Why should it be illegal to view Garmin Maps with Mapsource?

[+Bazzer]

Why is it not possible to view maps that I have purchased from Garmin on "Chips" to install directly into my Colorado etc with Mapsource for purposes of route planning etc? I understand that it is possible to do so if I "crack" the security codes. But why should that be necessary? If I purchased Topo 2008 or City Nav on CD rom then I could do so. But I purchased a 400t with TOPO 2008 already installed. I don't want to pirate the maps, just see them "full screen" on my PC that I use for GeoCaching. I think Garmin want me to purchase them twice. Grhhh

Barry

Edited April 5, 2008 by Bazzer

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Because the maps are locked to the card. And Garmin states in advance that the card can only be used with the GPS unit. And the license that you purchased permits you to view the maps on GPS units but not on a computer.

 

It's a trade off you agreed to with the license agreement. You can use the SD card with any compatible GPS unit but not with your computer.

 

That's why people generally advocate purchasing the maps on disk instead of on SD card for most users.

[+ruggedswordfish]

they just want more money, if you buy digital rather than paper they loose money because you can just replicate the maps time and time again....

 

Certainly with the uk, we (tax payers) paid for the maps to be created in the first place.... so why should we have to pay again!

 

**waits for peoples disagreement!

[+WPee & mapp]

THIRD PARTY DEVELOPERS should be aware of the same lack of interest in USER SUPPORT from this manufacture.

 

If we can not PRINT FULL SCREEN from the GPS to the computers printer, it becomes a PLAY ONLY device much like early CD ROM players.

(Or only prints the format the manufacture wants it to print)

 

I like NEW STUFF as much as the next guy...BUT ..."DOES NOT PLAY WELL WITH OTHERS" causes me to just walk away.

[+Manatee87]

Yes, if you purchase on DVD and download maps to the GPS unit, you get twice the utility of the version on SD. With the DVD version you can use it in Mapsource and do all sorts of useful things. But then what would you expect from the company that sells you a license that you can't move over to a new one of their own GPS units if you decide to replace your old one. It's no wonder that there's an active trade in "cracked" Garmin map products. I don't know if that's due to their oppressive licensing contracts or just the usual people who steal everything.

[+Manatee87]

If we can not PRINT FULL SCREEN from the GPS to the computers printer, it becomes a PLAY ONLY device much like early CD ROM players.

(Or only prints the format the manufacture wants it to print)

You could use a screen capture utility, save it in a graphic format like .jpg, and print it. Not ideal, but usable.

[+Bazzer]

If we can not PRINT FULL SCREEN from the GPS to the computers printer, it becomes a PLAY ONLY device much like early CD ROM players.

(Or only prints the format the manufacture wants it to print)

You could use a screen capture utility, save it in a graphic format like .jpg, and print it. Not ideal, but usable.

I haven't "cracked" anything, I don't know how, but I can't blame anyone who has. I love the 400T, but I think Garmin's marketing of maps, sucks. I wouldn't mind if my cards locked me to one unit, that's all I have. But I would like to plan with Mapsource.

CraZY I call it.

 

Barry

[+Michael]

For the record discussion of cracking software and maps and suggestions on how to get around said protection is not allowed on these forums. Please stop this part of the discussion now before it crosses the line.

 

Thank you.

[MtnHermit]

Why is it not possible to view maps that I have purchased from Garmin on "Chips" to install directly into my Colorado etc with Mapsource for purposes of route planning etc? I understand that it is possible to do so if I "crack" the security codes. But why should that be necessary? If I purchased Topo 2008 or City Nav on CD rom then I could do so. But I purchased a 400t with TOPO 2008 already installed. I don't want to pirate the maps, just see them "full screen" on my PC that I use for GeoCaching. I think Garmin want me to purchase them twice. Grhhh

Barry,

 

As I understand the issues, Garmin does not own any of the "road warrior" maps. These are purchased from Naviteq and TeleAtlas. These companies impose very restrictive licensing terms on their users. As a measure of the value of the intellectual property involved, Naviteq was just sold to Nokia for $5B and Garmin dropped out of the bidding for TeleAtlas at $3B. Basically, you're blaming Garmin for a problem they have no control over.

 

Garmin does own the Topo family of maps and you'll see much more liberal use terms.

 

Also, IIRC, Garmin is the only company which has maps on a PND and a PC software like Mapsource. So if you purchased any other PND, their would be no PC viewing option. In this case you're damming Garmin for a feature no other GPS company offers. Seems unfair.

 

FWIW

Edited April 6, 2008 by MtnHermit

[SiliconFiend]

Why is it not possible to view maps that I have purchased from Garmin on "Chips" to install directly into my Colorado etc with Mapsource for purposes of route planning etc? I understand that it is possible to do so if I "crack" the security codes. But why should that be necessary? If I purchased Topo 2008 or City Nav on CD rom then I could do so. But I purchased a 400t with TOPO 2008 already installed. I don't want to pirate the maps, just see them "full screen" on my PC that I use for GeoCaching. I think Garmin want me to purchase them twice. Grhhh

Barry,

 

As I understand the issues, Garmin does not own any of the "road warrior" maps. These are purchased from Naviteq and TeleAtlas. These companies impose very restrictive licensing terms on their users. As a measure of the value of the intellectual property involved, Naviteq was just sold to Nokia for $5B and Garmin dropped out of the bidding for TeleAtlas at $3B. Basically, you're blaming Garmin for a problem they have no control over.

This is one of the big reasons that OpenStreetMap was started. Free maps, for everyone, to use however you like. There is an application called mkgmap that can convert OSM data to (non-routable) Garmin IMG format. Plus, with OSM, you have the ability to fix any map problems you encounter.

[MtnHermit]

This is one of the big reasons that OpenStreetMap was started. Free maps, for everyone, to use however you like. There is an application called mkgmap that can convert OSM data to (non-routable) Garmin IMG format. Plus, with OSM, you have the ability to fix any map problems you encounter.

Is routeable the real issue and the value?

 

Since I'm city phobic, I could care less, but for the masses, I believe, having routable maps is the holy grail.

[SiliconFiend]

This is one of the big reasons that OpenStreetMap was started. Free maps, for everyone, to use however you like. There is an application called mkgmap that can convert OSM data to (non-routable) Garmin IMG format. Plus, with OSM, you have the ability to fix any map problems you encounter.

Is routeable the real issue and the value?

 

Since I'm city phobic, I could care less, but for the masses, I believe, having routable maps is the holy grail.

I don't know if it's the "real issue", but I do think free, auto-generated, easily updated (and user-correctable) routable maps is indeed the holy grail. I'm working on a project to create routable Polish-format maps from OSM data. Those files would then need to be fed into cGPSMapper (until someone else decodes the routing file format). The thing that's holding me up is that I want to make it completely flexible so if you want only trails, you can create a map with that, or if you want a bike-centric one, you can have that instead. It's a complex problem and it's tricky finding the right approach.

[MtnHermit]

The thing that's holding me up is that I want to make it completely flexible so if you want only trails, you can create a map with that, or if you want a bike-centric one, you can have that instead. It's a complex problem and it's tricky finding the right approach.

Some unsolicited advice:

 

In my opinion, you're taking too big of a bite to chew. Best to nibble at the project.

 

Treat your ultimate flexible goal as a high want and do today that which is achievable with known resources. As the project matures, you can come back to the the lofty goals. You'll pick up volunteers as you have a measure of success.

 

I looked at the seeded maps and they're very good. Put up a mission statement and seek people with targeted skills to help. This needn't all fall on only your shoulders.

 

FWIW

[+Prime Suspect]

they just want more money, if you buy digital rather than paper they loose money because you can just replicate the maps time and time again....

 

Certainly with the uk, we (tax payers) paid for the maps to be created in the first place.... so why should we have to pay again!

 

**waits for peoples disagreement!

Nobody's talking paper here. Your argument makes no sense. The discussion is memory card vs. DVD (which have the exact same MSRP). As for who makes the maps, Garmin, and other map makers employ a staff of cartographers, and large contingent of people who actually go out and drive the roads in specially designed vehicles for this purpose. The idea that they just get the map data for free from the government is incorrect.

[+space_weaseal]

Well i was thinking of getting the 400t, but now if i get a Co. it will be the 300 and get Topo seperate on CD..

[+space_weaseal]

Why is it not possible to view maps that I have purchased from Garmin on "Chips" to install directly into my Colorado etc with Mapsource for purposes of route planning etc? I understand that it is possible to do so if I "crack" the security codes. But why should that be necessary? If I purchased Topo 2008 or City Nav on CD rom then I could do so. But I purchased a 400t with TOPO 2008 already installed. I don't want to pirate the maps, just see them "full screen" on my PC that I use for GeoCaching. I think Garmin want me to purchase them twice. Grhhh

Barry,

 

As I understand the issues, Garmin does not own any of the "road warrior" maps. These are purchased from Naviteq and TeleAtlas. These companies impose very restrictive licensing terms on their users. As a measure of the value of the intellectual property involved, Naviteq was just sold to Nokia for $5B and Garmin dropped out of the bidding for TeleAtlas at $3B. Basically, you're blaming Garmin for a problem they have no control over.

 

Garmin does own the Topo family of maps and you'll see much more liberal use terms.

 

Also, IIRC, Garmin is the only company which has maps on a PND and a PC software like Mapsource. So if you purchased any other PND, their would be no PC viewing option. In this case you're damming Garmin for a feature no other GPS company offers. Seems unfair.

 

FWIW

So Garmin has no control???? So they did not spend the extra 2b but will make a extra 2b in software sales..(Thats smart on there part)

They certanly have the control to load it onto their product, (400t) or sell it seperate...Look im not tying to start a flame war but its all about economics...If you sell the 400t with a preload that cant be used on someones comp. That person will eventually want to plot a map and load them, so "yeah you guessed it" that person will have to spend more money on software, (probbaly your product)..

Edited April 7, 2008 by space_weaseal

[+RonFisk]

Well i was thinking of getting the 400t, but now if i get a Co. it will be the 300 and get Topo seperate on CD..

That brings up a good point. What happens on your 400t when a new TOPO is released? Will there be an update available as a download or are you just stuck with that original TOPO?

Edited April 7, 2008 by RonFisk

[+XopherN71]

You can pay an upgrade free for the new maps, same as OEM navigation on vehicles for example.

 

To answer the original question...

 

The simple answer is that the PC version isn't included with the device. Can you use MapSource to add waypoints and other information, sure you can... you just won't have the nice looking maps on your PC unless you buy them. If you upgrade your device down the road you can pay for a second unlock code at a reduced rate ($75 I think is is).

 

Don't blame Garmin, blame the hackers... The device restriction wasn't an issue until 2008 I believe it was.

Edited April 7, 2008 by XopherN71

[SiliconFiend]

The thing that's holding me up is that I want to make it completely flexible so if you want only trails, you can create a map with that, or if you want a bike-centric one, you can have that instead. It's a complex problem and it's tricky finding the right approach.

Some unsolicited advice:

 

In my opinion, you're taking too big of a bite to chew. Best to nibble at the project.

 

Treat your ultimate flexible goal as a high want and do today that which is achievable with known resources. As the project matures, you can come back to the the lofty goals. You'll pick up volunteers as you have a measure of success.

 

I looked at the seeded maps and they're very good. Put up a mission statement and seek people with targeted skills to help. This needn't all fall on only your shoulders.

 

FWIW

Well, thanks for the advice, but I don't think it's too much to bite off. I have a nice design (I think so, anyway) for how the customization can work, in terms of an example XML rules file. But I have to figure out how all the pieces are going to interact, then write the parser for the rules file, etc. I have it in my mind how it will work, but I need to get it written down so I can solve the sticky problems before I get to writing code. I have some good mentors to help me out in the architecture department (probably where I'm lacking the most), and I have ideas for the features I want to implement, and the phases in which that will happen. Also, I'm writing this as a plugin for an existing utility which takes care of a lot of the plumbing for me, allowing me to focus on the parts I care about.

 

This is partly an exercise in software engineering for me, so I want to take on something that's a meaningful size, but not too big. I think this fits.

[+Renegade Knight]

Why is it not possible to view maps that I have purchased from Garmin on "Chips" to install directly into my Colorado etc with Mapsource for purposes of route planning etc? I understand that it is possible to do so if I "crack" the security codes. But why should that be necessary? If I purchased Topo 2008 or City Nav on CD rom then I could do so. But I purchased a 400t with TOPO 2008 already installed. I don't want to pirate the maps, just see them "full screen" on my PC that I use for GeoCaching. I think Garmin want me to purchase them twice. Grhhh

Barry

 

In simple terms it's contract law. Your contract with Garmin allows you to use the maps on your GPS. Not your PC. If you wanted to use your maps on your PC and your GPS you should have bougt Topo and a Colorado 300.

 

Also the DMCA would make it illegal for to break any copy protection to access those maps on the GPS.

 

Not so long ago you did have some rights to maps when they came pre loaded on a GPS. That changed recently when Garmin got a lot more strict on all their maps.

[+JSWilson64]

Don't blame Garmin, blame the hackers... The device restriction wasn't an issue until 2008 I believe it was.

It's the hackers fault that City Nav used to have 2 unlocks and now it only has one? I don't see the logic in that. More like Garmin realized they were losing money when people bought a second GPSr and were using the maps they had already bought, rather than buying a shiny new DVD for each receiver.

[+Red90]

It's the hackers fault that City Nav used to have 2 unlocks and now it only has one? I don't see the logic in that. More like Garmin realized they were losing money when people bought a second GPSr and were using the maps they had already bought, rather than buying a shiny new DVD for each receiver.

 

As we understand it, it was NavTech that required the change in policy to allow use on only one unit. I assume that the licensing fees that Garmin is paying to Navtech are on a per unit basis.

[+RRLover]

It's the hackers fault that City Nav used to have 2 unlocks and now it only has one? I don't see the logic in that. More like Garmin realized they were losing money when people bought a second GPSr and were using the maps they had already bought, rather than buying a shiny new DVD for each receiver.

 

As we understand it, it was NavTech that required the change in policy to allow use on only one unit. I assume that the licensing fees that Garmin is paying to Navtech are on a per unit basis.

I concur :

Navtech are like the 'Pusher-man' get ya hooked, then up the ante, but what can ya do?

Ya wanna play? . . . Ya gotta pay!

 

Norm

Edited April 7, 2008 by RRLover

[+CacheARRRS]

yeah it sucks. so does paying $8 for a beer at the ball game, or $35 to get popcorn and soda for the movies, or $49.95 for an oil change at the dealership that is needed to keep your extended warranty.

 

You just have to decide if it is worth the investment to you. Not everyone values everything the same. The cost is what it is. No matter how much we hate it, it is a set-in-stone constant. Some people will never use the maps on their PC, some will use them even more on the GPS. Some people just want the 400t on the sticker instead of the 300. (bigger is better!)

 

So is having a beer at a ball game, or a movie date with my wife, or piece of mind for my car worth the price? It is to me. Maybe not to you. But that is what makes life a fun ride.

 

 

P.S. Sorry to get all philosophical, but I haven't slept in like two days, and I just watched Karate Kid....

[+Bazzer]

You can pay an upgrade free for the new maps, same as OEM navigation on vehicles for example.

 

To answer the original question...

 

The simple answer is that the PC version isn't included with the device. Can you use MapSource to add waypoints and other information, sure you can... you just won't have the nice looking maps on your PC unless you buy them. If you upgrade your device down the road you can pay for a second unlock code at a reduced rate ($75 I think is is).

 

Don't blame Garmin, blame the hackers... The device restriction wasn't an issue until 2008 I believe it was.

But I'm not wanting to use TOPO or CITY NAV with any other unit, merely to plan a route on a decent size screen and download it to the unit. With a SD Card I can plug it into any Garmin Unit and use it. So why can't I plug it into the SD Slot on my PC and view it with Mapsource.

 

Barry

[MtnHermit]

But I'm not wanting to use TOPO or CITY NAV with any other unit, merely to plan a route on a decent size screen and download it to the unit. With a SD Card I can plug it into any Garmin Unit and use it. So why can't I plug it into the SD Slot on my PC and view it with Mapsource.

Barry,

 

Because Garmin didn't invent your PC, only your GPS. Once the software is on your PC, it's out of Garmin's copyright control. In this case, the very fact that the PC is so universal, prevents Garmin from offering a GPS and PC viewing solution. Them's the breaks.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

But I'm not wanting to use TOPO or CITY NAV with any other unit, merely to plan a route on a decent size screen and download it to the unit. With a SD Card I can plug it into any Garmin Unit and use it. So why can't I plug it into the SD Slot on my PC and view it with Mapsource.

Then you should have purchased the maps on disk instead of on the preloaded card. This is the license agreement that you AGREED to when you purchased the card. Simple searching on these forums and on Garmin's website would have provided you with a wealth of information BEFORE you made your purchase.

 

The purchase options are ... (this is by no means a comprehensive list)

 

1. Preloaded card - advantages: no unlock codes so they can be used with ANY compatible GPS unit and you don't have to deal with the "hassle" of loading the maps yourself from a computer - disadvantages: you can't use them with your computer, you can't copy them, you can't load anything else to the card.

 

2. DVD/CD - advantages: you can use them with a computer, you can load only the segments you want (useful for units with limited internal memory) - disadvantages: you have to be computer proficient enough to load the maps to the card yourself, for TOPO the map segments are small so you can only load a maximum of 2025 segments to the card, for maps that use unlock codes (like City Navigator), you can only use the maps with a single GPS unit and once the code is used, you can't use it again and must purchase another code to unlock the maps to another GPS unit

 

Either way, YOU MAKE THE CHOICE when you purchase the map.s

[QuigleyJones]

You can always borrow/download the CD from someone and install it on your PC.

[Motorcycle_Mama]

Which, of course, would likely also be a violation of the EULA.

[+IvorBigun]

Which, of course, would likely also be a violation of the EULA.

not quite off topic

 

I aggree the maps should be readable on the PC

I have Toppo UK v2 cost me £100 but I can not zoom fully in to see it in detail yet I can on my device ????

silly Makes planning so much more difficult for multicahes

 

Also WHY are digital maps more expensive than paper the production cost are minimal and they can be easily updated

 

eg a Road atlas of UK about £6 a digital map £100

 

I guess in time the prices will indeed come down like the early sat navs but I think because they are new we are being charged a premium

[+Prime Suspect]

Also WHY are digital maps more expensive than paper the production cost are minimal and they can be easily updated

 

eg a Road atlas of UK about £6 a digital map £100

 

Because they're far more useful. Ask your paper map the driving distance between two intersections, and it's not going to give you an answer. Ask it to give you the shortest distance to the nearest hospital, and you're not going to get anything back. Ask your paper map where the closest gas station is, and you're out of luck.

 

Cost is not determined by raw materials, but by what the general public will pay. Don't they teach basic economics any more?

[+IvorBigun]

Also WHY are digital maps more expensive than paper the production cost are minimal and they can be easily updated

 

eg a Road atlas of UK about £6 a digital map £100

 

Because they're far more useful. Ask your paper map the driving distance between two intersections, and it's not going to give you an answer. Ask it to give you the shortest distance to the nearest hospital, and you're not going to get anything back. Ask your paper map where the closest gas station is, and you're out of luck.

 

Cost is not determined by raw materials, but by what the general public will pay. Don't they teach basic economics any more?

you aggree lol

thats what I was saying its not what it csts to produce but how much they can get out of us

the only thing is they must come down in price at some point

my 1st mobile phone £2500 red led display size of a brick 4 hour battery I can get a better one now for £39 and in colour would go on a key ring last a week on a charge