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Lame First Hides


GPS-Hermit
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Is it not reasonable to conclude, then, that all those bland and easy cache hides you call "lame" are just as worthy, acceptable, valuable, and "successful" as the ones you happen to prefer?
Like always you mixed up several points together to try to get a pork-barrel filled bill past me. I'm vetoing this bill because I don't agree that an undercooked burger will be just as successful as a finely cooked burger at pleasing most people. If you have time, you can read the reviews of the fast-food restaurant as Sbell suggested to see what people really think about both restaurants! :laughing:

I happen to like my burgers rare and many people love steak tartare.

You are missing the point. Do I really have to add some special sauce on those burgers to make the point clearer?

 

You were the one telling me to read reviews. Don't you practice what you preach?

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Now Mushtang, I know you are not objecting to someone voicing an opinion, and unfairly labeling them as a Complainer as a result. And I know you are not instructing anyone on "how to cache" or "how to avoid caches" to be more concise.

I see you know him... :D:ph34r:

 

You are just not happy unless you can start a fight.

And this surprises you why? :D:laughing:

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Certainly not the empty cups.

At least three folks in here would vigorously defend your decision to use your empty paper cup as a cache. :laughing:

If the container protected the log, I'd defend it. I'm sure that you'll agree that whether a container is appropriate is completely dependant on the location. For instance, an altoids can doesn't even bother to slow water down and it gets all rusty, but if it's placed in a dry place, it's jake.

Edited by sbell111
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Is it not reasonable to conclude, then, that all those bland and easy cache hides you call "lame" are just as worthy, acceptable, valuable, and "successful" as the ones you happen to prefer?
Like always you mixed up several points together to try to get a pork-barrel filled bill past me. I'm vetoing this bill because I don't agree that an undercooked burger will be just as successful as a finely cooked burger at pleasing most people. If you have time, you can read the reviews of the fast-food restaurant as Sbell suggested to see what people really think about both restaurants! :laughing:

I happen to like my burgers rare and many people love steak tartare.

You are missing the point. Do I really have to add some special sauce on those burgers to make the point clearer?

 

You were the one telling me to read reviews. Don't you practice what you preach?

The thing is, you are still trying to 'prove success'. A successful burger is one that performs as designed. As long as it meets the guidelines, a rare burger will be more successful one than a well-done one, for those people that are hankering for a rare burger.

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Now Mushtang, I know you are not objecting to someone voicing an opinion, and unfairly labeling them as a Complainer as a result. And I know you are not instructing anyone on "how to cache" or "how to avoid caches" to be more concise.

I see you know him... :D:ph34r:

 

You are just not happy unless you can start a fight.

And this surprises you why? :D:laughing:

Posts like that go further to 'start a fight' than any of the actual debate in these threads.

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Now Mushtang, I know you are not objecting to someone voicing an opinion, and unfairly labeling them as a Complainer as a result. And I know you are not instructing anyone on "how to cache" or "how to avoid caches" to be more concise.

I see you know him... :D:ph34r:

 

You are just not happy unless you can start a fight.

And this surprises you why? :D:laughing:

I would appreciate it if you could stay on topic and stop getting personal. Read the forum guidelines if you need a refresher.

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Is it not reasonable to conclude, then, that all those bland and easy cache hides you call "lame" are just as worthy, acceptable, valuable, and "successful" as the ones you happen to prefer?
Like always you mixed up several points together to try to get a pork-barrel filled bill past me. I'm vetoing this bill because I don't agree that an undercooked burger will be just as successful as a finely cooked burger at pleasing most people. If you have time, you can read the reviews of the fast-food restaurant as Sbell suggested to see what people really think about both restaurants! :D

I happen to like my burgers rare and many people love steak tartare.

You are missing the point. Do I really have to add some special sauce on those burgers to make the point clearer?

 

You were the one telling me to read reviews. Don't you practice what you preach?

The thing is, you are still trying to 'prove success'. A successful burger is one that performs as designed. As long as it meets the guidelines, a rare burger will be more successful one than a well-done one, for those people that are hankering for a rare burger.

You are still missing the point so I will have to alter to the analogy to make it easier for you to understand. If people order a burger and they get one that is taken from the freezer and thrown on the bun frozen, most people won't like it. Anyhow, would it be possible to read customer reviews of that restaurant that to see if most people were happy with the frozen burgers?

 

Now are you going to tell me that you like eating frozen burgers? :laughing:

Edited by TrailGators
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Is it not reasonable to conclude, then, that all those bland and easy cache hides you call "lame" are just as worthy, acceptable, valuable, and "successful" as the ones you happen to prefer?
Like always you mixed up several points together to try to get a pork-barrel filled bill past me. I'm vetoing this bill because I don't agree that an undercooked burger will be just as successful as a finely cooked burger at pleasing most people. If you have time, you can read the reviews of the fast-food restaurant as Sbell suggested to see what people really think about both restaurants! :D
I happen to like my burgers rare and many people love steak tartare.
You are missing the point. Do I really have to add some special sauce on those burgers to make the point clearer?

 

You were the one telling me to read reviews. Don't you practice what you preach?

The thing is, you are still trying to 'prove success'. A successful burger is one that performs as designed. As long as it meets the guidelines, a rare burger will be more successful one than a well-done one, for those people that are hankering for a rare burger.
You are still missing the point so I will have to alter to the analogy to make it easier for you to understand. If people order a burger and they get one that is taken from the freezer and thrown on the bun frozen, most people won't like it. Anyhow, would it be possible to read customer reviews of that restaurant that to see if most people were happy with the frozen burgers?

 

Now are you going to tell me that you like eating frozen burgers? :laughing:

I think that you have succeeded in breaking your own analogy.

 

BTW, do you remember in that other thread when someone explained that restaurant analogies don't really work because you are not ordering up and paying for a cache hide. It's like comparing grapefruit to softballs.

Edited by sbell111
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Did you know that 30% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

 

Let's say I place a cache, Lock & Lock style, small, painted green with Krylon Fusion paint for plastic, stuck under a few decent size rocks at the end of a dead end road - maybe 5 feet off the gravel. Cache includes a log, pencil (sharpened) and a few small dollar store toys.

 

Lame or Not Lame? (Great idea for a website, no?) :laughing:

 

10% say it's great, thank you.

50% just log it (TNLN TFTC).

10% hate it, too easy.

5% are DNF entries.

25% write a short note, neither like or dislike it.

 

The 10% that claimed they hate it will complain about it on a forum, leaving the other 85% (the silent majority).

 

Is there a point to this little example?

 

No, I just got tired of reading about raw hamburger.

 

And no, my math isn't wrong - remember 5% haven't found it yet.

Edited by XopherN71
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Did you know that 30% of all statistics are made up on the spot?

 

Let's say I place a cache, Lock & Lock style, small, painted green with Krylon Fusion paint for plastic, stuck under a few decent size rocks at the end of a dead end road - maybe 5 feet off the gravel. Cache includes a log, pencil (sharpened) and a few small dollar store toys.

 

Lame or Not Lame? (Great idea for a website, no?) :laughing:

 

10% say it's great, thank you.

50% just log it (TNLN TFTC).

10% hate it, too easy.

5% are DNF entries.

25% write a short note, neither like or dislike it.

 

The 10% that claimed they hate it will complain about it on a forum, leaving the other 85% (the silent majority).

 

Is there a point to this little example?

 

No, I just got tired of reading about raw hamburger.

 

And no, my math isn't wrong - remember 5% haven't found it yet.

I've talked to everyone at local events and they all told me that they loved that cache.

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Is it not reasonable to conclude, then, that all those bland and easy cache hides you call "lame" are just as worthy, acceptable, valuable, and "successful" as the ones you happen to prefer?

Like always you mixed up several points together to try to get a pork-barrel filled bill past me. I'm vetoing this bill because I don't agree that an undercooked burger will be just as successful as a finely cooked burger at pleasing most people. If you have time, you can read the reviews of the fast-food restaurant as Sbell suggested to see what people really think about both restaurants! :laughing:

Talk about mixing up points -- I never said anything about burgers, pork or restaurants. I only asked a simple and straightforward question.

 

Do you really find it so difficult to admit that other cachers’ aesthetic preferences can be very different from yours, yet still allow them to enjoy the hobby just as much as you do? Or do you honestly believe your caching preferences are somehow superior to, or more valid than, the preferences of others?

 

It’s an easy question. I’m still very curious. If it makes you uncomfortable to answer, however, feel free to continue dancing around it.

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Is it not reasonable to conclude, then, that all those bland and easy cache hides you call "lame" are just as worthy, acceptable, valuable, and "successful" as the ones you happen to prefer?
Like always you mixed up several points together to try to get a pork-barrel filled bill past me. I'm vetoing this bill because I don't agree that an undercooked burger will be just as successful as a finely cooked burger at pleasing most people. If you have time, you can read the reviews of the fast-food restaurant as Sbell suggested to see what people really think about both restaurants! :D
I happen to like my burgers rare and many people love steak tartare.
You are missing the point. Do I really have to add some special sauce on those burgers to make the point clearer?

 

You were the one telling me to read reviews. Don't you practice what you preach?

The thing is, you are still trying to 'prove success'. A successful burger is one that performs as designed. As long as it meets the guidelines, a rare burger will be more successful one than a well-done one, for those people that are hankering for a rare burger.
You are still missing the point so I will have to alter to the analogy to make it easier for you to understand. If people order a burger and they get one that is taken from the freezer and thrown on the bun frozen, most people won't like it. Anyhow, would it be possible to read customer reviews of that restaurant that to see if most people were happy with the frozen burgers?

 

Now are you going to tell me that you like eating frozen burgers? :laughing:

I think that you have succeeded in breaking your own analogy.

 

BTW, do you remember in that other thread when someone explained that restaurant analogies don't really work because you are not ordering up and paying for a cache hide. It's like comparing grapefruit to softballs.

And you pulled that excuse out now?

 

This analogy works because you don't know what you are going to get until you look inside your bag. 1/1s are like fast-food restaurants. We all know that there are better restaurants but fast-food restaurants have their purpose. We can make the burger a trial free if you want to use the spending money excuse. The frozen burger represents a cache that is not prepared at all. I've seen pieces of paper stuck behind signs or garbage bags with swag inside that someone pawned off as a cache. Anyhow, if we are being honest we've all seen caches that were not good ideas even though they met the guidelines.

 

So here is a new analogy. You are having a big party and you are all out of salsa except for some salsa that a friend of yours gave to you that is so hot that only like 10 people on the planet can eat it. Do you still serve it at your party (without any warning!) even though you have a very strong hunch that most people won't like it. Or do you exert extra effort and run to the store and buy some cheap no-name brand salsa or would you buy some award winning salsa? It's your party what would you honestly do?

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Is it not reasonable to conclude, then, that all those bland and easy cache hides you call "lame" are just as worthy, acceptable, valuable, and "successful" as the ones you happen to prefer?

Like always you mixed up several points together to try to get a pork-barrel filled bill past me. I'm vetoing this bill because I don't agree that an undercooked burger will be just as successful as a finely cooked burger at pleasing most people. If you have time, you can read the reviews of the fast-food restaurant as Sbell suggested to see what people really think about both restaurants! :laughing:

Talk about mixing up points -- I never said anything about burgers, pork or restaurants. I only asked a simple and straightforward question.

 

Do you really find it so difficult to admit that other cachers' aesthetic preferences can be very different from yours, yet still allow them to enjoy the hobby just as much as you do? Or do you honestly believe your caching preferences are somehow superior to, or more valid than, the preferences of others?

 

It's an easy question. I'm still very curious. If it makes you uncomfortable to answer, however, feel free to continue dancing around it.

 

I'll separate the points for you:

 

Is it not reasonable to conclude, then, that all those bland and easy cache "ill-placed hides" you call "lame" (Putting words in my mouth again?)

 

are:

1) just as worthy Yes - only because they meet the guidelines

2) acceptable Yes - only because they meet the guidelines

3) valuable N/A

4) "successful" No and you can read/compare the logs on the caches in question to see this.

as the ones you most people happen to prefer?

 

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Is it not reasonable to conclude, then, that all those bland and easy cache hides you call "lame" are just as worthy, acceptable, valuable, and "successful" as the ones you happen to prefer?
Like always you mixed up several points together to try to get a pork-barrel filled bill past me. I'm vetoing this bill because I don't agree that an undercooked burger will be just as successful as a finely cooked burger at pleasing most people. If you have time, you can read the reviews of the fast-food restaurant as Sbell suggested to see what people really think about both restaurants! :D
I happen to like my burgers rare and many people love steak tartare.
You are missing the point. Do I really have to add some special sauce on those burgers to make the point clearer?

 

You were the one telling me to read reviews. Don't you practice what you preach?

The thing is, you are still trying to 'prove success'. A successful burger is one that performs as designed. As long as it meets the guidelines, a rare burger will be more successful one than a well-done one, for those people that are hankering for a rare burger.
You are still missing the point so I will have to alter to the analogy to make it easier for you to understand. If people order a burger and they get one that is taken from the freezer and thrown on the bun frozen, most people won't like it. Anyhow, would it be possible to read customer reviews of that restaurant that to see if most people were happy with the frozen burgers?

 

Now are you going to tell me that you like eating frozen burgers? :laughing:

I think that you have succeeded in breaking your own analogy.

 

BTW, do you remember in that other thread when someone explained that restaurant analogies don't really work because you are not ordering up and paying for a cache hide. It's like comparing grapefruit to softballs.

And you pulled that excuse out now?

 

This analogy works because ...

Generally, if you have to work hard to explain an analogy, then it doesn't fit.
So here is a new analogy. You are having a big party and you are all out of salsa except for some salsa that a friend of yours gave to you that is so hot that only like 10 people on the planet can eat it. Do you still serve it at your party (without any warning!) even though you have a very strong hunch that most people won't like it. Or do you exert extra effort and run to the store and buy some cheap no-name brand salsa or would you buy some award winning salsa? It's your party what would you honestly do?
A friend of mine gave me the salsa, presumably because he likes it and I like it. That makes at least two people at the party that like it. Assuming that my friends have similar tastes as me, they'll also probably like it.

 

Either way, I assume that I'm serving more than just a bowl of salsa at the party. If someone doesn't like the salsa, they can enjoy the crudites, the cheese and crackers, or have a piece of cake. There is something for all tastes.

Edited by sbell111
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Do you still serve it at your party (without any warning!) even though you have a very strong hunch that most people won't like it.

Wow, this analogy is broken from the start.

 

Without any warning? Are you suggesting that people look for LPCs without realizing it? Nobody that has access to the cache description and the D/T ratings will ever drive over to Walmart parking lot expecting an ammo can hidden in a difficult way. I'd make the super hot sauce available to those that wanted it, but I'd be sure to make it clear somehow that it was super hot sauce. I might go out and get something else to serve with it.

 

A very strong hunch that most people won't like it? Now it sounds like you're suggesting that most cachers don't like the caches you don't like. Your dislike of LPCs doesn't mean that most cachers don't like them. It doesn't even mean that some cachers don't like them. In your analogy I'd be serving hot sauce to a group where as soon as any super hot sauce is served about half of them SWARM to get to it and they eat it up quickly with smiles on their faces. I think it would be safe to assume that a LOT of the people at the party would enjoy it, and then I'd probably find something for the rest of them too.

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You get an invitation to a party, on that invitation it states there will be potato chips available in 4oz bags.

 

You prefer 8oz bags but go anyway, only to find they are generic - not brand name.

 

It was the size advertised, but maybe not up to your standards.

 

Do you complain or simply smile and say thank you?

 

A few weeks go by and you get yet another invitation, same deal...

 

You still prefer 8oz bags and decide not to go because of your experience last time.

 

Turns out this party had brand name chips and you're missing out.

 

 

Do you start going to these parties again and take your chances or skip them?

Edited by XopherN71
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You get an invitation to a party, on that invitation it states there will be potato chips available in 4oz bags.

 

You prefer 8oz bags but go anyway, only to find they are generic - not brand name.

 

It was the size advertised, but maybe not up to your standards.

 

Do you complain or simply smile and say thank you?

:laughing:

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Do you still serve it at your party (without any warning!) even though you have a very strong hunch that most people won't like it.
Without any warning? Are you suggesting that people look for LPCs without realizing it?
Do you have a way to tell me which fast-food caches (1/1) I'm looking for are LPCs? I'll happily remove that statement if you can let me know that! :laughing: In fact, I'll leave this discussion because I finally got what I wanted!! :D Edited by TrailGators
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You get an invitation to a party, on that invitation it states there will be potato chips available in 4oz bags.

 

You prefer 8oz bags but go anyway, only to find they are generic - not brand name.

 

It was the size advertised, but maybe not up to your standards.

 

Do you complain or simply smile and say thank you?

 

A few weeks go by and you get yet another invitation, same deal...

 

You still prefer 8oz bags and decide not to go because of your experience last time.

 

Turns out this party had brand name chips and you're missing out.

 

 

Do you start going to these parties again and take your chances or skip them?

You didn't answer my analogy. You go first and then I'll answer yours.... :laughing:
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I stated my honest opinion, none of the above.

 

If I knew nobody liked the hot I wouldn't serve it, especially without telling them.

 

If I was the host, I also wouldn't ditch my party to find a replacement... it's not that important.

 

The analogy just doesn't work, unless there's a twist to the plot you're saving for ammo later on. :laughing:

Edited by XopherN71
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Do you still serve it at your party (without any warning!) even though you have a very strong hunch that most people won't like it.
Without any warning? Are you suggesting that people look for LPCs without realizing it?
Do you have a way to tell me which fast-food caches (1/1) I'm looking for are LPCs? I'll happily remove that statement if you can let me know that! :D

It was hard to follow such a broken analogy, I didn't realize the without warning part indicated LPCs.

 

In fact, I'll leave this discussion because I finally got what I wanted!! :laughing:
But I thought that YOU already gave yourself a way to avoid the caches you don't like, by using the average log length.

 

Bye.

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I stated my honest opinion, none of the above.

 

If I knew nobody liked the hot I wouldn't serve it, especially without telling them.

 

If I was the host, I also wouldn't ditch my party to find a replacement... it's not that important.

:laughing:

You wouldn't be ditching yuor party. You have time before the party starts to go get whatever salsa you choose for your party. By the way one or two people might like the hot. You can only serve one because we are talking one cache here for the analogy. Now what would you do?
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I stated my honest opinion, none of the above.

 

If I knew nobody liked the hot I wouldn't serve it, especially without telling them.

 

If I was the host, I also wouldn't ditch my party to find a replacement... it's not that important.

:laughing:

You wouldn't be ditching yuor party. You have time before the party starts to go get whatever salsa you choose for your party. By the way one or two people might like the hot. You can only serve one because we are talking one cache here for the analogy. Now what would you do?

Right there is where you broke your own analogy.

 

In the caching world, you don't have just one cache to choose from you have hundreds or thousands. If you are unwilling to choose the low hanging ripe fruit, why should we be concerned about whether you can sort the high stuff out, especially since methods have been offered?

Edited by sbell111
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Real world... I'd go to the store quick and pick up a replacement. Not the fancy stuff either, something in the middle if they had it, otherwise no name is just fine.

 

Cache world, I'd serve it up - if they don't like it there's a lot more to choose from than just mine.

Edited by XopherN71
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Real world... I'd go to the store quick and pick up a replacement. Not the fancy stuff either, something in the middle if they had it, otherwise no name is just fine.

 

Cache world, I'd serve it up - if they don't like it there's a lot more to choose from than just mine.

I'd go to the kitchen and make some salsa or some other kind of dip.

 

Anyone have a clue how this relates to caching or the OP?

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Real world... I'd go to the store quick and pick up a replacement. Not the fancy stuff either, something in the middle if they had it, otherwise no name is just fine.

 

Cache world, I'd serve it up - if they don't like it there's a lot more to choose from than just mine.

The analogy works because the topic is about "first hide." But we make decisions like this for every hide we make. They are like parties to me. Some people throw great parties as we all know but most people throw fun parties. Some people throw dud parties mainly because they don't think and plan it right. Anyhow, you arrived at same conclusion I would have and many others would have but some don't. So I really don't think we are that far apart. Edited by TrailGators
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Now are you going to tell me that you like eating frozen burgers? :ph34r:

mmmmm! Hamburger ice cream. B) Now we're getting somewhere :laughing:

:D We can serve this new Hamburger ice cream to the Defenders!

I'm sure they'll enjoy it! B)

 

AB-BP-24385.jpg

"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today!"

 

P.S. Mr. Moderator: This was a brief moment of comic relief with Toz to lighten things up a little. Now back to the topic..... :D

Edited by TrailGators
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Real world... I'd go to the store quick and pick up a replacement. Not the fancy stuff either, something in the middle if they had it, otherwise no name is just fine.

 

Cache world, I'd serve it up - if they don't like it there's a lot more to choose from than just mine.

The analogy works because the topic is about "first hide." But we make decisions like this for every hide we make. They are like parties to me. Some people throw great parties as we all know but most people throw fun parties. Some people throw dud parties mainly because they don't think and plan it right. Anyhow, you arrived at same conclusion I would have and many others would have but some don't. So I really don't think we are that far apart.

Again, if you have to explain the analogy...

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Now are you going to tell me that you like eating frozen burgers? :ph34r:

mmmmm! Hamburger ice cream. B) Now we're getting somewhere :laughing:

:D We can serve this new Hamburger ice cream to the Defenders!

I'm sure they'll enjoy it! B)

 

AB-BP-24385.jpg

"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today!"

 

P.S. Mr. Moderator: This was a brief moment of comic relief with Toz to lighten things up a little. Now back to the topic..... :D

And now we have the classic off topic image post by TrailGators along with the snide insult.

 

Apology to the mods or not, I'd appreciate you staying on topic and to stop posting off topic images in threads.

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A young local kid found out about Geocaching and hid this cache... http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...8f-4461bcb96372 He has no finds and does not understand the instructions on the website or the ones I send him. He cannot figure out how to make it active or know how it became disabled in the first place. It is really a great cache... good spot, good container, nice log book, pretty area. but he wanted the coords about 150 feet off intentionally to make it "more fun". there is a marina within the search area with several expensive boats moored there. what do you think?

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A young local kid found out about Geocaching and hid this cache... http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...8f-4461bcb96372 He has no finds and does not understand the instructions on the website or the ones I send him. He cannot figure out how to make it active or know how it became disabled in the first place. It is really a great cache... good spot, good container, nice log book, pretty area. but he wanted the coords about 150 feet off intentionally to make it "more fun". there is a marina within the search area with several expensive boats moored there. what do you think?

If the coords are that far off on purpose I'd say that it's probably best if it stays disabled. It wouldn't matter if it's a marina with expensive boats or in the woods. Intentionally misleading finders seems like it should violate something in the guidelines anyway.

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It's "later" enough.

 

These threads tend to complain about various types of caches. You can use your own poster child for caches you hate. I've seen complaints about LPC's nanos, micros in the woods, regular caches hidden under sticks, crappy placement, etc...

 

The real problem in my mind is that when you complain about caches, you are actually complaining about cachers. If you don't think this is true, try linking to specific cache pages that fit your personal definition of "lame" to use as examples. I'm pretty sure you would be told that you are violating forum guidelines.

 

I've said it before in other threads but I'll say it again:

 

I don't defend "lame" caches, (whatever that may mean to you) I defend cachers and their right to place any cache that meets the guidelines.

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I've read both sides of this over and over again and have a couple of points to make.

 

First of all I don't think either side is listening to the other. You're all to busy standing entrenched in your position lobbing volleys back and forth at each other. Even when you agree with each other you disagree.

 

Secondly I think all cachers should make their hide the best cache they can. They should hide a cache that they would want to find. They should enjoy hiding the cache. As long as they do that and the cache meets the guidelines they have a good cache.

That doesn't mean I will like it. It doesn't mean you will like it. It doesn't mean it will fit into any one cacher's definition of a good cache, except the hider's. Regardless of what you think about it, that's good enough.

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People who take it upon themselves to publicly criticize other people's caches need to keep in mind that hiders enjoy placing caches for a wide variety of different reasons, and that seekers enjoy seeking caches for a wide variety of different reasons as well.

Apply that you what your amigo just wrote today in another thread...

I think decoys are kinda lame. After all, if I look in a spot and the cache is not there, I don't require a decoy in the spot to tell me that the cache isn't there.
So what do ya say about that?! :laughing:

 

I personally think a decoy cache would be a great cache for a first hider. I've found a couple of very funny ones! :laughing:

Edited by TrailGators
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...what do you think?

 

I think you used the SBA when you should have helped the kid figure out how to re-activate the cache. Looks like he's not the most computer literate and yet you want to adopt the cache so the cache must be good.

 

So you have a kid who's hidden a good cache has some ideas on it, and some whiny finders. At least the kids cache problems can be fixed. The OP would like this cache. They would have to hunt for it.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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