blah-blah and next thing you know the guy bends down,goes under the lamp post skirt and TOSSES US THE CACHE !!!! We're like "What the heck did you do that for ???" Long story short,we NEVER logged that cache and we NEVER will you know why ? Cuz we didn't find it fair and square and because we don't need numbers like those ! This cache owner actually wrote to us about a week later wanting to know why we didn't log it and we were thinking "Are you kidding ? Is this guy joking ?" We told him we didn't log it cuz we didn't find it !! Hello !! Same thing as asking for clues/hints from cache owners and going out to GZ with cache owners or phoning a friend who found a cache and asking them for clues/help.

 

That's just us.Maybe we're weird I don't know but there cannot possibly be any joy in finding a difficult cache after you ask for clues and/or help. thanks

 

You have it backwards. A cache is not just about the search and find. It is about where it is and what is happening there and who you meet along the way. You didn't "find" that cache by the way you play, but most cachers would log about how nice it was to meet the owner and hang out and talk. He probably handed you the cache figuring you had already figured out where it must be since you were no longer searching, not thinking that you really wanted him to go away.

Be a purist if you must though. You found something at the coordinates your GPSr took you, you hopefully signed the log and have a fun story to tell online about it. Geocaching isn't always about the search and find. It can be about life too.

 

(I miss Oregone's logs.)

 

I appreciate your response too but (what else is new?),we're different kinds of cachers. I'll bet you frequent all of the social events in your area right ? GeoCaching is just one big social event for you,a place to meet people and make new friends ? For us it's a sport not a tea party and I think that's the problem with me getting bashed in these forums. The majority of cachers see caching as a big block party and we see it as a sport with rules written or not written. You're right, most cachers would've logged that cache even though it was handed to them and not because it was "nice to meet the owner blah-blah-blah" but to add another number to their score. C'mon,get real people !!! How do you log a cache that the owner LITERALLY handed to you and go away feeling good about it ?? Where am I ?? I must be dreaming.

Frequent them? Dude, I throw them!

 

You don't know me, you don't know my caching style or goals. Yet you have already judged who I am and what I must be like.

 

I have no problem logging a cache I have been handed when I am at the cache site and have gone there for that cache. As far as I am concerned, geocaching is to bring me places and share the joy of exploring a new area. It is NOT always about the search and the find. I have walked away from more caches due to poor placement and cruddy locations than you can imagine. If I enjoy the place and find the cache, great. If I enjoy the place and know where the cache is hidden, but get it handed to me when I arrive by another searcher, great! That means I can spend more time enjoying the area.

 

You and I do not cache alike. And I accept that. It is obvious that you have trouble accepting differences in others and their methods of playing this game. As has been said before when this subject comes up, I play geocaching 1.3, you play geocaching 1.2. Different versions for different cachers. But I am happy playing my version and accept that you would hate every minute of it. (Is that judgmental enough? ;) )

 

If you are letting geocaching anger or annoy you, you may want to think about stepping back from it and reconsidering your reasons for caching before getting deeper into the obsession. B)

 

One of the funnest caches we have ever logged a find on was handed into the vehicle by the cache owner when we pulled into his driveway. He had set the cache up so you could literally do a drive-by on it if you wanted too. We had a blast talking with him and going through the container before heading off to dinner. And it was the 3rd cache of the day where we met the owner and talked for a while.

-J

 

Again,as with all the other responders,I appreciate your response but I have to be honest here,it's a very rare occassion that I am rendered speechless,in fact, I can't remember the last time,but this is one of those times. Wow. I'm at a loss for words.....almost....wait,here's some....Is this response a joke or is it real ? Seriously,all kidding aside. The 'funnest' cache you ever did blah-blah story, is that true ? Are you being serious ? If it is true then there's only one of us who needs to "think about stepping back......" and it isn't me.

 

Again...Where am I ?

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